I don't understand why he plays vampiric tutor over demonic tutor. Maybe he debated that, I only half-read the article. I still value card parity higher than instant-speed.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
I don't understand why he plays vampiric tutor over demonic tutor. Maybe he debated that, I only half-read the article. I still value card parity higher than instant-speed.
It's because of the casting cost. 1 mana is alot cheaper in this deck than 2.
I can see where you're comming from, but... I'd have to actually sleeve up the thing to have a clear cut opinion.
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The interesting thing about us legacy players is that we consider Force of Will, Dark Ritual, Blood Moon, Tarmogoyf and Swords to Plowshare to be fair.
In my opinion {remember I said my opinion} I feel this deck is horrible with the power in it, and I'm in shock it has a thread on here. With that in mind this deck would be almost worthless without the power.
Further more there are better decks like Noble`Goyf, BuG, all-american fish if you're looking for a deck with some first place potential that runs critters.
I've seen this deck in action and beat it with multi choices, completely hosed it with Noble, and handed it its mule with BuG {I figured the matchup wasn't in my flavor, but I was wrong it appeared}. I ripped its heart out with Unseen`Confidant and destroyed any hopes in my last mathup using my Bob'Storm deck.
I think this is one of those rogue decks you'll see at a tourney, but with my ex playing in my sure of them I'll probably never see it take a top spot, {yeah it has won a few but I'm going on word of mouth to give it that much credit...I only found 1} but I would try a deck that has a little more consistant shot of placing beyond 6th place {it's common for this deck if it does make the top 8 to take no higher then 6th}.
My research has come from Morphling.DE for those that want to challenge it, and I'm still searching for any reason or excuses to build it....I just can't see one solid reason though.
I read the article, and just because one talented member wrote it....still doesn't justify any logic on why I would {or anyone for that matter} want to build, play, or even try to argue for this sad excuse of a answer deck....and yeah I can't wait to reply back to someone that tries to tell me it's not just that.
If you want a tech deck {or creature based vintage deck} the're about 5 other decks that can show better results {I can share a few} or if you're into what I like to call gamble decks {snake eyes on this one}....then this might be the deck for you.
My reasoning for evening replying to this thread is do to the testing of late against it, and maybe I'm just a a seasoned player....or maybe this deck isn't consistant. Either way I hope all my matchups are against players with this old rusty boat, {I lost all faith watching my buddy take it out with SteelCityVault} because after my research and ofcourse testing it poses no threat against the majority of the decks {just can't hide from the reports} you see in almost every tourney outcome showing first place decks.
Want more proof then check this out....and I'm sorry but 8th place {as noted if and when it breaks into the top 8 it places on ave 6th-8th} just doesn't cut it for me!
Bottomline I'll take my chances with a Elf deck if I had the options between the two. Completely and utterly hopeless vs todays powerhouse builds. If it was as good as the article pretends it to be it would have results worth praising about....and for anyone that reads my post they would know I would be the first member to highlight those facts.....sadly this has nothing but glitter on it, and without those facts {the ones that show its a contender for the LOTUS so to speak} that glitter will slowly flake off.
I love Stephen Menendian articles and ofcourse his skill and gameplay, but this is one of the most misleading deck I've probably ever seen, played against, and yes discussed in the open public....and that's my opinion...and I'm putting myself on the records for sharing it with evidence right now!
On a happy note, I wish all the members and MOD's here on this wonderful site a merry Xmas and a hapy new new.
S.M.
Placing in the Top8 of the Vintage World Championship isn't good enough for you? Sure, it didn't take the title, but that might have been an unlucky pairing in the QtrFinals. I think its high placing shows it has lots of potential as a dedicated hate strategy.
Well I'll throw some Rogue at it later, {seeing the top decks I have access to just walk all over it, and that's pretty much my thoughts with regards to worlds, but I don't know those full results and other tourney reports seem to not give it any praise too} but as for the actual purpose of the deck it's far from measuring up. I mean I've other players that are fit to test/play against. I'm a good player I feel, but I'm honest enough to state I shouldn't be able to train this deck with each match I play.
Sometimes decks look good on paper. In this I feel there's a nice selection of hate placed in a perfect order, but if it can't cut the mustard against the BIG BOY decks then what real purpose does it have?
To me a 6th to 8th place finish {this where I'm having a problem with because this isn't a new deck that has just showed its face} isn't what I seek. Sadly my level of competitive play has a higher hunger. I want to win, not cross my fingers in hopes of a place finish.
Anyways I shared my opinion and listed facts. There's no need for me to respond again to this thread unless I'm asked a question or quoted so I'll keep the rest of my thoughts to myself;).
I'm sure they're a few players out there that enjoy this deck and will settle for subpar results. I'm just shocked from the article hype....and when it comes from a pro player that knows the results as well as I do in this matter....it just says to me that someone wants it to be something special and nomore. If you're a player like me you can see right past that glitter I mentioned.
S.M.
This deck especially demolishes Tezz, the most-played competitive deck. Pro players will tell you what bad match-ups some of the "big boys" have vs Meandeck Beatz.
