Should We Go Over The "Fiscal Cliff"?

  • #1
    Now I'm all for not going over the cliff to avoid a huge amount of spending cuts and tax increases that would result in Unemployment in the U.S. going back to 9% in the next 4 years and undermine Obama's presidency yet Michael Moore made an interesting argument regarding it but it sounded more partisan than bipartisan IMO:

    Quote from Michael Moore »


    The "fiscal cliff" is a ruse, an invention by the right and the rich, to try and keep their huge tax breaks. On December 31, let ALL the tax cuts expire. Then, on January 1, put forth a bill that restores the tax cuts for 98 percent of the public. I dare the Republicans to vote against that! They can't and they won't. As for the spending cuts, the 2011 agreement states that, for every domestic program dollar the Republicans want to cut, a Pentagon dollar must also be cut. See, you are a genius! No way will the right vote against the masters of war. And if by some chance they do, you can immediately put forth legislation to restore all the programs we, the majority, approve of. And for God's sake, man -- declare Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid untouchable. They're not bankrupt or anywhere near it. If the rich paid the same percentage of Social Security tax on their entire income -- the same exact rate everyone else pays &-- then there will suddenly be enough money in Social Security to last til at least the year 2080!

    What do you guys think?
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  • #2
    It was put there to force a proper deal on deficit reduction. It is more than just the expiration of the 2001, 2003 income tax breaks, the capital gains tax break, the alternative minimum tax break, the 2011 payroll tax break; it is the automatic across the board spending cuts to government spending. The "gang of six" the Simpson-Bowles committee put forward a bipartisan agreement for responsible cost cutting, which has been scoffed at and rejected for the time being.

    Liberals are calling it the "fiscal curb" because they want to avoid the hysteria that goes with failing to reach a deal by this time. But if we do fail to reach a deal by January 1, we have real problems in our legislature. Some of these cuts and expiring deals have more return than others. It shouldn't be so difficult to figure out which to keep.

    Talks have been more favorable in the last few days. Stock market was up 200+ yesterday. We need a functioning legislature not just to reduce the deficit while also supporting the economy, but also to cooperate on the debt ceiling sometime later this year. One of the more encouraging suggestions was when the treasury secretary proposed we get rid of the debt ceiling, which gets rid of a lot of financial uncertainty.
  • #3
    It's not really a matter of if but when, politicians will do whatever it takes to push it off while they are in office instead of fixing the core problem. The only reason we have made it this far is because the dollar is the world reserve currency which gives the US increased opportunity to expand the money supply. We inflate our currency at the expense of the rest of the world, it's only a matter of time until that ends.

    Other countries want to buy the reserve currency to put it in their vaults, and the issuing country can therefore inflate it's money supply without immediate price inflation. Money printing normally just makes that money worthless, but if other countries want to buy that money as a reserve, it disappears in vaults and printing more doesn't cause an increase in the money supply out in the wild. You can print money and get stuff for it from other countries, and print more money and get more stuff, and there's no inflation. It essentially comes at the expense of other countries who have to expend their goods in return for paper that you just print. It's a great gig if you can get it, because those in control of the reserve currency, the bankers, can print massive amounts of purchasing power at the expense of everyone else. That's why ruling classes in different continents are attempting to establish more centralized, powerful currencies in favor of local currencies, e.g. the Euro.
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  • #4
    Quote from Undisputed-
    Other countries want to buy the reserve currency to put it in their vaults, and the issuing country can therefore inflate it's money supply without immediate price inflation. Money printing normally just makes that money worthless, but if other countries want to buy that money as a reserve, it disappears in vaults and printing more doesn't cause an increase in the money supply out in the wild. You can print money and get stuff for it from other countries, and print more money and get more stuff, and there's no inflation. It essentially comes at the expense of other countries who have to expend their goods in return for paper that you just print. It's a great gig if you can get it, because those in control of the reserve currency, the bankers, can print massive amounts of purchasing power at the expense of everyone else. That's why ruling classes in different continents are attempting to establish more centralized, powerful currencies in favor of local currencies, e.g. the Euro.


