So first of all, let me say that I am a gigantic wuss for putting this on an mtg-focused forum with probably a 90%+ male demographic. If I wanted a legitimate discussion I should probably put it somewhere a little more diversity of opinion, but, as mentioned, I am a wuss, and also most likely wrong. I'm fine with being wrong. But currently I'm wrong and I don't know why, but I'd like to either be wrong and know why, or be right, so hopefully someone can educate me on how I can become one of those two things.
Ok, so I recently have been reading a lot of feminist stuff for reasons I won't go into, and something that's been bugging me recently is the idea of "rape culture", in particular because of a letter Patton Oswalt wrote. Specifically, one thing that's been bugging me is the complaint (cited here on wikipedia) that we focus on "how not to be raped" instead of "how not to rape".
On first glance, this does seem sort of offensive - obviously no one is "asking to be raped". Obviously if someone is raped, it's 100% the perpetrator's fault. THAT SAID, we take the "how not to have X happen to you" approach to a LOT of crimes and no one gets offended about it. For example, identity theft. Is it fair that, because there are jerks (pardon my language) who steal your stuff, you should have to go to a lot of trouble (changing passwords, keeping information secure, firewalls, download paranoia, etc) to avoid having it happen to you? No, in my opinion. And same is (in my opinion) true of rape. Is it your RESPONSIBILITY to avoid being raped? No, the burden shouldn't be on you. HOWEVER, whether or not it's my fault, I really don't want to have my identity stolen, so I jump through certain hoops, modify my behavior, go out of my way to avoid having it happen. And I don't see why it would be different for rape - of course it's not your fault if it happened to you, but I don't see what the harm would be in suggesting some tips to avoid it happening, even though you're not obligated to follow through on them, and shouldn't be. But I think conflating "how not to be raped" with victim blaming is way off-base.
Another thing about this that I think is sort of odd is the idea that people should campaign for "how not to rape". Mostly I'm confused by this. Generally-speaking, I feel like it's difficult to have ANY campaign against committing a crime based on appealing to the perpetrator, because usually the perpetrator of the crime KNOWS they're wrong but is doing it anyway. It's a lot easier to appeal to the victims because they've got a lot more interest in preventing it, even though it shouldn't be their responsibility. And if you're worried about X happening to you, it's a lot faster to decrease its chances of happening by doing something yourself, even if it's not fair, than to wait for the slow shifting of culture.
And culture-wise, I don't think justifiably-demonizing rape is necessarily the way that's going to actually make an impact. Currently I feel like, and maybe I'm off-base, that rape is really, really demonized. It's sort of a tired argument, but I've seen a bazillion murders on tv/movies/vgs and very few rapes, and usually they have a way more serious impact - I've never seen an equivalent of "Shoot 'Em Up" (the clive owen movie) or "Kill Bill" with murder replaced by rape and played for laughs or glorified or stylized in any way. Which is good and fine, but I guess my point is that I don't think anyone who still thinks rape is ok is reasonably going to have their mind changed by anything short of clockwork oranging them at this point. I think it may actually have gone too far, to where people don't want to report rape because they know it's going to generate such a firestorm because of how reviled it is. But that's (mostly) just speculation on my part. Actually most of this is, but whatever. As mentioned, I'm probably wrong.
The problem needs to be attacked at both ends, and will never be 100% efficient. We should be doing everything as a society to prevent these kinds of things from happening. We should be educating people that such actions will not be tolerated, and we should put into place infrastructure to make it harder to perform such actions if some deviants get it into their head to do it anyway.
The lock on your door isn't going to stop a thief who is dead-set on robbing you, but it will make harder (however marginally) and--thus--will discourage some.
Is it true that in some neighborhoods you really don't need to lock your door? Yes. Would it be nicer if we all lived in a society where we don't have to lock our door? Yes.
But, if you want to decrease your chances of being robbed, you should lock your door.
The lock on your door isn't going to stop a thief who is dead-set on robbing you, but it will make harder (however marginally) and--thus--will discourage most.
It stops the opportunistic thief, but not the determined one. Basically, you need enough protection to the value of your stuff.
The real issue I take with the analogy is this: A provocatively dressed and attractive girl getting drunk at a frat party is not the same as leaving the door to your house unlocked. It's more comparable to leaving the door open while you have a huge window showing off your well-lit, priceless jewelry collection.
I'd still punish the thief who stole the property, but I'd also tell the homeowner he was an idiot.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
But I think conflating "how not to be raped" with victim blaming is way off-base.
Answer me this: How do you not get raped?
Quote from DirkGently »
Another thing about this that I think is sort of odd is the idea that people should campaign for "how not to rape".
Young men are hormonal idiots who treat any form of perceived advance as an invitation to have sex. Telling them rape is wrong is not what its after, its drilling into that social community's thick skull that weakness is not an invitation to press the advantage.
Oh also, when a person gets their identity stolen, the first questions aren't what their password was or whether or not they had sufficient web encryption. When a 12 year old girl was gang raped by 12 men in Texas, the national discussion was what she was wearing before getting raped by 12 men. That's focus on "how not to get raped" and that's victim blaming through and through.
