we all know this card is real. we all know this card is absurdly powerful. so, a word of caution to everyone playing this.
1. Dont call an illegal creature type. That will nullify the effect and you'll be screwed, so make sure you call the right creature type upon playing this land
Numero 2 - KEEP TRACK IF THEY PLAY MULTIPLES WITH DIFFERENT CREATURE TYPES!!! Trust me, if i EVER see someone trying to cast a "Human" on a CoS that they called "Giants" on, i WILL counter it, and i WILL make them flip the table over, and i WONT let it be re-done. Keep track, and make sure to tell your opponent to keep track of that too. Dont let them lie to you, cause that is a form of cheating in this situation. If unsure...call a judge.
thats all i can think of as of right now...anybody have anything else to add?
5. Don't try to call someone out for naming "Titan" instead of "Giant" on their cavern, because all you'll accomplish is slapping yourself with rules lawyering when the judge rules around
1. Dont call an illegal creature type. That will nullify the effect and you'll be screwed, so make sure you call the right creature type upon playing this land
Thats not how it works. Naming an illegal creature type is just that -- illegal. It is just the same as casting Doom Blade on a black creature. It doesnt nullify the effect or get countered or whatever -- it is plain illegal. If your opponent names "titan" for his Cavern, you are obligated to tell him that "Titan" is not a creature type. If you don't, and later call a judge when your opponent complains about you countering his titan, I kind of don't see much hope for the judge ruling in your favor. You are responsible for your opponent playing correct magic, too; that includes naming a legal creature type - the judge would probably rule the land as having names Giants, because that was pretty clearly what your opponent intended to do and even what YOU understood what was happening, because if you knew he announced an illegal creature type, you would have mentioned it, right?
That is probably the worst thing I have read in a long, long while. Yeah, sure, just losing 2 cards, some life/mana as well a land drop seems perfectly reasonable to stop a borderline relevant ability on a land...
we all know this card is real. we all know this card is absurdly powerful. so, a word of caution to everyone playing this.
1. Dont call an illegal creature type. That will nullify the effect and you'll be screwed, so make sure you call the right creature type upon playing this land
Numero 2 - KEEP TRACK IF THEY PLAY MULTIPLES WITH DIFFERENT CREATURE TYPES!!! Trust me, if i EVER see someone trying to cast a "Human" on a CoS that they called "Giants" on, i WILL counter it, and i WILL make them flip the table over, and i WONT let it be re-done. Keep track, and make sure to tell your opponent to keep track of that too. Dont let them lie to you, cause that is a form of cheating in this situation. If unsure...call a judge.
thats all i can think of as of right now...anybody have anything else to add?
So what you're planning to do is get a lot of game losses for unsporting conduct? Good to know.
What the *correct* thing to do in that situation is is to ensure at all stages everyone is clear which is which.
we all know this card is real. we all know this card is absurdly powerful. so, a word of caution to everyone playing this.
1. Dont call an illegal creature type. That will nullify the effect and you'll be screwed, so make sure you call the right creature type upon playing this land
Numero 2 - KEEP TRACK IF THEY PLAY MULTIPLES WITH DIFFERENT CREATURE TYPES!!! Trust me, if i EVER see someone trying to cast a "Human" on a CoS that they called "Giants" on, i WILL counter it, and i WILL make them flip the table over, and i WONT let it be re-done. Keep track, and make sure to tell your opponent to keep track of that too. Dont let them lie to you, cause that is a form of cheating in this situation. If unsure...call a judge.
thats all i can think of as of right now...anybody have anything else to add?
and then I will laugh cause you can't counter it. RTFC dude. that mana can ONLY be used on that creature type, which means if they tap it for G cause they named Giants, and try to cast a human - you call a judge because that card cant be cast with that specific CoS. doesn't mean it hits the stack and is counterable.
and then I will laugh cause you can't counter it. RTFC dude. that mana can ONLY be used on that creature type, which means if they tap it for G cause they named Giants, and try to cast a human - you call a judge because that card cant be cast with that specific CoS. doesn't mean it hits the stack and is counterable.
Be creative. I would assume they tapped the land for colorless if they did not specify.
and then I will laugh cause you can't counter it. RTFC dude. that mana can ONLY be used on that creature type, which means if they tap it for G cause they named Giants, and try to cast a human - you call a judge because that card cant be cast with that specific CoS. doesn't mean it hits the stack and is counterable.
I know a lot of people don't specify what color they are tapping lands for. As long as he has the 2 swamps tapped to pay for his Grave Titan and taps this land as well that means that it would still hit the stack, and still be counterable. I guarantee that a lot of people will read this card as simply being if you use this land to cast a creature spell that creature is uncounterable.