    The Euro over local currencies is an attempt to spur trade across borders. Imagine the US before the Constitution when every state had their own currency. Then imagine keeping track of your North Carolina dollars with your South Carolina dollars as you travel back and forth. The Euro is having trouble because there isn't an effective governing body across the Eurozone, so there's wide disparities in economies from country to country. But back to America.

    Quote from Undisputed-
    It's not really a matter of if but when, politicians will do whatever it takes to push it off while they are in office instead of fixing the core problem. The only reason we have made it this far is because the dollar is the world reserve currency which gives the US increased opportunity to expand the money supply. We inflate our currency at the expense of the rest of the world, it's only a matter of time until that ends.


    The when is January 1. If no deal is reached then there is $500 billion in immediate deficit reduction, and we'll have until March or April to rechange the tax code before people pay their taxes. We want the legislature to put some of this off because it has a huge negative impact on our economy. Other countries are begging us to put this off, because they can't stand to have the US in another recession.

    The dollar is the global currency for a reason. The US is the largest economy in the world, we're the head member of the UN, we have a lot of guns and a lot of bombs and we favor ourselves as world police. None of that will change with the fiscal cliff.

    If the US austerity cuts are too severe there could be Greece like riots.
  • #5
    Quote from 1Drop

    The Euro over local currencies is an attempt to spur trade across borders. Imagine the US before the Constitution when every state had their own currency. Then imagine keeping track of your North Carolina dollars with your South Carolina dollars as you travel back and forth. The Euro is having trouble because there isn't an effective governing body across the Eurozone, so there's wide disparities in economies from country to country. But back to America.


    Having more currencies is better because it keeps the issuer of the currencies honest. People will use the most stable currency to avoid losing wealth. The reason gold is not a legal currency is because fiat currency would be unable to compete.

    Quote from Undisputed-

    The when is January 1. If no deal is reached then there is $500 billion in immediate deficit reduction, and we'll have until March or April to rechange the tax code before people pay their taxes. We want the legislature to put some of this off because it has a huge negative impact on our economy. Other countries are begging us to put this off, because they can't stand to have the US in another recession.

    The dollar is the global currency for a reason. The US is the largest economy in the world, we're the head member of the UN, we have a lot of guns and a lot of bombs and we favor ourselves as world police. None of that will change with the fiscal cliff.

    If the US austerity cuts are too severe there could be Greece like riots.


    No, the end game is a dollar collapse when the rest of the world is done being jerked around. There is already talk of establishing a new reserve currency, when that happens all those dollars are going to come home to roost and we will see unprecedented price rises.

    The best thing Greece could do is leave the eurozone.
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  • #6
    Moore's right about the politics of this, at least - the Republicans are in a trap here. The only two really untouchable things for them will both automatically expire, and voting against reinstating the tax cuts for the lower 99% would crush them in the midterm elections.

    As for the right thing to do, well, it has suddenly become in vogue to talk about how screwed we are, fiscally. The dollar is not about to collapse. Our deficits are not about to catch up to us - the interest rates on those loans we're taking out are negative, meaning people are paying us to hold their money for them because we're considered so stable, and most of those loans are held by American citizens, so it's not a foreign policy crisis.

    Yes, we need to fix our budget in a responsible way, but the idea that we're in imminent danger of a major collapse is just unfounded. This is the kind of problem that can be fixed in stages over a few congressional terms, piece by piece.
  • #7
    Indeed, someone (1drop I think?) posted a graphic just a few days ago that the CBO put together, apparently we're looking at a whopping 3% GDP drop if we go over the "fiscal cliff" - hardly a huge hit (especially considering no one has considered Obama's net gains in similar ranges as significant).
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  • #8
    Quote from Undisputed-

    No, the end game is a dollar collapse when the rest of the world is done being jerked around. There is already talk of establishing a new reserve currency, when that happens all those dollars are going to come home to roost and we will see unprecedented price rises.


    I hope you're not reffering to what Russia wants as a new reserve currency being a one world currency where it would freak out conspiracy theorists into thinking that the New World Order is nigh. I've overheard on the news that the U.S. is on it's way of reaching the Gold Standard by 2014 or 2015.

