Also Bocephus, we should not tolerate other people's right to restrict other people's freedoms or end their lives. That is not a right that anyone deserves to have.
I dont agree. That is just America elitism. We feel everyone should live like us, well not everyone can, nor should be forced to.
You do realize that they are breaking the law in Nigeria too right? According to Nigeria, they don't have the right to kill or enslave people either. If a group of terrorists was rampaging through the US killing and kidnapping people, do they deserve the right to keep doing this because they don't want to live like us? Do people have the right to kill people without punishment simply because they are not Americans and are not bound by our morality? And once again, I bring up the Holocaust. Should we have respected the rights of the Nazis to operate concentration camps and kill Jews by the millions simply because they were not bound by our morality?
We have enough problems here. We really need to start dealing with those problems at home and stop sending our money over to help everyone who asks for help.
We don't have problems on this level.
When the U.N. becomes an effective organization that is actually able to stop these kinds of things, people will start asking them. But what good will asking the UN do if they won't do anything effective? If the country asks us for help, we should help them. Or does drawing red lines and providing support only apply to places like Ukraine? As I said, think of the children.
Then disban the U.N.
How much of a difference would it make? Most of the world's issues are unsolvable because of the Security Council anyways.
Think of the American children.
Who will be affected how?
I am sorry, there are always going to be innocent casualties. We can not save the world, hell we can not even save ourselves.
We are saving ourselves better than they are. They asked for our help. If they feel like they need it, then why shouldn't we give what help we can?
I dont agree. That is just America elitism. We feel everyone should live like us, well not everyone can, nor should be forced to.
So if we force people to do things, that's bad; but if we're invited into a country to stop other people from forcing other people to do things against their will, that's also bad?
*Sigh* Anyone else ready to give up on this thread?
I dont agree. That is just America elitism. We feel everyone should live like us, well not everyone can, nor should be forced to.
So if we force people to do things, that's bad; but if we're invited into a country to stop other people from forcing other people to do things against their will, that's also bad?
*Sigh* Anyone else ready to give up on this thread?
I dont agree. That is just America elitism. We feel everyone should live like us, well not everyone can, nor should be forced to.
We have enough problems here. We really need to start dealing with those problems at home and stop sending our money over to help everyone who asks for help.
Wait, you are saying we shouldn't help people in other countries from being sold into slavery until all problems in America are fixed? Wow...that is just...inhuman...
I dont agree. That is just America elitism. We feel everyone should live like us, well not everyone can, nor should be forced to.
We have enough problems here. We really need to start dealing with those problems at home and stop sending our money over to help everyone who asks for help.
Wait, you are saying we shouldn't help people in other countries from being sold into slavery until all problems in America are fixed? Wow...that is just...inhuman...
Agreed. Bocephus, there is a line in morality. You are way over that line. You are saying that you think that America's issues, despite being very minor when you compare them to the world's at large, should come before basic morality. If we can do the morally right thing, then we should to do the morally right thing. Regardless of whether it conflicts with the morality of fundamentalist terrorists that want to annihilate western culture.
There is a huge problem forcing our beliefs to other countries. We are suppose to be a tolerant nation.
It's not about forcing our beliefs. They're begging for our help. Someone posted a link in this thread about it already?
They need to beg the U.N., not America. Again, America is not the world police. We have enough problems in this country to be spending tax dollars helping every country that asks us for help. Its really not our problem.
What's the point of spending all this money on this bloated military if we can't use it here?
The cost you're putting on human lives (and such an intervention would be cheap, make no mistake) is ridiculous. I guess I have to give you credit for your consistency over fiscal panic where you won't lift a finger to help 200 something girls who will be sold as sex slaves.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
When the U.N. becomes an effective organization that is actually able to stop these kinds of things, people will start asking them. But what good will asking the UN do if they won't do anything effective? If the country asks us for help, we should help them. Or does drawing red lines and providing support only apply to places like Ukraine? As I said, think of the children.
Then disban the U.N.
Think of the American children.
I am sorry, there are always going to be innocent casualties. We can not save the world, hell we can not even save ourselves.
Not with that attitude.