The first issue I'm not sure you're getting is that the vast, vast majority of rapes aren't the 'jump out of the bushes' crimes made popular by the media. They're done by people the women know. It changes the dynamic because it's not an issue of an outside invader, it's someone you already trust or at least know. And in the cases of an outside invader, studies show that looks/clothing/location/time are largely irrelevant to the predators, they only look for vulnerable targets, meaning that the only real defense is to never be by yourself as a woman or for every woman to be a master martial artist or armed to the teeth. So it's really a lot of bull**** out there that isn't practical.
And to clarify, the 'How not to rape' issue has several components (and these certainly aren't all of them, just the ones I can think of at the moment):
Teaching boys/men that only yes means yes. "No means no" is great in theory but it doesn't really work in reality with an inebriated, unconscious or terrified woman. Teaching boys that only verbal consent means yes avoids a lot of the 'mixed signals' excuses made. Obviously, after you get closer it's a different scenario, but when talking about the first time, we should be teaching children than you should always have verbal consent.
Teaching boys that you aren't entitled to anything from a woman. This is why the 'friend zone' is such a sore topic for me, because it's part of a cultural phenomena where boys expect benefits or reciprocity for things they do. When taken to extremes, it becomes date rape.
Not signaling to children that the victim is at fault by leaping onto the 'she's a ****'/'they're scum' bandwagon before there has even been a trial. In fact, you should always strive to teach your children not to rush to judgment, especially on public cases.
Not encouraging the so-called 'rape culture' (which is a debatable term but one that has roots in real problems) through sports culture. Hometown sports heroes should not get away with everything. We see this in pro players all the time, but even local high school sports players can get special treatments. I was listening to a news article the other day about a college that had fake or ridiculously easy classes for football players to keep their GPAs up (African Studies classes that either didn't exist or consisted of a single paper). We treat them like they're expected to have women throwing themselves at the players, and then they react like jackasses at parties. This obviously doesn't apply to all sports players, but the bad eggs are the ones that ruin everything. These tend to be the most reported on, which by itself shows that this extreme sports fetishism in our culture is a problem.
There are a lot of cultural changes that, if they happened, would prevent a lot of what's going on simply by stopping boys from being *******s.
But I think conflating "how not to be raped" with victim blaming is way off-base.
Answer me this: How do you not get raped?
I'm not going down the whole "don't dress provocatively" because I don't think that's really part of the problem (except maybe at a society-wide level insomuch as women tend to wear clothes that emphasize their sexual characteristics more than men, which might be part of why - and caused by - the way that women are perceived more sexually than men). But I will say that getting very drunk around people you don't know well is probably a bad idea. I wouldn't do it.
Quote from DirkGently »
Another thing about this that I think is sort of odd is the idea that people should campaign for "how not to rape".
Young men are hormonal idiots who treat any form of perceived advance as an invitation to have sex. Telling them rape is wrong is not what its after, its drilling into that social community's thick skull that weakness is not an invitation to press the advantage.
Oh also, when a person gets their identity stolen, the first questions aren't what their password was or whether or not they had sufficient web encryption. When a 12 year old girl was gang raped by 12 men in Texas, the national discussion was what she was wearing before getting raped by 12 men. That's focus on "how not to get raped" and that's victim blaming through and through.
Was that actually a "national discussion" or was that a sleazy attorney's half-assed last-ditch attempt to get his obviously guilty client off, that the media used as an excuse to create inflammatory new stories for ratings? I really doubt any sane person thinks an eleven year old can be asking for anything based on what she was wearing.
Obviously if it happens it's not the victim's fault because of their clothes or whatever, nor is it in any way their fault even if they were very drunk around strangers, but I still don't think it's victim blaming if you advise someone to avoid doing that. For the same reason advising someone to choose a strong password doesn't mean you're saying it's their fault if someone stole their identity. It's just that it's easier and more effective to increase security than to create a culture where identity theft is frowned upon so hard that people stop doing it.
I'm not sure I agree that hormonal idiot teenagers are responsible for many rapes. Unwanted sexual advances, maybe, but not rapes. I think most rapists know what they're doing. If you can find statistics to prove otherwise be my guest.
The first issue I'm not sure you're getting is that the vast, vast majority of rapes aren't the 'jump out of the bushes' crimes made popular by the media. They're done by people the women know. It changes the dynamic because it's not an issue of an outside invader, it's someone you already trust or at least know. And in the cases of an outside invader, studies show that looks/clothing/location/time are largely irrelevant to the predators, they only look for vulnerable targets, meaning that the only real defense is to never be by yourself as a woman or for every woman to be a master martial artist or armed to the teeth. So it's really a lot of bull**** out there that isn't practical.
And to clarify, the 'How not to rape' issue has several components (and these certainly aren't all of them, just the ones I can think of at the moment):
Teaching boys/men that only yes means yes. "No means no" is great in theory but it doesn't really work in reality with an inebriated, unconscious or terrified woman. Teaching boys that only verbal consent means yes avoids a lot of the 'mixed signals' excuses made. Obviously, after you get closer it's a different scenario, but when talking about the first time, we should be teaching children than you should always have verbal consent.
Teaching boys that you aren't entitled to anything from a woman. This is why the 'friend zone' is such a sore topic for me, because it's part of a cultural phenomena where boys expect benefits or reciprocity for things they do. When taken to extremes, it becomes date rape.