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  • #9
    Quote from Card Slinger J

    I hope you're not reffering to what Russia wants as a new reserve currency being a one world currency where it would freak out conspiracy theorists into thinking that the New World Order is nigh.

    No more so thinking replacement of the dollar by something else. I think the new world order conspiracy gives government way too much credit to organize such things.

    Quote from Card Slinger J
    I've overheard on the news that the U.S. is on it's way of reaching the Gold Standard by 2014 or 2015.

    I have not heard about that but I hope it's true!
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  • #10
    Quote from Drawmeomg
    As for the right thing to do, well, it has suddenly become in vogue to talk about how screwed we are, fiscally. The dollar is not about to collapse. Our deficits are not about to catch up to us - the interest rates on those loans we're taking out are negative, meaning people are paying us to hold their money for them because we're considered so stable, and most of those loans are held by American citizens, so it's not a foreign policy crisis.

    Yes, we need to fix our budget in a responsible way, but the idea that we're in imminent danger of a major collapse is just unfounded.


    The dollar will collapse, and that is a fact. Every fiat currency in history has fallen at some point in its lifespan. The question of a dollar collapse is not a matter of if, but when it will happen.

    Also, interest rates cannot stay low forever. They will be forced to rise as well. Once that happens, we'll be up **** creek without a paddle since the interest alone on the national debt would consume a major portion of the federal government's income.

    This is the kind of problem that can be fixed in stages over a few congressional terms, piece by piece.


    The problem is that the voters keep re-electing the exact same congressmen. In Oregon for example, every single congressmen in every district was re-elected. How are we supposed to fix anything if we keep re-electing the same politicians that contributed to single digit approval ratings for Congress?

    Quote from Card Slinger J
    I hope you're not reffering to what Russia wants as a new reserve currency being a one world currency where it would freak out conspiracy theorists into thinking that the New World Order is nigh. I've overheard on the news that the U.S. is on it's way of reaching the Gold Standard by 2014 or 2015.


    This is wishful thinking. There is pretty much no suggestion of us going back to a gold standard. By going off the gold standard, politicians have access to an unlimited amount of money at their disposal because said money is not restricted to gold. They can just beg the Fed to loan out more money at will. Telling our politicans to go back to a gold standard is like telling a long-time drug addict to immediately go cold turkey. Gold is the enemy of the warfare and the welfare state. The return of the gold standard would mean no more excessive entitlement spending and no more excessive military spending. Neither the Democrats nor Republicans would want any part of that.
  • #11
    A reasonable timeline, presuming a deal comes together, might be the release of a plan in the first week of December, followed by two weeks of legislative activity, with a target of wrapping up in the middle of the month. 15 December is a soft deadline, because payroll companies generally require two weeks to update withholding software to accommodate changes in income tax rates; a patch to the alternative minimum tax for 2012 will also need to be clear well in advance of 1 January so as to not delay tax filing. But Friday, 21 December, is seen as the real “last ditch” deadline so that members can adjourn before the holiday.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/11/20/is-this-the-deal-that-will-end-the-austerity-crisis/
  • #12
    Quote from Surging Chaos
    Quote from Drawmeomg
    As for the right thing to do, well, it has suddenly become in vogue to talk about how screwed we are, fiscally. The dollar is not about to collapse. Our deficits are not about to catch up to us - the interest rates on those loans we're taking out are negative, meaning people are paying us to hold their money for them because we're considered so stable, and most of those loans are held by American citizens, so it's not a foreign policy crisis.

    Yes, we need to fix our budget in a responsible way, but the idea that we're in imminent danger of a major collapse is just unfounded.


    The dollar will collapse, and that is a fact. Every fiat currency in history has fallen at some point in its lifespan. The question of a dollar collapse is not a matter of if, but when it will happen.