Seriously, the USA spends nearly half of the world's total military budget (like 600b/year of 1500b/year). I'm sure you could spare some soliders to protect Nigerian schools and/or investigate terrorist plots in support of Nigeria's troops.
There's a diffrence between overreacting and rolling the army in on bad info, and sending support for a national government that has asked for it.
I wish those so willing to spend our tax dollars on foreign soils, were willing to spend those same dollars on our own people.
The bloated military budget is one of the problems with this country. The military uses situations like this to justify it when we should be cutting back spending and using the extra money on America to fix the problems.
200 girls compares to millions of homeless, millions living in poverty, millions of children lost in a foster care system, just with in America. Yeah lets take millions away from those problems at home and help 200 girls in another country. Priorities people!
America needs to start being responsible for our own and forget about those outside the borders until we get our own crap straightened out.
This problem is why the U.N. is in place. The world needs to stop asking America directly for help. We are not the world police.
Quote from Hackworth »
Seriously, the USA spends nearly half of the world's total military budget (like 600b/year of 1500b/year). I'm sure you could spare some soliders to protect Nigerian schools and/or investigate terrorist plots in support of Nigeria's troops.
This attitude is the reason we are trillions in debt. People scream get the budget under control, we hate paying such high taxes, then say stuff like this. Just leaves me shaking my head.
I wish those so willing to spend our tax dollars on foreign soils, were willing to spend those same dollars on our own people.
The bloated military budget is one of the problems with this country. The military uses situations like this to justify it when we should be cutting back spending and using the extra money on America to fix the problems.
I wish that they could too. But as long as we are spending so much on the military, we might as well use it. I would love for military spending to be cut, but until it is it would be a waste to not use it.
200 girls compares to millions of homeless, millions living in poverty, millions of children lost in a foster care system, just with in America. Yeah lets take millions away from those problems at home and help 200 girls in another country. Priorities people!
This is the "Eat your food. There are starving children in Africa." argument. That money isn't going to them either way until our spending changes. If we are going to waste a bunch of money on a huge military, we might as well use it.
America needs to start being responsible for our own and forget about those outside the borders until we get our own crap straightened out.
This problem is why the U.N. is in place. The world needs to stop asking America directly for help. We are not the world police.
If the U.N. was effective, we wouldn't be needed to help. But the U.N. isn't effective, so no one is going to rely on it. We have shown that we can intervene in other countries. That makes those countries trust our ability to help more than the U.N.'s.
What I really don't understand is why you were saying that we should ignore what the government wants and support the morality of the terrorists. If they were operating in France or Germany, would you feel the same way? And would you apply this to all internal conflicts? If a Nazi state arose somewhere and started exterminating all of the Jews, should we just stand by and do nothing because we need to respect the Nazis' morality?
Its not a moral issue, its a U.N. problem. Its America thinking it can snuff out terrorism. The war on terrorism will end like the war on drug, badly. Terrorism, just like drugs have been around long before America became a country, will be around long after America has screw the pooch and is a crumbled empire. The false thinking that America can stop terrorism is going to hurt America more then its going to help the world.
Why is no one asking England for help? Canada anyone? Isreal? Why does it always have to be America? Because there is a certain section of America that have soft hearts and are ignorant of the economical repercussions to America.
Until we as a nation put our foot down and stop running to every country that cries for help, we are always going to be considered the world police and its going to give those that wish for the large military budget, and continue to drain this America. Its not an ever ending stream of money, its going to run out sooner or later and then who is going to help America?
I wish those so willing to spend our tax dollars on foreign soils, were willing to spend those same dollars on our own people.
....
This attitude is the reason we are trillions in debt. People scream get the budget under control, we hate paying such high taxes, then say stuff like this. Just leaves me shaking my head.
You'll find I'm willing to spend the money locally too. However I am confused: If you think we're not also spending the money domestically then where else do you think this debt came from. Also, as I have to every time you bring up the debt, running a sizable national debt is how every modern nation since the seventeenth century conducted business. You do understand that biggest holders of national debt are Americans right?