Yet sadly the facts tell a different story {FACTS WOULD BE TOURNEY OUTCOMES} Doom don't they? I mean my testing can be viewed as just one man who's maybe talented enough to understand the matchup, {siding ect} but this deck still can't run from the facts....so I wonder why it can't beat Tezz and or for that matter demolish {these are your words} any of the top tier decks then to gain a place higher then 6th on ave {I used the term average, and yes it has had a freak 2-3 place finish or two, and from word of mouth a first place finish once...but ofcourse I can't find that report}.
S.M.
This deck especially demolishes Tezz, the most-played competitive deck. Pro players will tell you what bad match-ups some of the "big boys" have vs Meandeck Beatz.
I'm not sure what facts you're referring to. It does beat Tezz and has beaten it in tournaments so I assume you were talking about something else.
No problem give me the reports and I'll check them out. I've been waiting for those from you actually. If you didn't catch my post I would glace at them again. I have left comments that correctly place this deck as the false hope. Facts are listed with regards to the tourney outcomes.....you must have not read them....which is kind of taxing since we're going back and forth and you have no case. I on the other hand have given a solid one....asuming is not look good on this matter Doom...you're better then this..... once you read my post.
So when you get some time if you can share at least 5 first place winning reports {this would almost place it above rogue, I on the other hand if challenged do provide that kind of info to ensure my statements are sound} that would be wonderful;).....If not I have proven my point good member. If you're just wanting the last word you're going to get it if you come back without a report, some sort of case {A case isn't the assuming it's good because of an opinion on this matter}. I know when the situation is getting stale. I'm doing this for those that have interested and do not want to be mislead or we're right back to that glitter.
S.M.
It would take 5 1st place finishes to put this deck above rogue in your mind? Stop joking around man.
....give me 2 then {give me a freaking case...you keep replying back without one!}, and now you're the one beating around the bush Doom!
Here's an example;
When I created the Noble`Goyf thread I provided some kind of proof that's a Top Tier competitive on paper badass deck worth the hype! 1 2 3 4 5 6
I will and can go all day, and I don't know why you won't provide a case Doom. This is nonsense because if asking for 5 1st place results is too much, then this deck is rogue, and any pro would confirm that fact. I'm not trying to highlight your lack of knowledge on this topic, but sadly you're forcing me to bring out the guns. I admire your will to fight!, but I don't know why you won't showcase that knowledge if you have it and or any with regards on this matter. Now this started out as my opinion, but as you can see it's far past that point. I'm showing and giving proof of WHY I feel this way. You're contesting it without a case, and without that case you're not coming off as an adult on the matter. I don't doubt your hunger for competitive drive, so this isn't a punt at you as a person. Now DOOM this isn't about you so again I'll ask give me the proof.....or please let this rest and I'll walk away if you can't give me anything or at least don't address me anymore on this thread! You best of all know I stay on topic, show the facts I have access to, and for that matter try my hardest to not be misleading.
In my opinion outside all this crap I've given you, this deck just seems like a mirage for a man dying of thirst stranded on a desert......1000 miles away from a single drop of water...anything liquid starts to look good after 3 days without it....even motor oil. Remember when this is all said and done I just asked you for one drop, and you gave me nothing after 3 replies.
S.M.
Since Null Rod seems so central to this strategy, I would figure that playing Enlightened Tutors to act as Rods 5-8 is worth trying. Enlightened Tutor also finds Canonist, Seal of Cleansing, Choke, and some rather important sideboard cards. I'm also sure there is some good removal spell for Leviathan that can be tutored, though I'm currently too tired to think of one.
Also, was Tangle Wire ever tried out in here? The deck has a mana-disruption plan that shrinks your opponent's mana base, and Tangle Wire would be a nail in the coffin to let you swing through for a couple of turns with a Goyf to get some damage in.
S.M. - how many first place finishes at big tournaments have you had? And with which decks?
For me, a deck that places in the Top8 of the Vintage World Championships after being around a few months (long enough not to be a surprise and short enough not to be perfected yet) tells me it's a deck with potential. I don't see your point about a deck needing to WIN in order to be viable as valid until you show me that you yourself have ever achieved the results you keep on raving about.
My post have nothing to do as me as a personal person, so if you want to get intimate with me as a person I have a P.M. box. Anything more would not be on the topic, and if all will make you look foolish because my post are pretty darn clear....when read.
Now to the topic of the thread. My whole opinion was soley based on a deck that hasn't taken that top seed so to speak with any consistant outcomes {again a couple 3 place, and on ave random 6-8th place finishes when or if it makes the top can't speak any louder}.And for that matter expressed that a deck that can get into the top 8 but can't win the big for me isn't viable enough? Think about!
Now if you go back and reread my post I have several clear points that express and highlight these facts.
I will state again....no case has been shown to prove me otherwise {almost 5 troll replies have been made though} and a personal track record that shows I have had my share of Iowa victories from mason city, clinton, fort dodge and over to spencer wouldn't help you out here {not to mention a play group that does travel to the likes of cali/chicago ect}....finding something to express that's on topic might good member. To note as well this deck might be new to you as it appears but it's not, {something you might want to look into} and you can find some dated reports if you take the time to do the work as I've that date past 3 months.