Not signaling to children that the victim is at fault by leaping onto the 'she's a ****'/'they're scum' bandwagon before there has even been a trial. In fact, you should always strive to teach your children not to rush to judgment, especially on public cases.
Not encouraging the so-called 'rape culture' (which is a debatable term but one that has roots in real problems) through sports culture. Hometown sports heroes should not get away with everything. We see this in pro players all the time, but even local high school sports players can get special treatments. I was listening to a news article the other day about a college that had fake or ridiculously easy classes for football players to keep their GPAs up (African Studies classes that either didn't exist or consisted of a single paper). We treat them like they're expected to have women throwing themselves at the players, and then they react like jackasses at parties. This obviously doesn't apply to all sports players, but the bad eggs are the ones that ruin everything. These tend to be the most reported on, which by itself shows that this extreme sports fetishism in our culture is a problem.
There are a lot of cultural changes that, if they happened, would prevent a lot of what's going on simply by stopping boys from being *******s.
Most of that seems like common sense stuff to me, but I'm not everyone (probably). Although I will say that I don't think I've ever explicitly asked (or been asked) for consent...I mean, it's sort of a mood killer, I assume most people (including myself) go mostly off body language, dirty talk, excitement levels, mutual touching, etc...it's usually not exactly subtle. I think anyone claiming mixed signals is just BSing and would have done and said the same with or without education.
Obviously no means no, and so does any kind of pushing away, hesitation, etc. Obviously when alcohol or drugs enter into it things get more difficult to determine on both sides, which is why I avoid them for early dating (or one-time dating, as it were). But I still think (and I could be wrong) that the people perpetrating the crimes are well aware that what they're doing is wrong, and any "she was asking for it", "she was giving me mixed messages" etc is crap they came up with after the fact to justify it to other people. I mean, if the woman is unconscious or terrified and you're going for it...I don't think your health class teacher saying "remember, only yes means yes!" is going to be the thing that stopped you.
Some stats I've found (who knows how accurate) say that a pretty high (I saw 57%) of rapes occur on dates, and most of them involved alcohol. I'm just saying, if I were a woman, I would avoid a first date that involved heavy drinking. It doesn't make it their fault, but it's something I think should be avoided. It's just a bad idea.
THAT SAID, we take the "how not to have X happen to you" approach to a LOT of crimes and no one gets offended about it.
People get angry about giving advice on "how not to be raped" for two major reasons in my experience.
They feel that victims of rape are placed on the spot far too much. You'll stop noticing this if you spend enough time in feminist spaces because the opposite happens there. Plenty of examples of discussion focusing on how rape victims are at fault exist in our culture.
The attempts at advice are very poor. I don't know of any evidence that dressing "provocatively" increased your chances of being raped, for example. A lot of people also perceive that kind of advice as a sidelong way of controlling how women dress.
Some advice doesn't have to be the classically misogynistic "don't dress like a whore..."
How about -
Keep your open beverages in your hand or in sight at all times, and don't accept drinks from a stranger, if they want to buy you a drink, go to the bar and let the bartender make it for you.
Always have a true and trusted friend or two in the wings.
Carry a defensive weapon of some kind, and know how to use it.
Be aware of your surroundings, and identify exits.
Advice like the above is useful, fair, and also gender neutral. Not full proof obviously, nothing ever is. Also, rather common sense and therefore, people should be raised with those kind of street smarts and shouldn't need to be told, but tell them anyways.
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Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
I don't think it's "how not to rape". That's easy; don't rape. It's more that society has this annoying habit of focusing on "how not to be raped", but really, trying to avoid being raped 100% of the time means never being alone with someone, never letting your guard down. Whoa, there goes any romantic life you might conceivably have, any intimacy at all. Watch your drinks, but that means you have to order a new drink if you ever go to the bathroom.
The problem is that this focus also takes agency away from the actual perpetrator of the rape. As I said, it's really easy to not rape someone. Just don't rape. (Seriously, if she wants it, it will be an emphatic, enthusiastic "Yes!" that makes the old lady a few feet away order what she's having.)
(At the risk of grammar Nazism, the verb "to be raped" is in the passive voice.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I don't think it's "how not to rape". That's easy; don't rape. It's more that society has this annoying habit of focusing on "how not to be raped", but really, trying to avoid being raped 100% of the time means never being alone with someone, never letting your guard down. Whoa, there goes any romantic life you might conceivably have, any intimacy at all. Watch your drinks, but that means you have to order a new drink if you ever go to the bathroom.
The problem is that this focus also takes agency away from the actual perpetrator of the rape. As I said, it's really easy to not rape someone. Just don't rape. (Seriously, if she wants it, it will be an emphatic, enthusiastic "Yes!" that makes the old lady a few feet away order what she's having.)
(At the risk of grammar Nazism, the verb "to be raped" is in the passive voice.)
Of course you can't prevent anything 100% of the time - locks example, identity thief example, etc. But a certain amount of common sense on the first few dates - stay in public places, don't get overly inebriated - shouldn't be very intrusive and could definitely protect you. You're probably better off avoiding a lot of drinks for the first few dates anyway, but that's just my opinion. I'm not saying it's your fault if you want to get drunk, but I'm saying if your goal is to avoid getting raped, not getting drunk is probably a good idea with someone you don't know well.
