So, I was looking up articles and statements about GenCon this year, and I ran across Go Make Me a Sandwich, a feminist blog written by a gamer woman who has some things to say about gaming and GenCon in general. For the most part I think she's a little more sane than your typical tumblr SJW, but she seems to devolve into the same sorts of attacks at times.
Of particular interest was the following passage:
Quote from wundergeek »
For that matter, one of the key points in the article is just the feeling of looking around at a crowd of 50,000+ people and seeing almost no faces like your own and the pain of that. AND I GET THAT. I mean, Jesus. I stayed out of the CCG room for pretty much that reason, because it was a literal SEA OF DUDES and that sort of an atmosphere is just too unwelcoming.
Edit: Note, she is not referring to her own article in this comment, but to a related article about gencon on TOR.COM
On the one hand, she hasn't identified anything in particular, other than its a bunch of guys, that made it "unwelcoming", on the other hand she obviously felt that as a woman she was unwelcome in the Magic area.
So, the question up for debate is:
Are there significant elements of the Magic Community that are unwelcoming to women, and what if anything should we do about them?
From my perspective (keeping in mind that I didn't actually enter the magic area at GenCon other than to walk through it to my Doomtown tournament), the only problem area I've identified that does represent real misogyny is the all too common assumption "She's a girl, it'll be an easy match up". I admit to have fallen for that line of thought all too often, and frequently been shown just ow wrong it was. On the other hand, though, as long as we're not expressing that line of thought in any manner, it shouldn't lead to people feeling unwelcome. Further, we can't really change that its a bunch of guys, so the male-female ratio is only going to approach 1 as more women start playing.
Long story short, I don't think the sheer number of males playing is a misogyny issue, and I don't think its something that represents a problem with the community.
Thoughts?
Keep in mind, the intent here is to discuss issues in the community of players. If there are sexism/racism issues involved in the game itself, or its marketing that is a separate topic.
So men and woman have different interests. What exactly is bad about that. God knows I cannot fathom why a person would 400 dollars for a pair of designer shoes but so what.
She seems actually a bit of a sexist. Staying out of a place because it has a "sea of dudes". So what makes a sea of dudes something to avoid?
Are there significant elements of the Magic Community that are unwelcoming to women, and what if anything should we do about them?
I do not think there is. Many MTG players would actually be thrilled to see a woman in real life and know they really do exist.
I'm not really sure what can be done about it. I tried talking to MaRo about it the one time I met him and was able to ask "any question I wanted." He seemed to feel that it was more of an individual game store problem. That lots of stores are more welcoming to girls, and many are not. Having been to lots and lots of stores, I can agree with that to a certain extent.
One store I went to in Maryland -for example- was run by a female painter and about half the people in attendance were girls. (As you might imagine, the store layout was aesthetically pleasing) The next town over, there was one of the most "generic" stores I had ever been to. It was probably 3 times as big and there wasn't a girl in the place.
But, I think the atmosphere of game stories is only part of the problem, and having marching orders from the mothership could help things.
Look at the art for the new Gisa and Geralf (commander spoilers), compare which one was made to look attractive and which one remembered to wear work appropriate attire. Now tell me that that doesn't encourage certain types of players.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
Look at the art for the new Gisa and Geralf (commander spoilers), compare which one was made to look attractive and which one remembered to wear work appropriate attire. Now tell me that that doesn't encourage certain types of players.
Keep in mind, the intent here is to discuss issues in the community of players. If there are sexism/racism issues involved in the game itself, or its marketing that is a separate topic.
I get your point, but there's nothing *we* can do about that, other than complain. The purpose of this discussion is to determine 1) is there something wrong with the community, and 2) what can *we* change about the community. Not what can WotC change.
Sexism and Misogyny is a problem with nerd culture in general, not just Magic. It's not really hard to see why, nerd culture tends to have pretty stereotypical views about women, for a variety of reasons, and nerd culture tends to reflect that in a lot of ways. The oversexualizing of women in artwork is one, as LordOwlingtonIII mentioned. The most common is 'nice guy syndrome', where young guys believe that being 'nice' to women should entitle them to dates or being given a chance. The best description I've heard from it is that they feel like if they put enough friendship coins in a girlfriend should pop out. And if the girl isn't interested in them romantically, they've been 'friend zoned', as if the girl is at fault for doing it to them. Or guys will put them on a pedestal and follow the nerdy girl around like she's a celebrity. There are a whole range of stereotypical attitudes towards women, which range from harmless to toxic, but which ultimately all treat them more like objects than people. That's disconcerting for someone to have to deal with.