Now go look at the threads I have created, check if I'm par with how I view things and that should be enough proof you're talking to someone that's competitive...otherwise I can't show you anymore then what your eyes what to see.
I think I've now said all I can without going into any more details since I'm the one who has clearly done the heavy lifting with all the net work to prove my case {would be nice if someone else did the same}. Otherwise this is a waste of time now with a high chance of a flame war.
I now rest my opinion {there's no need to have that war if I have the gun and others have a stick} and wish all that continue this thread have positive results.... the ones I haven't been able to find nor see.
Happy year folks;
S.M.
It seems that there are different arguments going on:
1) GW Beats is a viable contender because it demolishes Tezz.
2) GW Beats has potential, and is therefore worth working on to help it realize that potential.
For argument #1, it seems that S.M. would like concrete data that supports this conclusion, and it doesn't matter whether he/she is just a small-time Iowa player or not; tournament results would show how much of a contender the deck is in the current metagame. Based on tournament results, Noble Fish and BUG Fish would be better options if you wanted to play a Fish-type deck in this Tezz meta. I've looked at the past two months of tournament reports on TMD, and I've seen GW Beats decks in tournament fields, so it is played for sure; however, it has been outperformed by Noble and BUG Fish.
For argument #2, I think there is no doubt that the deck has potential. There are so many disruptive elements to this deck that cause headaches, starting with Null Rod, which is the cornerstone of any current anti-metagame deck. The problems with a deck like this are 1) if you don't get matched up against lots of Tezz-type decks, then it can be difficult to win a tournament, especially when you get into the loser's bracket no-man's land and get the second round fish/random.dec matchup. 2) Player perception: it seems too "fair" to be a "real" Vintage deck, so not a lot of players will choose to play this deck, giving it a much lower chance at putting up results.
It does share many elements with the successful "formula" for this type of deck; namely Null Rod and plenty of disruption, plus a decent clock, so it definitely has potential. The small amount of success it has had is enough for me personally to say that it has potential (but potential can be such a frustratingly subjective evaluation; I mean, how many times have cards been prematurely labeled "junk" and then turned out to be amazing?). Whether or not that potential is more fully realized is another argument altogether.
I'm glad we had our PM burek, and I want to get this thread back on track if I can, because my goal since it's here wasn't to destroy it {I was in shock it was here, but that shock is over now} but to express my opinion from my testing and ofcourse online searches.
On that note just because I have my personal opinion and yes facts that support it doesn't mean I can't be a positive member once the dust has settled.
Now I hope I can walk away with all the facts and listing I've posted {this goes out to members that are considering this deck that want to WIN not place} and give you other members that want to ride the wave out a deck list to work with.
The sole Tundra is for the Ancestral Recall/Time walk and nomore. I could be wrong but this is the highest place finish to date for this archtype....now this isn't something to feel totally comfortable with but it's a better version then the current one posted on the thread.
I'm out;
click on my name for old version S.M.
Click on This name for tourney report! 3. Nick Vallas
It doesn't matter if you're a small time player or not, but saying things like "I don't care if this deck placed in the Top8 of the biggest and most important Vintage tournament in the world, I just care that it didn't win the whole thing" makes it sound like you're pretty much the elite in the T1 world. Since you're obviously not, such arguments are arrogant, ignorant and fail to have any meaning whatsoever.
Everyone knows there are currently 3-4 best decks. But saying that a deck "only" making 5th-8th over and over is pointless. That's like saying Hypergenesis isn't a good deck in extended because it lost in the semifinals. Sure, anyone that watched the semis knows it's pretty much a fluke because of a missed AoD trigger, but hey, it didn't win the whole thing so it obviously sucks, right?
I am not sure of this archetype yet but let me state my reasons and they may not be neccessarily relevant to this discussion.
The Vintage community seems slow to adopt new innovations and wants to see results before they fully embrace various cards as good. That is not to say that various innovators aren't willing to embrace new technologies such as Sharuum in Ichorid builds or Curfew to deal with Inkwell.
But look at the top decks, oftentimes these decks don't have any cards in them that have been printed in the past 5 years. Qasali Pridemage is very new, it's been in print only approximately a year - previous to that G/W only had Gaddock Teeg to show as it's spokesperson. I think people want to see that this archetype can beat more then Tezz before they fully embrace it - but remember that in a small tournament (under 32), there might be 8 Tezz decks while, GWbBeats might only be represented by 1 player. Tezz is going to do better most of the time until more people experiment with GWb.
There is a futher inclination, that many view this deck as metagame deck, trying to prey on the predominance of Tez/Vault/Key. Some are prejudiced, testing and acknowleding that it beats Tez, but that it's matchups are not great in other areas. But the reality might be that they are not familiar with all the in's and out's of the deck and that it has reasonable game versus a wider field.
Finally, this was originally suggested as GW Budget beats, and the idea that budget can compete but is generally outclassed by the brokeness and power of T1 is something that prejudices many players. People still think of it as a budget deck even though the later versions now do include more powerful cards.
Heck with all that said, I think there is more then 3-4 decks that are competitive in Vintage, I think that it's more like 9-12.
