I still stand by my statements that the idea that Government broke capitalism is a lie. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.
To big to fail? government
auto bail outs? government
housing crisis? government
devaluation of the dollar? government
90% of the financial setbacks we have seen lately has been th fault of government trying to force the system to do something it wasn't suppose to do.
capitalism doesn't believe in to big to fail. capitalism doesn't bail out companies in distress. capitalism doesn't prop up and support bubble markets as values are allowed to fluctuate naturaly to avoid those things.
Unions are a necessary thing.
This is an opinion. not a fact. a company can exist and many do just fine without a union. what unions are starting to realize all to late is that they are not needed by a company. just all the guys that use to make twinkies.
they are not needed. they union done. no one will hire them. they will buy the IP then move to another plant or build one in a right to work state.
The reason companies are moving away from unions is because they are whiny and don't like the idea of not getting the maximum profit at the expense of others. Plain and simnple.
You forget the number 1 rule of business. To make money. that is why a company exists. it exists for not other reason than to make money.
But to say "unions" are destroying the economy is nothing more than pointing fingers and whining about a broken system and wanting to blame everything but the problem.
no one said this you are making stuff up.
Its the government, its the regulations, its the unions, its the poor, is the welfare state. never is it about the people walking away filthy rich while forcing others to take payment so low that even when working full time they need assistance to live at the most basic level.
actually it is a combination of those 3 or 4 things.
if you don't like what you make do something to make yourself more valuable.
having a high school diploma and working at walmart till you are 50 or 60 isn't going to make you wealthy you might get buy.
as neil bortz said one day. You make exactly what you are worth. IE someone pay's you what they feel you are worth and will be worth to them.
you want to make more then do something that improves yourself. that is the only way to do it.
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Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
As I am posting this, the Fiscal Cliff Deal passed the Senate about 5 hours ago but I got a strong feeling that the House will turn it down soon to thrust the U.S. back into a 2nd Great Recession and increase the Unemployment Rate back to 9% from 4 years ago. This just further proves how the Tea Party caucus of the House is pulling the strings on John Boehner in order to benefit themselves over the constituency of the American people which is a travesty in itself.
It's true that Tax Reform and Entitlement Reform isn't apart of this new bill that the Senate passed but it's better than going off the Fiscal Cliff with no deal at all. The country still has more hurdles to face such as the next "Debt Ceiling Crisis" where unfortunately we need to raise the Debt Ceiling again as a means of "kicking the can down the road" instead of a long term solution to get a new system of National Debt in place, but the problem I see with that is where is all the borrowed money going to go from the old system? It can't just magically disappear.
That's where Debt Reform comes into place where you find a solution to all that borrowed money before establishing a new system of National Debt/Deficit as confusing as that might sound. I don't think Congress will deal with this right after the Fiscal Cliff deal is all said and done since there is still a slew of other issues like how to establish Gun Control laws that doesn't destroy the 2nd Amendment or other kinds of Reforms that need to be passed through Congress. I still thought that Executive Order pay raise to Congress by the President last night was out of the blue considering the abyssmal approval rating of Congress who are very good at doing absolutely nothing.
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
As I am posting this, the Fiscal Cliff Deal passed the Senate about 5 hours ago but I got a strong feeling that the House will turn it down soon to thrust the U.S. back into a 2nd Great Recession and increase the Unemployment Rate back to 9% from 4 years ago. This just further proves how the Tea Party caucus of the House is pulling the strings on John Boehner in order to benefit themselves over the constituency of the American people which is a travesty in itself.
It's true that Tax Reform and Entitlement Reform isn't apart of this new bill that the Senate passed but it's better than going off the Fiscal Cliff with no deal at all. The country still has more hurdles to face such as the next "Debt Ceiling Crisis" where unfortunately we need to raise the Debt Ceiling again as a means of "kicking the can down the road" instead of a long term solution to get a new system of National Debt in place, but the problem I see with that is where is all the borrowed money going to go from the old system? It can't just magically disappear.
That's where Debt Reform comes into place where you find a solution to all that borrowed money before establishing a new system of National Debt/Deficit as confusing as that might sound. I don't think Congress will deal with this right after the Fiscal Cliff deal is all said and done since there is still a slew of other issues like how to establish Gun Control laws that doesn't destroy the 2nd Amendment or other kinds of Reforms that need to be passed through Congress. I still thought that Executive Order pay raise to Congress by the President last night was out of the blue considering the abyssmal approval rating of Congress who are very good at doing absolutely nothing.
Personally I think we should wait until they actually vote on the thing before we go claiming they are going to shoot it down and blaming what COULD happen based upon that.
Im hopeful that they will see that while this whole thing may not be perfect, that its the best they are likely toget without causing the harm that neither party wants to see occur.
Now, if they end up voting it down in the house, then I agree that we should condemn them for doing so. Until then, Ill at least give them a chance to do the right thing.
As for the president using an executive order to raise the pay of congress and what not. Honestly I was rather taken aback by that. It seems like whenever the government sets out to do something to fix their own fiscal messes, they just end up undoing it later on. Of all the people that shouldnt be getting raises right now..... Its congress and other government officials that continue to allow these messes to happen.
Honestly I was rather taken aback by that. It seems like whenever the government sets out to do something to fix their own fiscal messes, they just end up undoing it later on.
congress are the last people the need to be getting raises. although there are several house members and a couple of senators that have put forth bills to stop any pay raises to congress.
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Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around. Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I still stand by my statements that the idea that Government broke capitalism is a lie. I don't know how to explain it any clearer.
To big to fail? government
auto bail outs? government
housing crisis? government
devaluation of the dollar? government
90% of the financial setbacks we have seen lately has been th fault of government trying to force the system to do something it wasn't suppose to do.
capitalism doesn't believe in to big to fail. capitalism doesn't bail out companies in distress. capitalism doesn't prop up and support bubble markets as values are allowed to fluctuate naturaly to avoid those things.
I challenge 90% of this. Too big to fail was a bad economic ideology but it is NOT what caused the recession.
Bailing out the banks also didn't "cause" the bad economy. Actually it just didn't help as much as they wanted. It in no way hurt the economy.
auto bailouts HELPED the economy. the situations that led to them needing to be bailed out is all private sector.
the housing market crash had nothing to do with the government.
Devaluation of the dollar is really the only thing I can agree with you on as being the government's fault. But its nothing new. and it is in no way the cause of our current situation.
A better estimate of our problems is not 90% government 10% other. More so I would say 10% government, 50% people who have broken capitalism, 20% of the housing market crash, 20% people hyping up everyone with fear mongering and stalling the market.
Unions are a necessary thing.
This is an opinion. not a fact. a company can exist and many do just fine without a union. what unions are starting to realize all to late is that they are not needed by a company. just all the guys that use to make twinkies.
they are not needed. they union done. no one will hire them. they will buy the IP then move to another plant or build one in a right to work state.
then we shall not meet eye to eye on this. I suppose history will just be on my side and fox news will be on yours.
