So, the question I'm presenting here, for discussion (and I'd actually like a discussion), is what is causing this specific debate forum to push further to the left?
There's no doubt in my mind, or really anyone who can take an impartial view of the matter's mind, that over the past few years the debate forum has started tipping, with increasing speed, to the left [relative to American right-left political standpoints].
So: why? and can we (or should we) attempt to correct that?
In my opinion we are seeing a sounding board affect. People agree with each other, drawing more people in who agree, and edging people who disagree out. As the positions continues to shift the effect is amplified, resulting in an inevitable (absent any correction) pushing out of the other side.
The sounding board pushes people out for two reasons:
1) nobody likes being ganged up on. When it's 1 person verses 10 people, and the 1 person has no obligation to stay -- the path of least resistance is to leave.
2) Frequently, with a sound board vilification of the other side is not only common - but goes without comment, whereas any statement even smelling of vilification of the sounding side is met with harsh rebuke.
these two factors combine, make it very difficult for the other side to make an edge in, resulting in the balance falling further and further toward one side.
I know a few libertarians/anarchists are here, like myself and Joss for instance...
and don't forget Bocephus.
Do you mean right as in religious based conservatives? Or right as in constitutional minarchists (like me), or right as in fiscal conservatives, or right as in pro-life fundies?
There are so many different lefties, and many different righties.
I don't think this forum is too far left - I just happen to realize that most of the heavy debate issues make the differences between the left and right shine brighter than usual.
(abortion, god, guns, crime, etc)
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Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
i think hes saying why do most arguments sway to one side just because a majority scares off individuals with opposing views? or am I completely wrong haha.
I would actually say that this board is focusing on the center. Before we had more posters from all over the political spectrum but we've been losing those on the edges. It has been a while since we had a communist or leftist anarchist posting here.
Of course I get regular media exposure to European politics (I watch Polish satelite TV) so I do not subscribe to the American skewed left-right divide. Thus I see this forum skewing toward the center while others see it skewing left.
That said there is a strong group of active posters that share a similar range of political beliefs and they can swamp a discussion with their posts.
I feel like these boards have really mellowed out on the militant politicos and people are becoming more about just debating.
There was a time on these boards where you couldn't go one thread without invoking "Faux News" or "The Bush Administration" and I think we have finally, as a debate community, moved away from that.
I really enjoy discussing things with people on here, even when we are in disagreement.
Age and European views v. US views would be my guess.
Age primarily because people who go on here are young, and youngsters are generally left leaning. Euro is just the general political view of the world is left of the general US view.
Well, the debate forum is mostly populated by people with beliefs far left of the (American) center. (I assume you're referring to American left and right political beliefs.)
Of course, I doubt the majority of the posts here see it that way. People have a tendency to believe themselves centrists or moderates.
If someone can't hold their own against 10 people then maybe they shouldn't debate. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 people will have something worthwhile to say, in which you would address the lion's share of your post to them. The other 9 are just one liners and you shouldn't sweat them.
As for the composition of the board, whether or not it is left or right is irrelevant. If someone is so fed up they can just leave and go to other forums. The idea that you have to stay on the board because something is seriously wrong on the internet then there are bigger issues at hand than the composition of the board.
If you're looking for actual debate with a wide variety of perspectives I recommend Historum or Political Forum. I actually found old people I used to forum with on Myspace on there. The people there write extremely long and well-thought out posts with actual legit sources (not Wikipedia). The people on Historum generally have at least a MA and I encountered quite a few ABDs.
As a long-time lurker I suggest you reconsider this view: "There's no doubt in my mind, or really anyone who can take an impartial view of the matter's mind, that over the past few years the debate forum has started tipping, with increasing speed, to the left [relative to American right-left political standpoints]."
First, you have created this statement in a way that undercuts any disagreement (i.e. "...or really anyone who can take an impartial view of the matter's mind..."). Second, and more importantly, you are assuming that where you place the center is correct. Perhaps the debate forum, and, again perhaps, the nation, is in the "center" and it is you that are fringe.
