I haven't actually read this thread in it's entirety, though the fact that it is five pages long indicates to me that the topic has probably progressed a lot more than what I'm going to respond to here. I'll probably read later but for now I'll respond to the OP.
I tend not to like the word 'misogyny' in feminist language because it seems to me that this word is more or less used, not to identify actual misogyny, but rather to shame dissenters of the other side of the debate.
Making the assumption that a facing a girl in a game will be easy doesn't actually represent a case of actual misogyny, that is, an oppression or hatred of women in some way - but rather something a lot less sinister; a stupid assumption based on a stereotype.
Now before I go any further, I haven't actually checked out the blog, but I am planning to. I'm first going to post my thoughts here, then read what this person has to say and then I'll post my thoughts about that. However, for my purposes here, I'm just going to respond to the OP, like I've already said.
Anyway, the paragraph in question in the OP from that blog seems rather silly. Now I can understand feeling uncomfortable for sticking out in a crowd, but she makes it sounds as though this is the crowd's fault and it isn't. She just made an assumption based on how she felt about the crowd. Perhaps she could have walked in and enjoyed whatever it was that she was going to in the first place. I don't think that men are by nature, unwelcoming.
But now she'll never know. If she had walked in there and then experienced situations which made her uncomfortable, I might have something more to say about this topic - but she didn't. So there really isn't much more to say other than just that.
I've kind of 'retired' from MTG (I.E. sold my MTG collection to pay for my wedding) but when I played, I played in a few different gaming stores and both had a small amount of women who played compared to men. In one store there were about two girls that played regularly and the other had one girl that played regularly. I've played against them before and I had no problems and I've never witnessed anything that I would describe as sexists behavior towards any of them and they never said anything that I'm aware of.
So at least in my area and when I played I did not see anything that I could categorize as a problem, rather I think that more men were drawn to playing MTG than women. If I had to as to reasons why, I would say that it's probably because the game itself is marketed more towards men and that it's men who are the ones buying the product more often.
I think that if more women played MTG, then we might see a change in the way that the game is marketed.
Is this a problem though? I don't think so, rather I just think that in some cases sometimes one gender is more attracted to X than the other is.
I've only had a few problems at casual MTG tournaments with sexual harassment and guys asking me out, but generally everyone at the tournament is cool. Then again, I prefer the company of males over females.
I've encountered more sexism and disgusting things at YGO tournaments. I was called the "Yu-Gi-Ho" (because I'm female), and some dude at a SJC commented on my "honky tonk badonkadonk." Also, an 8 year old showed me his explicit picture collection on his iPod and I was wondering where the hell his parents were.
I can't speak for anyone else's experience, just my own.
I have two female friends who have played outside our "kitchen table" and both experienced creeps or ********s on a semi-regular basis. Which makes since I don't see why M:tG should be any different than any other community filled with geeks who take their bitternesses or baggage out on strangers.
Betteridge's rule of headlines still applies, Renasce. And as I said when I first saw that lovely bit of clickbait, "But none of that's relevant because OP's obviously in favor of incest. I say so because social justice bloggers tend to post on Tumblr, Tumblr has a lot of Supernatural fans, and a subsection of Supernatural fans ship Sam/Dean. That makes exactly as much sense as OP's post."
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
So over the weekend me and a female friend made up a team for a game tournament. It wasn't magic but I assure you there's plenty of overlap between the two games. Anyways this anecdote is basically about how she was hit on by one player (who kept trying to plug a different lgs to only her despite being told several times she doesn't own the products and if anyone would be buying or going it would be me not her) and another fellow (of the roughly 24 present, including ourselves) who was playing next to us and bumped into her far too many times than coincidence would allow. To me this is strong evidence for the type of mysongany that's rampant in these gaming scenes.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
So over the weekend me and a female friend made up a team for a game tournament. It wasn't magic but I assure you there's plenty of overlap between the two games. Anyways this anecdote is basically about how she was hit on by one player (who kept trying to plug a different lgs to only her despite being told several times she doesn't own the products and if anyone would be buying or going it would be me not her) and another fellow (of the roughly 24 present, including ourselves) who was playing next to us and bumped into her far too many times than coincidence would allow. To me this is strong evidence for the type of mysongany that's rampant in these gaming scenes.