We also have a (albeit less fervent) habit of focusing on "how not to be robbed" or "how not to have your identity stolen" way more than "how not to steal". Because thieves and rapists are *******s and they don't care that you don't want them to. Hence they have no motivation to care.
Also I'm not sure what you mean about grammar Nazism, you're correct but what's your point?
Also I've never heard anyone shout "Yes!" in response to someone asking whether they'd care for some sex. It's more of a pulling-each-others'-pants-off-while-breathing-heavily sort of action. Nor are we usually within several feet of an old lady. But maybe you're from someplace weird.
We treat them like they're expected to have women throwing themselves at the players, and then they react like jackasses at parties.
Who, what? Who treats them like that? And what kind of treatment are you describing. That's silly. What happens here, does the principle and the teachers hurl young girls at them while they pass through a corridor? If girls get thrown at them it is because they throw themselves. Good luck explaining to girls jocks are not supposed to be sexy.
I think what he's saying is that they're treated to think that they're entitled to women, so they take it for granted that all women want to have sex with them, and thus a "no" must be a "yes".
At least, that's my interpretation. Not saying I agree with it, I don't have any facts. Although I'm in favor of anything that involves taking professional team sports down a peg.
(Seriously, if she wants it, it will be an emphatic, enthusiastic "Yes!" that makes the old lady a few feet away order what she's having.)
The doctrine of "enthusiastic consent" is a awful one that accomplishes little more than making people feel like victims because they don't share a particular view of sex.
We treat them like they're expected to have women throwing themselves at the players, and then they react like jackasses at parties.
Who, what? Who treats them like that? And what kind of treatment are you describing. That's silly. What happens here, does the principle and the teachers hurl young girls at them while they pass through a corridor? If girls get thrown at them it is because they throw themselves. Good luck explaining to girls jocks are not supposed to be sexy.
As someone who grew up in Small Town Football Land, many of the football players are taught that they're God's gift to the town and are treated as such. If they engage in any crimes (be it sexual or otherwise), the attitude of the authorities is that "boys will be boys." The authorities in these small towns go out of their way to make sure the stars of the football team are kept out of trouble and with passing grades (often dubiously--there are cases where these players pass while flunking the tests and not turning in the homework).
There is a town I pass through all the time where their only claim to fame is producing a really good football team that has went to the State Championship. (To a lesser extent, they are somewhat known for being the home of Stone Cold Steve Austin, although in announcements they say he's from Victoria when he's actually from Cuero.) What are the most common crimes in this town? Domestic violence and drunk driving.
Reason I take issue with that scenario is it sound so much like a prototype teenage movie from the eighties. All that is missing is Marty Mcfly saving the girl from evil jocks with his hoverboard. Here overseas the jock-culture was never so widespread but the universal truth that has cheerleaders dating jocks is still valid only known as the -models dating soccer players- subject.
These small, rural towns I'm talking about revolve around football. Everyone in town is at the stadium on Friday night. People get overly invested in high school football to the point of where it clouds judgment and common sense.
This isn't a movie. It's real. Many Americans take football as seriously as death itself. Hence we get stuff like the Sandusky case at Penn State where people went out of their way to protect a child rapist because "he's a good football coach." The corruption reached all the way to the top, all because of devotion to football.
As someone who grew up in Small Town Football Land, many of the football players are taught that they're God's gift to the town and are treated as such. If they engage in any crimes (be it sexual or otherwise), the attitude of the authorities is that "boys will be boys." The authorities in these small towns go out of their way to make sure the stars of the football team are kept out of trouble and with passing grades (often dubiously--there are cases where these players pass while flunking the tests and not turning in the homework).
There is a town I pass through all the time where their only claim to fame is producing a really good football team that has went to the State Championship. (To a lesser extent, they are somewhat known for being the home of Stone Cold Steve Austin, although in announcements they say he's from Victoria when he's actually from Cuero.) What are the most common crimes in this town? Domestic violence and drunk driving.
And its true. Girls go for money and status. Football/soccer players have that and girls fight over them. It is silly identifying that as a rape-enabling factor.
It's a rape enabling factor when money/status can get you out of legal trouble. It's not only a rape enabling factor, it's a crime enabling factor.
Reason I take issue with that scenario is it sound so much like a prototype teenage movie from the eighties. All that is missing is Marty Mcfly saving the girl from evil jocks with his hoverboard. Here overseas the jock-culture was never so widespread but the universal truth that has cheerleaders dating jocks is still valid only known as the -models dating soccer players- subject.
These small, rural towns I'm talking about revolve around football. Everyone in town is at the stadium on Friday night. People get overly invested in high school football to the point of where it clouds judgment and common sense.
This isn't a movie. It's real. Many Americans take football as seriously as death itself. Hence we get stuff like the Sandusky case at Penn State where people went out of their way to protect a child rapist because "he's a good football coach." The corruption reached all the way to the top, all because of devotion to football.
The case of Daisy Coleman is similar, just replace coach with players.
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“Tell me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.” Esmeralda Santiago Art is life itself.
This thread has a big smattering of sexism about it. What is worrying to me is that it is geared towards men. Let me explain. It propagates this myth that all men are just a bunch of raving sex lunatics.
Let me tell you something ladies there are a lot of men who can look at a woman (no matter how she is dressed) admire her beauty and go about there day with not the slightest desire to rape anyone.