The reason companies are moving away from unions is because they are whiny and don't like the idea of not getting the maximum profit at the expense of others. Plain and simnple.
You forget the number 1 rule of business. To make money. that is why a company exists. it exists for not other reason than to make money.
You fall behind this like its some kind of safe zone. but those same people ***** when people start to not buy their products when they screw people. It should be on the news as a number one priority to tell every person in America what companies are doing what as far as where the money they make goes in spending. Screwing the country for a buck is not something I can simply condone.
So why shouldn't government step in to provide some protection for the people? If a compnay is only out to make money then we need some way to keep them in check.
But to say "unions" are destroying the economy is nothing more than pointing fingers and whining about a broken system and wanting to blame everything but the problem.
no one said this you are making stuff up.
Yet you nor any other conservative has ever said anything different. I only say "lol" as my response to this particular bit.
Its the government, its the regulations, its the unions, its the poor, is the welfare state. never is it about the people walking away filthy rich while forcing others to take payment so low that even when working full time they need assistance to live at the most basic level.
actually it is a combination of those 3 or 4 things.
if you don't like what you make do something to make yourself more valuable.
having a high school diploma and working at walmart till you are 50 or 60 isn't going to make you wealthy you might get buy.
as neil bortz said one day. You make exactly what you are worth. IE someone pay's you what they feel you are worth and will be worth to them.
you want to make more then do something that improves yourself. that is the only way to do it.
I will argue that all of the CEO's get paid far more than they are worth. Workers are worth more than they get in pay 9 out of 10 times. I'm not saying we need to pay our factory workers and cashiers 15 bucks and hour but our skilled work need higher pay.
1) We are a consumer based economy. the REASON buisnesses are so sucessful here is the market. If we stop this market then there is no longer a good economy here.
You continue to forget the fact that major consumption without adequate production has been the weakness to our economy. We went on an unprecedented consumption binge during the housing bubble to create a phantom economy. Once the housing bubble burst, all the wealth people had from housing evaporated and all that remained was the debt that was accumulated from all the consumption. Even after the housing bubble, the Federal Reserve reduced interest rates to 0%, encouraging people to consume even more and save less. What do we have to show for all of our consumption? Nothing, except a weaker dollar and more debt.
Not quite. I challenge this. there was a slight false economy with the housing market and it was big enough to cause a fair amount of distress in our economic collapse. Though several factors were brought in to create the fullness of our economic unrest.
If we are a mediator we can still make plenty of money. We need more production that much is true. But we don't need to fall back into merchantalism. We can still have a very sucessful economy if we don't produce products. For example China has a really bad economic situation as does Japan and they both produce a lot of things. England for example produces even less than America. Historically that is true. America plays more key rolls than just producing.
Though I will say I agree with you that we need more but I am disagreeing merely by how much more you seem to be implying.
2) Why do we need to have producing jobs? Factory work is outdated. Machines are far more effective. This kind of thinking is about 80 years out dated. Science and technology is where the jobs need to be. More skilled work. We need to build things. Good things. Manufacturing is a good thing that we need to do but thats not a reason to say "well thats what the poor need to do"
Even as technology improves, you still have to produce stuff some how. Raw materials don't magically convert themselves into the end products that we desire. We can't expect the rest of the world to continue to produce almost everything for us.
This is different than what you were saying earlier. If not then I read it differently and if is such the case I will concede the point. I agree we need to produce more but we don't have to export more than we import. Especially since we are the crux of the world's economy basically.
Now we don't need to just make a massive number of factory jobs. Especially low paying factory jobs. This isn't a route to sucess. This is a rouge to making an unbelievably poor low class of workers with no hope of leaving this situation. Factory workers shouldn't be a dime a dozen but rather people dedicated to a job and should have a Union.
3) Overrugulation isn't the root of the problem here in America. That is a conservative lie. The problem is the system is broken. The regulation is a response by the government to try and fix the brokenness. Companies have a lot less regulation that people like to believe. The reason they are in china is not due to regulations and jumping through hoops but rather they can get away with treating the workers like sub-human animals that work for a pay rate that if put in America would mean that they would STILL be on the tit of the government. That won't fix the "welfare state" but make the rich a lot richer. Thats the true intention there. The regulation really isn't as bad as people say. The taxes are at a record low. WHAT regulations are "over regulating" the market?
What is "the system" that you are talking about that is broken? Capitalism? Free-market economics? If so, our failures have not come because of the free-market due to the fact that we have no free market in the first place. Politicians try to say we have a free market economy, but when you really look at things, it's really not.
Heck, I'd be willing to wager that a lot of conservatives (more specifically neo-conservatives) don't truly believe in a legitmate free market that libertarians want to see. We have yet to see a market that is untainted by crony capitalism, fascism, government subsidies, government picking winners and losers, and excessive regulation. The reason I say that is because when you listen to your typical cookie-cutter Republican or conservative on a talk show or TV, you don't hear or see them championing the ideas of Austrians such as Hayek, Mises, and Rothbard. Pretty much everyone in government is a Keynesian in some way.
"the system" I am refering to is capitalism itself. The idea that you start a company that a person owns rather than the government. Having to fit within regulations does not mean its government controlled.
Its not picking winners and loosers to have regulations. Regulations are necessary.
4) And its a global market. The idea you are proposing sound a lot like you think America is an independent market. While in truth the entire world is intertwined with the American market. We get our products from all around the world but that doesn't mean that we can fix the economy by producing more raw materials....
We can certainly make things better for ourselves by producing our own stuff. That's how we became the wealthiest creditor nation in the world. We produced stuff that the rest of the world bought. Today, we are the largest debtor nation in the world. Look our trade deficit. It's enormous. It cannot be sustained for much longer and yet we continue to consume foreign products with no end in sight.
I already responded to this but seems like a good idea to recap my points.
1) We need to produce more.
2) We don't have to produce more than we consume
3) Low paying factory jobs I do not support. Union jobs with benefits I do support. Technology can replace the majority of these menial jobs.
4) Skilled work is more important. we need to have people learn a "trade" rather than just low pay work.
3) Overrugulation isn't the root of the problem here in America. That is a conservative lie. The problem is the system is broken. The regulation is a response by the government to try and fix the brokenness. Companies have a lot less regulation that people like to believe. The reason they are in china is not due to regulations and jumping through hoops but rather they can get away with treating the workers like sub-human animals that work for a pay rate that if put in America would mean that they would STILL be on the tit of the government. That won't fix the "welfare state" but make the rich a lot richer. Thats the true intention there. The regulation really isn't as bad as people say. The taxes are at a record low. WHAT regulations are "over regulating" the market?
4) And its a global market. The idea you are proposing sound a lot like you think America is an independent market. While in truth the entire world is intertwined with the American market. We get our products from all around the world but that doesn't mean that we can fix the economy by producing more raw materials....