Quick stating of the obvious:
Even though they are both on color, make sure not to use seal or primordiums in this deck instead of the seal of cleansing. The ability to bin a tinker'd Sphinx of the Steel Wind makes the white version 20x better if there is no strain on the mana base.
I ran the GW decklist, with a few changes, at a local sanctioned event. My changes were due to card availability, such as Joten Grunts in for the Tarmagoyfs, and a lack of Wasteland. The list I ran was strictly inferior to the GW Meandecks list.
Anyway, in four rounds, my only trouble was with random.dec. Match one against Belcher was won on the weight of two first turn Gaddok Teegs. Interestingly, the one game of that match that I was on the draw, Belcher went off turn one and never gave me a chance to drop the Teeg!
I lost took match four against Oath, running a defensive build with Empyrial Archangel. Game one was no contest, with first turn seal of cleansing and second turn seal of primordium. Second game went to Oath, with me not being able to draw a single green mana source for about eight turns. Game three, I had to mulligan down to four, but eventually Tarriffed away the Angel with dual Shusher activation backup and then won with a topdecked Quasli Pridemage.
I dropped Round 2 (2-0) against a random all blue unpowered deck running Back to Basics and winning with Draining Whelk, but I am convinced that I blew it because I didn't play around his deck correctly. Pilot error.
Round 3 (2-1) was a black/white control/aggro deck with Nantuko Shades and heavy black discard. Again, pilot error cost this one. I was not paying attention and he demonic tutored through my midcensor.
So, yes, this deck has game. But for pilot error, it would have taken all comers I saw.
>>> UPDATE <<<
Or... maybe not.
I ran the deck again in a no-proxy tournament on Sunday. I tried to meta for generic aggro I expected to see, upping the creature removal, going GW only to make the mana base more resilient to wasteland, and including Icatian Javelineer to snipe down gro and fish style unpowered decks. While my expectations were correct, the deck pretty much failed on all fronts.
Match one was against The Rock or something similar. That deck did not care if I could stop artifacts, enchantments, countermagic, or small critters, and so the game was no contest. 0-2.
Match two was against a very interesting Selkie variant running a land toolbox with crop rotation, and Kudzu as the beater. I could keep the lid on for awhile in those games where I landed a javelineer to snipe down his creatures before they grew, but as soon as they got past 1/1 I had to hope to topdeck creature removal. Again, my disruption was basically worthless. 1-2.
Match three was the only one I won, against a GU fish deck running Lorescale as the primary win condition. Vexing Shushers were strong here, permitting me to push out creature removal for the Lorescales and weenie my way to victory. Even so, my artifact and enchantment disruption fell flat and the match was again just down to topdecking removal. 2-1.
Match four was against a RGw land destruction deck running Grim Lavamancers as removal and Greater Gargadon as win condition. Game one I got hosed by wastelands before I knew what I was playing. Game two and three I kept my mana base safe, and even kept him off of his own mana development with a nice Katari / Null Rod combo that stripped him of his artifact mana. Sadly, AGAIN, my deck's disruption pretty much missed the mark and the match went down to who topdecked more removal for the other side's creatures. 1-2.
The final match was against a pretty standard GU fish deck. This deck simply ramrodded me, but by this point I was not playing very well and probably kept hands I should have mulliganed away in favor of an early Vexing Shusher. 0-2.
I guess my conclusions are this. First off, I'm sure I made some errors of my own in piloting this deck, but none as severe as the silly ones from the first time I tried it. Also, the unpowered meta probably meant that this deck was a very poor choice. There were Staxx and Tezz players around, but the majority were just winning with creatures and this deck wasn't built to handle them. The fundemental problem with this deck is that, unless it has enemy artifacts, enchantments, and countermagic to hate on, it devolves into a deck full of grizzly bears.
Another interesting observation: two of the players who whupped GW Beatz were kind enough to play a second, casual match against a Suiblack deck I had with me. The Suiblack deck won handily in all of those matchups; I had not anticipated that it would be so good against fish-type decks. For the future, I will certainly bear in mind the lessons I learned here about paying attention to the meta!
(P.S. to the professional deck designer who suggested I put Abyssal Persecutors and Phyrexian Towers in my Suiblack deck: If I gave offense with my comment about the price of the card, it was unintended. You're correct, of course, and a deck including the cards you mentioned would likely be superior for most purposes to the deck as it exists. I do think we're on different ends of the design spectrum, that's all - I recognize that paying attention to card cost does basically cripple me by adding "more rules" to the metagame that other players don't have to respect. When my income substantially increases, perhaps I'll take your advice.)
I ran this build a few months back and did quite well with it. For those of you interested, knight of the reliquary is absolutely bananas in here. He fetches up strip mines, horizon canopy, wastelands, and gets HUGE.
That being said, I felt like I was lacking a bit of control without blue (hence my transition to fish). However, I feel that this is a very solid deck especially for those new to the format.
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Currently Playing: Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
does Leonin Arbiter give this deck the boost it needs to be a larger contender in the meta?
this deck could just hose everything right now...and being able to consistently screw fetch based mana and tutors on the first turn...ect would give this deck a huge edge. plus toss in ghost quarters and null rod, other decks just wont get mana period..