To think that a man cannot resist his desire is a really bad gender stereotype. One we should all resist.
This thread has a big smattering of sexism about it. What is worrying to me is that it is geared towards men. Let me explain. It propagates this myth that all men are just a bunch of raving sex lunatics.
Let me tell you something ladies there are a lot of men who can look at a woman (no matter how she is dressed) admire her beauty and go about there day with not the slightest desire to rape anyone.
To think that a man cannot resist his desire is a really bad gender stereotype. One we should all resist.
And yet in most reported instances of rape, the perpetrators are male. I don't think anyone here is insinuating that all men are rapists or even capable of rape, but in discussion of rape against women, it's not unusual that the assumption is that men are the perpetrators.
This thread is in fact discussing that men are capable of restraining sexual desires and that we ought to.
"Don't rape" is a bit too easy though. How many people actually think "yeah, I want to rape so and so" (even as they're doing something well within the sexual-consent gray area, trending towards the Yes Definitely It's Rape zone)? That's why we need communication! And also knowing how pesky human psychology leads us to respond (or not) to certain social situations.
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Do I Contradict Myself? Very Well Then I Contradict Myself.
I'm often terrified that a sexual action I initiate would be viewed as rape or even rape adjacent afterwords. I don't know how these people cross that line. Like, freaked to the point where I'm hesitant to ever make s move.
1. Part of why we're so resentful of "how to not get raped", but not "how not to get robbed", is that the former has a history of victim-blaming that the latter doesn't. In the not-to-distant past, rape was commonly viewed as the woman's fault. In many parts of the world, it still is. Ergo when it comes up, "how not to get raped" by default comes with the subtext "Not getting raped is your responsibility", because that IS what it meant for the past thousand years. This applies doubly so when the conversation is in text form, since one can't use intonation and body language to indicate that they are not saying this from a place of judgment but instead from a place of empathy/sympathy.
2. The concept of rape culture, from my perspective, is less about rape per se then it is about boundaries, and a lack of respect thereof. This stems a great deal from the atrociously ****ty sex ed in our country. Most of it consists of "here's what sex is, and you should next have it til marriage, the end." Nowhere does it include what is legally considered consent. Boys are left to fill in the blanks, and while you may think it would be common sense, young boys still get it very, very wrong on a regular basis. And why wouldn't they? Teenagers get all sorts of stuff wrong all time when they're unguided and unsupervised, why would this be any different?
3. A certain amount of it comes from the fact that "don't rape" is inherently in conflict with the concept of masculinity our society likes to push. No, men are not sex-crazed monsters by default, but there's a lot in media that suggests they're supposed to be. Men are encouraged to draw self-esteem from aggression and sexual prowess. It creates a culture in which a man's worth is hinged on his ability to "get some", which subsequently give men way too much incentive to pursue sex at all costs - costs which can and often do include the woman's say in the matter.
4. On getting consent - yes, you do need to ask. Kill the mood you say? Not being creative enough, says I. It's a simple matter of "Tell me how much you want me baby!", or some variation thereof. It's really not hard to work it into dirty-talk. As far as being afraid of things being misconstrued - that's why you should be upfront about your intentions. If you aren't sure that your non-verbal communication is getting the point across, BE EXPLICIT and use words! There are plenty of guys I know who have found ways to do this effectively, I'm sure the rest of you can too
2. The concept of rape culture, from my perspective, is less about rape per se then it is about boundaries, and a lack of respect thereof. This stems a great deal from the atrociously ****ty sex ed in our country. Most of it consists of "here's what sex is, and you should next have it til marriage, the end." Nowhere does it include what is legally considered consent. Boys are left to fill in the blanks, and while you may think it would be common sense, young boys still get it very, very wrong on a regular basis. And why wouldn't they? Teenagers get all sorts of stuff wrong all time when they're unguided and unsupervised, why would this be any different?
Yes, this what "don't rape" campaigns need to focus on. Someone at my uni put up ridiculous posters that just said "Boys: Don't Rape" on them. No one believes that rape is okay, they're just not clear on what rape is. Getting people to be aware that you shouldn't have sex with people who are intoxicated (or let people you know do so) is particularly important.
Men are encouraged to draw self-esteem from aggression and sexual prowess. It creates a culture in which a man's worth is hinged on his ability to "get some", which subsequently give men way too much incentive to pursue sex at all costs - costs which can and often do include the woman's say in the matter.
These small, rural towns I'm talking about revolve around football. Everyone in town is at the stadium on Friday night. People get overly invested in high school football to the point of where it clouds judgment and common sense.
This isn't a movie. It's real. Many Americans take football as seriously as death itself. Hence we get stuff like the Sandusky case at Penn State where people went out of their way to protect a child rapist because "he's a good football coach." The corruption reached all the way to the top, all because of devotion to football.
I grew up in situation like this in my state. Football players are put on pedestals in that town, they're supposed to be paragons of masculinity that can "score" with any chick they want because the town regards them all so highly. As a woman you'd have to be an "idiot" to refuse someone like the quarterback or the all conference running back for the last two seasons. It can breed a sense of entitlement into a player, and when that entitlement is directly connected to their masculinity and sports-performance, that can be a dangerous combination.