There are a lot of issues were this stuff presents: women are assumed to be 'booth babes' and still get sexually harassed at conventions, they have to deal with people sexualizing them when they're prominent in the industry (look at the crap Jade Raymond from Ubisoft has had to deal with from the fanbase), and even if it isn't necessarily negative, no one wants to get hit on by a ton of awkward nerds when they just want to play a game. This crap happens here on MTGS, where I've been embarassed to be part of a community as it's scared of women who wanted to be a part of it. In general, women don't like it known they're women when dealing with nerd communities online, generally because all the creeps pop out of the woodwork.
A lot of this is why it's disconcerting when confronted with a 'sausage fest', because even if 99% of the guys are cool, that last 1% will still generally ruin the experience. That's why it's important for some women to see that there are other people there who share their experiences and know what it's like. If it's just one woman in a group of guys, unless all the guys are extremely chill, someone is guaranteed to make it weird.
The experience can vary, but basically just ask a woman who is immersed in the gamer culture what it's like. Whether it's guy friends who are only really there because they want to date them, or online games where everyone is trying to hit on you or get pictures of your boobs when they find out you're a woman, or skeevy guys at conventions who think women who cosplay want to be touched, it's still there and it's far more common than it should be. When women have these experiences, they tend to stay away from situations where this crap can happen, which in turn leads to fewer women in the community.
So IS there an issue? Absolutely. Is there something we can do about? Yes and no. We can't outright fix it, but we can call out guys who perpetuate stereotypes or who make gaming experiences uncomfortable for women. They're not villains, but they do need to be told to back off, hanging around the one girl who showed up the LGS the whole time isn't cool.
So men and woman have different interests. What exactly is bad about that. God knows I cannot fathom why a person would 400 dollars for a pair of designer shoes but so what.
The thing is, they really don't. There are a lot of studies out there that suggest girls want to play with action figures just as much as guys do, and that women represent a huge chunk of nerd culture. They even represent, like, 40% of gamers. So it's not that 'women have different interests', because a lot of the socialization about what girls and boys should like has broken down.
Having been to magic nights and been in car clubs years back before I had kids, I see them as much the same;
Girls are less common in both, but no less willing and no less talented > seen many a chick who could drive a car sideways just as good as anyone else.
But with Magic, the wierdo nerdy's can ruin it for some of the girls....
Here is the issue I have with the discussion... clearly sexist people exist. Some non-zero percentage of men are going to be ass hats towards women and that is probably never going to change. (the overall percentage should but it will never be zero, at least not in my lifetime). Given that truth, we are now also supposed to assume that because the group known as "magic players" happens to include some number of people that also exist in the group "men that are sexist" there is a problem? How is this a nerd culture problem? What are we supposed to do? Weed out the sexist guys and tell them they can't play Magic because they oggled their female opponent or said "I can't believe a lost to a girl!".
Yes, sexist guys exist... yes they play magic. What's the issue?
The thing is, they really don't. There are a lot of studies out there that suggest girls want to play with action figures just as much as guys do, and that women represent a huge chunk of nerd culture. They even represent, like, 40% of gamers. So it's not that 'women have different interests', because a lot of the socialization about what girls and boys should like has broken down.
I agree with everything you said, and I just wanted to further comment on this part.
I do feel that there is a difference between the way men and women think. On average, brain chemistry of the genders is different,[1] and that must lead to general variations in thought. However, people seem to think those variations are explained by gender stereotypes in preferences, and that's simply wrong. Most gender stereotypes are social constructs and have nothing do with actual inherent physical and mental differences between the genders. So, while I do think there is a difference, there is little science to backup how exactly that difference manifests itself, since our society imposes all these extra variables making it very hard to determine what is do to nature and what is do to nurture.
tl;dr:
There is a massive difference between what people "think" women "should" like, and what women do like.
Do you have a source on this? I'd like to know where and how it was administered before I comment.
Sorry, I should have included where it came from. Context is -of course- very important. It was a result of this poll. So, -of course- other factors are likely increasing the count of white males.
Do you have a source on this? I'd like to know where and how it was administered before I comment.
Sorry, I should have included where it came from. Context is -of course- very important. It was a result of this poll. So, -of course- other factors are likely increasing the count of white males.
So it was an informal poll on Reddit's Magic the Gathering sub?
The oversexualizing of women in artwork is one, as LordOwlingtonIII mentioned.