Furthermore, this is why I abhor isolationism in the modern age. You say this isn't our problem during a time of world-wide communication and interdependent economies. People in this very thread go on and on about the culture war, and yet here we have a clear example of how to win such a culture war: Prove our values are indeed superior, sex slaves: We're against. You want to shrug and say "Gee, I'd love to help, but the debt." Which brings us to my next point:
They hate freedom as we know it. Why do you push this liberal created a straw-man?
It's not our freedom they hate, it's how we use it. We have people in this very thread who are weighing the dollar value of little girls and deciding that because they didn't have the fortune to be born in America. They hate the Hippocracy of our politicians who claim that freedom and justice are "American Ideals" and then choose to turn a blind eye when given the opportunity. They don't hate our freedoms, they hate our invasions, the games of empire we play to topple their governments. They hate us for going to Iraq, twice. They hate us for the Shah. They hate us for Hamid Karzi. They hate us for the way we selectively care about human-rights. The country of freedom doesn't lift a finger when Israel levels their homes in flagrant disregard for any treaty or sovereignty they have. They hate the way we physically and economically destroy their lives and the dehumanizing tools we employ.
It's not our freedoms they hate. They don't have that luxury.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
I wish those so willing to spend our tax dollars on foreign soils, were willing to spend those same dollars on our own people.
....
This attitude is the reason we are trillions in debt. People scream get the budget under control, we hate paying such high taxes, then say stuff like this. Just leaves me shaking my head.
You'll find I'm willing to spend the money locally too. However I am confused: If you think we're not also spending the money domestically then where else do you think this debt came from. Also, as I have to every time you bring up the debt, running a sizable national debt is how every modern nation since the seventeenth century conducted business. You do understand that biggest holders of national debt are Americans right?
Furthermore, this is why I abhor isolationism in the modern age. You say this isn't our problem during a time of world-wide communication and interdependent economies. People in this very thread go on and on about the culture war, and yet here we have a clear example of how to win such a culture war: Prove our values are indeed superior, sex slaves: We're against. You want to shrug and say "Gee, I'd love to help, but the debt." Which brings us to my next point:
They hate freedom as we know it. Why do you push this liberal created a straw-man?
It's not our freedom they hate, it's how we use it. We have people in this very thread who are weighing the dollar value of little girls and deciding that because they didn't have the fortune to be born in America. They hate the Hippocracy of our politicians who claim that freedom and justice are "American Ideals" and then choose to turn a blind eye when given the opportunity. They don't hate our freedoms, they hate our invasions, the games of empire we play to topple their governments. They hate us for going to Iraq, twice. They hate us for the Shah. They hate us for Hamid Karzi. They hate us for the way we selectively care about human-rights. The country of freedom doesn't lift a finger when Israel levels their homes in flagrant disregard for any treaty or sovereignty they have. They hate the way we physically and economically destroy their lives and the dehumanizing tools we employ.
It's not our freedoms they hate. They don't have that luxury.
Its not about isolationism, its about doing whats best for America.
Why wait for terrorism to take over these helpless small countries, why not invade now and beat the terrorist to the punch? Then we can instill our way of life and maybe those who embrace it will fight for themselves.
I find it hilarious you shoot down what myself and billy are saying then go on to explain exactly why its a terrible idea to go and help. You understand whats going on, yet you wish to continue the invasions because they asked for help.
Like I said before, we really have to stop being world police.
Or, lets just go for world domination and change everyone to our way of life. Quit this passive/aggressive stance because its going to drain America till we crumble.
The difference is the people of those countries didn't ask us to do those things.
I'm going to have to stop posting in this thread because for once you guys are getting me real life angry.
I'm just going to conclude that I find the idea that you think it's too expensive to save these girls from being sold as cattle when we have already spent the money on the tools to do so is evil.
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What's the big deal? You could have played multiple Righteous Avengers for years now.
The difference is the people of those countries didn't ask us to do those things.
I'm going to have to stop posting in this thread because for once you guys are getting me real life angry.
I'm just going to conclude that I find the idea that you think it's too expensive to save these girls from being sold as cattle when we have already spent the money on the tools to do so is evil.
We spent that money to defend America, not those little girls or any other country that wants our help. I think thats the big disconnect here. Some feel the defense budget Americans pay for is for the world.