    False - every fiat currency currently in existence has not totally collapsed. It's like saying "Everything dies of old age", then pointing to all organisms of species which have not been demonstrated to display senescence and saying, "That organism will eventually die of old age if nothing else kills it." It doesn't follow. You're saying that "All fiat currencies which have collapsed have collapsed, therefore the dollar will collapse" - but you're neglecting the fact that the dollar doesn't have the property which you're calling out, namely the property of having collapsed. "Has collapsed" isn't a property of being a fiat currency, it's a property of the particular set of fiat currencies you're pointing to.

    It is of course possible, even probable that the dollar will fall. You might have a good argument that you didn't spell out in this post. The fact that other fiat currencies have collapsed is not a proof that it will.

    But then, if the fall of the dollar is 100 years from now and tied to a war in which America loses a substantial portion of its territory and has to accept Versailles-like terms in its unconditional surrender, even demonstrating that the dollar will eventually fall doesn't make that fact relevant to the current fiscal cliff discussion. You need to demonstrate that our actions now affect the fall of the dollar in such a way that matters to our decision-making here and now.



    Incidentally:

    Also, interest rates cannot stay low forever. They will be forced to rise as well. Once that happens, we'll be up **** creek without a paddle since the interest alone on the national debt would consume a major portion of the federal government's income.


    I am NOT saying "borrow recklessly", only "don't be afraid to borrow". I think I can make that point most starkly with a simple observation: at current interest rates, we could borrow a million dollars, put $994,000 of it in a box, spend the remaining $6,000 however we like, and then take the rest of the money out of the box to make our payments. This would of course be a silly idea, but where there are opportunities for the government to realize more than $1:$1 returns on investment after risk is factored in, borrowing money to pay for those opportunities makes financial sense.


    The problem is that the voters keep re-electing the exact same congressmen. In Oregon for example, every single congressmen in every district was re-elected. How are we supposed to fix anything if we keep re-electing the same politicians that contributed to single digit approval ratings for Congress?


    This is only sort of true. The Republican party has a majority in the House despite the fact that more votes were cast for Democrat candidates; the reason is gerrymandering to disenfranchise as many probable Democrat voters as possible in a large number of states (by the way, I'm very sensitive to the false equivalencies frequently drawn between the Dems and the Republicans, but I'm well aware that gerrymandering is one of those actions indisputably practiced by both parties, so you don't have to point out that particular fact). The voters most certainly did NOT choose to keep a Republican House; the Republican lock at the state level of many states rigged the game so that even though more votes were cast for Democrats, Republicans would keep it. Not that they did anything illegal, mind, this is how the game is played in the US, but just dispelling the notion that the will of the people maintained this deadlock. The will of a minority of the people maintained this situation.
    Last edited by Drawmeomg: 11/20/2012 5:41:22 PM
  • #13
    Well folks it looks like a deal has finally been reached between President Obama and both parties that includes $1.6 Trillion in New Tax Revenue, New Stimulus, and a permanent elimination of the Debt/Deficit Ceiling. The only question is how will the U.S. Government still be able to borrow money it doesn't have to fund for much of it's entitlements unless they have no choice but to default which would be even worse than the "Fiscal Cliff" itself?

    To be more specific how do we replace the Debt/Deficit Ceiling without putting a burden on future generations and millions of Americans living today? There's no way the U.S. Government would be able to pay back everything they've borrowed through the Debt/Deficit especially to foreign countries like China. I'm all for getting rid of the Debt Ceiling but we need to do it in a reasonable and consistent manner that doesn't result in dire consequences down the road especially for whatever we put in place that fixes it.
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  • #14
    Quote from Card Slinger J
    Well folks it looks like a deal has finally been reached between President Obama and both parties that includes $1.6 Trillion in New Tax Revenue, New Stimulus, and a permanent elimination of the Debt/Deficit Ceiling. The only question is how will the U.S. Government still be able to borrow money it doesn't have to fund for much of it's entitlements unless they have no choice but to default which would be even worse than the "Fiscal Cliff" itself?

    To be more specific how do we replace the Debt/Deficit Ceiling without putting a burden on future generations and millions of Americans living today? There's no way the U.S. Government would be able to pay back everything they've borrowed through the Debt/Deficit especially to foreign countries like China. I'm all for getting rid of the Debt Ceiling but we need to do it in a reasonable and consistent manner that doesn't result in dire consequences down the road especially for whatever we put in place that fixes it.