The way I approach the overregulated argument is rather simple. Think of a three layer sandwich, and then eat it every single day. For a large person this is possible, for a smaller person it is not and requires the process to be broken down. However, as with anything too much food in your system causes blocked arteries.
The sandwich is the three layers of government regulations, and the arteries are capital, labor, and time wasted on compliance. I have said before that we only need one of something, whether that is state or federal I don't care so as much it works. Regulatory compliance is a nightmare for manufacturing especially and to pretend otherwise is an outright joke.
I don't mean deregulate like how we did in the 1990's, but rather what Greenspan and Warren both agreed with stuff like paper work consolidation and the like. It should take work to make sure people are compliant, but not onerous for the government or for the capitalist to get into the game. The sooner a compliant and wisely ran plant and other business is up and running, the better on return on investment for everyone.
If you have to send paper work in triplicate form with the same data to three different agencies all rating the same thing, what work does that do for anyone? Even the regulators could be regulating something more profound in other areas if they had to do less paperwork themselves.
This is the way I see deregulation and small government, whenever A@W was starting up they approached FDR about using steam on their root bear mugs. The steam was cracking their mugs from high heat and costing them untold profits, so instead switching over to soap and water they were able to increase their cash reserve while still making sure that the public wasn't sick from unwashed mugs. Which in anarchy, an unwashed mug would be more common.
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Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
ALERT-
House passed the Senate bill. It is now going to Obama. I doubt he will not sign it. Its possible he has already signed it but no official news. But it is offically passed congress and on its way to the president. It was more difficult getting through the house but it had the strongest bi-partisan support EVER of any non-trivial bill in the 112th congressional history in the senate.
EDIT:
However the bill is very much a short term measure. In 3 months at the end of March we face another cliff that should be better at making a more permanent legislation. However it will be handled by the 113th congress not the 112th congress. I spent a few hours watching some goodbye speeches from congressional members that are leaving. It was rather touching. I do hope that this next congress will be less extreme and more prone to bi-partisan efforts. There was a decent bi-partisan work with this final bill that will kick the problem down the road a few months for some real debate. I can only hope they actually start working on this Friday after they get sworn in on Thursday.
I'm still reading the hundred and fifity-something page bill that has been proposed but its very much compromised on both sides it seems. It trends towards democrats but not as bad as the last ones. At least not thus far. I'm on page 22 right now.
Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!
AA to A here we come...
And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
Private Mod Note
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America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!
AA to A here we come...
And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
At this point I am happy they even agreed to essentially do nothing. First thing they have agreed on in years.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!
AA to A here we come...
And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.
What we do have now though, as mentioned, is a situation where we have around 2 months or so, to figure something out both in regards to the cuts side of things that didnt really get dealt with with this agreement, and of course the debt ceiling. I do have a feeling we will likely be right back here again in 2 months, unfortunately, but with any luck, having that extra 2 months and having actually come to the most recent agreement will give them a better working relationship to come up with a deal to avert any other issues.
Both sides have had significant issues this entire time dealing with this stuff, everyone from both parties, both houses of congress, and even the white house. I was glad to see Biden get in there and help them work something out, so that was certainly a promising turn of events. I just hope both parties learned from this situation how important these issues are and that they need to take care of this stuff NOW and not keep putting it off till later. They now have 2 months, I hope they can work hard and work with one another to work something out NOT at the last minute this time.
As for a downgrade, well, if they can manage to come up with a deal in a couple months to avoid the debt ceiling (and no, we wouldnt default even if we did have a government shutdown, any such claims are 100% false, we bring in enough in taxes to easily cover the relatively small amount we pay in interest on the debt, vs the other parts of the government budget.) then hopefully we can avoid another downgrade, especially if they are able to come up with a good large solid deal to make sure we can make some significant dents into the massive deficit that we currently are dealing with.
When/if we get past that, then hopefully we'll finally have some solid certainty for the economy to be able to move on into the future with. If not, then yeah, it has the potential to be a disaster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.
It's not that I don't like the House Republicans, it's that I'm fed up with their partisan politics and I'd like to see them be more bipartisan in Congress where they work more for the benefit of the American people (including Middle Class and Poor) instead of their own constituence. But I am glad that they passed a bipartisan bill that was made in the Senate. There was a time when Washington had a good name, we need to get back to those times again.
There's no point in taking the country hostage for something that could of devastated not just our economy in general but for consumer confidence in Wall Street as well when we are slowly trying to get ourselves out of the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, when Unemployment has gone down from 7% to maybe even lower If we work hard to keep creating jobs in this country. Sure we got more challenges ahead but only If we are united as a country, otherwise divided we fall.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
America Bless Christ Jesus
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.
It's not that I don't like the House Republicans, it's that I'm fed up with their partisan politics and I'd like to see them be more bipartisan in Congress where they work more for the benefit of the American people (including Middle Class and Poor) instead of their own constituence. But I am glad that they passed a bipartisan bill that was made in the Senate. There was a time when Washington had a good name, we need to get back to those times again.
There's no point in taking the country hostage for something that could of devastated not just our economy in general but for consumer confidence in Wall Street as well when we are slowly trying to get ourselves out of the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, when Unemployment has gone down from 7% to maybe even lower If we work hard to keep creating jobs in this country. Sure we got more challenges ahead but only If we are united as a country, otherwise divided we fall.
Well, to be fair, their job as representatives is to vote for what the people that voted them into office want. This goes for either side of the isle both democrats and republicans. Part of the problem is that what both sides believe, often are at odds on many key issues. With the country so split right now, we have a situation where the congress is as split as we have seen it before as well and as a result. If the republicans get voted into office by the people that voted them in, to not raise taxes and to cut government expenditures, then thats what they are going to vote for, because that is what the people that voted them into office wanted. The other side is true for the democrats. If the democrats get voted into office by the people that voted them in, to raise taxes (on the wealthy), and to not cut, or to only cut things like defense, then thats what they are going to vote for, because thats what the people they represent want.
What Im hopeful for, is that both sides will see that no one is going to be able to get 100% of what they want, and compromise is going to have to happen (this applies to both democrats and republicans, as they both have issues giving enough to try to be able to find that middle ground). In the end, we have about 2 months, and all we can do, unfortunately, is sit back and hope that they can work something out, and show that what happenned in the last couple days is more indicative of the future than what we saw before that.
Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!
AA to A here we come...
And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
I hope the US gets down graded its balance sheet is absurd. Nothing is ever going to get cut. Everyone's taxes are going up so they can spend more.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.
If it's bipartisan then it's pretty much guaranteed to be evil. Nothing fundamentally has changed to avoid the real cliff.
"No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory." - Murray Rothbard, Cited from "War, Peace, and the State"
Yep, we averted the Fiscal Cliff but still "kicked the can down the road". But guess what's coming next? Another Credit Rating Downgrade, I'm callin' it!
AA to A here we come...
And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
I hope the US gets down graded its balance sheet is absurd. Nothing is ever going to get cut. Everyone's taxes are going up so they can spend more.