The notion that hitting on women is misogyny is almost a contradiction in terms, but if it weren't, we'd all be in trouble -- because that's how the human species propagates itself.
As I said earlier in the thread, male nerds as a demographic tend not to be suave Casanovas. They don't have a lot of experience approaching women and are not always aware of the subtle nonverbal cues that disinterested women give. Interpreting this particular failure mode of male nerd behavior as hatred for or animus against women is not only ludicrous -- it's singularly unhelpful. Instead of helping male nerds channel their healthy and normal desires in a socially responsible and appropriate way, you're demonizing and otherizing them.
When you visit another country, you don't immediately demand they change all their cultural rules and customs to suit you, do you? Why, then, do women and other late entrants to nerd culture and other subcultures feel entitled to do precisely that? Women entering nerd culture should be prepared for the social inexperience of male nerds and understand how to gently but clearly rebuff unwanted advances.
I'm extremely uncomfortable with the characterization of women as foreigners in "nerd culture". If you want to complain about "otherizing", I'm not sure how much more clear of an example you could ask for.
I'm extremely uncomfortable with the characterization of women as foreigners in "nerd culture".
Not specifically women; this analysis could apply to anyone -- say, e.g., Halo-playing jocks back when that was a thing. And not foreigners either; late entrants. The point is that there is an established culture present and so, as someone entering that culture, you have to be aware of its customs and practices.
And, indeed, it's almost always been the case in my experience that when an entrant (regardless of personal characteristics) adapts him or herself to the cultural customs of various nerd and gaming subcultures, it doesn't take long for that person to assimilate.
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A limit of time is fixed for thee
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
So the "established culture" is a culture of making inappropriate advances to female strangers? And women can't go play a card game without entering this culture? Because women as a class are "late entrants"?
So the "established culture" is a culture of making inappropriate advances to female strangers? And women can't go play a card game without entering this culture? Because women as a class are "late entrants"?
No. What is wrong with you? This is a maliciously uncharitable interpretation of what I've said.
- Anyone who is entering or participating a different culture must realize that there is such a culture. It has customs, practices, demography, and typical membership. From this, one can infer what to expect when traversing the culture.
- We may apply this general truth to the specific area of gaming culture and female entrants, as follows:
- On average, the demographic of nerd culture skews male, with above-average Aspie tendencies, low number of lifetime romantic/sexual partners, and generally less-than-average experience and success with the opposite sex. One can therefore expect that, on average, a member of this culture is less likely to be primed to romantic social cues of interest and disinterest, more likely to make advances that are perceived as inappropriate, and more likely to fail to make an advance when it is called for.
- Thus, a woman, when walking among this particular subculture, should expect that when she receives male interest, it will not be as competently expressed as she might expect when moving among the broader surrounding culture.
- It is not appropriate, realistic, or even possible to ask that the culture change to accommodate the entrant. You simply can't demand or order that male nerds become good with women. Nor can you exclude them from the dance of human sexuality by forbidding them to approach women or express their desires.
- This leaves a number of choices on the table, by far the least productive of which is to demonize the culture as a whole because its members are not up to snuff on the finer points of romance. You're not going to improve the dating IQ of the average male nerd by writing Marxist rants about nerd misogyny on Tumblr.
The notion that hitting on women is misogyny is almost a contradiction in terms, but if it weren't, we'd all be in trouble -- because that's how the human species propagates itself.
It's misogyny because when someone tells you they're not interested you should stop.
When you visit another country, you don't immediately demand they change all their cultural rules and customs to suit you, do you? Why, then, do women and other late entrants to nerd culture and other subcultures feel entitled to do precisely that? Women entering nerd culture should be prepared for the social inexperience of male nerds and understand how to gently but clearly rebuff unwanted advances.