For the record, I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying that you are assuming the left slant without proving it or even defining it.
Does anyone think it odd that Blatch started an inflammatory thread where they complain about getting ganged up on ideologically, and that is the most logical conclusion of where this thread is going?
I tihnk that we've seen most of the social conservatives disappear on the site, because they are just..disappearing in general. Marijuana is becoming more legal. Homosexuality is becoming more widely accepted. Religion is becoming more marginalized. Abortion isn't really a hot issue right now. Conservatives are just losing/have lost all of their social battles.
When it comes to non-social issues, I would say that people are becoming more Libertarian than anything else. But that is still not a particularly Conservative viewpoint either.
Age is a huge factor. The older people get, the closer they get to the middle. So people that were younger and heavy right, are now starting to lean a closer to the middle seeming like a lean to the left. It also depends on the subject. It may be the subjects that are popular get a natural left lean to them.
Age is a huge factor. The older people get, the closer they get to the middle. So people that were younger and heavy right, are now starting to lean a closer to the middle seeming like a lean to the left. It also depends on the subject. It may be the subjects that are popular get a natural left lean to them.
I find it interesting that many Tea Partiers used to be Hippies. It is seemingly opposite, yet similar in terms of idealism. (I'm not knocking Tea Partiers by the way, I know a Tea Party leader who is the most charming, funniest person you will ever meet and I plan on voting for that person.)
Makes me wonder if the libertarian youth will turn into communists.
Don't know where I'll be in 20 years. I'm actually a registered Republican. I found Republicanism more tolerable than Rick Perry and never bothered to change it.
If you agree with my observation that bLatch is a moderate-leaning conservative, some of the statements from his first post could be equivalently re-phrased as follows:
So, the question I'm presenting here, for discussion (and I'd actually like a discussion), is what is causing this specific debate forum to push further to the leftaway from my views?
There's no doubt in my mind, or really anyone who can take an impartial view of the matter's mind, that over the past few years the debate forum has started tipping, with increasing speed, to the leftaway from my views [relative to American right-left political standpoints].
So: why? and can we (or should we) attempt to correct that?
In my opinion we are seeing a sounding board affect. People agree with each other, drawing more people in who agree, and edging people who disagree out. As the positions continues to shift the effect is amplified, resulting in an inevitable (absent any correction) pushing out of the other side.
The sounding board pushes people out for two reasons:
1) nobody likes being ganged up on. When it's [the] 1 person [whom agrees with me] verses 10 people, and the 1 person has no obligation to stay -- the path of least resistance is to leave.
2) Frequently, with a sound board vilification of the othermy side is not only common - but goes without comment, whereas any statement even smelling of vilification of the sounding side [I disagree with] is met with harsh rebuke.
these two factors combine, make it very difficult for the othermy side to make an edge in, resulting in the balance falling further and further toward one side.
Thoughts?
And you know what? You're right. This board, over time, has been gradually disagreeing with you more. And I can understand why it sucks to constantly feel like it's you against the world, that everyone's all conspiring to knock you down, and so on. It is angering when you feel like no one else "gets" what you're saying, and it hurts. It is doubly so when it seems like they're ignoring what you're saying just to prove you wrong. It sucks when you feel like anyone who had your back is being driven away maliciously.
But. BUT. The fact that a lot of people are disagreeing with you is not anyone's job to "fix". You believe what you want, they believe what they want, and there's really nothing that says the two beliefs have to match up. There's literally no such thing as "too far" to the left, right, up, down, front, center, or whatever other description you have for people's opinions. There's nothing inherently wrong with everyone here disagreeing with you (or anyone, for that matter). It doesn't automatically mean that the people who disagree with you have been engaging in unfair debate tactics (as you allege above).