This is the kind of attitude that leads us to these problems. Cuts will be made, and we can only hope that these are done responsibly in a balanced approach.(meaning having no sacred cows like military, corporate welfare, or safety nets)
Instead of cutting things maybe we should try to reform them. Change a few numbers here and there while maintaining each and every program.
You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.
If it's bipartisan then it's pretty much guaranteed to be evil. Nothing fundamentally has changed to avoid the real cliff.
How is a bipartisan "thing" evil? Are you so far right that even moderates scare you? This just goes to show you how far right some people in this country are. Relative to how far right far right goes the far left people seem moderate lol.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Morgan: While I do agree about redundant regulation like you're talking about - its something that should really be its own subcategory. For every deregulation suggestion that fixes a redundancy there's many others that attempt to truly deregulate something.
This is the kind of attitude that leads us to these problems. Cuts will be made, and we can only hope that these are done responsibly in a balanced approach.(meaning having no sacred cows like military, corporate welfare, or safety nets)
We just had a "deal" that basically threw the Budget Control Act from the last debt ceiling standoff out the window. If both parties can't agree to spending cuts now (especially when we just had an election), then they'll never cut spending. As long as interest rates remain at ultra-low rates and foreigners continue to buy treasuries, there will be no incentive from Congress or Obama to cut spending.
Instead of cutting things maybe we should try to reform them. Change a few numbers here and there while maintaining each and every program.
We're at a point where we basically have to slash government spending from all facets. The warfare and the welfare state have to come to an end, or otherwise the dollar will come to an end.
thats a bit extreme. I do understand we need to make a turning point sooner rather than later but we are in no immediate danger. All of the things you and all other major conservative posters on the forum are talking about is a default several years away.
Again I agree we cannot continue the way we are right now for the next decade. But soon as the economy picks up and fewer and fewer people are on these welfare progras then we can get on a better track.
Honestly the best way to fix the budget is to get America off the welfare state. Best way to do that is to help the lower income individuals get training and jobs that will allow them to make enough money to not need government assistance. Also the Social security argument doesn't make any sense at all. Its decades away AND its possible it may balance ITSELF out without any help from congress at all.
why the social security "crisis" SEEMS to be so bad is because for the first time ever there are a higher percentage of retired social security recievers. Here are the causes of this perfect storm of phantom crisis.
1) Baby boomers happened. so an extreme and abrupt increase of babies born in a generation with the likes we've never recorded in America.
2) the baby boomers are the first generation to EVER consider not having children and also birth control became a common thing. So they had fewer children than previous generations. This caused a massive surge of a specific generation of people. A bulge if you will in the population age curve.
3) Medical advances makes it much easier for them to live on average 20 years longer than the generations of days past. So even the parents of some baby boomers have stuck around as they would be our 90 year olds. And its expected that several of our baby boomers will last within their ripe years.
4) A drop in the economy causing a shortage as well as tons of other domino effects that lead into deficite spending and debt. So for the first time ever we have a large elderly population with fewer and fewer young working folk and then we hit a major recession.
These 4 things have come together to cause a phantom crisis for Social security. Several of them will work themselves out.
They will start to die off in this decade between 2010 and 2020. Several will have died by the year 2030 and I would estimate that by 2040 there will be none left. so this magical mysterious bulge in the age curve will be gone and no more. thus saving us milions and millions in the program.
Secondly the economy will get better. It always does. Its not on the verge of default but is steadily working its way forward. When the ecnomy gets back on track then more money will come in and can easily pay for it.
Lastly other government spending will HOPEFULLY elapse such as the wars winding down. Also they should save a few hundred million dollars against the war on drugs by legalization of marijuana(which by itself is already showing its capabilities of being a multi million dollar industry generating tens of thousands in revenue in just a few states alone already)
When this comes to pass then social security will be fine way before it ever defaults. And if it still isn't then the smallest of changes can fix it.
This is the kind of attitude that leads us to these problems. Cuts will be made, and we can only hope that these are done responsibly in a balanced approach.(meaning having no sacred cows like military, corporate welfare, or safety nets)
We just had a "deal" that basically threw the Budget Control Act from the last debt ceiling standoff out the window. If both parties can't agree to spending cuts now (especially when we just had an election), then they'll never cut spending. As long as interest rates remain at ultra-low rates and foreigners continue to buy treasuries, there will be no incentive from Congress or Obama to cut spending.
Instead of cutting things maybe we should try to reform them. Change a few numbers here and there while maintaining each and every program.
We're at a point where we basically have to slash government spending from all facets. The warfare and the welfare state have to come to an end, or otherwise the dollar will come to an end.
as per wiki
In 2010, the Federal government of the USA spent an average of $11,041 per citizen (per capita)... Of the 20 largest economies, only six spent less per citizen: South Korea ($4557), Brazil ($2813), Russia ($2458), China ($1010), and India ($226). Of the 13 that spent more, Norway and Sweden top the list with per citizen spending of $40908 and $26760 respectively.
It is not just our spending that is the problem. we actually generate less revenue than most of the top 20 economies in the world. Another thing that you don't see is the fact that through tax breaks and over ways we actually spend around 60% more on corporate welfare than social safety nets.
As a matter of fact "corporate welfare" and tax loopholes has our effective tax rate on average for corporations just a hair above 12%. Compare this to other developed countries which average between 20% and 30%.
Our spending is actually mostly on par now that the wars have ended. We just need to get rid of the excesses still left from that period and move forward.
As per the deficit how fast do we actually have to pay it off? If we cut a few things we could pay it of over a long period of time since we are really not really in the red as far as year to year spending goes. A number I have seen puts the last two wars at around 11-12trillion. Then the bush tax cuts put up around 4-5trillion. That might as well be our whole entire deficit. The rest that left came from the loss of tax dollars, and the extensive need of social safety nets by more people as people were struggling. Whats to say that this won't somewhat reverse as our economy recovers?
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
It is not just our spending that is the problem. we actually generate less revenue than most of the top 20 economies in the world. Another thing that you don't see is the fact that through tax breaks and over ways we actually spend around 60% more on corporate welfare than social safety nets.
As a matter of fact "corporate welfare" and tax loopholes has our effective tax rate on average for corporations just a hair above 12%. Compare this to other developed countries which average between 20% and 30%.
As per the deficit how fast do we actually have to pay it off? If we cut a few things we could pay it of over a long period of time since we are really not really in the red as far as year to year spending goes. A number I have seen puts the last two wars at around 11-12trillion. Then the bush tax cuts put up around 4-5trillion. That might as well be our whole entire deficit. The rest that left came from the loss of tax dollars, and the extensive need of social safety nets by more people as people were struggling. Whats to say that this won't somewhat reverse as our economy recovers?
I just had a few questions about your numbers and the terms you were using.
Can you define "Social Safety Nets" in detail so we know more specifically what you are referring to and we can verify the information.
Can you define "Corporate Welfare" and thusly what sorts of ways in which our current system allows them to pay such low rates, such as the rates in the example you gave?