I like how not being the target of unwanted sexual advances is somehow destroying nerd culture. That's pretty insulting that you think nerds get a pass on basic decency because they picked up the dice first.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
What makes the men who make inappropriate advances the "culture" of that store, while the woman is the "entrant"?
In general the woman needn't be the entrant; she just is in this particular instance, because that is how LordOwlingtonIII described the situation. Generally speaking, the subculture in question almost certainly also includes women. Those women who have already assimilated into the culture are not entrants. Female gamers are a thing.
If your notion here is that somehow I am defining the culture to be exclusive of women, or that all women are de facto entrants, then you're once again maliciously misinterpreting me.
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A limit of time is fixed for thee
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
I don't see where LordOwlington describes the woman as the entrant. We know nothing about how long any of the people involved have been playing that game or attending that store. So, again, what makes the woman the entrant?
Let me offer an alternative cultural analysis:
We all live in a culture in which we respect people's personal space. The man making inappropriate advances, by choosing to go outside into society and interact with people, is an entrant into that established culture. It is therefore his responsibility to adjust to those cultural norms.
I'm extremely uncomfortable with the characterization of women as foreigners in "nerd culture". If you want to complain about "otherizing", I'm not sure how much more clear of an example you could ask for.
I think you're absolutely right, and because you're right I think Crashing00 is right. Women are foreigners in nerd culture. Most FLGSes are overwhelmingly male, and some of those men don't associate much with women outside the store either. That's a descriptive fact, even if not how it ought to be.
And that's where I think Crashing00 goes wrong, because that's not how it ought to be, and we don't need to accept it. Objectionable behaviors towards women aren't neutral "cultural rules and customs". There is a difference between going to France and demanding people speak English for your benefit, and going to France and demanding people not treat you like pond scum. People are in fact entitled to basic human respect, and if a culture is not extending that to some people, then that culture is in the wrong.
But at the same time, Crashing00 is correct to object to LordOwlington's characterization of the problem as "misogyny". That's a lazy label to stick on it, and it gets us no closer to a solution. Correct prescription requires correct diagnosis - we need to understand where this behavior is coming from in order to fix it. And in this case, it is probably inaccurate to say this behavior comes from hatred of women, and more accurate to say it comes from poor socialization and inexperience. That doesn't change the fact that there is a problem, but it certainly changes the nature of the problem.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
It is quite the impressive bit of clickbait, though, isn't it? It hits almost all the notes, it just needs to be in list form and mention a celebrity and there you go.
Still, I cannot help but be annoyed by the blatant misrepresentation of both the game and the community presented in the piece.
I'm kind of inured to that, though. But you had to like my use of insane troll logic.
Misogyny among nerds is a problem, though. I'll be the first to admit it. Mostly it's nerds blaming women for their own lack of confidence, i.e. the 'friend zone'.
(Meanwhile, we just had an Uncharted Realms about a transgender character.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
What makes the men who make inappropriate advances the "culture" of that store, while the woman is the "entrant"?
I think the point that he's making is that since the typical "nerd" doesn't typically get the opportunity to interact with the opposite sex, that there is no culture in that area one way or the other.
And that's where I think Crashing00 goes wrong, because that's not how it ought to be, and we don't need to accept it. Objectionable behaviors towards women aren't neutral "cultural rules and customs". There is a difference between going to France and demanding people speak English for your benefit, and going to France and demanding people not treat you like pond scum. People are in fact entitled to basic human respect, and if a culture is not extending that to some people, then that culture is in the wrong.
here's a more accurate analogy
There's a difference between going to India and demanding that people speak English for your benefit, and going to India and demanding that people stop trying to sell things on you.