Red should be burn, Goblins, Dragons, draw/discard, and Standard-unplayable 5CMC cards with insane, lengthy effects that take 10 minutes to figure out what they do and another 20 to actually make their effects work on the field.
In this perspective, I will not grant people the option to turn it back. This is ofcourse when we are talking (pre-)releases and tournaments, not casual games.
Pre-release and release are REL pretty casual, it's not like you're playing in a PTQ. If you're playing against a newer player, show some good sportsmanship instead of being a rules lawyer.
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Be creative. I would assume they tapped the land for colorless if they did not specify.
yeah but sometime you have to assume they are using it for colored mana like if they summon geralfs messenger with a cavern they kinda had to have used the uncounterable ability
I know a lot of people don't specify what color they are tapping lands for. As long as he has the 2 swamps tapped to pay for his Grave Titan and taps this land as well that means that it would still hit the stack, and still be counterable. I guarantee that a lot of people will read this card as simply being if you use this land to cast a creature spell that creature is uncounterable.
If you're suggesting that if an opponent taps Cavern of Souls to pay for a Grave Titan without specifying they are using the second ability the spell is still counterable, I think you'll be surprised when a judge comes around. The intent is obvious and he also didn't specify he was tapping for colorless either.
3.6. Game Play Error — Game Rule Violation (Penalty: Warning) Definition
This infraction covers the majority of game situations in which a player makes an error or fails to follow a game procedure correctly. It handles violations of the Comprehensive Rules that are not covered by the other Game Play Errors.
...
Additional Remedy
If the error was discovered within a time frame in which a player could reasonably be expected to notice the error and the situation is simple enough to safely back up without too much disruption to the course of the game, the judge may get permission from the Head Judge to back up the game to the point of the error. Each action taken is undone until the game reaches the point immediately prior to the error. Cards incorrectly placed in hand are returned to the location in the zone from which they were moved (if the identity of the incorrectly drawn card is not known to all players, a random card is returned instead). Once the game is backed up, it continues from that point.
If not caught within a reasonable time frame, or backing up is impossible or sufficiently complex that it could affect the course of the game, the judge should leave the game state as it is after applying state-based actions and not attempt any form of partial ‘fix’ – either reverse all actions or none, with the following exceptions:
• If a player made an illegal choice or failed to make a required choice for a permanent on the battlefield, that player makes a legal choice.
...
If a player names an invalid creature type (e.g. Titan), he'll get a chance to correct it. Cavern of Souls is never 'wasted'.
If a player taps five Swamps and Cavern of Souls to cast a Grave Titan, without specifying which of the Cavern's abilities he is using, I believe this falls under "fails to follow a game procedure correctly". The ambiguity, if relevant, is immediately discovered as an opponent attempts to counter the spell, it's a simple matter of rewinding the game state to before Cavern of Souls was tapped for mana (i.e. "the point immediately prior to the error"). This is similar to a player casting Boros Fury-Shield by tapping two Plains and a Sacred Foundry, without specifying color of mana. (Disclaimer: This is my personal interpretation of the IPG and is NOT an Official Answer. Consult your local judge for more advice.)
Seriously, people, what happened to good sportsmanship?
The scenario was they have two Caverns naming different types.
If they try to cast Geralf's Messenger and they tap the Cavern naming "Giant", then that is an illegal play and you need to point that out. If they have already mistapped the Cavern naming "Zombie" for another spell this turn (and they could legally have used the Cavern naming "Zombie" for that spell) and they do not have any other black sources, then they can't cast the Messenger this turn.
If they cast Diregraf Captain and they tap a Swamp a Drowned Catacomb and the Cavern naming "Giant", then that is a legal play and the Captain can be countered.
If they cast Grave Titan and they tap the Cavern naming "Giant", then it is assumed that they used the second ability of Cavern and thus the Titan can't be countered. If they mistap though and tap at least two black sources and the Cavern naming "Zombie" but not the cavern naming "Giant", then that is a legal play and the Titan can be countered.
If a player plays multiple copies of Cavern of Souls naming different types, you should try to pay attention to which Cavern is which. Even if you are not playing counters, if they have tapped their other lands badly this turn you could still catch them trying to use the wrong one to try to cast something really color intensive like Geralf's Messenger and you could buy yourself an extra turn.
I fail to see how you need to keep it clear which cavern is which at all times. If you use one for a certain creature type, it's obvious which one is left. If someone goes to Stone Rain you, you say I want to destroy the one naming Whatever.
Pre-release and release are REL pretty casual, it's not like you're playing in a PTQ. If you're playing against a newer player, show some good sportsmanship instead of being a rules lawyer.
If a new player makes mistakes in rules you are 100% justified in correcting them. They will not learn if you do show them the mistake and let the consequences happen. If you correct their mistake for them and allow that line of play to happen the way they wanted to they learned NOTHING. They will just shake their heads and move on to their next play.