Currently Taking altered art Comissions. www.nf96alters.webs.com
Quick and Cheap Alters (looking to fill up some slots so some special pricing currently)
I'm looking at splashing red rather than blue or black for greater gargadon as my meta is filled with oath decks and gargadon can serve to sac forbidden orchard tokens.
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Smile your day could be worse, so I did smile and it was worse.
Ok for those who know me i am looking into this deck as a straight meta choice for the blue bell and NYC tournys. Below i am going to list some cards that i want to play and a very loose deck list. I have had some success on workstation but we all know how much stock you can hold in that. I am trying to narrow this deck down to a good build. I might also splash black for Dark Confidant and a tutor or two.
ok card choices i might wanna play
Tarmogoyf
Gaddock Tegg
Noble Heirarch
Qasali Pridemage
Kataki War's Wage
Ethersworn Canonist
Leonin Arbiter
Aven Mindscensor
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Utility spells
Swords to Plowshares
Natures Claim
Krosan Grip
Leyline of Sancitity
Tariff
Serentity
Now on the a very loose deck list, note this list does not have a black splash but i feel that it lacks consistency. Dark Confidant might give that
Now the meta i am talking about for those who do not play in the area is heavy shop decks, oath, dredge, and tez. There is always the randoms that i am not concerned with too much. now i know i am not playing wasteland, if i play the arbitor i like having 5 strip mines, if i dont 4x wastelands will be inserted. interested in any ideas, advice, or testing anyone else has had.
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
Creatures
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vexing Shusher
Enchantments
2 Choke
2 Seal Of Cleansing
2 Swords To Plowshares
Legendary Creatures
4 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kataki, War's Wage
Basic Lands
3 Forest
1 Plains
Lands
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
4 Ghostly Prison
1 Swords To Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Tariff
Updated List: (GWB)
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod
Creatures
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Choke
Instants
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
Legendary Creatures
4 Gaddock Teeg
Sorceries
4 Thoughtseize
Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Lands
2 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
Steve Menendian's article: Here
Menendian's article on the revised list: Here
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
It's because of the casting cost. 1 mana is alot cheaper in this deck than 2.
In my opinion {remember I said my opinion} I feel this deck is horrible with the power in it, and I'm in shock it has a thread on here. With that in mind this deck would be almost worthless without the power.
Further more there are better decks like Noble`Goyf, BuG, all-american fish if you're looking for a deck with some first place potential that runs critters.
I've seen this deck in action and beat it with multi choices, completely hosed it with Noble, and handed it its mule with BuG {I figured the matchup wasn't in my flavor, but I was wrong it appeared}. I ripped its heart out with Unseen`Confidant and destroyed any hopes in my last mathup using my Bob'Storm deck.
I think this is one of those rogue decks you'll see at a tourney, but with my ex playing in my sure of them I'll probably never see it take a top spot, {yeah it has won a few but I'm going on word of mouth to give it that much credit...I only found 1} but I would try a deck that has a little more consistant shot of placing beyond 6th place {it's common for this deck if it does make the top 8 to take no higher then 6th}.
My research has come from Morphling.DE for those that want to challenge it, and I'm still searching for any reason or excuses to build it....I just can't see one solid reason though.
I read the article, and just because one talented member wrote it....still doesn't justify any logic on why I would {or anyone for that matter} want to build, play, or even try to argue for this sad excuse of a answer deck....and yeah I can't wait to reply back to someone that tries to tell me it's not just that.
If you want a tech deck {or creature based vintage deck} the're about 5 other decks that can show better results {I can share a few} or if you're into what I like to call gamble decks {snake eyes on this one}....then this might be the deck for you.
My reasoning for evening replying to this thread is do to the testing of late against it, and maybe I'm just a a seasoned player....or maybe this deck isn't consistant. Either way I hope all my matchups are against players with this old rusty boat, {I lost all faith watching my buddy take it out with SteelCityVault} because after my research and ofcourse testing it poses no threat against the majority of the decks {just can't hide from the reports} you see in almost every tourney outcome showing first place decks.
Want more proof then check this out....and I'm sorry but 8th place {as noted if and when it breaks into the top 8 it places on ave 6th-8th} just doesn't cut it for me!
Bottomline I'll take my chances with a Elf deck if I had the options between the two. Completely and utterly hopeless vs todays powerhouse builds. If it was as good as the article pretends it to be it would have results worth praising about....and for anyone that reads my post they would know I would be the first member to highlight those facts.....sadly this has nothing but glitter on it, and without those facts {the ones that show its a contender for the LOTUS so to speak} that glitter will slowly flake off.
I love Stephen Menendian articles and ofcourse his skill and gameplay, but this is one of the most misleading deck I've probably ever seen, played against, and yes discussed in the open public....and that's my opinion...and I'm putting myself on the records for sharing it with evidence right now!
On a happy note, I wish all the members and MOD's here on this wonderful site a merry Xmas and a hapy new new.
S.M.
Well I'll throw some Rogue at it later, {seeing the top decks I have access to just walk all over it, and that's pretty much my thoughts with regards to worlds, but I don't know those full results and other tourney reports seem to not give it any praise too} but as for the actual purpose of the deck it's far from measuring up. I mean I've other players that are fit to test/play against. I'm a good player I feel, but I'm honest enough to state I shouldn't be able to train this deck with each match I play.