I am angry someone would feel my tax dollar should be spent in a losing battle. I have watched this country spend trillions trying to stem drug traffic for 40 years and I can go to any high school in the country and find a source to get pot and coke. If anyone thinks our new war, the one on terrorism is going to end any different, they are fooling themselves.
LordOwlingotonIII, we can both be angry, its not going to change anything. You are not going to change my thinking and I am not going to change yours, so where to from here?
Its not a moral issue, its a U.N. problem. Its America thinking it can snuff out terrorism. The war on terrorism will end like the war on drug, badly. Terrorism, just like drugs have been around long before America became a country, will be around long after America has screw the pooch and is a crumbled empire. The false thinking that America can stop terrorism is going to hurt America more then its going to help the world.
It might be a U.N. problem, but the U.N. can never accomplish anything because of the security council. Boko Haram is in violation of the Convention On the Rights of the Child, but the U.N. hasn't done anything yet.
Why is no one asking England for help? Canada anyone? Isreal? Why does it always have to be America? Because there is a certain section of America that have soft hearts and are ignorant of the economical repercussions to America.
Actually, Nigeria also asked the UK and several other countries. The U.S. is just asked for help more because we have been more willing to intervene and are more powerful, both economically and militarily, than places like Canada and Israel.
Until we as a nation put our foot down and stop running to every country that cries for help, we are always going to be considered the world police and its going to give those that wish for the large military budget, and continue to drain this America. Its not an ever ending stream of money, its going to run out sooner or later and then who is going to help America?
So we let the world crumble around us while we try to get our act together. If we sent in troops in a U.N. task force, how would that be any cheaper?
I wish those so willing to spend our tax dollars on foreign soils, were willing to spend those same dollars on our own people.
....
This attitude is the reason we are trillions in debt. People scream get the budget under control, we hate paying such high taxes, then say stuff like this. Just leaves me shaking my head.
You'll find I'm willing to spend the money locally too. However I am confused: If you think we're not also spending the money domestically then where else do you think this debt came from. Also, as I have to every time you bring up the debt, running a sizable national debt is how every modern nation since the seventeenth century conducted business. You do understand that biggest holders of national debt are Americans right?
Furthermore, this is why I abhor isolationism in the modern age. You say this isn't our problem during a time of world-wide communication and interdependent economies. People in this very thread go on and on about the culture war, and yet here we have a clear example of how to win such a culture war: Prove our values are indeed superior, sex slaves: We're against. You want to shrug and say "Gee, I'd love to help, but the debt." Which brings us to my next point:
They hate freedom as we know it. Why do you push this liberal created a straw-man?
It's not our freedom they hate, it's how we use it. We have people in this very thread who are weighing the dollar value of little girls and deciding that because they didn't have the fortune to be born in America. They hate the Hippocracy of our politicians who claim that freedom and justice are "American Ideals" and then choose to turn a blind eye when given the opportunity. They don't hate our freedoms, they hate our invasions, the games of empire we play to topple their governments. They hate us for going to Iraq, twice. They hate us for the Shah. They hate us for Hamid Karzi. They hate us for the way we selectively care about human-rights. The country of freedom doesn't lift a finger when Israel levels their homes in flagrant disregard for any treaty or sovereignty they have. They hate the way we physically and economically destroy their lives and the dehumanizing tools we employ.
It's not our freedoms they hate. They don't have that luxury.
Its not about isolationism, its about doing whats best for America.
While ignoring the rest of the world, which is the same thing as isolationism.
Why wait for terrorism to take over these helpless small countries, why not invade now and beat the terrorist to the punch? Then we can instill our way of life and maybe those who embrace it will fight for themselves.
We don't invade and take over these other countries because it is morally wrong (and it is unsustainable to occupy foreign countries). But when the countries ask us for help, the least we can do is send in a team to help.
I find it hilarious you shoot down what myself and billy are saying then go on to explain exactly why its a terrible idea to go and help. You understand whats going on, yet you wish to continue the invasions because they asked for help.
It isn't an invasion or an occupation. Send in a special ops team, kill the terrorists, save the girls. It worked with Bin Laden.
Like I said before, we really have to stop being world police.
If the world wants us to be the world police, then it is our duty to except. No other country wants to and the U.N. can't. Who will if we don't?