In some games - D&D springs to mind - the response to this complaint has been women fighters in reasonable armor. But in others - including, to some extent, Magic - the art has gone the other way, evening out the imbalance by including more male cheese. Are both approaches appropriate, or only the first one?
The most common is 'nice guy syndrome', where young guys believe that being 'nice' to women should entitle them to dates or being given a chance. The best description I've heard from it is that they feel like if they put enough friendship coins in a girlfriend should pop out. And if the girl isn't interested in them romantically, they've been 'friend zoned', as if the girl is at fault for doing it to them.
I've always found this complaint really nebulous. Sure, if upon rejection a guy flies into a misogynistic rage and starts calling the girl a "*****" or whatever, that's really bad. Or if he persists to the point of harassment, that's bad too. But more often, when a guy talks about being "friend zoned", it's with regret and disappointment. And to me, that seems perfectly natural - should we expect people not to feel disappointed when the person they're romantically interested in does not reciprocate? Girls certainly get disappointed too. It's not a sexist male reaction; it's a human reaction. There's lots of real sexism out there, and all the crap you describe in the rest of your post I'm not quoting because I 100% agree with you. But when the awkward nerd is turned down and gets kind of mopey, interpreting that as part of the grand sexism narrative seems like an overreach.
That's not to say that awkward, unrequited attraction can't make a situation really uncomfortable. God knows enough sitcom episodes run on that premise. The problem, though, is the awkwardness, not sexism. Poorly socialized male nerds make some women uncomfortable (and, let's add, poorly socialized female nerds make some men uncomfortable), but they also make other members of their own sex uncomfortable, because they're poorly socialized nerds. Learning how to act in more acceptable ways will make the situation better all around. Nerd culture is traditionally the way it is because it's been a haven for the poorly socialized, a place where you won't be judged for your ratty neckbeard or your distinctive odor because everybody else has their own issues. I almost hate to ask it, but: is this tolerance really a good thing? Would it be cruel to hold ourselves to standards more similar to the outside world?
There are a lot of studies out there that suggest girls want to play with action figures just as much as guys do...
A devil's-advocate hypothesis springs immediately to mind: "Action figure" is just a euphemism for "doll" to sell them to boys. Saying that girls like playing with action figures may simply be saying that girls like playing with dolls. A follow-up study should focus on a more unambiguously masculine toy, like a truck or plane.
What are we supposed to do? Weed out the sexist guys and tell them they can't play Magic because they oggled their female opponent or said "I can't believe a lost to a girl!".
If we run a FLGS, then yes, I'd say that's exactly what we're supposed to do. Act like that, and you're no longer welcome in the store.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Look Jay I wouldn't be surprised if the statistics above are correct. I thought your post was poignant and spot on when it comes to sexual harassment and the way "nice guys" generally alienate woman and harbor a deep seeded misogyny. Then you wrote how 40% of gamers are women. I just don't believe that. The gamer/nerd community is very white/asian, very heterosexual, and VERY male. I think the problem of "magic culture" is that its hard to get a woman to do something that is male dominated. Lets say a woman did become interested in the game, she then goes online, goes to local tournaments, looks at the pro circuit, goes to her local game shop and sees no one like her. Even if everyone treated her as an equal, they wouldn't, it is very unpleasant to be the only female in a room of men. Go to your favorite sad dive bar, if there aren't any woman there at 9 odds are not that many will show up by midnight. Its uncomfortable, even without the undo attention. This is a self perpetuating problem for nerds and mtg, woman don't take part because they feel alienated because there are no woman.
I understand there is a change in the tides. While that 40% figure just sounds off more woman are showing up in online games, LARP events, and LGS. The problem is they are entering a very male community and if they aren't their with a boyfriend, they will be swarmed by geeky, awkward men. Now many gamer women are geeky and awkward as well, unfortunately some (mostly) younger women like the attention they get from being the only girl present (celebrity status). I feel that more are driven to stay online when it comes to gamer/nerd culture as it is simply easier. Even there I know many, probably most conceal their identities for a period of time at least. I used to be big on MTGNews and from what I remember a serious chunk of the "out" women were the kind who liked the attention, even had MTGNews "boyfriends". Most hid unless you knew them very well (e=I was a big colo poster and one of our best players was a woman, she kept that fact hidden to everyone who wasn't in our chat group). You can read articles on top of articles about the harassment women face via the anonymity of the internet once there gender is revealed, especially by younger guys playing computer games.
To me, it seems like more of a momentum problem. No one likes to be in the minority. Since girls generally didn't play Magic, girls don't start playing because they don't want to be "the only girl." Since the people that go to LGS to start are mainly male, the culture becomes more and more male. The social aspect makes people want to play with "like minded" people.