    Citation needed? On NPR this morning they were staying that it hadn't and that the president said, explicitly, that there would be no deal unless the republicans agreed to increase taxes on the wealthy.

    Perhaps I misheard -- do you have a link to what you saw?
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  • #15
    Um...I've been glued to C-Span for like the past month and I have heard of no such deal. I have heard tons of "hope" for deals. And everyone is really sure that a deal will happen. Though there seems to be a split in the Republican party. About half seem to be willing to compromise and raise rates by 1.5-2% and the others are ultra hell no to any tax rate increases. So Its up in the air still.
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  • #16
    Quote from bLatch

    Citation needed? On NPR this morning they were staying that it hadn't and that the president said, explicitly, that there would be no deal unless the republicans agreed to increase taxes on the wealthy.

    Perhaps I misheard -- do you have a link to what you saw?


    Here's the link:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/29/fiscal-cliff-2012_n_2214264.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D239856

    I jumped the gun a bit earlier in hopes that they finally agreed to a compromise to avoid going over the "Fiscal Cliff" but instead it was just an offer the White House made that wasn't exactly finalized by the Republicans in the House.

    Unfortunately what's likely to happen in the next few weeks is that the current situation with the "Fiscal Cliff" will just be a repeat of the 2011 Debt Ceiling Crisis where House Republicans waited til the last minute to "kick the can down the road" instead of a "grand bargain" for a long-term solution even though the GOP perceives it as "short-term" from a Democrat's point of view.

    John Boehner and his caucus know the situation isn't that difficult for them to achieve but yet instead they chose the hard way just because they can't accept the fact that the American people voted for Obama to serve a 2nd term for both parties to come together and put the people they govern first over politics.

    "Kicking the can down the road" might seem like good politics but it's not, it's an act of cowardice by running away from your problems to deal with later instead of facing them head on and tackling them. Honestly how many times will the U.S. Government raise the Debt Ceiling until they realize we need a new system to replace it?

    Will the U.S. Government default at the same time we put a new system in place that's more efficient than the National Debt/Deficit? What about Filibuster Reform especially by cutting spending on Entitlement Programs that we can't simply afford anymore with the exception of entitlements associated with Health Care and Social Security?

    In regards to the "Fiscal Cliff" how do House Republicans reach a "grand bargain" in a polarized Congress? Does such a "grand bargain" exist where the ongoing conflict between the House and the Senate in Congress is almost as bad as the feud between the Israelis and the Palestinians in the Middle East? Why are the majority of newly elected House Republican Leaders consist of nothing but middle-aged white men? The GOP lost 71% of the Latino Vote in the last election and it's come to bite them in the butt.
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  • #17
    I say let us go over and by then the american public will be fed up with these so called career politicians they might just vote them out.

    (i doubt it but it could happen).

    republicans are willing to see new revenue but want an equal amount of cuts to government spending.

    last i saw dems proposed 600b dollars in new spending which would offset the tax increases.

    if dem's are trying to be serious they aren't acting like it.

    besides the increase would only raise enough taxes to run the government for 4 days according to the CBO.

    totally useless and idiotic to think you can tax your way out of this.

    problem is we have a bunch of morons on capital hill that think they know what they are doing and they don't. they have no clue about what they are doing hence why we are in this mess to begin with.

    they are the morons that put us here and now we think they can fix it lol.


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  • #18
    They are not morons, they are out of touch with the common person in the country. (both sides of the aisle) They have no idea what its like to really struggle. Actually worry about eating or a roof over their head. Most have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth and a struggle to them is when the nanny rearranged their stuff and they cant find their favorite video game.

    To be a politician takes money (which is wrong), If we had common people who have to struggle with money problems on a daily basis, it would off set those who have no idea the value of money. We might stop spending it like water.


