Should We Go Over The "Fiscal Cliff"?

  • #152
    The reason why we have service jobs and not production jobs is because both of those types of jobs *suck* but there's no way to offshore the service jobs (well, the ones that absolutely require actual physical contact) to the "losers" in oh, china.

    (Note, I'm not looking down on the people who have to do these jobs, because they're *vitally* important for the smooth functioning of society. It's no fun being on the bottom of the totem pole, but you're holding up the guys above.)

    This is also why I see political talk about "controlling our borders" as economically insane. Those immigrants aren't really taking jobs from Americans, Americans don't want those jobs. Spending 8 or more hours a day picking strawberries is miserable.
  • #153
    Quote from Surging Chaos
    Quote from Yorutenchi
    Then perhaps its a good idea for them to try and fix the situations that are causing the welare state? Several people seem to believe that the reason we have so many poor people and unemployed is because the government gives them money. Its a logical fallicy. If we strip them of any income then crime will skyrocket. Great plan.

    Instead lets set up an economy where people can ACTUALLY LIVE off of the wages they get. Make some cuts and make programs run more efficently for sure...but too gut them would lead to economic ruin.

    The giant engine that fuels our economy (the buyers not the suppliers) will collapse and thus the suppliers also collapse under the weight of the unsold merchandise. Sounds fun.


    The fact that we have a consumption-driven economy is a huge reason why we are in this mess to begin with. We need to stop consuming so much and start producing more. The jobs we need to create need to be jobs that increase our productive capacity. That means more factory-based jobs and less service-based jobs. These are the kinds of jobs that unemployed people can work in. Logically you might ask "well why don't we have these jobs here and why are they overseas?" It's because we as a nation are overtaxed and overregulated. We need to encourage businesses to invest here instead of abroad, and that's not going to happen with an archaic tax code and mountains of unneeded regulations.

    The only reason we have gotten away with all this consumption from foreigners is that they keep selling us their products and they buy our dollars. That can't continue forever though. Foreigners will eventually realize that the US will never be able to repay its debts from the treasuries it sells to them. That will cause interest rates to skyrocket and we will be in major trouble when that occurs.


    I refute...everything. Source source source source source.

    1) We are a consumer based economy. the REASON buisnesses are so sucessful here is the market. If we stop this market then there is no longer a good economy here.

    2) Why do we need to have producing jobs? Factory work is outdated. Machines are far more effective. This kind of thinking is about 80 years out dated. Science and technology is where the jobs need to be. More skilled work. We need to build things. Good things. Manufacturing is a good thing that we need to do but thats not a reason to say "well thats what the poor need to do"

    3) Overrugulation isn't the root of the problem here in America. That is a conservative lie. The problem is the system is broken. The regulation is a response by the government to try and fix the brokenness. Companies have a lot less regulation that people like to believe. The reason they are in china is not due to regulations and jumping through hoops but rather they can get away with treating the workers like sub-human animals that work for a pay rate that if put in America would mean that they would STILL be on the tit of the government. That won't fix the "welfare state" but make the rich a lot richer. Thats the true intention there. The regulation really isn't as bad as people say. The taxes are at a record low. WHAT regulations are "over regulating" the market?

    4) And its a global market. The idea you are proposing sound a lot like you think America is an independent market. While in truth the entire world is intertwined with the American market. We get our products from all around the world but that doesn't mean that we can fix the economy by producing more raw materials....
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  • #154
    Just to rewind a sec, I didn't see this before - which disability was he applying under?


    he went with his military pension over the disability. This was a long term thing that just started affecting him ol about 5 years ago.

    He has filed for SSD at least 2 or 3 times and finally got it on the third time. yet it took 5 years of medical records and a lawyer to do it.

    yet a girl can have a baby or multiple babies no way to pay for them and get free assistence.

    You feel differently?


    Just with how you described it.

    Republican Plan: empower businesses to create jobs and the economy. Keep investments and investment money safe and continue to encourage people to invest.

    Reform the social programs that they actually work properly without causing the red ink that they are.

    Democrat plan: tax the rich (even though they are already paying most of the taxes). Spend that money on new spending programs not reducing the deficit. Claim we need more revenue and continue to raise taxes.

    Let me guess you feel Obama is actually satan in disguise and Jesus is speaking at the next RNC?


    Nope not at all. The same as people thought bush was incompetant as a president obama is equally incompetant only he is taking the country on a rail we might not recover from.

    He has 0 leadership capabilities and the only thing he can do is stamp his feet and blame someone else for his failure to get a bill out of congress.

    reagan bush Sr, clinton, and Bush Jr. all had to deal with opposing congresses and they all managed to do it. even congresses that tried to utterly defy them and purposely stall them. yet they managed to do it. why? leadership.