MaRo felt that this trend against girls was changing. He seemed to think young girls are playing more games on computers than used to play, since everyone is. He felt when those girls grew up they would naturally gravitate to more "traditional" games. He also mentioned that girls were only really absent at "high level play" and in causal play there was just about as many girls and boys. I felt he was overly optimistic, however, since he admitted there was no hard statistics to back his statement about casual play.
I will say this, my friend group from my hometown was a good mix of men and women. I'd say about 50/50. I have long since moved away, have not been part of that group for about 4 years. We are all 24-27. Recently, a lot of my friends from home got back into MTG. They only play when there are no women around, typically in the afternoon.
What are we supposed to do? Weed out the sexist guys and tell them they can't play Magic because they oggled their female opponent or said "I can't believe a lost to a girl!".
If we run a FLGS, then yes, I'd say that's exactly what we're supposed to do. Act like that, and you're no longer welcome in the store.
Is it also your position then that if someone is oggling a lady at the grocery store the store owner should throw that guy out? What about at a park? What if the guy is just staring blankly in her general direction and the lady just happens to think he's staring at her?
The most common is 'nice guy syndrome', where young guys believe that being 'nice' to women should entitle them to dates or being given a chance. The best description I've heard from it is that they feel like if they put enough friendship coins in a girlfriend should pop out. And if the girl isn't interested in them romantically, they've been 'friend zoned', as if the girl is at fault for doing it to them.
I've always found this complaint really nebulous. Sure, if upon rejection a guy flies into a misogynistic rage and starts calling the girl a "*****" or whatever, that's really bad. Or if he persists to the point of harassment, that's bad too. But more often, when a guy talks about being "friend zoned", it's with regret and disappointment. And to me, that seems perfectly natural - should we expect people not to feel disappointed when the person they're romantically interested in does not reciprocate? Girls certainly get disappointed too. It's not a sexist male reaction; it's a human reaction. There's lots of real sexism out there, and all the crap you describe in the rest of your post I'm not quoting because I 100% agree with you. But when the awkward nerd is turned down and gets kind of mopey, interpreting that as part of the grand sexism narrative seems like an overreach.
I may be quibbling here, because I do agree with the other parts of your post, but 'friend zoning' seems to me to be used as a verb - implying a deliberate act on the part of the woman, as opposed to a simple lack of interest. That's still making the woman the subject and the man the object. Whether it's with regret or rage, the onus is still being placed on the woman for not wanting a romantic relationship. "She friendzoned me" is different from "we're not compatible".
What are we supposed to do? Weed out the sexist guys and tell them they can't play Magic because they oggled their female opponent or said "I can't believe a lost to a girl!".
If we run a FLGS, then yes, I'd say that's exactly what we're supposed to do. Act like that, and you're no longer welcome in the store.
Is it also your position then that if someone is oggling a lady at the grocery store the store owner should throw that guy out? What about at a park? What if the guy is just staring blankly in her general direction and the lady just happens to think he's staring at her?
Ogling someone may be tricky to prove (unless they make some comment to go with it, or there's a pattern of complaints from women), but "I can't believe I lost to a girl" is easy.
In some games - D&D springs to mind - the response to this complaint has been women fighters in reasonable armor. But in others - including, to some extent, Magic - the art has gone the other way, evening out the imbalance by including more male cheese. Are both approaches appropriate, or only the first one?
Either is fine, I was talking about the general trend that dates back to the 30's and pulp novels, not just MTG.
But when the awkward nerd is turned down and gets kind of mopey, interpreting that as part of the grand sexism narrative seems like an overreach.
I don't mean to say that its straight up sexism (it isn't), but it's part of the culture that makes women shy away from male dominated events and there is certainly a small amount of objectification there. But when you think about it from the perspective of the woman, who suddenly finds that all her supposed friends disappear when she gets a boyfriend that isn't one of them. All of my female friends (including my wife) have had this experience with nerdy guys. They don't want to go to a game night at a LGS because inevitable some of the guys won't want to just be friends, or at the very least respect boundaries.
Nerd culture is traditionally the way it is because it's been a haven for the poorly socialized, a place where you won't be judged for your ratty neckbeard or your distinctive odor because everybody else has their own issues. I almost hate to ask it, but: is this tolerance really a good thing? Would it be cruel to hold ourselves to standards more similar to the outside world?