Unless they had some negative impact it will not be stored in their memories. I like improving the new players at my store so I have more competition in tournaments and a much better experience than walking in and noobstomping every weekend.
Titan vs Giant is one thing, but I'm supposed to know every legal creature type (including errata) in the game so I can point out when my opponent names an illegal one? In a competitive REL at least, a player ought to know his own deck.
What would be the legality of having custom 'counters' to keep track of this?
If you want to put a little counter with the word "Human" or "Giant" on your Cavern of Souls that you named "Human" or "Giant" for, that would be allowed, yes. In fact, I'm pretty sure most judges would be very happy that you are going to extra trouble to make sure the game state is clear to everyone.
I fail to see how you need to keep it clear which cavern is which at all times. If you use one for a certain creature type, it's obvious which one is left. If someone goes to Stone Rain you, you say I want to destroy the one naming Whatever.
The Caverns need to be differentiated because they have different abilities.
It is on the person that is using the Cavern to make sure that the if they are naming different creature types the opponent knows which is which.
@Matunos
Most players will be able to name the right creature type, the fact remains that it is not your job to know every legal creature type. Your job is to call a judge when you believe an illegal creature type may have been named.
In an extremely high REL if he names a legal creature type but you think its illegal the land will be activated for that type even if you call over a judge.
Even at a extremely high REL your opponent can not play caverns and name an illegal creature type, it's like if I accidentally try to cast Grave Titan with 5 lands and then you call me out on it.
I fail to see how you need to keep it clear which cavern is which at all times. If you use one for a certain creature type, it's obvious which one is left. If someone goes to Stone Rain you, you say I want to destroy the one naming Whatever.
Ah, but imagine this:
Cavern naming Dragons
Cavern naming Devils
Cast Hellrider tapping a cavern. Obviously, it must be the Devil Cavern, so opponent doesnt counter it.
Cast Scorching Devil right after tapping the other Cavern. Opponent tries to counter it, and then the other player says it fizzles because he used the Dragon Cavern for the Hellrider.
Assuming you're playing against no one, yea. If you're playing against an actual opponent, losing a land and a card in your hand to stop a card that really has very little effect on the board state is not a good trade at all.
Memoricide naming Primeval Titan does gain a lot of viability though, assuming you're on the play.
yeah a lot of people dont realize but i think there is a new rule that stated basically you dont have to babysit anymore. meaning, in the terms of, if they dont add a counter to something, your not longer obligated to tell them about it.
1. Dont call an illegal creature type. That will nullify the effect and you'll be screwed, so make sure you call the right creature type upon playing this land
Numero 2 - KEEP TRACK IF THEY PLAY MULTIPLES WITH DIFFERENT CREATURE TYPES!!! Trust me, if i EVER see someone trying to cast a "Human" on a CoS that they called "Giants" on, i WILL counter it, and i WILL make them flip the table over, and i WONT let it be re-done. Keep track, and make sure to tell your opponent to keep track of that too. Dont let them lie to you, cause that is a form of cheating in this situation. If unsure...call a judge.
thats all i can think of as of right now...anybody have anything else to add?
2. Don't think countermagic will simply cease to exist as soon as this card is legal. Design your deck accordingly.
3. DO buy this card off me for it's ridiculously high pre-order price. I could use the cash.
4. Don't think this suddenly makes your legacy goblins deck tier 1. If you do, I will enjoy taking your money from you at the next Legacy Open.
i literally laughed out loud...and woke my g/f up lol. i needed that. but yeah, good points
Finally someone with a brain, a welcome relief amongst the empty chatter that went around this week
Give irony and sarcasm, when ignorance and stupidity is found.
The whip is kept for special occasions
In fact, Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction seems rock solid.
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Thats not how it works. Naming an illegal creature type is just that -- illegal. It is just the same as casting Doom Blade on a black creature. It doesnt nullify the effect or get countered or whatever -- it is plain illegal. If your opponent names "titan" for his Cavern, you are obligated to tell him that "Titan" is not a creature type. If you don't, and later call a judge when your opponent complains about you countering his titan, I kind of don't see much hope for the judge ruling in your favor. You are responsible for your opponent playing correct magic, too; that includes naming a legal creature type - the judge would probably rule the land as having names Giants, because that was pretty clearly what your opponent intended to do and even what YOU understood what was happening, because if you knew he announced an illegal creature type, you would have mentioned it, right?
That is probably the worst thing I have read in a long, long while. Yeah, sure, just losing 2 cards, some life/mana as well a land drop seems perfectly reasonable to stop a borderline relevant ability on a land...
So what you're planning to do is get a lot of game losses for unsporting conduct? Good to know.