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Ok, so I recently have been reading a lot of feminist stuff for reasons I won't go into, and something that's been bugging me recently is the idea of "rape culture", in particular because of a letter Patton Oswalt wrote. Specifically, one thing that's been bugging me is the complaint (cited here on wikipedia) that we focus on "how not to be raped" instead of "how not to rape".
On first glance, this does seem sort of offensive - obviously no one is "asking to be raped". Obviously if someone is raped, it's 100% the perpetrator's fault. THAT SAID, we take the "how not to have X happen to you" approach to a LOT of crimes and no one gets offended about it. For example, identity theft. Is it fair that, because there are jerks (pardon my language) who steal your stuff, you should have to go to a lot of trouble (changing passwords, keeping information secure, firewalls, download paranoia, etc) to avoid having it happen to you? No, in my opinion. And same is (in my opinion) true of rape. Is it your RESPONSIBILITY to avoid being raped? No, the burden shouldn't be on you. HOWEVER, whether or not it's my fault, I really don't want to have my identity stolen, so I jump through certain hoops, modify my behavior, go out of my way to avoid having it happen. And I don't see why it would be different for rape - of course it's not your fault if it happened to you, but I don't see what the harm would be in suggesting some tips to avoid it happening, even though you're not obligated to follow through on them, and shouldn't be. But I think conflating "how not to be raped" with victim blaming is way off-base.
Another thing about this that I think is sort of odd is the idea that people should campaign for "how not to rape". Mostly I'm confused by this. Generally-speaking, I feel like it's difficult to have ANY campaign against committing a crime based on appealing to the perpetrator, because usually the perpetrator of the crime KNOWS they're wrong but is doing it anyway. It's a lot easier to appeal to the victims because they've got a lot more interest in preventing it, even though it shouldn't be their responsibility. And if you're worried about X happening to you, it's a lot faster to decrease its chances of happening by doing something yourself, even if it's not fair, than to wait for the slow shifting of culture.
And culture-wise, I don't think justifiably-demonizing rape is necessarily the way that's going to actually make an impact. Currently I feel like, and maybe I'm off-base, that rape is really, really demonized. It's sort of a tired argument, but I've seen a bazillion murders on tv/movies/vgs and very few rapes, and usually they have a way more serious impact - I've never seen an equivalent of "Shoot 'Em Up" (the clive owen movie) or "Kill Bill" with murder replaced by rape and played for laughs or glorified or stylized in any way. Which is good and fine, but I guess my point is that I don't think anyone who still thinks rape is ok is reasonably going to have their mind changed by anything short of clockwork oranging them at this point. I think it may actually have gone too far, to where people don't want to report rape because they know it's going to generate such a firestorm because of how reviled it is. But that's (mostly) just speculation on my part. Actually most of this is, but whatever. As mentioned, I'm probably wrong.
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Phelddagrif - Zirilan
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The lock on your door isn't going to stop a thief who is dead-set on robbing you, but it will make harder (however marginally) and--thus--will discourage some.
Is it true that in some neighborhoods you really don't need to lock your door? Yes. Would it be nicer if we all lived in a society where we don't have to lock our door? Yes.
But, if you want to decrease your chances of being robbed, you should lock your door.
It stops the opportunistic thief, but not the determined one. Basically, you need enough protection to the value of your stuff.
The real issue I take with the analogy is this: A provocatively dressed and attractive girl getting drunk at a frat party is not the same as leaving the door to your house unlocked. It's more comparable to leaving the door open while you have a huge window showing off your well-lit, priceless jewelry collection.
I'd still punish the thief who stole the property, but I'd also tell the homeowner he was an idiot.
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Answer me this: How do you not get raped?
Young men are hormonal idiots who treat any form of perceived advance as an invitation to have sex. Telling them rape is wrong is not what its after, its drilling into that social community's thick skull that weakness is not an invitation to press the advantage.
Oh also, when a person gets their identity stolen, the first questions aren't what their password was or whether or not they had sufficient web encryption. When a 12 year old girl was gang raped by 12 men in Texas, the national discussion was what she was wearing before getting raped by 12 men. That's focus on "how not to get raped" and that's victim blaming through and through.
Hewo wittle fishy!
And to clarify, the 'How not to rape' issue has several components (and these certainly aren't all of them, just the ones I can think of at the moment):
Teaching boys/men that only yes means yes. "No means no" is great in theory but it doesn't really work in reality with an inebriated, unconscious or terrified woman. Teaching boys that only verbal consent means yes avoids a lot of the 'mixed signals' excuses made. Obviously, after you get closer it's a different scenario, but when talking about the first time, we should be teaching children than you should always have verbal consent.
Teaching boys that you aren't entitled to anything from a woman. This is why the 'friend zone' is such a sore topic for me, because it's part of a cultural phenomena where boys expect benefits or reciprocity for things they do. When taken to extremes, it becomes date rape.
Not signaling to children that the victim is at fault by leaping onto the 'she's a ****'/'they're scum' bandwagon before there has even been a trial. In fact, you should always strive to teach your children not to rush to judgment, especially on public cases.