(yes, I know that they already speak English in India)
But at the same time, Crashing00 is correct to object to LordOwlington's characterization of the problem as "misogyny". That's a lazy label to stick on it, and it gets us no closer to a solution. Correct prescription requires correct diagnosis - we need to understand where this behavior is coming from in order to fix it. And in this case, it is probably inaccurate to say this behavior comes from hatred of women, and more accurate to say it comes from poor socialization and inexperience. That doesn't change the fact that there is a problem, but it certainly changes the nature of the problem.
If that was true, then why don't we see the same behavior from gay or bisexual members of the culture?
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
I think the point that he's making is that since the typical "nerd" doesn't typically get the opportunity to interact with the opposite sex, that there is no culture in that area one way or the other.
The "hitting on etiquette" comes from you.
The "typical" woman doesn't like repeated inappropriate violation of her personal space. But apparently that doesn't count as a "culture".
I think the point that he's making is that since the typical "nerd" doesn't typically get the opportunity to interact with the opposite sex, that there is no culture in that area one way or the other.
The "hitting on etiquette" comes from you.
The "typical" woman doesn't like repeated inappropriate violation of her personal space. But apparently that doesn't count as a "culture".
I think the point that he's making is that since the typical "nerd" doesn't typically get the opportunity to interact with the opposite sex, that there is no culture in that area one way or the other.
The culture with the "hitting on etiquette" comes from you.
So, if you accept that the culture in which we don't make inappropriate violations of personal space is just as much a valid culture, isn't the man making those inappropriate advances bound by the same cultural analysis to respect that and adjust his behavior accordingly?
So, if you accept that the culture in which we don't make inappropriate violations of personal space is just as much a valid culture, isn't the man making those inappropriate advances bound by the same cultural analysis to respect that and adjust his behavior accordingly?
What's so sacrosanct about personal space?
What's this violation of personal space you speak of in the first place? I assume you're eluding to the guy "bumped into her far too many times than coincidence would allow.", since the other anecdote can describe an interaction that can take place across an incredibly large "space"
I can't tell if the number of times that the guy bumped into her is 4 or 40. It's hard to tell from LordOwlingtonIII's description of it.
I also have no idea of how compact the space was. Sometimes there's as little as 3 feet between tables, where, once you add chairs and people sitting there, it's incredibly hard to not bump into people.
Irrelevant. We're analyzing the situation through Crashing's proposed cultural lens. Respect of personal space is undeniably an element of our culture, and that's all that counts.
If I go to a rave dressed in a tucked-in button down shirt with a tie and slacks, I shouldn't be surprised or upset if people make fun of the way I'm dressed, try to sell me drugs, or bump into me when they're moshing.
If a half-naked person covered in glowsticks and rolling balls on ecstasy walks into my law firm office, that person shouldn't be surprised when I ask them to leave or I call security.
When you go to a place with a particular culture, you shouldn't expect things to go well for you if you're not conforming to the norms and expectations of that culture. The problem is with you, not the culture.
On the other hand, if you do conform to the expectations of the culture but you're still ostracized because of something beyond your control (your sex/race/age/appearance/etc) then we have a problem with the culture, not with you.
I tend not to like the word 'misogyny' in feminist language because it seems to me that this word is more or less used, not to identify actual misogyny, but rather to shame dissenters of the other side of the debate.
Making the assumption that a facing a girl in a game will be easy doesn't actually represent a case of actual misogyny, that is, an oppression or hatred of women in some way - but rather something a lot less sinister; a stupid assumption based on a stereotype.
Now before I go any further, I haven't actually checked out the blog, but I am planning to. I'm first going to post my thoughts here, then read what this person has to say and then I'll post my thoughts about that. However, for my purposes here, I'm just going to respond to the OP, like I've already said.
Anyway, the paragraph in question in the OP from that blog seems rather silly. Now I can understand feeling uncomfortable for sticking out in a crowd, but she makes it sounds as though this is the crowd's fault and it isn't. She just made an assumption based on how she felt about the crowd. Perhaps she could have walked in and enjoyed whatever it was that she was going to in the first place. I don't think that men are by nature, unwelcoming.
