2R,:symtap:, Sac a land. Put a 3/3 colorless Golem enchantment artifact creature token onto the battlefield.
Basically Fervor with the ability to get creatures when you need them. I'm a fan. I also know a guy who wants to run a mono red deck who'll use this. Thoughts? Combos?
EDH: URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.) BMaralen of the MornsongB UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB Standard: UMono U DevotionU Casual: GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Sorry but I think it's unplayable. Fervor is unplayable.. Plus the card doesn't make sense. You're a red deck but you're running non-haste creatures (to take advantage of hammer effect) and then you're also running tons of land because you can burn some off for Trained Armodons..? What red deck plays a large volume of non-haste creatures over 3 CMC (after you play Hammer) and has lands left to play with? I just don't understand it. Sorry, it just seems bad to make. Theros's flavor and design has been in-freaking-credible for the most part but this one has me scratching my head.
It is probably better than I think, given I dislike it as a fervor due to the high red casting. I also dislike sacrificing land for a single dude, but it is a cleaner effect in terms of gameplay than animating them permanently.
Sorry but I think it's unplayable. Fervor is unplayable.. Plus the card doesn't make sense. You're a red deck but you're running non-haste creatures (to take advantage of hammer effect) and then you're also running tons of land because you can burn some off for Trained Armodons..? What red deck plays a large volume of non-haste creatures over 3 CMC (after you play Hammer) and has lands left to play with? I just don't understand it. Sorry, it just seems bad to make. Theros's flavor and design has been in-freaking-credible for the most part but this one has me scratching my head.
^Use it in a big G/R deck. Now your Kalonian Hydra has haste, and your extra lands have some use late game. All that's missing is some 2 cmc ramp.
Golem enchantment artifact creature token is the silliest thing up to now.
Oops, I forgot it was an Enchantment. I'll edit that.
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EDH: URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.) BMaralen of the MornsongB UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB Standard: UMono U DevotionU Casual: GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Sorry but I think it's unplayable. Fervor is unplayable.. Plus the card doesn't make sense. You're a red deck but you're running non-haste creatures (to take advantage of hammer effect) and then you're also running tons of land because you can burn some off for Trained Armodons..? What red deck plays a large volume of non-haste creatures over 3 CMC (after you play Hammer) and has lands left to play with? I just don't understand it. Sorry, it just seems bad to make. Theros's flavor and design has been in-freaking-credible for the most part but this one has me scratching my head.
I replied to you in the last thread but I'll repeat here since this is where the discussion should be anyway.
You are making a very common mistake looking at a cards two abilities and saying "neither one of these is that good". Remember options are good. Conversely, Vexing Devil which gave 2 "great" abilities was bad because it gave the two options to an opponent.
More importantly, you are missing the power of the card. Don't think of the haste as for the rest of the deck (though surely it'll help from time to time) but in conjunction with the instant speed 3/3s.
The easiest way for a red deck to lose is flooding out. This card ensures that all you draw is hasty gas, even if its a land. Sweeper coming up? No problem. Sorcery speed removal? Don't sweat it.
Now, granted, cards are impossible to adequately evaluate before a format starts. Hell, desecration demon was deemed powerful, then unplayable and now it's everywhere. I'm not betting my life that this is a staple but I will say it is flat out wrong to say this card's effect is not very, very powerful.
With some ramp and Stomping Ground, this could go bonkers like Fire of Yavimaya used to do. T1 Stomping Ground + Mana Elf. T2 This. T3 4cc beaters. Late game churn out Golems for the win. The fact that this is Legendary may hurt it a bit, but as a 3-of it's still not unreasonable.
I just don't think there's a place for a red deck that spends 6 mana and a land for a hasty 3/3 even if that can be repeated. If anything it's anti-control tech out of the sideboard and only a 1-of at that. Even then why would you bank on flooding out? Chandra helps you actually push through damage while going through cards. I could go on but I'll just go on record saying it's not good.
^I think many of you are mistaken if you think this card fits in RDW. That deck has plenty of hasters. Ideally, this card does best in a deck that can make use of the haste buff and has lots of lands to dump late game. And what other deck does that better than G/X Good Stuff?
Sorry but I think it's unplayable. Fervor is unplayable.. Plus the card doesn't make sense. You're a red deck but you're running non-haste creatures (to take advantage of hammer effect) and then you're also running tons of land because you can burn some off for Trained Armodons..? What red deck plays a large volume of non-haste creatures over 3 CMC (after you play Hammer) and has lands left to play with? I just don't understand it. Sorry, it just seems bad to make. Theros's flavor and design has been in-freaking-credible for the most part but this one has me scratching my head.
From a logic perspective:
1. Gameplay: There are different ways to build a red deck outside of Sligh. Heck, the current standard format has a "big" red deck doing its thing, and that runs 25 lands so it can casts large spells. This card fits into that strategy buy giving it a late game way to generate some sort of advantage when it floods out (it doesn't need more than 6 lands to opperate optimally, so sacking lands 7+ for Trained Armodons seems like a good plan.) Likewise, It's possible for a two color Red decks that "go big" to use this card profitably. And that's just with the 3/3 part. The haste can be relevent in giving some late game creatures an immedite impact on the board (Like Abhorent Overlord.)