    You stopped making sense. IF that were the case then there would be nothing but "owners" and "lazy people".


    It makes perfect sense. people that are businesses owners realized they can make more as business owners. that doesn't mean everyone will become one. it isn't an easy job. it requires a lot of hard work and most don't take paychecks etc for basic needs their first year or two.

    they work 80-90 hours a week.

    The only reason you think that the business world is being held back by the government is because someone extremely rich paid a lot of money to make sure thats what you thought.


    Not at all. Government doesn't pay my bills, government doesn't keep food on my table. who i work for does. I see money go to the federal government but get very little on return for it (federal government not state).

    The only return that i do see is the military helping protect me and my family.

    All these other social spending programs that they come up with not for me. Don't qualify i work have a good job. so i get a big screw you.

    Unions aren't some evil essence that is out to greedily take up every dime of the company.


    yet they continue to do it. Why do you think most of the manufactoring base is moving to the south? why do you think more and more factories are moving to the south? why? to escape the union garbage. it is to expensive and not worth their time.

    it is cheaper for them to offer similar benefits and a 401k then have to deal with union bosses looking to fatten their pocket. you think corporations are greedy and crooked you are giving a blind eye to these union bosses who careless about the people they represent.

    Thats not true and you need to learn more about how unions work and the history of them.


    I know all about unions i came from a union state. my dad and bother both work for unions. for a time they did what they were suppose to do. now they don't. now they are just as corrupt or more corrupt than the companies.

    Unions work WITH the company and in some cases make companies work better.


    maybe some of the smaller ones yea, but the big ones like the auto workers, teamsters and others no.

    they don't.

    They also make sure that the owner doesn't rake in 10 million when he could take in 8 million to provide better wages and conditions for the workers.


    then the employee's should invest in the company and become stock holders and then have a say in the matter.

    that 2m that the union thinks they should take could have provided those things if they were needed. it isn't up to the union what the owner should or shouldn't get it isn't their company.

    if they want to be part owners of the company then they need to invest in that company.

    No union wants the company to go under. If you seriously think that unions are the problem then you need to look into the facts more.


    If they weren't a problem then companies wouldn't be moving like mad to right to work states to avoid them.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    as a side note looks like a deal on taxes has been reached but won't be voted on tonight. it will probably be put into effect tomorrow.


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  • #155
    You and I shall never see eye to eye on the matter. That much is clear. I still stand by my statements that the idea that Government broke capitalism is a lie. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

    Unions are a necessary thing. Otherwise you leave it with the haves and the have nots with no way to claw the way up. Most people can't start their own company. You need money. If you have no money (say 90% of Americans) then there is no hope at all for you to get the compnay started. Like you said. It takes a lot of start up money and no profit for up to 2 years. The system is broken and government wasn't the one that broke it.

    The reason companies are moving away from unions is because they are whiny and don't like the idea of not getting the maximum profit at the expense of others. Plain and simnple. There are not other explinations. The government mediates between unions and owners specifically to make a compromise and make sure both are getting a fair deal. If a union asks for too much then they are in the wrong. But to say "unions" are destroying the economy is nothing more than pointing fingers and whining about a broken system and wanting to blame everything but the problem. Its the government, its the regulations, its the unions, its the poor, is the welfare state. never is it about the people walking away filthy rich while forcing others to take payment so low that even when working full time they need assistance to live at the most basic level. No. NO its never their fault. Ever. Thats what bothers me.
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  • #156
    Quote from tuxdev
    The reason why we have service jobs and not production jobs is because both of those types of jobs *suck* but there's no way to offshore the service jobs (well, the ones that absolutely require actual physical contact) to the "losers" in oh, china.

    (Note, I'm not looking down on the people who have to do these jobs, because they're *vitally* important for the smooth functioning of society. It's no fun being on the bottom of the totem pole, but you're holding up the guys above.)

    This is also why I see political talk about "controlling our borders" as economically insane. Those immigrants aren't really taking jobs from Americans, Americans don't want those jobs. Spending 8 or more hours a day picking strawberries is miserable.


    All you are saying is todays Americans are spoiled and that type of work is below them. Americans have to swallow their pride and start doing the work that is there and stop complaining there is nothing for them to do.
  • #157
    They also make sure that the owner doesn't rake in 10 million when he could take in 8 million to provide better wages and conditions for the workers.


    then the employee's should invest in the company and become stock holders and then have a say in the matter.

    that 2m that the union thinks they should take could have provided those things if they were needed. it isn't up to the union what the owner should or shouldn't get it isn't their company.

    if they want to be part owners of the company then they need to invest in that company.