But now she'll never know. If she had walked in there and then experienced situations which made her uncomfortable, I might have something more to say about this topic - but she didn't. So there really isn't much more to say other than just that.
I've kind of 'retired' from MTG (I.E. sold my MTG collection to pay for my wedding) but when I played, I played in a few different gaming stores and both had a small amount of women who played compared to men. In one store there were about two girls that played regularly and the other had one girl that played regularly. I've played against them before and I had no problems and I've never witnessed anything that I would describe as sexists behavior towards any of them and they never said anything that I'm aware of.
So at least in my area and when I played I did not see anything that I could categorize as a problem, rather I think that more men were drawn to playing MTG than women. If I had to as to reasons why, I would say that it's probably because the game itself is marketed more towards men and that it's men who are the ones buying the product more often.
I think that if more women played MTG, then we might see a change in the way that the game is marketed.
Is this a problem though? I don't think so, rather I just think that in some cases sometimes one gender is more attracted to X than the other is.
I've encountered more sexism and disgusting things at YGO tournaments. I was called the "Yu-Gi-Ho" (because I'm female), and some dude at a SJC commented on my "honky tonk badonkadonk." Also, an 8 year old showed me his explicit picture collection on his iPod and I was wondering where the hell his parents were.
I can't speak for anyone else's experience, just my own.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
On phasing:
The notion that hitting on women is misogyny is almost a contradiction in terms, but if it weren't, we'd all be in trouble -- because that's how the human species propagates itself.
As I said earlier in the thread, male nerds as a demographic tend not to be suave Casanovas. They don't have a lot of experience approaching women and are not always aware of the subtle nonverbal cues that disinterested women give. Interpreting this particular failure mode of male nerd behavior as hatred for or animus against women is not only ludicrous -- it's singularly unhelpful. Instead of helping male nerds channel their healthy and normal desires in a socially responsible and appropriate way, you're demonizing and otherizing them.
When you visit another country, you don't immediately demand they change all their cultural rules and customs to suit you, do you? Why, then, do women and other late entrants to nerd culture and other subcultures feel entitled to do precisely that? Women entering nerd culture should be prepared for the social inexperience of male nerds and understand how to gently but clearly rebuff unwanted advances.
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
Not specifically women; this analysis could apply to anyone -- say, e.g., Halo-playing jocks back when that was a thing. And not foreigners either; late entrants. The point is that there is an established culture present and so, as someone entering that culture, you have to be aware of its customs and practices.
And, indeed, it's almost always been the case in my experience that when an entrant (regardless of personal characteristics) adapts him or herself to the cultural customs of various nerd and gaming subcultures, it doesn't take long for that person to assimilate.
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
No. What is wrong with you? This is a maliciously uncharitable interpretation of what I've said.
- Anyone who is entering or participating a different culture must realize that there is such a culture. It has customs, practices, demography, and typical membership. From this, one can infer what to expect when traversing the culture.
- We may apply this general truth to the specific area of gaming culture and female entrants, as follows:
- On average, the demographic of nerd culture skews male, with above-average Aspie tendencies, low number of lifetime romantic/sexual partners, and generally less-than-average experience and success with the opposite sex. One can therefore expect that, on average, a member of this culture is less likely to be primed to romantic social cues of interest and disinterest, more likely to make advances that are perceived as inappropriate, and more likely to fail to make an advance when it is called for.
- Thus, a woman, when walking among this particular subculture, should expect that when she receives male interest, it will not be as competently expressed as she might expect when moving among the broader surrounding culture.
- It is not appropriate, realistic, or even possible to ask that the culture change to accommodate the entrant. You simply can't demand or order that male nerds become good with women. Nor can you exclude them from the dance of human sexuality by forbidding them to approach women or express their desires.
- This leaves a number of choices on the table, by far the least productive of which is to demonize the culture as a whole because its members are not up to snuff on the finer points of romance. You're not going to improve the dating IQ of the average male nerd by writing Marxist rants about nerd misogyny on Tumblr.