I think the isolation of that kind of group is a bit of a problem, because bad habits or shared beliefs tend to be reinforced in that situation. I don't think anyone should have accept the BO of other people, for one, and bad fashion sense isn't a virtue.
But I should also say I think a lot of this is changing for the better. Boundaries are more respected at cons, groups tend to be less insular as geek goes 'mainstream'.
A devil's-advocate hypothesis springs immediately to mind: "Action figure" is just a euphemism for "doll" to sell them to boys. Saying that girls like playing with action figures may simply be saying that girls like playing with dolls. A follow-up study should focus on a more unambiguously masculine toy, like a truck or plane.
Well, I agree with the first part - but I think the point was that girls wanted to play with the boy dolls, too.
As to the other part: are trucks and planes masculine? I always found them to be neutral, with toy cars being the kind of toy young boys and girls both like playing with.
What are we supposed to do? Weed out the sexist guys and tell them they can't play Magic because they oggled their female opponent or said "I can't believe a lost to a girl!".
If we run a FLGS, then yes, I'd say that's exactly what we're supposed to do. Act like that, and you're no longer welcome in the store.
If they made someone feel unwelcome or uncomfortable, they should definitely be asked to leave, or put in their place. Replace the idea that it was a woman with say, a homophobe playing a gay guy, or a racist playing a black guy and making the same kind of fuss.
Then you wrote how 40% of gamers are women. I just don't believe that. The gamer/nerd community is very white/asian, very heterosexual, and VERY male.
You're welcome to not believe it, but that doesn't make it any less true. I actually had the numbers wrong, it's 45%, reported by the ESA themselves. The hardcore crowds may still be dominated by white/asian straight males, but they don't represent the entire community. You even explain why you wouldn't think the number was that high: the events where you would 'see' them are very male dominated. But those events are pretty much for the most dedicated. The average magic player would probably never play FNM regularly, either.
45% of gamers being women doesn't mean women play the same games as the men, but they're there and they exist. Men and women have different preferences in types of games, and it's partly accounted for by the rise of mobile gaming. Your average anime convention will have a ton of women, most of whom bring their own 3DS, most of whom play RPGs or games like Mario Kart.
I may be quibbling here, because I do agree with the other parts of your post, but 'friend zoning' seems to me to be used as a verb - implying a deliberate act on the part of the woman, as opposed to a simple lack of interest. That's still making the woman the subject and the man the object. Whether it's with regret or rage, the onus is still being placed on the woman for not wanting a romantic relationship. "She friendzoned me" is different from "we're not compatible".
It is a deliberate act on the part of the woman, just like it's a deliberate act on the part of a man when a woman expresses interest and he turns her down. It's certainly not a malicious act (unless it is), and they have every right to do it. But they're making a choice. Exercising agency. Like you say, it makes them the subject. "We're not compatible" is the attitude that implies they are passive objects, that a relationship will just... happen, rather than being a matter of work and choice.
Ogling someone may be tricky to prove (unless they make some comment to go with it, or there's a pattern of complaints from women), but "I can't believe I lost to a girl" is easy.
This. And yes, it's true of grocery stores as well. Management does not have to tolerate behavior that makes paying customers uncomfortable.
Ogling someone may be tricky to prove (unless they make some comment to go with it, or there's a pattern of complaints from women), but "I can't believe I lost to a girl" is easy.
This. And yes, it's true of grocery stores as well. Management does not have to tolerate behavior that makes paying customers uncomfortable.
So if I lost to a kid and said "damn I can't believe I just lost to a kid" should I be kicked out? Is that statement really that bad that it should warrant removal?
So if I lost to a kid and said "damn I can't believe I just lost to a kid" should I be kicked out? Is that statement really that bad that it should warrant removal?
Now you're just quibbling over matters of degree. Depending on the severity of your behavior, maybe you should be kicked out, maybe you should get a warning first. The point is, you are creating an unwelcoming atmosphere and that is not acceptable.
And for the record, picking on a kid is actually worse than picking on an adult woman. At least the woman is on even footing with you in regards to experience and emotional maturity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
The thing is, they really don't. There are a lot of studies out there that suggest girls want to play with action figures just as much as guys do, and that women represent a huge chunk of nerd culture. They even represent, like, 40% of gamers. So it's not that 'women have different interests', because a lot of the socialization about what girls and boys should like has broken down.
Research of extremely questionable authenticity and an extreme ideological movement producing virtually all of that research. From the moment infants can crawl boys and girls show different interests including things like the toys they choose. These experiments have shown these differences to be transcultural and even transpecies as chimps and monkeys have the same habits.