Now, if you believe someone is unfairly engaging in disrespectful debate, then you have a few options. You can just ignore it. If it's too severe to ignore, you can take it up with the mods. If they do not wish to do anything about it...then yeah, you probably should leave. Clearly the debate rules here do not cater to your debate preferences, and you would be better served taking your discussions to a forum that does cater to your preferences. However, these things are issues with how the mods have chosen to run this board, NOT with the individual members; as such, this has no place in the general forums.
I agree with the sounding board effect, but there is more to it than just that.
Predominantly, the internet--itself--is lefty.
Young people and people with advance degrees tend to be progressive. AKA, the kind of people most likely to post on message boards.
Absolutely this as a starting point, and the most vocal people in this group tend to proliferate here, pushing out the furthest-right people until there are none left. From my observation and half-participation, it seems to me that anyone that falls on the right side of the spectrum eventually gets tired of the same old BS that the regulars post in response to everything they say, and they just leave. I don't recall a single time I've logged into debate and not felt the SMH-s coming on. You can only yell at a wall to move so many times before you give up.
To clarify, the left-right spectrum I'm referring to (and blatch, i think) is the american one, and appropriately so considering that the vast majority of issues we discuss here are centered on american policy, culture, and social climes. That being said, the fact that a bunch of the furthest-left people here are arguing semantics kind of highlights to me why conservatives can't stand being in this subforum often.
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Commander Decks G MGC WB Teysa Tokens BR Wortsnort UG 23.5-No Edric URG Noncombo Animar GUB Damia Stax WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion WBR Daddy Tariel UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB WURG Glint-Eye Combo
Absolutely this as a starting point, and the most vocal people in this group tend to proliferate here, pushing out the furthest-right people until there are none left. From my observation and half-participation, it seems to me that anyone that falls on the right side of the spectrum eventually gets tired of the same old BS that the regulars post in response to everything they say, and they just leave. I don't recall a single time I've logged into debate and not felt the SMH-s coming on. You can only yell at a wall to move so many times before you give up.
The discussion on "are right wingers inherently racist" has a great deal of back and forth about how to talk about race and why people take political action on it differently. Despite what libertarian propaganda tells people you can't write a speech that makes a person fall to their knees in realization that you have had THE TRUTH all along. It's neither realistic nor healthy.
I will note that people who believing yelling is the only way to knock down a brick wall have no business being in the demolitions business.
I think it's pretty clear bLatch is referring to the fact that there is a general slant away from conservative Christian viewpoints.
Which, no, I don't find problematic at all.
The thing about the concept of the marketplace of ideas is that it is a marketplace, and like all marketplaces, is subject to the invisible hand. Ideas necessarily are and should be in contention with one another. This is how we weigh them to find the truth and to find where we stand.
As LadyLuck said, it's one thing to say that people aren't engaging in fair debate, but it's another thing entirely if people are engaging in honest debate and happen to disagree with you. If that's the case, there's no problem, because the free exchange of ideas is maintained. This is what a healthy debate forum should look like.
You seem to have a problem with your ideas being in contention with other ideas, except that is exactly what should be happening. You're trying to get people to switch viewpoints to your idea. Well, your idea isn't the only one being expressed on this forum, so it's up to you to demonstrate why your idea is superior to others. If I wanted you to change your viewpoint to my idea, you would ask me for reasons why, and they would have to be compelling ones, because right now you believe your idea to be superior, right? Well, should not the same be required of you? Shouldn't you be required to present reasons justifying your cause?
And if no one's buying your idea, that could mean that no one's listening to your reasons, but it might also mean your case just isn't a compelling one.
Does anyone think it odd that Blatch started an inflammatory thread where they complain about getting ganged up on ideologically, and that is the most logical conclusion of where this thread is going?
There is nothing inflammatory about bLatch's post.
I'm sure we'll all miss such a sparkling paragon of maturity.