Can you provide a link or reference from an official source that explains the costs of the war, and relatedly the YEARLY costs of the war to which allowed you to get to the number you gave?
The Bush tax cuts (including the ones we just made permanant for anyone making less than $400k/year) number seems correct based upon other information Ive seen, though one has to wonder what our current economy would look like if they were all taken away, if it stifled our economy, then that would reduce the money the government was able to take in, in taxes, which could turn into a net negative depending upon. I know people seemed pretty freaked out at those cuts expiring.
I agree that if the economy gets rolling again, then that will help on the revenue side, and reduce costs on things like welfare and unemployment.
Anyhow, if you could answer the above questions I would appreciate it, as it would give some common basis and understanding for us to be able to discuss the topic further :).
Corporate Welfare is subsidies from the government to major corporations. The majority of which go to large oil companies. Some smaller corporate welfare programs exist but are a small fraction.
It is not just our spending that is the problem. we actually generate less revenue than most of the top 20 economies in the world. Another thing that you don't see is the fact that through tax breaks and over ways we actually spend around 60% more on corporate welfare than social safety nets.
As a matter of fact "corporate welfare" and tax loopholes has our effective tax rate on average for corporations just a hair above 12%. Compare this to other developed countries which average between 20% and 30%.
As per the deficit how fast do we actually have to pay it off? If we cut a few things we could pay it of over a long period of time since we are really not really in the red as far as year to year spending goes. A number I have seen puts the last two wars at around 11-12trillion. Then the bush tax cuts put up around 4-5trillion. That might as well be our whole entire deficit. The rest that left came from the loss of tax dollars, and the extensive need of social safety nets by more people as people were struggling. Whats to say that this won't somewhat reverse as our economy recovers?
I just had a few questions about your numbers and the terms you were using.
Can you define "Social Safety Nets" in detail so we know more specifically what you are referring to and we can verify the information.
Can you define "Corporate Welfare" and thusly what sorts of ways in which our current system allows them to pay such low rates, such as the rates in the example you gave?
Can you provide a link or reference from an official source that explains the costs of the war, and relatedly the YEARLY costs of the war to which allowed you to get to the number you gave?
The Bush tax cuts (including the ones we just made permanant for anyone making less than $400k/year) number seems correct based upon other information Ive seen, though one has to wonder what our current economy would look like if they were all taken away, if it stifled our economy, then that would reduce the money the government was able to take in, in taxes, which could turn into a net negative depending upon. I know people seemed pretty freaked out at those cuts expiring.
I agree that if the economy gets rolling again, then that will help on the revenue side, and reduce costs on things like welfare and unemployment.
Anyhow, if you could answer the above questions I would appreciate it, as it would give some common basis and understanding for us to be able to discuss the topic further :).
The issue with figuring the cost of wars is hard. I have seen estimates ranging from 1 trillion to around 15trillion. The issue is that the wars were not all payed through one certain fund just like our military isn't.
kinda out of date, but nothing more recent has been posted that I have seen. Again this money is somewhat laundered so it is tough to follow and track.
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
This is also the only War in American history that we didn't get an additional added tax to pay for said war. THE ONLY EVER. In fact not only did we fail to raise taxes to fund the war....we cut taxes and put ourselves in a deficite.
It is not just our spending that is the problem. we actually generate less revenue than most of the top 20 economies in the world. Another thing that you don't see is the fact that through tax breaks and over ways we actually spend around 60% more on corporate welfare than social safety nets.
As a matter of fact "corporate welfare" and tax loopholes has our effective tax rate on average for corporations just a hair above 12%. Compare this to other developed countries which average between 20% and 30%.
As per the deficit how fast do we actually have to pay it off? If we cut a few things we could pay it of over a long period of time since we are really not really in the red as far as year to year spending goes. A number I have seen puts the last two wars at around 11-12trillion. Then the bush tax cuts put up around 4-5trillion. That might as well be our whole entire deficit. The rest that left came from the loss of tax dollars, and the extensive need of social safety nets by more people as people were struggling. Whats to say that this won't somewhat reverse as our economy recovers?
I just had a few questions about your numbers and the terms you were using.
Can you define "Social Safety Nets" in detail so we know more specifically what you are referring to and we can verify the information.
Can you define "Corporate Welfare" and thusly what sorts of ways in which our current system allows them to pay such low rates, such as the rates in the example you gave?
Can you provide a link or reference from an official source that explains the costs of the war, and relatedly the YEARLY costs of the war to which allowed you to get to the number you gave?
The Bush tax cuts (including the ones we just made permanant for anyone making less than $400k/year) number seems correct based upon other information Ive seen, though one has to wonder what our current economy would look like if they were all taken away, if it stifled our economy, then that would reduce the money the government was able to take in, in taxes, which could turn into a net negative depending upon. I know people seemed pretty freaked out at those cuts expiring.
I agree that if the economy gets rolling again, then that will help on the revenue side, and reduce costs on things like welfare and unemployment.
Anyhow, if you could answer the above questions I would appreciate it, as it would give some common basis and understanding for us to be able to discuss the topic further :).
The issue with figuring the cost of wars is hard. I have seen estimates ranging from 1 trillion to around 15trillion. The issue is that the wars were not all payed through one certain fund just like our military isn't.
kinda out of date, but nothing more recent has been posted that I have seen. Again this money is somewhat laundered so it is tough to follow and track.
Thanks, I checked the information provided, and I guess looking at that, both of the numbers, while over 50 billion per year (at the time) are both still under $100 billion per year (at the time). Those would be part of the general budget to look into, but not neccessarily target first for cutting/adjustments. The big things like Social Security, Defense, and Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare, would be the three largest portions (by far) of the budget that would need to be looked into to figure out how things could be adjusted to allow for as much savings as possible, without harming those on SS, or using Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare(when it comes), or hindering our Defense too much as to hinder their ability to precent an attack on our country or our citizens. The rest of the budget would just need to be gone through line by line and it would have to be determined what was 100% neccessary, and what could be scaled back/removed without causing immediate harm to anyone, relatively speaking, in the process.
And yeah, the wars things is likely to be rough to calculate in total, for the yearly budgetary concerns one would need to be able to figure out just how much we are currently (as in 2012) spending on the war to be able to see just how much we would be saving if they were fully ended, and we left those countries fully to their own devices.
I personally have no real issue with food stamps, however I would like to see them more restricted as to what they can be used for. (Like no soda, no ultra-expensive/high end foods like really expensive steaks and such for a couple of examples).
Definitely lots for congress to figure out. I just hope 2 months is enough for them to deal with the sequestration and the debt ceiling issues.
This is also the only War in American history that we didn't get an additional added tax to pay for said war. THE ONLY EVER. In fact not only did we fail to raise taxes to fund the war....we cut taxes and put ourselves in a deficite.
We didn't raise taxes to pay for Desert Storm, but that was a rather brief engagement.