What the *correct* thing to do in that situation is is to ensure at all stages everyone is clear which is which.
and then I will laugh cause you can't counter it. RTFC dude. that mana can ONLY be used on that creature type, which means if they tap it for G cause they named Giants, and try to cast a human - you call a judge because that card cant be cast with that specific CoS. doesn't mean it hits the stack and is counterable.
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Be creative. I would assume they tapped the land for colorless if they did not specify.
I know a lot of people don't specify what color they are tapping lands for. As long as he has the 2 swamps tapped to pay for his Grave Titan and taps this land as well that means that it would still hit the stack, and still be counterable. I guarantee that a lot of people will read this card as simply being if you use this land to cast a creature spell that creature is uncounterable.
Pre-release and release are REL pretty casual, it's not like you're playing in a PTQ. If you're playing against a newer player, show some good sportsmanship instead of being a rules lawyer.
yeah but sometime you have to assume they are using it for colored mana like if they summon geralfs messenger with a cavern they kinda had to have used the uncounterable ability
If you're suggesting that if an opponent taps Cavern of Souls to pay for a Grave Titan without specifying they are using the second ability the spell is still counterable, I think you'll be surprised when a judge comes around. The intent is obvious and he also didn't specify he was tapping for colorless either.
:EDH:
WR Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (HOLD/100) WR
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion (HOLD/100) WB
If a player names an invalid creature type (e.g. Titan), he'll get a chance to correct it. Cavern of Souls is never 'wasted'.
If a player taps five Swamps and Cavern of Souls to cast a Grave Titan, without specifying which of the Cavern's abilities he is using, I believe this falls under "fails to follow a game procedure correctly". The ambiguity, if relevant, is immediately discovered as an opponent attempts to counter the spell, it's a simple matter of rewinding the game state to before Cavern of Souls was tapped for mana (i.e. "the point immediately prior to the error"). This is similar to a player casting Boros Fury-Shield by tapping two Plains and a Sacred Foundry, without specifying color of mana. (Disclaimer: This is my personal interpretation of the IPG and is NOT an Official Answer. Consult your local judge for more advice.)
Seriously, people, what happened to good sportsmanship?
Standard | [under construction]
If they try to cast Geralf's Messenger and they tap the Cavern naming "Giant", then that is an illegal play and you need to point that out. If they have already mistapped the Cavern naming "Zombie" for another spell this turn (and they could legally have used the Cavern naming "Zombie" for that spell) and they do not have any other black sources, then they can't cast the Messenger this turn.
If they cast Diregraf Captain and they tap a Swamp a Drowned Catacomb and the Cavern naming "Giant", then that is a legal play and the Captain can be countered.
If they cast Grave Titan and they tap the Cavern naming "Giant", then it is assumed that they used the second ability of Cavern and thus the Titan can't be countered. If they mistap though and tap at least two black sources and the Cavern naming "Zombie" but not the cavern naming "Giant", then that is a legal play and the Titan can be countered.
If a player plays multiple copies of Cavern of Souls naming different types, you should try to pay attention to which Cavern is which. Even if you are not playing counters, if they have tapped their other lands badly this turn you could still catch them trying to use the wrong one to try to cast something really color intensive like Geralf's Messenger and you could buy yourself an extra turn.
If a new player makes mistakes in rules you are 100% justified in correcting them. They will not learn if you do show them the mistake and let the consequences happen. If you correct their mistake for them and allow that line of play to happen the way they wanted to they learned NOTHING. They will just shake their heads and move on to their next play.
Unless they had some negative impact it will not be stored in their memories. I like improving the new players at my store so I have more competition in tournaments and a much better experience than walking in and noobstomping every weekend.
Does that expectation exist for Engineered Plague?
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The Caverns need to be differentiated because they have different abilities.
It is on the person that is using the Cavern to make sure that the if they are naming different creature types the opponent knows which is which.
@Matunos
Most players will be able to name the right creature type, the fact remains that it is not your job to know every legal creature type. Your job is to call a judge when you believe an illegal creature type may have been named.
In an extremely high REL if he names a legal creature type but you think its illegal the land will be activated for that type even if you call over a judge.
Even at a extremely high REL your opponent can not play caverns and name an illegal creature type, it's like if I accidentally try to cast Grave Titan with 5 lands and then you call me out on it.
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Ah, but imagine this:
Cavern naming Dragons
Cavern naming Devils
Cast Hellrider tapping a cavern. Obviously, it must be the Devil Cavern, so opponent doesnt counter it.
Cast Scorching Devil right after tapping the other Cavern. Opponent tries to counter it, and then the other player says it fizzles because he used the Dragon Cavern for the Hellrider.
Assuming you're playing against no one, yea. If you're playing against an actual opponent, losing a land and a card in your hand to stop a card that really has very little effect on the board state is not a good trade at all.
Memoricide naming Primeval Titan does gain a lot of viability though, assuming you're on the play.
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