Sea of Dudes
Some people are uncomfortable with arab looking guys on planes too, I just don't take them seriously and neither should you.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
As humans, we have a tendency to cling to ideologies. Any positive set of beliefs can quickly turn malevolent once treated as ideology and not an honest intellectual or experiential pursuit of greater truth. Ideology does in entire economic systems and countries, causes religions to massacre thousands, turns human rights movements into authoritarian sects and makes fools out of humanity’s most brilliant minds. Einstein famously wasted the second half of his career trying to calculate a cosmological constant that didn’t exist because “God doesn’t play dice.”
So if I lost to a kid and said "damn I can't believe I just lost to a kid" should I be kicked out? Is that statement really that bad that it should warrant removal?
Now you're just quibbling over matters of degree. Depending on the severity of your behavior, maybe you should be kicked out, maybe you should get a warning first. The point is, you are creating an unwelcoming atmosphere and that is not acceptable.
And for the record, picking on a kid is actually worse than picking on an adult woman. At least the woman is on even footing with you in regards to experience and emotional maturity.
That's picking on a kid? Holy crap... is this the over sensitivity we live with now? You can't be disappointed with yourself for losing a game to someone that still doesn't know decimal numbers without it being considered picking on them?
This thread is supposedly about whether or not a problem exists... outside of some possible staring or kind of rude comments I can't imagine what would warrant saying a real problem exists that is unique to Magic events.
Of particular interest was the following passage:
Edit: Note, she is not referring to her own article in this comment, but to a related article about gencon on TOR.COM
On the one hand, she hasn't identified anything in particular, other than its a bunch of guys, that made it "unwelcoming", on the other hand she obviously felt that as a woman she was unwelcome in the Magic area.
So, the question up for debate is:
Are there significant elements of the Magic Community that are unwelcoming to women, and what if anything should we do about them?
From my perspective (keeping in mind that I didn't actually enter the magic area at GenCon other than to walk through it to my Doomtown tournament), the only problem area I've identified that does represent real misogyny is the all too common assumption "She's a girl, it'll be an easy match up". I admit to have fallen for that line of thought all too often, and frequently been shown just ow wrong it was. On the other hand, though, as long as we're not expressing that line of thought in any manner, it shouldn't lead to people feeling unwelcome. Further, we can't really change that its a bunch of guys, so the male-female ratio is only going to approach 1 as more women start playing.
Long story short, I don't think the sheer number of males playing is a misogyny issue, and I don't think its something that represents a problem with the community.
Thoughts?
Keep in mind, the intent here is to discuss issues in the community of players. If there are sexism/racism issues involved in the game itself, or its marketing that is a separate topic.
She seems actually a bit of a sexist. Staying out of a place because it has a "sea of dudes". So what makes a sea of dudes something to avoid?
I do not think there is. Many MTG players would actually be thrilled to see a woman in real life and know they really do exist.
I'm not really sure what can be done about it. I tried talking to MaRo about it the one time I met him and was able to ask "any question I wanted." He seemed to feel that it was more of an individual game store problem. That lots of stores are more welcoming to girls, and many are not. Having been to lots and lots of stores, I can agree with that to a certain extent.
One store I went to in Maryland -for example- was run by a female painter and about half the people in attendance were girls. (As you might imagine, the store layout was aesthetically pleasing) The next town over, there was one of the most "generic" stores I had ever been to. It was probably 3 times as big and there wasn't a girl in the place.
But, I think the atmosphere of game stories is only part of the problem, and having marching orders from the mothership could help things.
I get your point, but there's nothing *we* can do about that, other than complain. The purpose of this discussion is to determine 1) is there something wrong with the community, and 2) what can *we* change about the community. Not what can WotC change.
There are a lot of issues were this stuff presents: women are assumed to be 'booth babes' and still get sexually harassed at conventions, they have to deal with people sexualizing them when they're prominent in the industry (look at the crap Jade Raymond from Ubisoft has had to deal with from the fanbase), and even if it isn't necessarily negative, no one wants to get hit on by a ton of awkward nerds when they just want to play a game. This crap happens here on MTGS, where I've been embarassed to be part of a community as it's scared of women who wanted to be a part of it. In general, women don't like it known they're women when dealing with nerd communities online, generally because all the creeps pop out of the woodwork.
A lot of this is why it's disconcerting when confronted with a 'sausage fest', because even if 99% of the guys are cool, that last 1% will still generally ruin the experience. That's why it's important for some women to see that there are other people there who share their experiences and know what it's like. If it's just one woman in a group of guys, unless all the guys are extremely chill, someone is guaranteed to make it weird.