    I was at a school function listening to people talk about some of the local issues and the fiscal cliff came up. I was quite surprised how many feel we should just go over it. I think the common man is getting tired of listening to the rich fighting over how to spend money given to them from those same common people.
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  • #19
    They are not morons


    Yes they are.

    They have no idea what its like to really struggle. Actually worry about eating or a roof over their head. Most have been born with a silver spoon in their mouth and a struggle to them is when the nanny rearranged their stuff and they cant find their favorite video game.


    I disagree. Most of them came from nothing and built themselves up the problem is they forgot what it is like to live a middle class life no matter how much they protest.

    I was quite surprised how many feel we should just go over it. I think the common man is getting tired of listening to the rich fighting over how to spend money given to them from those same common people.


    Hence why i say go over it. the people in washington no longer listen and they don't care anymore.

    otherwise they would have this fixed by now.

    you are not going to tax your way out of this situation. it is going to take an over haul of the tax code.

    It is going to take getting the economy going again. The economy is what generates taxes not tax rates.

    you can have a 100% tax rate but if the economy isn't generating anything then you get nothing to tax.

    until we fix our tax code and make it more economically friendly the government will continue to run a slump.

    my tax code fits on 50 pages maybe 100 if that. costs way less than the one we have now and is economically friendly and will drive business and economic prosperity.

    then the government will have plenty of tax money.


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  • #20
    'Pulling" yourself up form the middle class is not being in touch with the majority in this country anymore. If you were raised middle class, you never had to worry about housing, food, getting sick and where you were going to go. You always had a parent around (maybe even 2 parents!!) and rarely needed for anything.

    A person cant be a moron when they have no idea what the majority needs to survive. If they have never had to go through it, they will never understand. A moron is someone who was raised in the slums, didnt know where his next meal was coming from or when oe where they were laying down that night to sleep and then becomes a politician by what ever means and ignores the plight they just went through.

    Our politicians are not morons, they are out of touch. Big difference.
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  • #21
    Quote from mystery45
    They are not morons


    I disagree. Most of them came from nothing and built themselves up the problem is they forgot what it is like to live a middle class life no matter how much they protest.


    Honestly this comment is a joke. The few that are actually middle class have it well. They don't go by day by day paycheck to paycheck unless they got caught up in the housing bubble which is their own fault for over lending and over spending. There is a great disconnect from the bottom to the top. By some standards those who work the hardest amongst us are just above the poverty line far from the great life of the middle class.


    It is going to take getting the economy going again. The economy is what generates taxes not tax rates.


    We have some of the lowest tax rates of developed countries in the world currently. There is a sweet spot where you get more revenue from taxes. We are most likely way below that level and this is why we are not getting enough revenue. Raising taxes does not always hurt the economy if done in a responsible manner.

    you can have a 100% tax rate but if the economy isn't generating anything then you get nothing to tax.


    At a 100% rate no one would produce anything because they would not gain from it. How ever at a rate of around 35-39%(upper level) those who are profitable will still be which means they will work towards more and the government will keep getting an inflow at a higher rate.



    until we fix our tax code and make it more economically friendly the government will continue to run a slump.


    I agree the tax code is really dumb and over complicated. This is what happens when something gets outdated, but you keep slapping new accessorize or paint onto it until it falls apart.However out tax rate in general and tax codes are quite good fro business. They are in mo way the reason why our economy has failed. Our government that's a different story. So many ways for big companies to cheap on taxes.
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  • #22
    Quote from mystery45
    you can have a 100% tax rate but if the economy isn't generating anything then you get nothing to tax.


    And a tautology is a tautology.

    Quote from mystery45
    until we fix our tax code and make it more economically friendly the government will continue to run a slump.


    Define "economically friendly". If it involves the Sacred Napkin Doodle (a.k.a. the Laffer Curve) in any way, that's been discredited by Real Life. *puts on Guy Fawkes mask* I can make lots of doodles on napkins. Why are my napkin doodles any less relevant than an outside-the-consensus economist's? I demand my napkin doodles have representation in your tax scheme! Nay, I demand everyone's napkin doodles do! And why not bathroom graffiti, while we're hitting the best economic data?