Sometimes decks look good on paper. In this I feel there's a nice selection of hate placed in a perfect order, but if it can't cut the mustard against the BIG BOY decks then what real purpose does it have?
To me a 6th to 8th place finish {this where I'm having a problem with because this isn't a new deck that has just showed its face} isn't what I seek. Sadly my level of competitive play has a higher hunger. I want to win, not cross my fingers in hopes of a place finish.
Anyways I shared my opinion and listed facts. There's no need for me to respond again to this thread unless I'm asked a question or quoted so I'll keep the rest of my thoughts to myself;).
I'm sure they're a few players out there that enjoy this deck and will settle for subpar results. I'm just shocked from the article hype....and when it comes from a pro player that knows the results as well as I do in this matter....it just says to me that someone wants it to be something special and nomore. If you're a player like me you can see right past that glitter I mentioned.
S.M.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
S.M.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
No problem give me the reports and I'll check them out. I've been waiting for those from you actually. If you didn't catch my post I would glace at them again. I have left comments that correctly place this deck as the false hope. Facts are listed with regards to the tourney outcomes.....you must have not read them....which is kind of taxing since we're going back and forth and you have no case. I on the other hand have given a solid one....asuming is not look good on this matter Doom...you're better then this..... once you read my post.
So when you get some time if you can share at least 5 first place winning reports {this would almost place it above rogue, I on the other hand if challenged do provide that kind of info to ensure my statements are sound} that would be wonderful;).....If not I have proven my point good member. If you're just wanting the last word you're going to get it if you come back without a report, some sort of case {A case isn't the assuming it's good because of an opinion on this matter}. I know when the situation is getting stale. I'm doing this for those that have interested and do not want to be mislead or we're right back to that glitter.
S.M.
Trade Thread
Modern
RWGBurnGWR
GUInfectUG
GRTronRG
UWGifts TronWU
URBGrixis DelverBRU
RGWZooWGR
Legacy
BUWTinFinsWUB
UROmniTellRU
BURTESRUB
GElves!G
GBPSIBG
RGBelcherGR
UBRGWDredgeWGRBU
UBAffinityBU
RBurnR
Vintage
UBGDoomsdayGBU
0Martello Shops0
GElves!G
UBTPSBU
UBelcherU
0Dredge0
....give me 2 then {give me a freaking case...you keep replying back without one!}, and now you're the one beating around the bush Doom!
Here's an example;
When I created the Noble`Goyf thread I provided some kind of proof that's a Top Tier competitive on paper badass deck worth the hype!
1
2
3
4
5
6
I will and can go all day, and I don't know why you won't provide a case Doom. This is nonsense because if asking for 5 1st place results is too much, then this deck is rogue, and any pro would confirm that fact. I'm not trying to highlight your lack of knowledge on this topic, but sadly you're forcing me to bring out the guns. I admire your will to fight!, but I don't know why you won't showcase that knowledge if you have it and or any with regards on this matter. Now this started out as my opinion, but as you can see it's far past that point. I'm showing and giving proof of WHY I feel this way. You're contesting it without a case, and without that case you're not coming off as an adult on the matter. I don't doubt your hunger for competitive drive, so this isn't a punt at you as a person. Now DOOM this isn't about you so again I'll ask give me the proof.....or please let this rest and I'll walk away if you can't give me anything or at least don't address me anymore on this thread! You best of all know I stay on topic, show the facts I have access to, and for that matter try my hardest to not be misleading.
In my opinion outside all this crap I've given you, this deck just seems like a mirage for a man dying of thirst stranded on a desert......1000 miles away from a single drop of water...anything liquid starts to look good after 3 days without it....even motor oil. Remember when this is all said and done I just asked you for one drop, and you gave me nothing after 3 replies.
S.M.
Also, was Tangle Wire ever tried out in here? The deck has a mana-disruption plan that shrinks your opponent's mana base, and Tangle Wire would be a nail in the coffin to let you swing through for a couple of turns with a Goyf to get some damage in.
My post have nothing to do as me as a personal person, so if you want to get intimate with me as a person I have a P.M. box. Anything more would not be on the topic, and if all will make you look foolish because my post are pretty darn clear....when read.
Now to the topic of the thread. My whole opinion was soley based on a deck that hasn't taken that top seed so to speak with any consistant outcomes {again a couple 3 place, and on ave random 6-8th place finishes when or if it makes the top can't speak any louder}.And for that matter expressed that a deck that can get into the top 8 but can't win the big for me isn't viable enough? Think about!
Now if you go back and reread my post I have several clear points that express and highlight these facts.
I will state again....no case has been shown to prove me otherwise {almost 5 troll replies have been made though} and a personal track record that shows I have had my share of Iowa victories from mason city, clinton, fort dodge and over to spencer wouldn't help you out here {not to mention a play group that does travel to the likes of cali/chicago ect}....finding something to express that's on topic might good member. To note as well this deck might be new to you as it appears but it's not, {something you might want to look into} and you can find some dated reports if you take the time to do the work as I've that date past 3 months.