The principle is the same regardless of whether its military or entitlements:
You want a war? pay for it. You want more hand outs? pay for them. You want the government to provide roads? pay for them.
Instead we have borrow and print. People would be ticked off if every time you passed something taxes went up. Less stuff would get passed that's for sure.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
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To big to fail? government
auto bail outs? government
housing crisis? government
devaluation of the dollar? government
90% of the financial setbacks we have seen lately has been th fault of government trying to force the system to do something it wasn't suppose to do.
capitalism doesn't believe in to big to fail. capitalism doesn't bail out companies in distress. capitalism doesn't prop up and support bubble markets as values are allowed to fluctuate naturaly to avoid those things.
This is an opinion. not a fact. a company can exist and many do just fine without a union. what unions are starting to realize all to late is that they are not needed by a company. just all the guys that use to make twinkies.
they are not needed. they union done. no one will hire them. they will buy the IP then move to another plant or build one in a right to work state.
You forget the number 1 rule of business. To make money. that is why a company exists. it exists for not other reason than to make money.
no one said this you are making stuff up.
actually it is a combination of those 3 or 4 things.
if you don't like what you make do something to make yourself more valuable.
having a high school diploma and working at walmart till you are 50 or 60 isn't going to make you wealthy you might get buy.
as neil bortz said one day. You make exactly what you are worth. IE someone pay's you what they feel you are worth and will be worth to them.
you want to make more then do something that improves yourself. that is the only way to do it.
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It's true that Tax Reform and Entitlement Reform isn't apart of this new bill that the Senate passed but it's better than going off the Fiscal Cliff with no deal at all. The country still has more hurdles to face such as the next "Debt Ceiling Crisis" where unfortunately we need to raise the Debt Ceiling again as a means of "kicking the can down the road" instead of a long term solution to get a new system of National Debt in place, but the problem I see with that is where is all the borrowed money going to go from the old system? It can't just magically disappear.
That's where Debt Reform comes into place where you find a solution to all that borrowed money before establishing a new system of National Debt/Deficit as confusing as that might sound. I don't think Congress will deal with this right after the Fiscal Cliff deal is all said and done since there is still a slew of other issues like how to establish Gun Control laws that doesn't destroy the 2nd Amendment or other kinds of Reforms that need to be passed through Congress. I still thought that Executive Order pay raise to Congress by the President last night was out of the blue considering the abyssmal approval rating of Congress who are very good at doing absolutely nothing.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Personally I think we should wait until they actually vote on the thing before we go claiming they are going to shoot it down and blaming what COULD happen based upon that.
Im hopeful that they will see that while this whole thing may not be perfect, that its the best they are likely toget without causing the harm that neither party wants to see occur.
Now, if they end up voting it down in the house, then I agree that we should condemn them for doing so. Until then, Ill at least give them a chance to do the right thing.
As for the president using an executive order to raise the pay of congress and what not. Honestly I was rather taken aback by that. It seems like whenever the government sets out to do something to fix their own fiscal messes, they just end up undoing it later on. Of all the people that shouldnt be getting raises right now..... Its congress and other government officials that continue to allow these messes to happen.
congress are the last people the need to be getting raises. although there are several house members and a couple of senators that have put forth bills to stop any pay raises to congress.
Thanks to Epic Graphics the best around.
Thanks to Nex3 for the avatar visit ye old sig and avatar forum
I challenge 90% of this. Too big to fail was a bad economic ideology but it is NOT what caused the recession.
Bailing out the banks also didn't "cause" the bad economy. Actually it just didn't help as much as they wanted. It in no way hurt the economy.
auto bailouts HELPED the economy. the situations that led to them needing to be bailed out is all private sector.
the housing market crash had nothing to do with the government.
Devaluation of the dollar is really the only thing I can agree with you on as being the government's fault. But its nothing new. and it is in no way the cause of our current situation.
A better estimate of our problems is not 90% government 10% other. More so I would say 10% government, 50% people who have broken capitalism, 20% of the housing market crash, 20% people hyping up everyone with fear mongering and stalling the market.
then we shall not meet eye to eye on this. I suppose history will just be on my side and fox news will be on yours.
You fall behind this like its some kind of safe zone. but those same people ***** when people start to not buy their products when they screw people. It should be on the news as a number one priority to tell every person in America what companies are doing what as far as where the money they make goes in spending. Screwing the country for a buck is not something I can simply condone.
So why shouldn't government step in to provide some protection for the people? If a compnay is only out to make money then we need some way to keep them in check.
Yet you nor any other conservative has ever said anything different. I only say "lol" as my response to this particular bit.
I will argue that all of the CEO's get paid far more than they are worth. Workers are worth more than they get in pay 9 out of 10 times. I'm not saying we need to pay our factory workers and cashiers 15 bucks and hour but our skilled work need higher pay.
Not quite. I challenge this. there was a slight false economy with the housing market and it was big enough to cause a fair amount of distress in our economic collapse. Though several factors were brought in to create the fullness of our economic unrest.
If we are a mediator we can still make plenty of money. We need more production that much is true. But we don't need to fall back into merchantalism. We can still have a very sucessful economy if we don't produce products. For example China has a really bad economic situation as does Japan and they both produce a lot of things. England for example produces even less than America. Historically that is true. America plays more key rolls than just producing.
Though I will say I agree with you that we need more but I am disagreeing merely by how much more you seem to be implying.
This is different than what you were saying earlier. If not then I read it differently and if is such the case I will concede the point. I agree we need to produce more but we don't have to export more than we import. Especially since we are the crux of the world's economy basically.
Now we don't need to just make a massive number of factory jobs. Especially low paying factory jobs. This isn't a route to sucess. This is a rouge to making an unbelievably poor low class of workers with no hope of leaving this situation. Factory workers shouldn't be a dime a dozen but rather people dedicated to a job and should have a Union.
"the system" I am refering to is capitalism itself. The idea that you start a company that a person owns rather than the government. Having to fit within regulations does not mean its government controlled.
Its not picking winners and loosers to have regulations. Regulations are necessary.
I already responded to this but seems like a good idea to recap my points.
1) We need to produce more.
2) We don't have to produce more than we consume
3) Low paying factory jobs I do not support. Union jobs with benefits I do support. Technology can replace the majority of these menial jobs.
4) Skilled work is more important. we need to have people learn a "trade" rather than just low pay work.
The way I approach the overregulated argument is rather simple. Think of a three layer sandwich, and then eat it every single day. For a large person this is possible, for a smaller person it is not and requires the process to be broken down. However, as with anything too much food in your system causes blocked arteries.
The sandwich is the three layers of government regulations, and the arteries are capital, labor, and time wasted on compliance. I have said before that we only need one of something, whether that is state or federal I don't care so as much it works. Regulatory compliance is a nightmare for manufacturing especially and to pretend otherwise is an outright joke.