    How exactly do the lower class invest in the company to make sure they earn a fair wage? Are they supposed to not buy food or pay for housing so that they can afford to take their poverty level wage and spend it on the company with hopes that some day they'll be able to earn a living wage?

    I'm not a fan of unions but this line of logic is laughable.
    Tidehollow Sculler of Limited
  • #158
    Quote from Yorutenchi
    1) We are a consumer based economy. the REASON buisnesses are so sucessful here is the market. If we stop this market then there is no longer a good economy here.


    You continue to forget the fact that major consumption without adequate production has been the weakness to our economy. We went on an unprecedented consumption binge during the housing bubble to create a phantom economy. Once the housing bubble burst, all the wealth people had from housing evaporated and all that remained was the debt that was accumulated from all the consumption. Even after the housing bubble, the Federal Reserve reduced interest rates to 0%, encouraging people to consume even more and save less. What do we have to show for all of our consumption? Nothing, except a weaker dollar and more debt.

    2) Why do we need to have producing jobs? Factory work is outdated. Machines are far more effective. This kind of thinking is about 80 years out dated. Science and technology is where the jobs need to be. More skilled work. We need to build things. Good things. Manufacturing is a good thing that we need to do but thats not a reason to say "well thats what the poor need to do"
    Even as technology improves, you still have to produce stuff some how. Raw materials don't magically convert themselves into the end products that we desire. We can't expect the rest of the world to continue to produce almost everything for us.

    3) Overrugulation isn't the root of the problem here in America. That is a conservative lie. The problem is the system is broken. The regulation is a response by the government to try and fix the brokenness. Companies have a lot less regulation that people like to believe. The reason they are in china is not due to regulations and jumping through hoops but rather they can get away with treating the workers like sub-human animals that work for a pay rate that if put in America would mean that they would STILL be on the tit of the government. That won't fix the "welfare state" but make the rich a lot richer. Thats the true intention there. The regulation really isn't as bad as people say. The taxes are at a record low. WHAT regulations are "over regulating" the market?
    What is "the system" that you are talking about that is broken? Capitalism? Free-market economics? If so, our failures have not come because of the free-market due to the fact that we have no free market in the first place. Politicians try to say we have a free market economy, but when you really look at things, it's really not.

    Heck, I'd be willing to wager that a lot of conservatives (more specifically neo-conservatives) don't truly believe in a legitmate free market that libertarians want to see. We have yet to see a market that is untainted by crony capitalism, fascism, government subsidies, government picking winners and losers, and excessive regulation. The reason I say that is because when you listen to your typical cookie-cutter Republican or conservative on a talk show or TV, you don't hear or see them championing the ideas of Austrians such as Hayek, Mises, and Rothbard. Pretty much everyone in government is a Keynesian in some way.

    4) And its a global market. The idea you are proposing sound a lot like you think America is an independent market. While in truth the entire world is intertwined with the American market. We get our products from all around the world but that doesn't mean that we can fix the economy by producing more raw materials....
    We can certainly make things better for ourselves by producing our own stuff. That's how we became the wealthiest creditor nation in the world. We produced stuff that the rest of the world bought. Today, we are the largest debtor nation in the world. Look our trade deficit. It's enormous. It cannot be sustained for much longer and yet we continue to consume foreign products with no end in sight.
    Last edited by Surging Chaos: 12/31/2012 10:56:36 PM
  • #159
    The question is. Could we product it anywhere near as cheaply as the same products could be made overseas and then imported back to be sold? If items were made here, I would imagine, they would cost more to produce for many items. And if they cost more to make, they would have to be priced higher, and would thusly make it more expensive for the consumers to buy, which would make them less likely to buy it/reduce their allready reducing buying power.

    While I agree that we need to work a lot harder on producing more here ourselves and bringing our trade deficit back into balance, I just dont know how viable it would be would be my concern.
  • #160

    What is "the system" that you are talking about that is broken? Capitalism? Free-market economics? If so, our failures have not come because of the free-market due to the fact that we have no free market in the first place. Politicians try to say we have a free market economy, but when you really look at things, it's really not.

    Heck, I'd be willing to wager that a lot of conservatives (more specifically neo-conservatives) don't truly believe in a legitmate free market that libertarians want to see. We have yet to see a market that is untainted by crony capitalism, fascism, government subsidies, government picking winners and losers, and excessive regulation. The reason I say that is because when you listen to your typical cookie-cutter Republican or conservative on a talk show or TV, you don't hear or see them championing the ideas of Austrians such as Hayek, Mises, and Rothbard. Pretty much everyone in government is a Keynesian in some way.