The experience can vary, but basically just ask a woman who is immersed in the gamer culture what it's like. Whether it's guy friends who are only really there because they want to date them, or online games where everyone is trying to hit on you or get pictures of your boobs when they find out you're a woman, or skeevy guys at conventions who think women who cosplay want to be touched, it's still there and it's far more common than it should be. When women have these experiences, they tend to stay away from situations where this crap can happen, which in turn leads to fewer women in the community.
So IS there an issue? Absolutely. Is there something we can do about? Yes and no. We can't outright fix it, but we can call out guys who perpetuate stereotypes or who make gaming experiences uncomfortable for women. They're not villains, but they do need to be told to back off, hanging around the one girl who showed up the LGS the whole time isn't cool.
The thing is, they really don't. There are a lot of studies out there that suggest girls want to play with action figures just as much as guys do, and that women represent a huge chunk of nerd culture. They even represent, like, 40% of gamers. So it's not that 'women have different interests', because a lot of the socialization about what girls and boys should like has broken down.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
Girls are less common in both, but no less willing and no less talented > seen many a chick who could drive a car sideways just as good as anyone else.
But with Magic, the wierdo nerdy's can ruin it for some of the girls....
Yes, sexist guys exist... yes they play magic. What's the issue?
http://imgur.com/JLR0w6W (statistics about Magic players)
I agree with everything you said, and I just wanted to further comment on this part.
I do feel that there is a difference between the way men and women think. On average, brain chemistry of the genders is different,[1] and that must lead to general variations in thought. However, people seem to think those variations are explained by gender stereotypes in preferences, and that's simply wrong. Most gender stereotypes are social constructs and have nothing do with actual inherent physical and mental differences between the genders. So, while I do think there is a difference, there is little science to backup how exactly that difference manifests itself, since our society imposes all these extra variables making it very hard to determine what is do to nature and what is do to nurture.
tl;dr:
There is a massive difference between what people "think" women "should" like, and what women do like.
Do you have a source on this? I'd like to know where and how it was administered before I comment.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
So it was an informal poll on Reddit's Magic the Gathering sub?
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
I've always found this complaint really nebulous. Sure, if upon rejection a guy flies into a misogynistic rage and starts calling the girl a "*****" or whatever, that's really bad. Or if he persists to the point of harassment, that's bad too. But more often, when a guy talks about being "friend zoned", it's with regret and disappointment. And to me, that seems perfectly natural - should we expect people not to feel disappointed when the person they're romantically interested in does not reciprocate? Girls certainly get disappointed too. It's not a sexist male reaction; it's a human reaction. There's lots of real sexism out there, and all the crap you describe in the rest of your post I'm not quoting because I 100% agree with you. But when the awkward nerd is turned down and gets kind of mopey, interpreting that as part of the grand sexism narrative seems like an overreach.
That's not to say that awkward, unrequited attraction can't make a situation really uncomfortable. God knows enough sitcom episodes run on that premise. The problem, though, is the awkwardness, not sexism. Poorly socialized male nerds make some women uncomfortable (and, let's add, poorly socialized female nerds make some men uncomfortable), but they also make other members of their own sex uncomfortable, because they're poorly socialized nerds. Learning how to act in more acceptable ways will make the situation better all around. Nerd culture is traditionally the way it is because it's been a haven for the poorly socialized, a place where you won't be judged for your ratty neckbeard or your distinctive odor because everybody else has their own issues. I almost hate to ask it, but: is this tolerance really a good thing? Would it be cruel to hold ourselves to standards more similar to the outside world?
A devil's-advocate hypothesis springs immediately to mind: "Action figure" is just a euphemism for "doll" to sell them to boys. Saying that girls like playing with action figures may simply be saying that girls like playing with dolls. A follow-up study should focus on a more unambiguously masculine toy, like a truck or plane.
If we run a FLGS, then yes, I'd say that's exactly what we're supposed to do. Act like that, and you're no longer welcome in the store.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
I understand there is a change in the tides. While that 40% figure just sounds off more woman are showing up in online games, LARP events, and LGS. The problem is they are entering a very male community and if they aren't their with a boyfriend, they will be swarmed by geeky, awkward men. Now many gamer women are geeky and awkward as well, unfortunately some (mostly) younger women like the attention they get from being the only girl present (celebrity status). I feel that more are driven to stay online when it comes to gamer/nerd culture as it is simply easier. Even there I know many, probably most conceal their identities for a period of time at least. I used to be big on MTGNews and from what I remember a serious chunk of the "out" women were the kind who liked the attention, even had MTGNews "boyfriends". Most hid unless you knew them very well (e=I was a big colo poster and one of our best players was a woman, she kept that fact hidden to everyone who wasn't in our chat group). You can read articles on top of articles about the harassment women face via the anonymity of the internet once there gender is revealed, especially by younger guys playing computer games.