Or, lets just go for world domination and change everyone to our way of life. Quit this passive/aggressive stance because its going to drain America till we crumble.
It isn't changing their way of life unwillingly. The Nigerian government wants our help.
Also, I noticed that you have stopped arguing that we should respect the morality of the murderers, rapists, and slavers.
I think repeat murders and rapist (along with pedophiles) should be put to death. I have never ever fought for the morality of rapist or muderers. To me they lost their right to call themselves human.
Quote from LordOwlingtonIII »
You want to know why the left calls you racist? Because the main reason you refuse to help these people is because they're African.
Their skin color has nothing to do with it. I would feel the same if it was in China, South America, or Canada. You are the one making it a racist issue, not me.
It's not our freedom they hate, it's how we use it. We have people in this very thread who are weighing the dollar value of little girls and deciding that because they didn't have the fortune to be born in America.They don't hate our freedoms, they hate our invasions, the games of empire we play to topple their governments. They hate us for going to Iraq, twice. They hate us for the Shah. They hate us for Hamid Karzi. They hate us for the way we selectively care about human-rights. The country of freedom doesn't lift a finger when Israel levels their homes in flagrant disregard for any treaty or sovereignty they have. They hate the way we physically and economically destroy their lives and the dehumanizing tools we employ.
It's not our freedoms they hate. They don't have that luxury.
I think you have a naive understanding of this issue. I think you need to do research on islamic fundementism and some it's core tennants. You focus on those specific issues as if they are any differnt to the larger issue of their people accepting western liberal culture and ideology. I do not deny US interventions and actions have inflammed the issue however this is a mere footnoot to the broader delima. You've bought into the liberal spin of this that fails to acknowledge this issue would presist regardless of any of the acts you cite above. People like western ideas and culture. This culture is a direct threat to Islamist fundementlism. You can talk about western intervention but there is no way to stop our likable culture from intervening in islamic culture. Fundementlist want a pure islamic world. Its awful arogant to assume American intervention is the reason this fundmentlism exist considering this movement been around since before the creation of the US.
It does not make sense that a group wants less US intervention and deliberately commit acts that will dramtically draw more US intervention. They want a war.
On another note, the people who say "we are hated around the world" obviously has never been anywhere but the US and have bought into another created falsehood. I've been to many, many different countries in the world, I've never expereinced this hatred people speak about. People disagree with US policy but they do not have this deep rooted hatred that get propgated in US political discussions and besides if it were true, who cares? We do not live or exist to be popular.
Fundementlist want a pure islamic world. Its awful arogant to assume American intervention is the reason this fundmentlism exist considering this movement been around since before the creation of the US.
Excellent point. I should note that we're talking about a country that is culturally split between Christians (Catholics) and Muslims, with the Catholics being generally more wealthy but overall Nigeria is a very poor country without much in the way of infrastructure. This tends to lead to extremists in both camps, such as fundamentalist Christians there still doing terrible things to 'witches'.
Boko Haram isn't attacking or taking these girls because they're upset with the US. They're taking these girls because they can. They're an armed militia with strong beliefs, but they're also an extension of a long standing problem. This isn't a new practice in Nigeria, it's part of a decades old struggle with child soldiers, the taking of 'brides', etc. If you want to dig back, the most obvious cause, like most major problems in Africa, has to do with Colonialism and the issues that emerged post-colonialism. As billydaman said, at the very least they want a fundamentalist Nigeria. But that doesn't mean it's entirely the Europeans fault, either. Nigeria is a heavily tribal culture, more loyal to their tribe than the semblance of central government they have in Nigeria.
We should most definitely not be getting involved in this, at least overtly, as it will completely undermine Nigerian government and exacerbate the issue.
Also, I noticed that you have stopped arguing that we should respect the morality of the murderers, rapists, and slavers.
I think repeat murders and rapist (along with pedophiles) should be put to death. I have never ever fought for the morality of rapist or muderers. To me they lost their right to call themselves human.
Oh I don't know, because people killing, kidnapping, raping, and enslaving people is wrong?
This attitude is why the rest of the world doesnt like us much. We are too quick to imprint our values and rights and wrongs on the world and go after anyone that doesnt agree with us.