Ok, I know we were all thinking it, but if we start sniping people with quips, this whole thread is going to degenerate. This topic has the promise of going somewhere.
The discussion on "are right wingers inherently racist" has a great deal of back and forth about how to talk about race and why people take political action on it differently. Despite what libertarian propaganda tells people you can't write a speech that makes a person fall to their knees in realization that you have had THE TRUTH all along. It's neither realistic nor healthy.
I will note that people who believing yelling is the only way to knock down a brick wall have no business being in the demolitions business.
I wasn't saying that every single topic ever posted follows the same pattern - just a large majority do.
I'm sure we'll all miss such a sparkling paragon of maturity.
I'd like to point out that, to me, you're one of the biggest problems on here. Every post of yours that I can remember is either an insult or dripping with a disgusting amount of sarcasm, and you (unfortunately) rarely get called out on it or stop. Its people like you that drive away opposing viewpoints.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
EDIT: Just one look at the duck dynasty thread and it should become absolutely clear why anyone who falls outside of the american left is staying away from this subforum.
1. This is a MTG site after all. Gamers as a whole tend to be left-leaning. If they are not economically leaning to the left, then they are at the very least socially liberal. When's the last time you saw someone who is socially conservative playing Magic?
2. International posters. European countries (including Nordic countries as well as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) tend to prefer policies that give the government more control over an individual's life, especially in the economy.
But even with that all said, there are people here on the right if you look close enough.
- mystery45 is a modern conservative.
- Fresh Prince is likely a constitutional conservative. I'd probably say the same thing for Vestar too.
- IcecreamMan80 is a minarchist.
- Undisputed, ljossberir, and myself are anarcho-capitalists.
There's no doubt in my mind, or really anyone who can take an impartial view of the matter's mind, that over the past few years the debate forum has started tipping, with increasing speed, to the left [relative to American right-left political standpoints].
So: why? and can we (or should we) attempt to correct that?
In my opinion we are seeing a sounding board affect. People agree with each other, drawing more people in who agree, and edging people who disagree out. As the positions continues to shift the effect is amplified, resulting in an inevitable (absent any correction) pushing out of the other side.
The sounding board pushes people out for two reasons:
1) nobody likes being ganged up on. When it's 1 person verses 10 people, and the 1 person has no obligation to stay -- the path of least resistance is to leave.
2) Frequently, with a sound board vilification of the other side is not only common - but goes without comment, whereas any statement even smelling of vilification of the sounding side is met with harsh rebuke.
these two factors combine, make it very difficult for the other side to make an edge in, resulting in the balance falling further and further toward one side.
Thoughts?
I know a few libertarians/anarchists are here, like myself and Joss for instance...
and don't forget Bocephus.
Do you mean right as in religious based conservatives? Or right as in constitutional minarchists (like me), or right as in fiscal conservatives, or right as in pro-life fundies?
There are so many different lefties, and many different righties.
I don't think this forum is too far left - I just happen to realize that most of the heavy debate issues make the differences between the left and right shine brighter than usual.
(abortion, god, guns, crime, etc)
Thanks to Xenphire @ Inkfox for the amazing new sig
“Thus strangely are our souls constructed, and by slight ligaments
are we bound to prosperity and ruin.”
― Mary Shelley, Frankenstein
Of course I get regular media exposure to European politics (I watch Polish satelite TV) so I do not subscribe to the American skewed left-right divide. Thus I see this forum skewing toward the center while others see it skewing left.
That said there is a strong group of active posters that share a similar range of political beliefs and they can swamp a discussion with their posts.
There was a time on these boards where you couldn't go one thread without invoking "Faux News" or "The Bush Administration" and I think we have finally, as a debate community, moved away from that.
I really enjoy discussing things with people on here, even when we are in disagreement.
Age primarily because people who go on here are young, and youngsters are generally left leaning. Euro is just the general political view of the world is left of the general US view.
I'd say the board is center-left.