Now go look at the threads I have created, check if I'm par with how I view things and that should be enough proof you're talking to someone that's competitive...otherwise I can't show you anymore then what your eyes what to see.
I think I've now said all I can without going into any more details since I'm the one who has clearly done the heavy lifting with all the net work to prove my case {would be nice if someone else did the same}. Otherwise this is a waste of time now with a high chance of a flame war.
I now rest my opinion {there's no need to have that war if I have the gun and others have a stick} and wish all that continue this thread have positive results.... the ones I haven't been able to find nor see.
Happy year folks;
S.M.
1) GW Beats is a viable contender because it demolishes Tezz.
2) GW Beats has potential, and is therefore worth working on to help it realize that potential.
For argument #1, it seems that S.M. would like concrete data that supports this conclusion, and it doesn't matter whether he/she is just a small-time Iowa player or not; tournament results would show how much of a contender the deck is in the current metagame. Based on tournament results, Noble Fish and BUG Fish would be better options if you wanted to play a Fish-type deck in this Tezz meta. I've looked at the past two months of tournament reports on TMD, and I've seen GW Beats decks in tournament fields, so it is played for sure; however, it has been outperformed by Noble and BUG Fish.
For argument #2, I think there is no doubt that the deck has potential. There are so many disruptive elements to this deck that cause headaches, starting with Null Rod, which is the cornerstone of any current anti-metagame deck. The problems with a deck like this are 1) if you don't get matched up against lots of Tezz-type decks, then it can be difficult to win a tournament, especially when you get into the loser's bracket no-man's land and get the second round fish/random.dec matchup. 2) Player perception: it seems too "fair" to be a "real" Vintage deck, so not a lot of players will choose to play this deck, giving it a much lower chance at putting up results.
It does share many elements with the successful "formula" for this type of deck; namely Null Rod and plenty of disruption, plus a decent clock, so it definitely has potential. The small amount of success it has had is enough for me personally to say that it has potential (but potential can be such a frustratingly subjective evaluation; I mean, how many times have cards been prematurely labeled "junk" and then turned out to be amazing?). Whether or not that potential is more fully realized is another argument altogether.
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On that note just because I have my personal opinion and yes facts that support it doesn't mean I can't be a positive member once the dust has settled.
Now I hope I can walk away with all the facts and listing I've posted {this goes out to members that are considering this deck that want to WIN not place} and give you other members that want to ride the wave out a deck list to work with.
The sole Tundra is for the Ancestral Recall/Time walk and nomore. I could be wrong but this is the highest place finish to date for this archtype....now this isn't something to feel totally comfortable with but it's a better version then the current one posted on the thread.
I'm out;
click on my name for old version S.M.
Click on This name for tourney report!
3. Nick Vallas
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Glissa Sunseeker
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Jotun Grunt
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Path to Exile
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Flooded Strand
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Strip Mine
1 Temple Garden
1 Tundra
3 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Guttural Response
1 Oxidize
2 Path to Exile
4 Ravenous Trap
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wispmare
The Vintage community seems slow to adopt new innovations and wants to see results before they fully embrace various cards as good. That is not to say that various innovators aren't willing to embrace new technologies such as Sharuum in Ichorid builds or Curfew to deal with Inkwell.
But look at the top decks, oftentimes these decks don't have any cards in them that have been printed in the past 5 years. Qasali Pridemage is very new, it's been in print only approximately a year - previous to that G/W only had Gaddock Teeg to show as it's spokesperson. I think people want to see that this archetype can beat more then Tezz before they fully embrace it - but remember that in a small tournament (under 32), there might be 8 Tezz decks while, GWbBeats might only be represented by 1 player. Tezz is going to do better most of the time until more people experiment with GWb.
There is a futher inclination, that many view this deck as metagame deck, trying to prey on the predominance of Tez/Vault/Key. Some are prejudiced, testing and acknowleding that it beats Tez, but that it's matchups are not great in other areas. But the reality might be that they are not familiar with all the in's and out's of the deck and that it has reasonable game versus a wider field.
Finally, this was originally suggested as GW Budget beats, and the idea that budget can compete but is generally outclassed by the brokeness and power of T1 is something that prejudices many players. People still think of it as a budget deck even though the later versions now do include more powerful cards.
Heck with all that said, I think there is more then 3-4 decks that are competitive in Vintage, I think that it's more like 9-12.
Even though they are both on color, make sure not to use seal or primordiums in this deck instead of the seal of cleansing. The ability to bin a tinker'd Sphinx of the Steel Wind makes the white version 20x better if there is no strain on the mana base.
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Anyway, in four rounds, my only trouble was with random.dec. Match one against Belcher was won on the weight of two first turn Gaddok Teegs. Interestingly, the one game of that match that I was on the draw, Belcher went off turn one and never gave me a chance to drop the Teeg!
I lost took match four against Oath, running a defensive build with Empyrial Archangel. Game one was no contest, with first turn seal of cleansing and second turn seal of primordium. Second game went to Oath, with me not being able to draw a single green mana source for about eight turns. Game three, I had to mulligan down to four, but eventually Tarriffed away the Angel with dual Shusher activation backup and then won with a topdecked Quasli Pridemage.