Its not an American problem, call the UN.
We all know that the UN cannot accomplish much of anything. Our rights and wrongs may be ours, but why can't we spread them to the rest of the world in cases like this. Slavery is wrong. Rape is wrong. Mass killings are wrong. Just because an extremist, minority group disagrees with us does not mean that their morality is as valid as ours. Besides, the legal government asked us to intervene. That is a good enough reason for me. The real question is whether we are able to intervene.
There is a huge problem forcing our beliefs to other countries. We are suppose to be a tolerant nation.
Until they disban the U.N. I will disagree with you. America is not police to the world. Thats what the U.N. was made for.
Also Bocephus, we should not tolerate other people's right to restrict other people's freedoms or end their lives. That is not a right that anyone deserves to have.
I dont agree. That is just America elitism. We feel everyone should live like us, well not everyone can, nor should be forced to.
We have enough problems here. We really need to start dealing with those problems at home and stop sending our money over to help everyone who asks for help.
When the U.N. becomes an effective organization that is actually able to stop these kinds of things, people will start asking them. But what good will asking the UN do if they won't do anything effective? If the country asks us for help, we should help them. Or does drawing red lines and providing support only apply to places like Ukraine? As I said, think of the children.
Then disban the U.N.
Think of the American children.
I am sorry, there are always going to be innocent casualties. We can not save the world, hell we can not even save ourselves.
You actually said that you support the right of other people to restrict freedoms and end lives because we shouldn't be forcing our culture on other people. The most disturbing part of that is the "end lives" part. That is you saying that you think that we shouldn't force people to not kill each other, not just because of the money that we would spend on it, but because you think that they should have the right to kill innocent civilians. That's just wrong. So stop contradicting yourself and decide which quote is right and which is the lie.
You do realize that they are breaking the law in Nigeria too right? According to Nigeria, they don't have the right to kill or enslave people either. If a group of terrorists was rampaging through the US killing and kidnapping people, do they deserve the right to keep doing this because they don't want to live like us? Do people have the right to kill people without punishment simply because they are not Americans and are not bound by our morality? And once again, I bring up the Holocaust. Should we have respected the rights of the Nazis to operate concentration camps and kill Jews by the millions simply because they were not bound by our morality?
We don't have problems on this level.
How much of a difference would it make? Most of the world's issues are unsolvable because of the Security Council anyways.
Who will be affected how?
We are saving ourselves better than they are. They asked for our help. If they feel like they need it, then why shouldn't we give what help we can?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
*Sigh* Anyone else ready to give up on this thread?
Nope. I'm ready to give up on Bocephus.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Wait, you are saying we shouldn't help people in other countries from being sold into slavery until all problems in America are fixed? Wow...that is just...inhuman...
Although...
Yeah, I guess I don't know which one's worse.
Agreed. Bocephus, there is a line in morality. You are way over that line. You are saying that you think that America's issues, despite being very minor when you compare them to the world's at large, should come before basic morality. If we can do the morally right thing, then we should to do the morally right thing. Regardless of whether it conflicts with the morality of fundamentalist terrorists that want to annihilate western culture.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I've just been ignoring joande.
Agreed. At least joande is not throwing all basic morality out of the window in respect for the morals of illegal terrorist groups.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
What's the point of spending all this money on this bloated military if we can't use it here?
The cost you're putting on human lives (and such an intervention would be cheap, make no mistake) is ridiculous. I guess I have to give you credit for your consistency over fiscal panic where you won't lift a finger to help 200 something girls who will be sold as sex slaves.
Seriously, the USA spends nearly half of the world's total military budget (like 600b/year of 1500b/year). I'm sure you could spare some soliders to protect Nigerian schools and/or investigate terrorist plots in support of Nigeria's troops.
There's a diffrence between overreacting and rolling the army in on bad info, and sending support for a national government that has asked for it.
Art is life itself.
They hate freedom as we know it. Why do you push this liberal created a straw-man?
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
The bloated military budget is one of the problems with this country. The military uses situations like this to justify it when we should be cutting back spending and using the extra money on America to fix the problems.