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
It's misogyny because when someone tells you they're not interested you should stop.
I like how not being the target of unwanted sexual advances is somehow destroying nerd culture. That's pretty insulting that you think nerds get a pass on basic decency because they picked up the dice first.
In general the woman needn't be the entrant; she just is in this particular instance, because that is how LordOwlingtonIII described the situation. Generally speaking, the subculture in question almost certainly also includes women. Those women who have already assimilated into the culture are not entrants. Female gamers are a thing.
If your notion here is that somehow I am defining the culture to be exclusive of women, or that all women are de facto entrants, then you're once again maliciously misinterpreting me.
Which if thou dost not use for clearing away the clouds from thy mind
It will go and thou wilt go, never to return.
Let me offer an alternative cultural analysis:
We all live in a culture in which we respect people's personal space. The man making inappropriate advances, by choosing to go outside into society and interact with people, is an entrant into that established culture. It is therefore his responsibility to adjust to those cultural norms.
And that's where I think Crashing00 goes wrong, because that's not how it ought to be, and we don't need to accept it. Objectionable behaviors towards women aren't neutral "cultural rules and customs". There is a difference between going to France and demanding people speak English for your benefit, and going to France and demanding people not treat you like pond scum. People are in fact entitled to basic human respect, and if a culture is not extending that to some people, then that culture is in the wrong.
But at the same time, Crashing00 is correct to object to LordOwlington's characterization of the problem as "misogyny". That's a lazy label to stick on it, and it gets us no closer to a solution. Correct prescription requires correct diagnosis - we need to understand where this behavior is coming from in order to fix it. And in this case, it is probably inaccurate to say this behavior comes from hatred of women, and more accurate to say it comes from poor socialization and inexperience. That doesn't change the fact that there is a problem, but it certainly changes the nature of the problem.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I'm kind of inured to that, though. But you had to like my use of insane troll logic.
Misogyny among nerds is a problem, though. I'll be the first to admit it. Mostly it's nerds blaming women for their own lack of confidence, i.e. the 'friend zone'.
(Meanwhile, we just had an Uncharted Realms about a transgender character.)
On phasing:
I think the point that he's making is that since the typical "nerd" doesn't typically get the opportunity to interact with the opposite sex, that there is no culture in that area one way or the other.
The "hitting on etiquette" comes from you.
here's a more accurate analogy
There's a difference between going to India and demanding that people speak English for your benefit, and going to India and demanding that people stop trying to sell things on you.
(yes, I know that they already speak English in India)
If that was true, then why don't we see the same behavior from gay or bisexual members of the culture?
The "typical" woman doesn't like repeated inappropriate violation of her personal space. But apparently that doesn't count as a "culture".
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I think the point that he's making is that since the typical "nerd" doesn't typically get the opportunity to interact with the opposite sex, that there is no culture in that area one way or the other.
The culture with the "hitting on etiquette" comes from you.
What's so sacrosanct about personal space?
What's this violation of personal space you speak of in the first place? I assume you're eluding to the guy "bumped into her far too many times than coincidence would allow.", since the other anecdote can describe an interaction that can take place across an incredibly large "space"
I can't tell if the number of times that the guy bumped into her is 4 or 40. It's hard to tell from LordOwlingtonIII's description of it.
I also have no idea of how compact the space was. Sometimes there's as little as 3 feet between tables, where, once you add chairs and people sitting there, it's incredibly hard to not bump into people.
If a half-naked person covered in glowsticks and rolling balls on ecstasy walks into my law firm office, that person shouldn't be surprised when I ask them to leave or I call security.
When you go to a place with a particular culture, you shouldn't expect things to go well for you if you're not conforming to the norms and expectations of that culture. The problem is with you, not the culture.
On the other hand, if you do conform to the expectations of the culture but you're still ostracized because of something beyond your control (your sex/race/age/appearance/etc) then we have a problem with the culture, not with you.