    Influence inherently concentrates over time, and inevitably leads to some kind of oligarchy. No human has figured out a system to stop this effect. The only thing that "better" systems have over "worse" systems is how quickly the effect gets to a critical mass such that the unprivileged finally spark a revolution.
  • #161
    I still stand by my statements that the idea that Government broke capitalism is a lie. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.


    To big to fail? government
    auto bail outs? government
    housing crisis? government
    devaluation of the dollar? government

    90% of the financial setbacks we have seen lately has been th fault of government trying to force the system to do something it wasn't suppose to do.

    capitalism doesn't believe in to big to fail. capitalism doesn't bail out companies in distress. capitalism doesn't prop up and support bubble markets as values are allowed to fluctuate naturaly to avoid those things.

    Unions are a necessary thing.


    This is an opinion. not a fact. a company can exist and many do just fine without a union. what unions are starting to realize all to late is that they are not needed by a company. just all the guys that use to make twinkies.

    they are not needed. they union done. no one will hire them. they will buy the IP then move to another plant or build one in a right to work state.

    The reason companies are moving away from unions is because they are whiny and don't like the idea of not getting the maximum profit at the expense of others. Plain and simnple.


    You forget the number 1 rule of business. To make money. that is why a company exists. it exists for not other reason than to make money.

    But to say "unions" are destroying the economy is nothing more than pointing fingers and whining about a broken system and wanting to blame everything but the problem.


    no one said this you are making stuff up.

    Its the government, its the regulations, its the unions, its the poor, is the welfare state. never is it about the people walking away filthy rich while forcing others to take payment so low that even when working full time they need assistance to live at the most basic level.


    actually it is a combination of those 3 or 4 things.

    if you don't like what you make do something to make yourself more valuable.

    having a high school diploma and working at walmart till you are 50 or 60 isn't going to make you wealthy you might get buy.

    as neil bortz said one day. You make exactly what you are worth. IE someone pay's you what they feel you are worth and will be worth to them.

    you want to make more then do something that improves yourself. that is the only way to do it.


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  • #162
    As I am posting this, the Fiscal Cliff Deal passed the Senate about 5 hours ago but I got a strong feeling that the House will turn it down soon to thrust the U.S. back into a 2nd Great Recession and increase the Unemployment Rate back to 9% from 4 years ago. This just further proves how the Tea Party caucus of the House is pulling the strings on John Boehner in order to benefit themselves over the constituency of the American people which is a travesty in itself.

    It's true that Tax Reform and Entitlement Reform isn't apart of this new bill that the Senate passed but it's better than going off the Fiscal Cliff with no deal at all. The country still has more hurdles to face such as the next "Debt Ceiling Crisis" where unfortunately we need to raise the Debt Ceiling again as a means of "kicking the can down the road" instead of a long term solution to get a new system of National Debt in place, but the problem I see with that is where is all the borrowed money going to go from the old system? It can't just magically disappear.

    That's where Debt Reform comes into place where you find a solution to all that borrowed money before establishing a new system of National Debt/Deficit as confusing as that might sound. I don't think Congress will deal with this right after the Fiscal Cliff deal is all said and done since there is still a slew of other issues like how to establish Gun Control laws that doesn't destroy the 2nd Amendment or other kinds of Reforms that need to be passed through Congress. I still thought that Executive Order pay raise to Congress by the President last night was out of the blue considering the abyssmal approval rating of Congress who are very good at doing absolutely nothing.
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  • #163
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    As I am posting this, the Fiscal Cliff Deal passed the Senate about 5 hours ago but I got a strong feeling that the House will turn it down soon to thrust the U.S. back into a 2nd Great Recession and increase the Unemployment Rate back to 9% from 4 years ago. This just further proves how the Tea Party caucus of the House is pulling the strings on John Boehner in order to benefit themselves over the constituency of the American people which is a travesty in itself.

    It's true that Tax Reform and Entitlement Reform isn't apart of this new bill that the Senate passed but it's better than going off the Fiscal Cliff with no deal at all. The country still has more hurdles to face such as the next "Debt Ceiling Crisis" where unfortunately we need to raise the Debt Ceiling again as a means of "kicking the can down the road" instead of a long term solution to get a new system of National Debt in place, but the problem I see with that is where is all the borrowed money going to go from the old system? It can't just magically disappear.