MaRo felt that this trend against girls was changing. He seemed to think young girls are playing more games on computers than used to play, since everyone is. He felt when those girls grew up they would naturally gravitate to more "traditional" games. He also mentioned that girls were only really absent at "high level play" and in causal play there was just about as many girls and boys. I felt he was overly optimistic, however, since he admitted there was no hard statistics to back his statement about casual play.
Is it also your position then that if someone is oggling a lady at the grocery store the store owner should throw that guy out? What about at a park? What if the guy is just staring blankly in her general direction and the lady just happens to think he's staring at her?
Ogling someone may be tricky to prove (unless they make some comment to go with it, or there's a pattern of complaints from women), but "I can't believe I lost to a girl" is easy.
Either is fine, I was talking about the general trend that dates back to the 30's and pulp novels, not just MTG.
I don't mean to say that its straight up sexism (it isn't), but it's part of the culture that makes women shy away from male dominated events and there is certainly a small amount of objectification there. But when you think about it from the perspective of the woman, who suddenly finds that all her supposed friends disappear when she gets a boyfriend that isn't one of them. All of my female friends (including my wife) have had this experience with nerdy guys. They don't want to go to a game night at a LGS because inevitable some of the guys won't want to just be friends, or at the very least respect boundaries.
I think the isolation of that kind of group is a bit of a problem, because bad habits or shared beliefs tend to be reinforced in that situation. I don't think anyone should have accept the BO of other people, for one, and bad fashion sense isn't a virtue.
But I should also say I think a lot of this is changing for the better. Boundaries are more respected at cons, groups tend to be less insular as geek goes 'mainstream'.
Well, I agree with the first part - but I think the point was that girls wanted to play with the boy dolls, too.
As to the other part: are trucks and planes masculine? I always found them to be neutral, with toy cars being the kind of toy young boys and girls both like playing with.
If they made someone feel unwelcome or uncomfortable, they should definitely be asked to leave, or put in their place. Replace the idea that it was a woman with say, a homophobe playing a gay guy, or a racist playing a black guy and making the same kind of fuss.
You're welcome to not believe it, but that doesn't make it any less true. I actually had the numbers wrong, it's 45%, reported by the ESA themselves. The hardcore crowds may still be dominated by white/asian straight males, but they don't represent the entire community. You even explain why you wouldn't think the number was that high: the events where you would 'see' them are very male dominated. But those events are pretty much for the most dedicated. The average magic player would probably never play FNM regularly, either.
45% of gamers being women doesn't mean women play the same games as the men, but they're there and they exist. Men and women have different preferences in types of games, and it's partly accounted for by the rise of mobile gaming. Your average anime convention will have a ton of women, most of whom bring their own 3DS, most of whom play RPGs or games like Mario Kart.
TerribleBad at Magic since 1998.A Vorthos Guide to Magic Story | Twitter | Tumblr
[Primer] Krenko | Azor | Kess | Zacama | Kumena | Sram | The Ur-Dragon | Edgar Markov | Daretti | Marath
This. And yes, it's true of grocery stores as well. Management does not have to tolerate behavior that makes paying customers uncomfortable.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
So if I lost to a kid and said "damn I can't believe I just lost to a kid" should I be kicked out? Is that statement really that bad that it should warrant removal?
And for the record, picking on a kid is actually worse than picking on an adult woman. At least the woman is on even footing with you in regards to experience and emotional maturity.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
Research of extremely questionable authenticity and an extreme ideological movement producing virtually all of that research. From the moment infants can crawl boys and girls show different interests including things like the toys they choose. These experiments have shown these differences to be transcultural and even transpecies as chimps and monkeys have the same habits.
Some people are uncomfortable with arab looking guys on planes too, I just don't take them seriously and neither should you.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
That's picking on a kid? Holy crap... is this the over sensitivity we live with now? You can't be disappointed with yourself for losing a game to someone that still doesn't know decimal numbers without it being considered picking on them?
This thread is supposedly about whether or not a problem exists... outside of some possible staring or kind of rude comments I can't imagine what would warrant saying a real problem exists that is unique to Magic events.