Not encouraging the so-called 'rape culture' (which is a debatable term but one that has roots in real problems) through sports culture. Hometown sports heroes should not get away with everything. We see this in pro players all the time, but even local high school sports players can get special treatments. I was listening to a news article the other day about a college that had fake or ridiculously easy classes for football players to keep their GPAs up (African Studies classes that either didn't exist or consisted of a single paper). We treat them like they're expected to have women throwing themselves at the players, and then they react like jackasses at parties. This obviously doesn't apply to all sports players, but the bad eggs are the ones that ruin everything. These tend to be the most reported on, which by itself shows that this extreme sports fetishism in our culture is a problem.
There are a lot of cultural changes that, if they happened, would prevent a lot of what's going on simply by stopping boys from being *******s.
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I'm not going down the whole "don't dress provocatively" because I don't think that's really part of the problem (except maybe at a society-wide level insomuch as women tend to wear clothes that emphasize their sexual characteristics more than men, which might be part of why - and caused by - the way that women are perceived more sexually than men). But I will say that getting very drunk around people you don't know well is probably a bad idea. I wouldn't do it.
Was that actually a "national discussion" or was that a sleazy attorney's half-assed last-ditch attempt to get his obviously guilty client off, that the media used as an excuse to create inflammatory new stories for ratings? I really doubt any sane person thinks an eleven year old can be asking for anything based on what she was wearing.
Obviously if it happens it's not the victim's fault because of their clothes or whatever, nor is it in any way their fault even if they were very drunk around strangers, but I still don't think it's victim blaming if you advise someone to avoid doing that. For the same reason advising someone to choose a strong password doesn't mean you're saying it's their fault if someone stole their identity. It's just that it's easier and more effective to increase security than to create a culture where identity theft is frowned upon so hard that people stop doing it.
I'm not sure I agree that hormonal idiot teenagers are responsible for many rapes. Unwanted sexual advances, maybe, but not rapes. I think most rapists know what they're doing. If you can find statistics to prove otherwise be my guest.
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Most of that seems like common sense stuff to me, but I'm not everyone (probably). Although I will say that I don't think I've ever explicitly asked (or been asked) for consent...I mean, it's sort of a mood killer, I assume most people (including myself) go mostly off body language, dirty talk, excitement levels, mutual touching, etc...it's usually not exactly subtle. I think anyone claiming mixed signals is just BSing and would have done and said the same with or without education.
Obviously no means no, and so does any kind of pushing away, hesitation, etc. Obviously when alcohol or drugs enter into it things get more difficult to determine on both sides, which is why I avoid them for early dating (or one-time dating, as it were). But I still think (and I could be wrong) that the people perpetrating the crimes are well aware that what they're doing is wrong, and any "she was asking for it", "she was giving me mixed messages" etc is crap they came up with after the fact to justify it to other people. I mean, if the woman is unconscious or terrified and you're going for it...I don't think your health class teacher saying "remember, only yes means yes!" is going to be the thing that stopped you.
Some stats I've found (who knows how accurate) say that a pretty high (I saw 57%) of rapes occur on dates, and most of them involved alcohol. I'm just saying, if I were a woman, I would avoid a first date that involved heavy drinking. It doesn't make it their fault, but it's something I think should be avoided. It's just a bad idea.
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People get angry about giving advice on "how not to be raped" for two major reasons in my experience.
They feel that victims of rape are placed on the spot far too much. You'll stop noticing this if you spend enough time in feminist spaces because the opposite happens there. Plenty of examples of discussion focusing on how rape victims are at fault exist in our culture.
The attempts at advice are very poor. I don't know of any evidence that dressing "provocatively" increased your chances of being raped, for example. A lot of people also perceive that kind of advice as a sidelong way of controlling how women dress.
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Perfect.
How about -
Keep your open beverages in your hand or in sight at all times, and don't accept drinks from a stranger, if they want to buy you a drink, go to the bar and let the bartender make it for you.
Always have a true and trusted friend or two in the wings.
Carry a defensive weapon of some kind, and know how to use it.
Be aware of your surroundings, and identify exits.
Advice like the above is useful, fair, and also gender neutral. Not full proof obviously, nothing ever is. Also, rather common sense and therefore, people should be raised with those kind of street smarts and shouldn't need to be told, but tell them anyways.
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The problem is that this focus also takes agency away from the actual perpetrator of the rape. As I said, it's really easy to not rape someone. Just don't rape. (Seriously, if she wants it, it will be an emphatic, enthusiastic "Yes!" that makes the old lady a few feet away order what she's having.)
(At the risk of grammar Nazism, the verb "to be raped" is in the passive voice.)
On phasing:
I agree but I didn't say otherwise.
Of course you can't prevent anything 100% of the time - locks example, identity thief example, etc. But a certain amount of common sense on the first few dates - stay in public places, don't get overly inebriated - shouldn't be very intrusive and could definitely protect you. You're probably better off avoiding a lot of drinks for the first few dates anyway, but that's just my opinion. I'm not saying it's your fault if you want to get drunk, but I'm saying if your goal is to avoid getting raped, not getting drunk is probably a good idea with someone you don't know well.
We also have a (albeit less fervent) habit of focusing on "how not to be robbed" or "how not to have your identity stolen" way more than "how not to steal". Because thieves and rapists are *******s and they don't care that you don't want them to. Hence they have no motivation to care.
Also I'm not sure what you mean about grammar Nazism, you're correct but what's your point?