    That's where Debt Reform comes into place where you find a solution to all that borrowed money before establishing a new system of National Debt/Deficit as confusing as that might sound. I don't think Congress will deal with this right after the Fiscal Cliff deal is all said and done since there is still a slew of other issues like how to establish Gun Control laws that doesn't destroy the 2nd Amendment or other kinds of Reforms that need to be passed through Congress. I still thought that Executive Order pay raise to Congress by the President last night was out of the blue considering the abyssmal approval rating of Congress who are very good at doing absolutely nothing.


    Personally I think we should wait until they actually vote on the thing before we go claiming they are going to shoot it down and blaming what COULD happen based upon that.

    Im hopeful that they will see that while this whole thing may not be perfect, that its the best they are likely toget without causing the harm that neither party wants to see occur.

    Now, if they end up voting it down in the house, then I agree that we should condemn them for doing so. Until then, Ill at least give them a chance to do the right thing.

    As for the president using an executive order to raise the pay of congress and what not. Honestly I was rather taken aback by that. It seems like whenever the government sets out to do something to fix their own fiscal messes, they just end up undoing it later on. Of all the people that shouldnt be getting raises right now..... Its congress and other government officials that continue to allow these messes to happen.
  • #164
    Honestly I was rather taken aback by that. It seems like whenever the government sets out to do something to fix their own fiscal messes, they just end up undoing it later on.


    congress are the last people the need to be getting raises. although there are several house members and a couple of senators that have put forth bills to stop any pay raises to congress.


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  • #165
    Quote from mystery45
    I still stand by my statements that the idea that Government broke capitalism is a lie. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.


    To big to fail? government
    auto bail outs? government
    housing crisis? government
    devaluation of the dollar? government

    90% of the financial setbacks we have seen lately has been th fault of government trying to force the system to do something it wasn't suppose to do.

    capitalism doesn't believe in to big to fail. capitalism doesn't bail out companies in distress. capitalism doesn't prop up and support bubble markets as values are allowed to fluctuate naturaly to avoid those things.

    I challenge 90% of this. Too big to fail was a bad economic ideology but it is NOT what caused the recession.

    Bailing out the banks also didn't "cause" the bad economy. Actually it just didn't help as much as they wanted. It in no way hurt the economy.

    auto bailouts HELPED the economy. the situations that led to them needing to be bailed out is all private sector.

    the housing market crash had nothing to do with the government.

    Devaluation of the dollar is really the only thing I can agree with you on as being the government's fault. But its nothing new. and it is in no way the cause of our current situation.

    A better estimate of our problems is not 90% government 10% other. More so I would say 10% government, 50% people who have broken capitalism, 20% of the housing market crash, 20% people hyping up everyone with fear mongering and stalling the market.

    Unions are a necessary thing.


    This is an opinion. not a fact. a company can exist and many do just fine without a union. what unions are starting to realize all to late is that they are not needed by a company. just all the guys that use to make twinkies.

    they are not needed. they union done. no one will hire them. they will buy the IP then move to another plant or build one in a right to work state.

    then we shall not meet eye to eye on this. I suppose history will just be on my side and fox news will be on yours.

    The reason companies are moving away from unions is because they are whiny and don't like the idea of not getting the maximum profit at the expense of others. Plain and simnple.


    You forget the number 1 rule of business. To make money. that is why a company exists. it exists for not other reason than to make money.

    You fall behind this like its some kind of safe zone. but those same people bitch when people start to not buy their products when they screw people. It should be on the news as a number one priority to tell every person in America what companies are doing what as far as where the money they make goes in spending. Screwing the country for a buck is not something I can simply condone.

    So why shouldn't government step in to provide some protection for the people? If a compnay is only out to make money then we need some way to keep them in check.

    But to say "unions" are destroying the economy is nothing more than pointing fingers and whining about a broken system and wanting to blame everything but the problem.


    no one said this you are making stuff up.

    Yet you nor any other conservative has ever said anything different. I only say "lol" as my response to this particular bit.

    Its the government, its the regulations, its the unions, its the poor, is the welfare state. never is it about the people walking away filthy rich while forcing others to take payment so low that even when working full time they need assistance to live at the most basic level.


    actually it is a combination of those 3 or 4 things.

    if you don't like what you make do something to make yourself more valuable.

    having a high school diploma and working at walmart till you are 50 or 60 isn't going to make you wealthy you might get buy.

    as neil bortz said one day. You make exactly what you are worth. IE someone pay's you what they feel you are worth and will be worth to them.

    you want to make more then do something that improves yourself. that is the only way to do it.


    I will argue that all of the CEO's get paid far more than they are worth. Workers are worth more than they get in pay 9 out of 10 times. I'm not saying we need to pay our factory workers and cashiers 15 bucks and hour but our skilled work need higher pay.
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  • #166
    Quote from Surging Chaos
    Quote from Yorutenchi
    1) We are a consumer based economy. the REASON buisnesses are so sucessful here is the market. If we stop this market then there is no longer a good economy here.