I don't mean deregulate like how we did in the 1990's, but rather what Greenspan and Warren both agreed with stuff like paper work consolidation and the like. It should take work to make sure people are compliant, but not onerous for the government or for the capitalist to get into the game. The sooner a compliant and wisely ran plant and other business is up and running, the better on return on investment for everyone.
If you have to send paper work in triplicate form with the same data to three different agencies all rating the same thing, what work does that do for anyone? Even the regulators could be regulating something more profound in other areas if they had to do less paperwork themselves.
This is the way I see deregulation and small government, whenever A@W was starting up they approached FDR about using steam on their root bear mugs. The steam was cracking their mugs from high heat and costing them untold profits, so instead switching over to soap and water they were able to increase their cash reserve while still making sure that the public wasn't sick from unwashed mugs. Which in anarchy, an unwashed mug would be more common.
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition.
Individualities may form communities, but it is institutions alone that can create a nation.
Nothing succeeds like the appearance of success.
Here is my principle: Taxes shall be levied according to ability to pay. That is the only American principle.
House passed the Senate bill. It is now going to Obama. I doubt he will not sign it. Its possible he has already signed it but no official news. But it is offically passed congress and on its way to the president. It was more difficult getting through the house but it had the strongest bi-partisan support EVER of any non-trivial bill in the 112th congressional history in the senate.
EDIT:
However the bill is very much a short term measure. In 3 months at the end of March we face another cliff that should be better at making a more permanent legislation. However it will be handled by the 113th congress not the 112th congress. I spent a few hours watching some goodbye speeches from congressional members that are leaving. It was rather touching. I do hope that this next congress will be less extreme and more prone to bi-partisan efforts. There was a decent bi-partisan work with this final bill that will kick the problem down the road a few months for some real debate. I can only hope they actually start working on this Friday after they get sworn in on Thursday.
I'm still reading the hundred and fifity-something page bill that has been proposed but its very much compromised on both sides it seems. It trends towards democrats but not as bad as the last ones. At least not thus far. I'm on page 22 right now.
AA to A here we come...
And people around the world wonder why the United States is now the laughing stock of the advanced world. House Republicans just make me wanna puke especially those douschebags from the Tea Party...
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
At this point I am happy they even agreed to essentially do nothing. First thing they have agreed on in years.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
You are of course entitled to your opinion, if you dont like the house republicans, thats up to you, however, they did pass the bipartisan bill that the senate came up with. I for one am glad to see that they put their partisan politics aside and agreed to pass it, to at least prevent us from going off the cliff, or at least averting the main problems that would have occured if we had for even a single business day.
What we do have now though, as mentioned, is a situation where we have around 2 months or so, to figure something out both in regards to the cuts side of things that didnt really get dealt with with this agreement, and of course the debt ceiling. I do have a feeling we will likely be right back here again in 2 months, unfortunately, but with any luck, having that extra 2 months and having actually come to the most recent agreement will give them a better working relationship to come up with a deal to avert any other issues.
Both sides have had significant issues this entire time dealing with this stuff, everyone from both parties, both houses of congress, and even the white house. I was glad to see Biden get in there and help them work something out, so that was certainly a promising turn of events. I just hope both parties learned from this situation how important these issues are and that they need to take care of this stuff NOW and not keep putting it off till later. They now have 2 months, I hope they can work hard and work with one another to work something out NOT at the last minute this time.
As for a downgrade, well, if they can manage to come up with a deal in a couple months to avoid the debt ceiling (and no, we wouldnt default even if we did have a government shutdown, any such claims are 100% false, we bring in enough in taxes to easily cover the relatively small amount we pay in interest on the debt, vs the other parts of the government budget.) then hopefully we can avoid another downgrade, especially if they are able to come up with a good large solid deal to make sure we can make some significant dents into the massive deficit that we currently are dealing with.
When/if we get past that, then hopefully we'll finally have some solid certainty for the economy to be able to move on into the future with. If not, then yeah, it has the potential to be a disaster. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
It's not that I don't like the House Republicans, it's that I'm fed up with their partisan politics and I'd like to see them be more bipartisan in Congress where they work more for the benefit of the American people (including Middle Class and Poor) instead of their own constituence. But I am glad that they passed a bipartisan bill that was made in the Senate. There was a time when Washington had a good name, we need to get back to those times again.
There's no point in taking the country hostage for something that could of devastated not just our economy in general but for consumer confidence in Wall Street as well when we are slowly trying to get ourselves out of the greatest economic crisis since the Great Depression, when Unemployment has gone down from 7% to maybe even lower If we work hard to keep creating jobs in this country. Sure we got more challenges ahead but only If we are united as a country, otherwise divided we fall.
"Restriction breeds creativity." - Sheldon Menery on EDH / Commander in Magic: The Gathering
"Cancel Culture is the real reason why everyone's not allowed to have nice things anymore." - Anonymous
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul?" - Mark 8:36
"Most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution." - Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
"Every life decision is always a risk / reward proposition." - Sanjay Gupta
Well, to be fair, their job as representatives is to vote for what the people that voted them into office want. This goes for either side of the isle both democrats and republicans. Part of the problem is that what both sides believe, often are at odds on many key issues. With the country so split right now, we have a situation where the congress is as split as we have seen it before as well and as a result. If the republicans get voted into office by the people that voted them in, to not raise taxes and to cut government expenditures, then thats what they are going to vote for, because that is what the people that voted them into office wanted. The other side is true for the democrats. If the democrats get voted into office by the people that voted them in, to raise taxes (on the wealthy), and to not cut, or to only cut things like defense, then thats what they are going to vote for, because thats what the people they represent want.
What Im hopeful for, is that both sides will see that no one is going to be able to get 100% of what they want, and compromise is going to have to happen (this applies to both democrats and republicans, as they both have issues giving enough to try to be able to find that middle ground). In the end, we have about 2 months, and all we can do, unfortunately, is sit back and hope that they can work something out, and show that what happenned in the last couple days is more indicative of the future than what we saw before that.
I hope the US gets down graded its balance sheet is absurd. Nothing is ever going to get cut. Everyone's taxes are going up so they can spend more.
If it's bipartisan then it's pretty much guaranteed to be evil. Nothing fundamentally has changed to avoid the real cliff.
This is the kind of attitude that leads us to these problems. Cuts will be made, and we can only hope that these are done responsibly in a balanced approach.(meaning having no sacred cows like military, corporate welfare, or safety nets)
Instead of cutting things maybe we should try to reform them. Change a few numbers here and there while maintaining each and every program.
How is a bipartisan "thing" evil? Are you so far right that even moderates scare you? This just goes to show you how far right some people in this country are. Relative to how far right far right goes the far left people seem moderate lol.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
Re: People misusing the term Vanilla to describe a flying, unleash (sometimes trample) critter.
We just had a "deal" that basically threw the Budget Control Act from the last debt ceiling standoff out the window. If both parties can't agree to spending cuts now (especially when we just had an election), then they'll never cut spending. As long as interest rates remain at ultra-low rates and foreigners continue to buy treasuries, there will be no incentive from Congress or Obama to cut spending.