Also I've never heard anyone shout "Yes!" in response to someone asking whether they'd care for some sex. It's more of a pulling-each-others'-pants-off-while-breathing-heavily sort of action. Nor are we usually within several feet of an old lady. But maybe you're from someplace weird.
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I think what he's saying is that they're treated to think that they're entitled to women, so they take it for granted that all women want to have sex with them, and thus a "no" must be a "yes".
At least, that's my interpretation. Not saying I agree with it, I don't have any facts. Although I'm in favor of anything that involves taking professional team sports down a peg.
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Phelddagrif - Zirilan
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Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
The doctrine of "enthusiastic consent" is a awful one that accomplishes little more than making people feel like victims because they don't share a particular view of sex.
As someone who grew up in Small Town Football Land, many of the football players are taught that they're God's gift to the town and are treated as such. If they engage in any crimes (be it sexual or otherwise), the attitude of the authorities is that "boys will be boys." The authorities in these small towns go out of their way to make sure the stars of the football team are kept out of trouble and with passing grades (often dubiously--there are cases where these players pass while flunking the tests and not turning in the homework).
There is a town I pass through all the time where their only claim to fame is producing a really good football team that has went to the State Championship. (To a lesser extent, they are somewhat known for being the home of Stone Cold Steve Austin, although in announcements they say he's from Victoria when he's actually from Cuero.) What are the most common crimes in this town? Domestic violence and drunk driving.
These small, rural towns I'm talking about revolve around football. Everyone in town is at the stadium on Friday night. People get overly invested in high school football to the point of where it clouds judgment and common sense.
This isn't a movie. It's real. Many Americans take football as seriously as death itself. Hence we get stuff like the Sandusky case at Penn State where people went out of their way to protect a child rapist because "he's a good football coach." The corruption reached all the way to the top, all because of devotion to football.
It's a rape enabling factor when money/status can get you out of legal trouble. It's not only a rape enabling factor, it's a crime enabling factor.
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The case of Daisy Coleman is similar, just replace coach with players.
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Let me tell you something ladies there are a lot of men who can look at a woman (no matter how she is dressed) admire her beauty and go about there day with not the slightest desire to rape anyone.
To think that a man cannot resist his desire is a really bad gender stereotype. One we should all resist.
And yet in most reported instances of rape, the perpetrators are male. I don't think anyone here is insinuating that all men are rapists or even capable of rape, but in discussion of rape against women, it's not unusual that the assumption is that men are the perpetrators.
This thread is in fact discussing that men are capable of restraining sexual desires and that we ought to.
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1. Part of why we're so resentful of "how to not get raped", but not "how not to get robbed", is that the former has a history of victim-blaming that the latter doesn't. In the not-to-distant past, rape was commonly viewed as the woman's fault. In many parts of the world, it still is. Ergo when it comes up, "how not to get raped" by default comes with the subtext "Not getting raped is your responsibility", because that IS what it meant for the past thousand years. This applies doubly so when the conversation is in text form, since one can't use intonation and body language to indicate that they are not saying this from a place of judgment but instead from a place of empathy/sympathy.
2. The concept of rape culture, from my perspective, is less about rape per se then it is about boundaries, and a lack of respect thereof. This stems a great deal from the atrociously ****ty sex ed in our country. Most of it consists of "here's what sex is, and you should next have it til marriage, the end." Nowhere does it include what is legally considered consent. Boys are left to fill in the blanks, and while you may think it would be common sense, young boys still get it very, very wrong on a regular basis. And why wouldn't they? Teenagers get all sorts of stuff wrong all time when they're unguided and unsupervised, why would this be any different?
3. A certain amount of it comes from the fact that "don't rape" is inherently in conflict with the concept of masculinity our society likes to push. No, men are not sex-crazed monsters by default, but there's a lot in media that suggests they're supposed to be. Men are encouraged to draw self-esteem from aggression and sexual prowess. It creates a culture in which a man's worth is hinged on his ability to "get some", which subsequently give men way too much incentive to pursue sex at all costs - costs which can and often do include the woman's say in the matter.
4. On getting consent - yes, you do need to ask. Kill the mood you say? Not being creative enough, says I. It's a simple matter of "Tell me how much you want me baby!", or some variation thereof. It's really not hard to work it into dirty-talk. As far as being afraid of things being misconstrued - that's why you should be upfront about your intentions. If you aren't sure that your non-verbal communication is getting the point across, BE EXPLICIT and use words! There are plenty of guys I know who have found ways to do this effectively, I'm sure the rest of you can too
It's said in coded language, to borrow a feminist phrase.
Yes, this what "don't rape" campaigns need to focus on. Someone at my uni put up ridiculous posters that just said "Boys: Don't Rape" on them. No one believes that rape is okay, they're just not clear on what rape is. Getting people to be aware that you shouldn't have sex with people who are intoxicated (or let people you know do so) is particularly important.
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I grew up in situation like this in my state. Football players are put on pedestals in that town, they're supposed to be paragons of masculinity that can "score" with any chick they want because the town regards them all so highly. As a woman you'd have to be an "idiot" to refuse someone like the quarterback or the all conference running back for the last two seasons. It can breed a sense of entitlement into a player, and when that entitlement is directly connected to their masculinity and sports-performance, that can be a dangerous combination.