Of course, I doubt the majority of the posts here see it that way. People have a tendency to believe themselves centrists or moderates.
If someone can't hold their own against 10 people then maybe they shouldn't debate. Maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 people will have something worthwhile to say, in which you would address the lion's share of your post to them. The other 9 are just one liners and you shouldn't sweat them.
As for the composition of the board, whether or not it is left or right is irrelevant. If someone is so fed up they can just leave and go to other forums. The idea that you have to stay on the board because something is seriously wrong on the internet then there are bigger issues at hand than the composition of the board.
If you're looking for actual debate with a wide variety of perspectives I recommend Historum or Political Forum. I actually found old people I used to forum with on Myspace on there. The people there write extremely long and well-thought out posts with actual legit sources (not Wikipedia). The people on Historum generally have at least a MA and I encountered quite a few ABDs.
First, you have created this statement in a way that undercuts any disagreement (i.e. "...or really anyone who can take an impartial view of the matter's mind..."). Second, and more importantly, you are assuming that where you place the center is correct. Perhaps the debate forum, and, again perhaps, the nation, is in the "center" and it is you that are fringe.
For the record, I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying that you are assuming the left slant without proving it or even defining it.
When it comes to non-social issues, I would say that people are becoming more Libertarian than anything else. But that is still not a particularly Conservative viewpoint either.
I find it interesting that many Tea Partiers used to be Hippies. It is seemingly opposite, yet similar in terms of idealism. (I'm not knocking Tea Partiers by the way, I know a Tea Party leader who is the most charming, funniest person you will ever meet and I plan on voting for that person.)
Makes me wonder if the libertarian youth will turn into communists.
Don't know where I'll be in 20 years. I'm actually a registered Republican. I found Republicanism more tolerable than Rick Perry and never bothered to change it.
And you know what? You're right. This board, over time, has been gradually disagreeing with you more. And I can understand why it sucks to constantly feel like it's you against the world, that everyone's all conspiring to knock you down, and so on. It is angering when you feel like no one else "gets" what you're saying, and it hurts. It is doubly so when it seems like they're ignoring what you're saying just to prove you wrong. It sucks when you feel like anyone who had your back is being driven away maliciously.
But. BUT. The fact that a lot of people are disagreeing with you is not anyone's job to "fix". You believe what you want, they believe what they want, and there's really nothing that says the two beliefs have to match up. There's literally no such thing as "too far" to the left, right, up, down, front, center, or whatever other description you have for people's opinions. There's nothing inherently wrong with everyone here disagreeing with you (or anyone, for that matter). It doesn't automatically mean that the people who disagree with you have been engaging in unfair debate tactics (as you allege above).
Now, if you believe someone is unfairly engaging in disrespectful debate, then you have a few options. You can just ignore it. If it's too severe to ignore, you can take it up with the mods. If they do not wish to do anything about it...then yeah, you probably should leave. Clearly the debate rules here do not cater to your debate preferences, and you would be better served taking your discussions to a forum that does cater to your preferences. However, these things are issues with how the mods have chosen to run this board, NOT with the individual members; as such, this has no place in the general forums.
I mean, Magic is becoming more of an international game, so maybe there are more non-American forum members and therefore more non-American debaters?
Art is life itself.
Please describe the american center and the american right.
Predominantly, the internet--itself--is lefty.
Young people and people with advance degrees tend to be progressive. AKA, the kind of people most likely to post on message boards.
Absolutely this as a starting point, and the most vocal people in this group tend to proliferate here, pushing out the furthest-right people until there are none left. From my observation and half-participation, it seems to me that anyone that falls on the right side of the spectrum eventually gets tired of the same old BS that the regulars post in response to everything they say, and they just leave. I don't recall a single time I've logged into debate and not felt the SMH-s coming on. You can only yell at a wall to move so many times before you give up.