We're at a point where we basically have to slash government spending from all facets. The warfare and the welfare state have to come to an end, or otherwise the dollar will come to an end.
Again I agree we cannot continue the way we are right now for the next decade. But soon as the economy picks up and fewer and fewer people are on these welfare progras then we can get on a better track.
Honestly the best way to fix the budget is to get America off the welfare state. Best way to do that is to help the lower income individuals get training and jobs that will allow them to make enough money to not need government assistance. Also the Social security argument doesn't make any sense at all. Its decades away AND its possible it may balance ITSELF out without any help from congress at all.
why the social security "crisis" SEEMS to be so bad is because for the first time ever there are a higher percentage of retired social security recievers. Here are the causes of this perfect storm of phantom crisis.
1) Baby boomers happened. so an extreme and abrupt increase of babies born in a generation with the likes we've never recorded in America.
2) the baby boomers are the first generation to EVER consider not having children and also birth control became a common thing. So they had fewer children than previous generations. This caused a massive surge of a specific generation of people. A bulge if you will in the population age curve.
3) Medical advances makes it much easier for them to live on average 20 years longer than the generations of days past. So even the parents of some baby boomers have stuck around as they would be our 90 year olds. And its expected that several of our baby boomers will last within their ripe years.
4) A drop in the economy causing a shortage as well as tons of other domino effects that lead into deficite spending and debt. So for the first time ever we have a large elderly population with fewer and fewer young working folk and then we hit a major recession.
These 4 things have come together to cause a phantom crisis for Social security. Several of them will work themselves out.
They will start to die off in this decade between 2010 and 2020. Several will have died by the year 2030 and I would estimate that by 2040 there will be none left. so this magical mysterious bulge in the age curve will be gone and no more. thus saving us milions and millions in the program.
Secondly the economy will get better. It always does. Its not on the verge of default but is steadily working its way forward. When the ecnomy gets back on track then more money will come in and can easily pay for it.
Lastly other government spending will HOPEFULLY elapse such as the wars winding down. Also they should save a few hundred million dollars against the war on drugs by legalization of marijuana(which by itself is already showing its capabilities of being a multi million dollar industry generating tens of thousands in revenue in just a few states alone already)
When this comes to pass then social security will be fine way before it ever defaults. And if it still isn't then the smallest of changes can fix it.
as per wiki
It is not just our spending that is the problem. we actually generate less revenue than most of the top 20 economies in the world. Another thing that you don't see is the fact that through tax breaks and over ways we actually spend around 60% more on corporate welfare than social safety nets.
As a matter of fact "corporate welfare" and tax loopholes has our effective tax rate on average for corporations just a hair above 12%. Compare this to other developed countries which average between 20% and 30%.
Our spending is actually mostly on par now that the wars have ended. We just need to get rid of the excesses still left from that period and move forward.
As per the deficit how fast do we actually have to pay it off? If we cut a few things we could pay it of over a long period of time since we are really not really in the red as far as year to year spending goes. A number I have seen puts the last two wars at around 11-12trillion. Then the bush tax cuts put up around 4-5trillion. That might as well be our whole entire deficit. The rest that left came from the loss of tax dollars, and the extensive need of social safety nets by more people as people were struggling. Whats to say that this won't somewhat reverse as our economy recovers?
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
I just had a few questions about your numbers and the terms you were using.
Can you define "Social Safety Nets" in detail so we know more specifically what you are referring to and we can verify the information.
Can you define "Corporate Welfare" and thusly what sorts of ways in which our current system allows them to pay such low rates, such as the rates in the example you gave?
Can you provide a link or reference from an official source that explains the costs of the war, and relatedly the YEARLY costs of the war to which allowed you to get to the number you gave?
The Bush tax cuts (including the ones we just made permanant for anyone making less than $400k/year) number seems correct based upon other information Ive seen, though one has to wonder what our current economy would look like if they were all taken away, if it stifled our economy, then that would reduce the money the government was able to take in, in taxes, which could turn into a net negative depending upon. I know people seemed pretty freaked out at those cuts expiring.
I agree that if the economy gets rolling again, then that will help on the revenue side, and reduce costs on things like welfare and unemployment.
Anyhow, if you could answer the above questions I would appreciate it, as it would give some common basis and understanding for us to be able to discuss the topic further :).
-Welfare
-Unemployment
-Food stamps
-medicaide
non-related saftey nets
-Social Security
-Medicare
Corporate Welfare is subsidies from the government to major corporations. The majority of which go to large oil companies. Some smaller corporate welfare programs exist but are a small fraction.
This is the wiki link to the numbers for total cost of over seas wars
The issue with figuring the cost of wars is hard. I have seen estimates ranging from 1 trillion to around 15trillion. The issue is that the wars were not all payed through one certain fund just like our military isn't.
As far as numbers on corporate welfare I found this link with numbers up to 2005. http://thinkbynumbers.org/government-spending/corporate-welfare/corporate-welfare-statistics-vs-social-welfare-statistics/
kinda out of date, but nothing more recent has been posted that I have seen. Again this money is somewhat laundered so it is tough to follow and track.
The truth is we have so much we could cut before we start with social safety nets. Also some programs we may spend X amount of money on, but actually have partial returns. SNAP(food stamps) actually has a decent return on investment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supplemental_Nutrition_Assistance_Program#Macroeconomic_effect
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
Thanks, I checked the information provided, and I guess looking at that, both of the numbers, while over 50 billion per year (at the time) are both still under $100 billion per year (at the time). Those would be part of the general budget to look into, but not neccessarily target first for cutting/adjustments. The big things like Social Security, Defense, and Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare, would be the three largest portions (by far) of the budget that would need to be looked into to figure out how things could be adjusted to allow for as much savings as possible, without harming those on SS, or using Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare(when it comes), or hindering our Defense too much as to hinder their ability to precent an attack on our country or our citizens. The rest of the budget would just need to be gone through line by line and it would have to be determined what was 100% neccessary, and what could be scaled back/removed without causing immediate harm to anyone, relatively speaking, in the process.
And yeah, the wars things is likely to be rough to calculate in total, for the yearly budgetary concerns one would need to be able to figure out just how much we are currently (as in 2012) spending on the war to be able to see just how much we would be saving if they were fully ended, and we left those countries fully to their own devices.
I personally have no real issue with food stamps, however I would like to see them more restricted as to what they can be used for. (Like no soda, no ultra-expensive/high end foods like really expensive steaks and such for a couple of examples).
Definitely lots for congress to figure out. I just hope 2 months is enough for them to deal with the sequestration and the debt ceiling issues.
We didn't raise taxes to pay for Desert Storm, but that was a rather brief engagement.
The principle is the same regardless of whether its military or entitlements:
You want a war? pay for it. You want more hand outs? pay for them. You want the government to provide roads? pay for them.
Instead we have borrow and print. People would be ticked off if every time you passed something taxes went up. Less stuff would get passed that's for sure.