200 girls compares to millions of homeless, millions living in poverty, millions of children lost in a foster care system, just with in America. Yeah lets take millions away from those problems at home and help 200 girls in another country. Priorities people!
America needs to start being responsible for our own and forget about those outside the borders until we get our own crap straightened out.
This problem is why the U.N. is in place. The world needs to stop asking America directly for help. We are not the world police.
This attitude is the reason we are trillions in debt. People scream get the budget under control, we hate paying such high taxes, then say stuff like this. Just leaves me shaking my head.
I wish that they could too. But as long as we are spending so much on the military, we might as well use it. I would love for military spending to be cut, but until it is it would be a waste to not use it.
This is the "Eat your food. There are starving children in Africa." argument. That money isn't going to them either way until our spending changes. If we are going to waste a bunch of money on a huge military, we might as well use it.
America needs to start being responsible for our own and forget about those outside the borders until we get our own crap straightened out.
If the U.N. was effective, we wouldn't be needed to help. But the U.N. isn't effective, so no one is going to rely on it. We have shown that we can intervene in other countries. That makes those countries trust our ability to help more than the U.N.'s.
What I really don't understand is why you were saying that we should ignore what the government wants and support the morality of the terrorists. If they were operating in France or Germany, would you feel the same way? And would you apply this to all internal conflicts? If a Nazi state arose somewhere and started exterminating all of the Jews, should we just stand by and do nothing because we need to respect the Nazis' morality?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Why is no one asking England for help? Canada anyone? Isreal? Why does it always have to be America? Because there is a certain section of America that have soft hearts and are ignorant of the economical repercussions to America.
Until we as a nation put our foot down and stop running to every country that cries for help, we are always going to be considered the world police and its going to give those that wish for the large military budget, and continue to drain this America. Its not an ever ending stream of money, its going to run out sooner or later and then who is going to help America?
You'll find I'm willing to spend the money locally too. However I am confused: If you think we're not also spending the money domestically then where else do you think this debt came from. Also, as I have to every time you bring up the debt, running a sizable national debt is how every modern nation since the seventeenth century conducted business. You do understand that biggest holders of national debt are Americans right?
Furthermore, this is why I abhor isolationism in the modern age. You say this isn't our problem during a time of world-wide communication and interdependent economies. People in this very thread go on and on about the culture war, and yet here we have a clear example of how to win such a culture war: Prove our values are indeed superior, sex slaves: We're against. You want to shrug and say "Gee, I'd love to help, but the debt." Which brings us to my next point:
It's not our freedom they hate, it's how we use it. We have people in this very thread who are weighing the dollar value of little girls and deciding that because they didn't have the fortune to be born in America. They hate the Hippocracy of our politicians who claim that freedom and justice are "American Ideals" and then choose to turn a blind eye when given the opportunity. They don't hate our freedoms, they hate our invasions, the games of empire we play to topple their governments. They hate us for going to Iraq, twice. They hate us for the Shah. They hate us for Hamid Karzi. They hate us for the way we selectively care about human-rights. The country of freedom doesn't lift a finger when Israel levels their homes in flagrant disregard for any treaty or sovereignty they have. They hate the way we physically and economically destroy their lives and the dehumanizing tools we employ.
It's not our freedoms they hate. They don't have that luxury.
Its not about isolationism, its about doing whats best for America.
Why wait for terrorism to take over these helpless small countries, why not invade now and beat the terrorist to the punch? Then we can instill our way of life and maybe those who embrace it will fight for themselves.
I find it hilarious you shoot down what myself and billy are saying then go on to explain exactly why its a terrible idea to go and help. You understand whats going on, yet you wish to continue the invasions because they asked for help.
Like I said before, we really have to stop being world police.
Or, lets just go for world domination and change everyone to our way of life. Quit this passive/aggressive stance because its going to drain America till we crumble.
I'm going to have to stop posting in this thread because for once you guys are getting me real life angry.
I'm just going to conclude that I find the idea that you think it's too expensive to save these girls from being sold as cattle when we have already spent the money on the tools to do so is evil.
We spent that money to defend America, not those little girls or any other country that wants our help. I think thats the big disconnect here. Some feel the defense budget Americans pay for is for the world.