To clarify, the left-right spectrum I'm referring to (and blatch, i think) is the american one, and appropriately so considering that the vast majority of issues we discuss here are centered on american policy, culture, and social climes. That being said, the fact that a bunch of the furthest-left people here are arguing semantics kind of highlights to me why conservatives can't stand being in this subforum often.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
The discussion on "are right wingers inherently racist" has a great deal of back and forth about how to talk about race and why people take political action on it differently. Despite what libertarian propaganda tells people you can't write a speech that makes a person fall to their knees in realization that you have had THE TRUTH all along. It's neither realistic nor healthy.
I will note that people who believing yelling is the only way to knock down a brick wall have no business being in the demolitions business.
Standard: UWG Bant Control
EDH: UArcum Dagsson
Modern: Affinity
Vintage: BUR Grixis Control
Legacy: W Mono-White : U Merfolk : BUG Esper Stoneblade : RBG Punishing Jund : B Reanimator : RU Sneak and Show : GB Infect : RG Red/Green Devotion : RUG RUG Delver
I'm sure we'll all miss such a sparkling paragon of maturity.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
Which, no, I don't find problematic at all.
The thing about the concept of the marketplace of ideas is that it is a marketplace, and like all marketplaces, is subject to the invisible hand. Ideas necessarily are and should be in contention with one another. This is how we weigh them to find the truth and to find where we stand.
As LadyLuck said, it's one thing to say that people aren't engaging in fair debate, but it's another thing entirely if people are engaging in honest debate and happen to disagree with you. If that's the case, there's no problem, because the free exchange of ideas is maintained. This is what a healthy debate forum should look like.
You seem to have a problem with your ideas being in contention with other ideas, except that is exactly what should be happening. You're trying to get people to switch viewpoints to your idea. Well, your idea isn't the only one being expressed on this forum, so it's up to you to demonstrate why your idea is superior to others. If I wanted you to change your viewpoint to my idea, you would ask me for reasons why, and they would have to be compelling ones, because right now you believe your idea to be superior, right? Well, should not the same be required of you? Shouldn't you be required to present reasons justifying your cause?
And if no one's buying your idea, that could mean that no one's listening to your reasons, but it might also mean your case just isn't a compelling one.
There is nothing inflammatory about bLatch's post.
Ok, I know we were all thinking it, but if we start sniping people with quips, this whole thread is going to degenerate. This topic has the promise of going somewhere.
I wasn't saying that every single topic ever posted follows the same pattern - just a large majority do.
I'd like to point out that, to me, you're one of the biggest problems on here. Every post of yours that I can remember is either an insult or dripping with a disgusting amount of sarcasm, and you (unfortunately) rarely get called out on it or stop. Its people like you that drive away opposing viewpoints.
Flame infraction. - Blinking Spirit
EDIT: Just one look at the duck dynasty thread and it should become absolutely clear why anyone who falls outside of the american left is staying away from this subforum.
G MGC
WB Teysa Tokens
BR Wortsnort
UG 23.5-No Edric
URG Noncombo Animar
GUB Damia Stax
WBR Alesha Hatebear Recursion
WBR Daddy Tariel
UBR [Je]love-a Your Deck
GWU Almost Critterless Enchantress
WUB Sydri+Artifacts=WUB
WURG Glint-Eye Combo
1. This is a MTG site after all. Gamers as a whole tend to be left-leaning. If they are not economically leaning to the left, then they are at the very least socially liberal. When's the last time you saw someone who is socially conservative playing Magic?
2. International posters. European countries (including Nordic countries as well as Canada, Australia, and New Zealand) tend to prefer policies that give the government more control over an individual's life, especially in the economy.
But even with that all said, there are people here on the right if you look close enough.
- mystery45 is a modern conservative.
- Fresh Prince is likely a constitutional conservative. I'd probably say the same thing for Vestar too.
- IcecreamMan80 is a minarchist.
- Undisputed, ljossberir, and myself are anarcho-capitalists.