I think some of you guys are seriously under-estimating this card.
It's certainly not something you want to curve out with.
It's a 1-2 of that you have as insurance against flooding out.
It's also very good as verdict insurance.
Deffinitely not a 4-of but it's a card that will drastically change the game when it's played at the right time. This will help push through damage and minimize flooding.
Scry is not enough to stop flooding, this garuntees that you won't flood and it gives you late game reach.
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I just don't think there's a place for a red deck that spends 6 mana and a land for a hasty 3/3 even if that can be repeated. If anything it's anti-control tech out of the sideboard and only a 1-of at that. Even then why would you bank on flooding out? Chandra helps you actually push through damage while going through cards. I could go on but I'll just go on record saying it's not good.
You should look back some time at old forum posts regarding things with repeatable effects. They are almost always worded like yours conjuring the worst possible scenario to describe them and they are very often wrong. The point is about incremental advantage, not thundermaw bombyness.
Yes, you are right. 6 mana and a sac'd land for a hasty 3/3 is bad. But against a deck where red is forced into an attrition game a REPEATABLE 3/3 with haste every turn can be very powerful.
Now statistically, if you said every single card was absolute crap and would never see tournament play, you'd actually be right more often than not. No one would congratulate you though because that is easy and it is likewise much harder to predict what WILL see play. I am not saying this will be a four-of in a deck, nor did I ever. I did say that this effect is very powerful. I honestly don't think you can really argue that point.
Big Red doesnt need something to grant your guys Haste. This will sit around until you have nothing better to do. The game could be over before that happens. I mean what do you take out for this effect? Take out creatures and rely more heavily on making expensive 3/3s? Take out removal or card advantage? I'd prefer to run an actual efficient threat. That's what a "good stuff" deck does--there aren't any "combos," each card pulls its weight on its own. Why is this better than other options at 3-4 mana? (And keep in mind we have much more to see in Theros.)
@ above - that's exactly what I'm arguing, isn't it? I'm saying it isn't strong enough to see much standard play. And I'm not the type of mTGS user to bash every card that gets spoiled, you'd know that if you've been around. I'm disappointed by the card because I like red and think this card will have wasted potential. We shall see..,
I kind of like this card, i see it in a land heavy rampish midrange deck to ensure that virtually everything that comes off the top of your deck is very live, you can also go pretty color dense(ex. 1GG, 1RR, and RR cards together in a 3-color deck) due to being able to have a high density of lands in your deck and still get value out of them, just play the cream and chuck the ones you don't need
Edit: The more I think about it the more i like it, this card has a lot of hidden potential, it doesn't hit the field with a thud, but it can really tie a deck together
All this does is preventing you from mana flood. And after yesterday's tournament with my red deck I'm really happy about that.
Magma Jet prevents mana flood. Chandra, Pyromaster prevents mana flood. The new dual lands are supposed to have some kind of card draw/filtering effect which would help prevent mana flood. There could be other playable Scry too.. I'd much much rather use those other cards.
100% if there's an RDW, this will be a 1-3 of, god I hope the red god is good It is AMAZING at (1) preventing you from flooding out (2) enabling your god (2 or 4 cc plz), and being fevor.
Magma Jet prevents mana flood. Chandra, Pyromaster prevents mana flood. The new dual lands are supposed to have some kind of card draw/filtering effect which would help prevent mana flood. There could be other playable Scry too.. I'd much much rather use those other cards.
Mid game when your flooded with land, you top deck Magma Jet and do 2 damage to something. Then Scry 2 to find 2 more land, that hammer is looking pretty nice being able to make 1-2 3/3 tokens per turn, that also have haste.
My point is I'm waiting for more spoiled cards before I decide if something is unplayable in a standard where there are 200 cards I haven't seen yet. I just want to look through these forums to see what people think of these cards without half of them saying its unplayable junk.
I don't see this as a mainboard card, personally. I think it comes in from the board against control for if/when you run out of gas. It'll do a damn fine job at giving you things to do post-Wrath effects.
The haste is not really a draw, though people are looking at the card the wrong way. You don't play ti for fervor, that is just a side bonus to the fact that it could make haste tokens instead but they added value.
In standard, turn one Crackler, followed by turn 2 guy like ash zealot or chain walker, followed by this, followed by turn 4 now hasty one drop and maybe a burning tree and then a land creature is pretty silly strong.
100% if there's an RDW, this will be a 1-3 of, god I hope the red god is good It is AMAZING at (1) preventing you from flooding out (2) enabling your god (2 or 4 cc plz), and being fevor.
This card is GOOD
Good, yes but not great. I don't think it will see play on it's own but yeah a 3 mana Fervor isn't too bad.
Creatures you control have Haste.
2R,:symtap:, Sac a land. Put a 3/3 colorless Golem enchantment artifact creature token onto the battlefield.
Basically Fervor with the ability to get creatures when you need them. I'm a fan. I also know a guy who wants to run a mono red deck who'll use this. Thoughts? Combos?
URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
Cubetutor Link
^Use it in a big G/R deck. Now your Kalonian Hydra has haste, and your extra lands have some use late game. All that's missing is some 2 cmc ramp.
Oops, I forgot it was an Enchantment. I'll edit that.
URJhoira of the GhituUR(Under con.)
BMaralen of the MornsongB
UBLazav, Dimir MastermindUB
Standard:
UMono U DevotionU
Casual:
GPrimordial Hydra JankinessG
my guess is that it runs along side chandra's phoenix in RDW probably, and anything else, I feel that this card might be a bit weak
I replied to you in the last thread but I'll repeat here since this is where the discussion should be anyway.
You are making a very common mistake looking at a cards two abilities and saying "neither one of these is that good". Remember options are good. Conversely, Vexing Devil which gave 2 "great" abilities was bad because it gave the two options to an opponent.
More importantly, you are missing the power of the card. Don't think of the haste as for the rest of the deck (though surely it'll help from time to time) but in conjunction with the instant speed 3/3s.
The easiest way for a red deck to lose is flooding out. This card ensures that all you draw is hasty gas, even if its a land. Sweeper coming up? No problem. Sorcery speed removal? Don't sweat it.
Now, granted, cards are impossible to adequately evaluate before a format starts. Hell, desecration demon was deemed powerful, then unplayable and now it's everywhere. I'm not betting my life that this is a staple but I will say it is flat out wrong to say this card's effect is not very, very powerful.
T1 One Drop
T2 Two Drop
T3 This thing.. do nothing, Go.
T4 Chandra, Pyromaster.. do nothing, Go.
N/A
Modern:
Grishoalbrand / Grixis Death's Shadow / Jeskai Control / UW Control
From a logic perspective:
1. Gameplay: There are different ways to build a red deck outside of Sligh. Heck, the current standard format has a "big" red deck doing its thing, and that runs 25 lands so it can casts large spells. This card fits into that strategy buy giving it a late game way to generate some sort of advantage when it floods out (it doesn't need more than 6 lands to opperate optimally, so sacking lands 7+ for Trained Armodons seems like a good plan.) Likewise, It's possible for a two color Red decks that "go big" to use this card profitably. And that's just with the 3/3 part. The haste can be relevent in giving some late game creatures an immedite impact on the board (Like Abhorent Overlord.)
2. Flavor: This card is a reference to Hephaestus' Automotons. Citations:
http://greekmythology.wikia.com/wiki/Automatons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton#Ancient_automata
So yes, it does make sense
It's certainly not something you want to curve out with.
It's a 1-2 of that you have as insurance against flooding out.
It's also very good as verdict insurance.
Deffinitely not a 4-of but it's a card that will drastically change the game when it's played at the right time. This will help push through damage and minimize flooding.
Scry is not enough to stop flooding, this garuntees that you won't flood and it gives you late game reach.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
You should look back some time at old forum posts regarding things with repeatable effects. They are almost always worded like yours conjuring the worst possible scenario to describe them and they are very often wrong. The point is about incremental advantage, not thundermaw bombyness.
Yes, you are right. 6 mana and a sac'd land for a hasty 3/3 is bad. But against a deck where red is forced into an attrition game a REPEATABLE 3/3 with haste every turn can be very powerful.
Now statistically, if you said every single card was absolute crap and would never see tournament play, you'd actually be right more often than not. No one would congratulate you though because that is easy and it is likewise much harder to predict what WILL see play. I am not saying this will be a four-of in a deck, nor did I ever. I did say that this effect is very powerful. I honestly don't think you can really argue that point.
@ above - that's exactly what I'm arguing, isn't it? I'm saying it isn't strong enough to see much standard play. And I'm not the type of mTGS user to bash every card that gets spoiled, you'd know that if you've been around. I'm disappointed by the card because I like red and think this card will have wasted potential. We shall see..,
Edit: The more I think about it the more i like it, this card has a lot of hidden potential, it doesn't hit the field with a thud, but it can really tie a deck together
Magma Jet prevents mana flood. Chandra, Pyromaster prevents mana flood. The new dual lands are supposed to have some kind of card draw/filtering effect which would help prevent mana flood. There could be other playable Scry too.. I'd much much rather use those other cards.
This card is GOOD
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Mid game when your flooded with land, you top deck Magma Jet and do 2 damage to something. Then Scry 2 to find 2 more land, that hammer is looking pretty nice being able to make 1-2 3/3 tokens per turn, that also have haste.
My point is I'm waiting for more spoiled cards before I decide if something is unplayable in a standard where there are 200 cards I haven't seen yet. I just want to look through these forums to see what people think of these cards without half of them saying its unplayable junk.
The haste is not really a draw, though people are looking at the card the wrong way. You don't play ti for fervor, that is just a side bonus to the fact that it could make haste tokens instead but they added value.
In standard, turn one Crackler, followed by turn 2 guy like ash zealot or chain walker, followed by this, followed by turn 4 now hasty one drop and maybe a burning tree and then a land creature is pretty silly strong.
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Good, yes but not great. I don't think it will see play on it's own but yeah a 3 mana Fervor isn't too bad.
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