I dropped Round 2 (2-0) against a random all blue unpowered deck running Back to Basics and winning with Draining Whelk, but I am convinced that I blew it because I didn't play around his deck correctly. Pilot error.
Round 3 (2-1) was a black/white control/aggro deck with Nantuko Shades and heavy black discard. Again, pilot error cost this one. I was not paying attention and he demonic tutored through my midcensor.
So, yes, this deck has game. But for pilot error, it would have taken all comers I saw.
>>> UPDATE <<<
Or... maybe not.
I ran the deck again in a no-proxy tournament on Sunday. I tried to meta for generic aggro I expected to see, upping the creature removal, going GW only to make the mana base more resilient to wasteland, and including Icatian Javelineer to snipe down gro and fish style unpowered decks. While my expectations were correct, the deck pretty much failed on all fronts.
Match one was against The Rock or something similar. That deck did not care if I could stop artifacts, enchantments, countermagic, or small critters, and so the game was no contest. 0-2.
Match two was against a very interesting Selkie variant running a land toolbox with crop rotation, and Kudzu as the beater. I could keep the lid on for awhile in those games where I landed a javelineer to snipe down his creatures before they grew, but as soon as they got past 1/1 I had to hope to topdeck creature removal. Again, my disruption was basically worthless. 1-2.
Match three was the only one I won, against a GU fish deck running Lorescale as the primary win condition. Vexing Shushers were strong here, permitting me to push out creature removal for the Lorescales and weenie my way to victory. Even so, my artifact and enchantment disruption fell flat and the match was again just down to topdecking removal. 2-1.
Match four was against a RGw land destruction deck running Grim Lavamancers as removal and Greater Gargadon as win condition. Game one I got hosed by wastelands before I knew what I was playing. Game two and three I kept my mana base safe, and even kept him off of his own mana development with a nice Katari / Null Rod combo that stripped him of his artifact mana. Sadly, AGAIN, my deck's disruption pretty much missed the mark and the match went down to who topdecked more removal for the other side's creatures. 1-2.
The final match was against a pretty standard GU fish deck. This deck simply ramrodded me, but by this point I was not playing very well and probably kept hands I should have mulliganed away in favor of an early Vexing Shusher. 0-2.
I guess my conclusions are this. First off, I'm sure I made some errors of my own in piloting this deck, but none as severe as the silly ones from the first time I tried it. Also, the unpowered meta probably meant that this deck was a very poor choice. There were Staxx and Tezz players around, but the majority were just winning with creatures and this deck wasn't built to handle them. The fundemental problem with this deck is that, unless it has enemy artifacts, enchantments, and countermagic to hate on, it devolves into a deck full of grizzly bears.
Another interesting observation: two of the players who whupped GW Beatz were kind enough to play a second, casual match against a Suiblack deck I had with me. The Suiblack deck won handily in all of those matchups; I had not anticipated that it would be so good against fish-type decks. For the future, I will certainly bear in mind the lessons I learned here about paying attention to the meta!
(P.S. to the professional deck designer who suggested I put Abyssal Persecutors and Phyrexian Towers in my Suiblack deck: If I gave offense with my comment about the price of the card, it was unintended. You're correct, of course, and a deck including the cards you mentioned would likely be superior for most purposes to the deck as it exists. I do think we're on different ends of the design spectrum, that's all - I recognize that paying attention to card cost does basically cripple me by adding "more rules" to the metagame that other players don't have to respect. When my income substantially increases, perhaps I'll take your advice.)
That being said, I felt like I was lacking a bit of control without blue (hence my transition to fish). However, I feel that this is a very solid deck especially for those new to the format.
Type I:
:symu::symb::symr: Remora Control
Type 1.5
:symw::symu::symg: NO CounterTop
Type II:
Standard is AIDS
this deck could just hose everything right now...and being able to consistently screw fetch based mana and tutors on the first turn...ect would give this deck a huge edge. plus toss in ghost quarters and null rod, other decks just wont get mana period..
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ok card choices i might wanna play
Tarmogoyf
Gaddock Tegg
Noble Heirarch
Qasali Pridemage
Kataki War's Wage
Ethersworn Canonist
Leonin Arbiter
Aven Mindscensor
Samurai of the Pale Curtain
Utility spells
Swords to Plowshares
Natures Claim
Krosan Grip
Leyline of Sancitity
Tariff
Serentity
Now on the a very loose deck list, note this list does not have a black splash but i feel that it lacks consistency. Dark Confidant might give that
1x forest
1x strip mine
4x windswept heath
4x ghost quarter
3x horizon canopy
4x savanah
4x tarmogoyf
4x noble heirarch
4x qasali pridemage
3x kataki war's wage
4x ethersworn canonist
4x leonin arbiter
4x swords to plowshares
4x nature's claim
1x mox pearl
1x mox emerald
1x black lotus
4x leyline of sancitity
Now the meta i am talking about for those who do not play in the area is heavy shop decks, oath, dredge, and tez. There is always the randoms that i am not concerned with too much. now i know i am not playing wasteland, if i play the arbitor i like having 5 strip mines, if i dont 4x wastelands will be inserted. interested in any ideas, advice, or testing anyone else has had.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=532795