    You continue to forget the fact that major consumption without adequate production has been the weakness to our economy. We went on an unprecedented consumption binge during the housing bubble to create a phantom economy. Once the housing bubble burst, all the wealth people had from housing evaporated and all that remained was the debt that was accumulated from all the consumption. Even after the housing bubble, the Federal Reserve reduced interest rates to 0%, encouraging people to consume even more and save less. What do we have to show for all of our consumption? Nothing, except a weaker dollar and more debt.


    Not quite. I challenge this. there was a slight false economy with the housing market and it was big enough to cause a fair amount of distress in our economic collapse. Though several factors were brought in to create the fullness of our economic unrest.

    If we are a mediator we can still make plenty of money. We need more production that much is true. But we don't need to fall back into merchantalism. We can still have a very sucessful economy if we don't produce products. For example China has a really bad economic situation as does Japan and they both produce a lot of things. England for example produces even less than America. Historically that is true. America plays more key rolls than just producing.

    Though I will say I agree with you that we need more but I am disagreeing merely by how much more you seem to be implying.

    2) Why do we need to have producing jobs? Factory work is outdated. Machines are far more effective. This kind of thinking is about 80 years out dated. Science and technology is where the jobs need to be. More skilled work. We need to build things. Good things. Manufacturing is a good thing that we need to do but thats not a reason to say "well thats what the poor need to do"


    Even as technology improves, you still have to produce stuff some how. Raw materials don't magically convert themselves into the end products that we desire. We can't expect the rest of the world to continue to produce almost everything for us.

    This is different than what you were saying earlier. If not then I read it differently and if is such the case I will concede the point. I agree we need to produce more but we don't have to export more than we import. Especially since we are the crux of the world's economy basically.

    Now we don't need to just make a massive number of factory jobs. Especially low paying factory jobs. This isn't a route to sucess. This is a rouge to making an unbelievably poor low class of workers with no hope of leaving this situation. Factory workers shouldn't be a dime a dozen but rather people dedicated to a job and should have a Union.

    3) Overrugulation isn't the root of the problem here in America. That is a conservative lie. The problem is the system is broken. The regulation is a response by the government to try and fix the brokenness. Companies have a lot less regulation that people like to believe. The reason they are in china is not due to regulations and jumping through hoops but rather they can get away with treating the workers like sub-human animals that work for a pay rate that if put in America would mean that they would STILL be on the tit of the government. That won't fix the "welfare state" but make the rich a lot richer. Thats the true intention there. The regulation really isn't as bad as people say. The taxes are at a record low. WHAT regulations are "over regulating" the market?
    What is "the system" that you are talking about that is broken? Capitalism? Free-market economics? If so, our failures have not come because of the free-market due to the fact that we have no free market in the first place. Politicians try to say we have a free market economy, but when you really look at things, it's really not.

    Heck, I'd be willing to wager that a lot of conservatives (more specifically neo-conservatives) don't truly believe in a legitmate free market that libertarians want to see. We have yet to see a market that is untainted by crony capitalism, fascism, government subsidies, government picking winners and losers, and excessive regulation. The reason I say that is because when you listen to your typical cookie-cutter Republican or conservative on a talk show or TV, you don't hear or see them championing the ideas of Austrians such as Hayek, Mises, and Rothbard. Pretty much everyone in government is a Keynesian in some way.

    "the system" I am refering to is capitalism itself. The idea that you start a company that a person owns rather than the government. Having to fit within regulations does not mean its government controlled.

    Its not picking winners and loosers to have regulations. Regulations are necessary.

    4) And its a global market. The idea you are proposing sound a lot like you think America is an independent market. While in truth the entire world is intertwined with the American market. We get our products from all around the world but that doesn't mean that we can fix the economy by producing more raw materials....
    We can certainly make things better for ourselves by producing our own stuff. That's how we became the wealthiest creditor nation in the world. We produced stuff that the rest of the world bought. Today, we are the largest debtor nation in the world. Look our trade deficit. It's enormous. It cannot be sustained for much longer and yet we continue to consume foreign products with no end in sight.