I am angry someone would feel my tax dollar should be spent in a losing battle. I have watched this country spend trillions trying to stem drug traffic for 40 years and I can go to any high school in the country and find a source to get pot and coke. If anyone thinks our new war, the one on terrorism is going to end any different, they are fooling themselves.
LordOwlingotonIII, we can both be angry, its not going to change anything. You are not going to change my thinking and I am not going to change yours, so where to from here?
It might be a U.N. problem, but the U.N. can never accomplish anything because of the security council. Boko Haram is in violation of the Convention On the Rights of the Child, but the U.N. hasn't done anything yet.
Actually, Nigeria also asked the UK and several other countries. The U.S. is just asked for help more because we have been more willing to intervene and are more powerful, both economically and militarily, than places like Canada and Israel.
So we let the world crumble around us while we try to get our act together. If we sent in troops in a U.N. task force, how would that be any cheaper?
While ignoring the rest of the world, which is the same thing as isolationism.
We don't invade and take over these other countries because it is morally wrong (and it is unsustainable to occupy foreign countries). But when the countries ask us for help, the least we can do is send in a team to help.
It isn't an invasion or an occupation. Send in a special ops team, kill the terrorists, save the girls. It worked with Bin Laden.
If the world wants us to be the world police, then it is our duty to except. No other country wants to and the U.N. can't. Who will if we don't?
It isn't changing their way of life unwillingly. The Nigerian government wants our help.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You want to know why the left calls you racist? Because the main reason you refuse to help these people is because they're African.
Flame/troll infraction. - Blinking Spirit
I think repeat murders and rapist (along with pedophiles) should be put to death. I have never ever fought for the morality of rapist or muderers. To me they lost their right to call themselves human.
Their skin color has nothing to do with it. I would feel the same if it was in China, South America, or Canada. You are the one making it a racist issue, not me.
I think you have a naive understanding of this issue. I think you need to do research on islamic fundementism and some it's core tennants. You focus on those specific issues as if they are any differnt to the larger issue of their people accepting western liberal culture and ideology. I do not deny US interventions and actions have inflammed the issue however this is a mere footnoot to the broader delima. You've bought into the liberal spin of this that fails to acknowledge this issue would presist regardless of any of the acts you cite above. People like western ideas and culture. This culture is a direct threat to Islamist fundementlism. You can talk about western intervention but there is no way to stop our likable culture from intervening in islamic culture. Fundementlist want a pure islamic world. Its awful arogant to assume American intervention is the reason this fundmentlism exist considering this movement been around since before the creation of the US.
It does not make sense that a group wants less US intervention and deliberately commit acts that will dramtically draw more US intervention. They want a war.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
calling liberals loons=not okay
The standard to which the forum moderators apply the rules here.
Excellent point. I should note that we're talking about a country that is culturally split between Christians (Catholics) and Muslims, with the Catholics being generally more wealthy but overall Nigeria is a very poor country without much in the way of infrastructure. This tends to lead to extremists in both camps, such as fundamentalist Christians there still doing terrible things to 'witches'.
Boko Haram isn't attacking or taking these girls because they're upset with the US. They're taking these girls because they can. They're an armed militia with strong beliefs, but they're also an extension of a long standing problem. This isn't a new practice in Nigeria, it's part of a decades old struggle with child soldiers, the taking of 'brides', etc. If you want to dig back, the most obvious cause, like most major problems in Africa, has to do with Colonialism and the issues that emerged post-colonialism. As billydaman said, at the very least they want a fundamentalist Nigeria. But that doesn't mean it's entirely the Europeans fault, either. Nigeria is a heavily tribal culture, more loyal to their tribe than the semblance of central government they have in Nigeria.
We should most definitely not be getting involved in this, at least overtly, as it will completely undermine Nigerian government and exacerbate the issue.
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Your previous posts indicate otherwise.
You actually said that you support the right of other people to restrict freedoms and end lives because we shouldn't be forcing our culture on other people. The most disturbing part of that is the "end lives" part. That is you saying that you think that we shouldn't force people to not kill each other, not just because of the money that we would spend on it, but because you think that they should have the right to kill innocent civilians. That's just wrong. So stop contradicting yourself and decide which quote is right and which is the lie.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.