    Anyway, your entire argument, like that of all supply-siders is "ergo Carthago delenda est". Yes, we've heard that a million times.
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  • #23
    Something else that needs to be said is cliff is really the wrong terminology as far as the economy is concerned. It is more like a downhill slope. Going over and the tax hikes won't really matter at first. It would take some time before they really started mattering. So if this does happen plz don't freak out on jan 1 and think the world is coming to an end.
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  • #24
    Quote from mystery45


    republicans are willing to see new revenue but want an equal amount of cuts to government spending.

    last i saw dems proposed 600b dollars in new spending which would offset the tax increases.

    Okay....this is just wrong. Litterally factually wrong. The current deal that was proposed would be 3 parts cuts and 1 parts revenue. So for every 1 dollar in tax rases there would be 3 dollars in cuts. This "offset" you're talking about changed the ratio from 1:3 to 1:2.5. Its still significant and both democrats and Republicans have agreed not to go through with that proposed plan. So there is still a lot to do.

    but again...to say republicans want equal parts revenue and cuts is extremely far from the truth. They want MASSIVE cuts and next to no revenue increases. The democrats agree but still want SOME revenue increase. Right now its a hash out on how they get there.
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  • #26
    Our politicians are not morons, they are out of touch. Big difference


    Then we will just have to agree to disagree. they are idiots and should never be allowed to touch anything to do with government money.

    There is a great disconnect from the bottom to the top. By some standards those who work the hardest amongst us are just above the poverty line far from the great life of the middle class.


    Hence the term work smarter not harder. low labour jobs will pay less they always have than a professional field.

    We have some of the lowest tax rates of developed countries in the world currently.


    No we don't we have the 2nd highest margin tax rate in the world for business purposes. at 39% i do believe.

    We are most likely way below that level and this is why we are not getting enough revenue.


    the government is bringing in over 2 trillion dollars a year. we are spending more than 3 trillion. we don't have a revenue issue we have a spending problem.

    SS, medicare and medicaid account for over 50% of that.

    How ever at a rate of around 35-39%(upper level) those who are profitable will still be which means they will work towards more and the government will keep getting an inflow at a higher rate.


    that is where it is at now and well this would be wrong.

    They are in mo way the reason why our economy has failed. Our government that's a different story. So many ways for big companies to cheap on taxes.


    *sigh* companies don't pay taxes. they pass whatever increases onto their consumers and employee's.

    if they get a 5% increase in expense they will do something to get 6% back.

    Okay....this is just wrong. Litterally factually wrong.

    Not according to the latest report.

    So for every 1 dollar in tax rases there would be 3 dollars in cuts.


    Nothing has been proposed like this from the administration.

    so far he is no upped his tax increase to 1.6 trillion somehow. where that is going to come from who knows.

    on top of that he wants 60b for a new stimulus plan and a saw another report that totaled all new spending to almost 600b.

    so even if he raised 1.6trillion he would spend 600b of that. PS i noted NEW spending. that is on top of what he is already doing.

    there are no cuts from the obama administration. it is the same ol song and dance of tax and spend liberalism.

    the time for tax and spend is over. austery measures are required at this point.

    it is time to balance the check book and fix the broken system.

    it starts with the tax code.
    it then starts with business
    it then starts with cutting and eliminating the 100b dollars in duplicate programs that the government wastes every year.

    then you see about the other things.

    you reform SS, and medicare so that they function properly and at less expense to the government which my plan would do.

    to say republicans want equal parts revenue and cuts is extremely far from the truth. They want MASSIVE cuts and next to no revenue increases.


    simply wrong. they have offered reforms to the tax code. which will increase revenue while lowering rates.

    and massive cuts are needed. we are just spending way to much money and even if obama gets his 1.6 trillion in new taxes there is nothing taht will stop him from just spending it rather than paying down the debt.

    so we get less money in our pocket less raises every year worse benefits as companies try to battle this non-sense and stupidity.

    government income goes down from lack of economic activity and we have to borrow more money to handle all the new spending obama wants to do.

    it is just sheer irresponsibility and a total lack of intelligence on both sides.


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