    I already responded to this but seems like a good idea to recap my points.
    1) We need to produce more.
    2) We don't have to produce more than we consume
    3) Low paying factory jobs I do not support. Union jobs with benefits I do support. Technology can replace the majority of these menial jobs.
    4) Skilled work is more important. we need to have people learn a "trade" rather than just low pay work.
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  • #167
    Quote from Yorutenchi


    3) Overrugulation isn't the root of the problem here in America. That is a conservative lie. The problem is the system is broken. The regulation is a response by the government to try and fix the brokenness. Companies have a lot less regulation that people like to believe. The reason they are in china is not due to regulations and jumping through hoops but rather they can get away with treating the workers like sub-human animals that work for a pay rate that if put in America would mean that they would STILL be on the tit of the government. That won't fix the "welfare state" but make the rich a lot richer. Thats the true intention there. The regulation really isn't as bad as people say. The taxes are at a record low. WHAT regulations are "over regulating" the market?

    4) And its a global market. The idea you are proposing sound a lot like you think America is an independent market. While in truth the entire world is intertwined with the American market. We get our products from all around the world but that doesn't mean that we can fix the economy by producing more raw materials....


    The way I approach the overregulated argument is rather simple. Think of a three layer sandwich, and then eat it every single day. For a large person this is possible, for a smaller person it is not and requires the process to be broken down. However, as with anything too much food in your system causes blocked arteries.

    The sandwich is the three layers of government regulations, and the arteries are capital, labor, and time wasted on compliance. I have said before that we only need one of something, whether that is state or federal I don't care so as much it works. Regulatory compliance is a nightmare for manufacturing especially and to pretend otherwise is an outright joke.

    I don't mean deregulate like how we did in the 1990's, but rather what Greenspan and Warren both agreed with stuff like paper work consolidation and the like. It should take work to make sure people are compliant, but not onerous for the government or for the capitalist to get into the game. The sooner a compliant and wisely ran plant and other business is up and running, the better on return on investment for everyone.

    If you have to send paper work in triplicate form with the same data to three different agencies all rating the same thing, what work does that do for anyone? Even the regulators could be regulating something more profound in other areas if they had to do less paperwork themselves.

    This is the way I see deregulation and small government, whenever A@W was starting up they approached FDR about using steam on their root bear mugs. The steam was cracking their mugs from high heat and costing them untold profits, so instead switching over to soap and water they were able to increase their cash reserve while still making sure that the public wasn't sick from unwashed mugs. Which in anarchy, an unwashed mug would be more common.


    Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.

    Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.

    Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.

    Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.


  • #168
    ALERT-
    House passed the Senate bill. It is now going to Obama. I doubt he will not sign it. Its possible he has already signed it but no official news. But it is offically passed congress and on its way to the president. It was more difficult getting through the house but it had the strongest bi-partisan support EVER of any non-trivial bill in the 112th congressional history in the senate.

    EDIT:
    However the bill is very much a short term measure. In 3 months at the end of March we face another cliff that should be better at making a more permanent legislation. However it will be handled by the 113th congress not the 112th congress. I spent a few hours watching some goodbye speeches from congressional members that are leaving. It was rather touching. I do hope that this next congress will be less extreme and more prone to bi-partisan efforts. There was a decent bi-partisan work with this final bill that will kick the problem down the road a few months for some real debate. I can only hope they actually start working on this Friday after they get sworn in on Thursday.

    I'm still reading the hundred and fifity-something page bill that has been proposed but its very much compromised on both sides it seems. It trends towards democrats but not as bad as the last ones. At least not thus far. I'm on page 22 right now.
    Last edited by Yorutenchi: 1/1/2013 10:37:42 PM
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  • #170
    Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!

    AA to A here we come... Slant

    And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
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  • #171
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!

    AA to A here we come... Slant

    And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...


    At this point I am happy they even agreed to essentially do nothing. First thing they have agreed on in years.
    "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."


    Thomas Jefferson

    Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
  • #172
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!

    AA to A here we come... Slant

    And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...


    You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.

    What we do have now though, as mentioned, is a situation where we have around 2 months or so, to figure something out both in regards to the cuts side of things that didnt really get dealt with with this agreement, and of course the debt ceiling. I do have a feeling we will likely be right back here again in 2 months, unfortunately, but with any luck, having that extra 2 months and having actually come to the most recent agreement will give them a better working relationship to come up with a deal to avert any other issues.

    Both sides have had significant issues this entire time dealing with this stuff, everyone from both parties, both houses of congress, and even the white house. I was glad to see Biden get in there and help them work something out, so that was certainly a promising turn of events. I just hope both parties learned from this situation how important these issues are and that they need to take care of this stuff NOW and not keep putting it off till later. They now have 2 months, I hope they can work hard and work with one another to work something out NOT at the last minute this time.

    As for a downgrade, well, if they can manage to come up with a deal in a couple months to avoid the debt ceiling (and no, we wouldnt default even if we did have a government shutdown, any such claims are 100% false, we bring in enough in taxes to easily cover the relatively small amount we pay in interest on the debt, vs the other parts of the government budget.) then hopefully we can avoid another downgrade, especially if they are able to come up with a good large solid deal to make sure we can make some significant dents into the massive deficit that we currently are dealing with.

    When/if we get past that, then hopefully we'll finally have some solid certainty for the economy to be able to move on into the future with. If not, then yeah, it has the potential to be a disaster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • #173
    Quote from jeffbcrandall

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.

    It's not that I don't like the House Republicans, it's that I'm fed up with their partisan politics and I'd like to see them be more bipartisan in Congress where they work more for the benefit of the American people (including Middle Class and Poor) instead of their own constituence. But I am glad that they passed a bipartisan bill that was made in the Senate. There was a time when Washington had a good name, we need to get back to those times again.

    There's no point in taking the country hostage for something that could of devastated not just our economy in general but for consumer confidence in Wall Street as well when we are slowly trying to get ourselves out of the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, when Unemployment has gone down from 7% to maybe even lower If we work hard to keep creating jobs in this country. Sure we got more challenges ahead but only If we are united as a country, otherwise divided we fall.
    America Bless God

    "Blessed is the Nation Whose God is the Lord."

    Psalm 33:12
  • #174
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    Quote from jeffbcrandall

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.

    It's not that I don't like the House Republicans, it's that I'm fed up with their partisan politics and I'd like to see them be more bipartisan in Congress where they work more for the benefit of the American people (including Middle Class and Poor) instead of their own constituence. But I am glad that they passed a bipartisan bill that was made in the Senate. There was a time when Washington had a good name, we need to get back to those times again.

    There's no point in taking the country hostage for something that could of devastated not just our economy in general but for consumer confidence in Wall Street as well when we are slowly trying to get ourselves out of the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, when Unemployment has gone down from 7% to maybe even lower If we work hard to keep creating jobs in this country. Sure we got more challenges ahead but only If we are united as a country, otherwise divided we fall.


    Well, to be fair, their job as representatives is to vote for what the people that voted them into office want. This goes for either side of the isle both democrats and republicans. Part of the problem is that what both sides believe, often are at odds on many key issues. With the country so split right now, we have a situation where the congress is as split as we have seen it before as well and as a result. If the republicans get voted into office by the people that voted them in, to not raise taxes and to cut government expenditures, then thats what they are going to vote for, because that is what the people that voted them into office wanted. The other side is true for the democrats. If the democrats get voted into office by the people that voted them in, to raise taxes (on the wealthy), and to not cut, or to only cut things like defense, then thats what they are going to vote for, because thats what the people they represent want.

    What Im hopeful for, is that both sides will see that no one is going to be able to get 100% of what they want, and compromise is going to have to happen (this applies to both democrats and republicans, as they both have issues giving enough to try to be able to find that middle ground). In the end, we have about 2 months, and all we can do, unfortunately, is sit back and hope that they can work something out, and show that what happenned in the last couple days is more indicative of the future than what we saw before that.
  • #175
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!

    AA to A here we come... Slant

    And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...


    I hope the US gets down graded its balance sheet is absurd. Nothing is ever going to get cut. Everyone's taxes are going up so they can spend more.

    Quote from jeffbcrandall

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.


    If it's bipartisan then it's pretty much guaranteed to be evil. Nothing fundamentally has changed to avoid the real cliff.
    Last edited by Undisputed-: 1/2/2013 7:47:56 AM
    "No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory." - Murray Rothbard, Cited from "War, Peace, and the State"
  • #176
    Quote from Undisputed-
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!

    AA to A here we come... Slant

    And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...


    I hope the US gets down graded its balance sheet is absurd. Nothing is ever going to get cut. Everyone's taxes are going up so they can spend more.


    This is the kind of attitude that leads us to these problems. Cuts will be made, and we can only hope that these are done responsibly in a balanced approach.(meaning having no sacred cows like military, corporate welfare, or safety nets)

    Instead of cutting things maybe we should try to reform them. Change a few numbers here and there while maintaining each and every program.

    Quote from jeffbcrandall

    You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.



    If it's bipartisan then it's pretty much guaranteed to be evil. Nothing fundamentally has changed to avoid the real cliff.


    How is a bipartisan "thing" evil? Are you so far right that even moderates scare you? This just goes to show you how far right some people in this country are. Relative to how far right far right goes the far left people seem moderate lol.
    "And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."


    Thomas Jefferson

    Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
  • #177
    Morgan: While I do agree about redundant regulation like you're talking about - its something that should really be its own subcategory. For every deregulation suggestion that fixes a redundancy there's many others that attempt to truly deregulate something.
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