So, i want to make a deck that focuses around multiplayer politics in a game with 3+ people. Obviously the deck has to have some early protection to keep the enemies from ganging up on ya, so how about stuff like Ghostly Prison. Going to want to also control the board and what people play, so lets toss in maybe stuff like Kataki, War's Wage, Magus of the Tabernacle, Rhystic Study, and any of the spiketail creatures(Spiketail HatchlingSpiketail DrakelingSpiketail Drake to have a threat going on...
Lets also have some In the Eye of Chaos to keep them down, absolutely stops you taking damage along with ghostly prison (Not absolutely, but it helps :P) I'm thinking having 4 Cursecatcher is an automatic include..
Also going to want 4 Divert since its cheap and In the eye of chaos doesnt hurt it that much. Was also wondering about Soul Barrier, as its very similar to Ghostly Prison, however it is much more a threat than maybe we want? You tell me.
If its wanted to be really confusing and mean toss in Naked Singularity? Delaying Shield looks nice. Redirect is always a card i have wanted to work into a deck..
What do all of you guys/gals think? Could add red to the mix for the like of Scrambleverse etc.... Opinions wanted
I like a lot of the ideas that you've presented, but I think you need to keep your focus on multiplayer-specific cards. Spiketail/Cursecatcher effects simply aren't very powerful when lots of players are involved. They're also very easy to play around, which makes the effect fairly trivial.
What I really like is the sound of a powerful U/W Control deck. Mystic Remora (read the Oracle text, not the printed text) and Rhystic Study would be your draw engine. Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Norn's Annex, Windborn Muse and Magus of the Tabernacle could all be your taxing effects. I don't like Kataki unless your meta is especially artifact-heavy. It just feels too situational otherwise. Another combo that I really like is is Island Santuary and Mystic Decree. Some decks are drawing dead to that lock. The best part is that it only stops creatures from attacking YOU. People can still bash each other to bits.
What you really need to think about is how you're going to win the game. A personal favorite of mine is Luminarch Ascension. It's super easy to trigger in a defensive deck in a multiplayer setting, and is typically very hard to remove. Maybe your meta plays a ton of enchantment removal, but not many do, so I'm just assuming that it's fairly fail-safe. Converting 2 mana into a 4/4 flier is... very, very strong lol. Another card that comes to mind is Eternal Dragon. It just keeps coming back for more, that's all there is to it really. Goblin Charbelcher isn't bad either, but typically need something like Endless Horizons or Land Tax to make it truly amazing. That or Mana Severance anyways.
I also agree about the spiketails not being as good in multiplayer, although it makes sense with the other tax cards. If you want some really interesting political cards that are a lot of fun with big groups, check out the advocates: Pulsemage Advocate, Shieldmage Advocate, Spurnmage Advocate
I also agree about the spiketails not being as good in multiplayer, although it makes sense with the other tax cards.
I disagree. The problem is that players can choose to not attack with a creature or two for a turn and continue to play their spells as per normal. People who are trying to stay defensive probably aren't attacking anyone anyways, and so the Spiketails may as well be complete blanks. Again, it's not like it's hard to play around cards such as these. While the tax on tax strategy sounds cool in theory, I don't think that it would be very strong in practice. What would add up is loading up on Ghostly Prison effects. Having 2-3 in play would make attacking you all but impossible. Throw Copy Enchantment into the mix and things can really get out of hand. I like these "hard" taxes that are constantly around and that affect every creature. I'm not a fan of small-ball cards like the Spiketails that don't really figure to do much of anything.
Soul Snare causes an effect similar to Ghostly Prison. It strongly encourages your opponents to attack each other rather than you. It's a crazy good card, it's also white removal, and it's a 1 drop.
It's fun to see how people think cards like Ghostly Prison and Propaganda will be protecting them against team-ups against them. I mean, yes that's what the card reads, but I don't know, every time I play a game when a player casts this, he automatically gets ganged up against. All direct damage to his head, all discard to his head, Sphinx of the Steel Wind on him (yes I´ll pay 2 because we play the Urza lands, or Tolarian Academy, or whatever ramp we have in our multiplayer games), first enchantment removal towards Ghostly Prison/Propaganda instead of the dude having things like Attrition, Rhystic Study, Ascetism, Grave Pact on the board (which should be far more dangerous). To me these cards - in multiplayer - feels a lot more provocative than diplomatic
I agree with you about some cards, like Grave Pact but Souls of the Faultless is very susceptible to removal. If you are playing against a player who has 2 Prisons out (i.e. not commander rules) that player won't be getting hit frequently, it's just too expensive.
Well, people generally assume creatures are a lot more easy to remove, and there is truth in it, but in my meta artifact and enchantment hate are common bread, so there is no permanent type more protected than another, lands aside maybe (since LD is kind of banned apart maybe from spot removal on things like Urborg or Academy).
I wouldn't assume that just because Prison effects don't work in your meta doesn't mean they can't work in others. You play in meta where everyone runs heavy enchantment removal and land destruction is banned. That's not something that I've commonly heard. White/Blue decks can easily field cards such as Leyline of Sanctity to avoid burn/discard, and can also play cards such as Balance, Limited Resources or even Armageddon to prevent people from paying the 2 to attack you. The situations that you've described are entirely avoidable, you just have to build your decks with your own meta in mind. Still, if you then go on to ban part of the strategy that makes your deck viable, then of course it won't seem nearly as powerful in practice.
In addition, walls aren't exactly the be-all-end-all either. If someone Splinter Twins a Pestermite, what good is a wall going to do? What if you get swarmed by saprolings? While walls can be fine is metas where people play small numbers of big creatures, they're very bad against swarmy decks. Prison effects are not only decent against fair decks, but they're also very powerful against unfair decks.
Alright everyone, thanks alot for all the suggestions here. I woke up and checked to see this many posts(very surprising) but i'm heading off to work. I will edit this post later with a hashed up decklist and address some points that were given here
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Nah, we don't really ban land destruction (we run Armaggedon, Balance, Sundering Titan and the likes) but we ban StoneRain.deck and 4Strip4Wastes.deck.
I agree with you about how relevant the meta is. Like you are saying, if you backup your prisons with Leyline and mana disruption then sure, it's great defense. Maybe we forgot to mention about Maze of Ith, which is also a very nice card against anything big.
I'm a huge fan of both Maze of Ith and Mystifying Maze. That being said, I'm also not opposed to running 4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in my decks lol (or even just a bunch of Expedition Maps). I love spell lands, and I always do my best to cram as many of them into my decks as possible.
I think you misunderstood me because I agree they're not great choices, and what I meant by "it makes sense" is that I see where he is coming from by tryin to pile up the tax effects, but ya, probly not that effective in multiplayer. Unless maybe you have some kind of recursion engine for them, and even then, hmm...
EDIT: Well, me being an idiot, just realized the only advocate that couldnt work in this deck would be Pulsemage Advocate, so the rest look nice. Currently i am fiddling around with a few ideas, and tomorrow i am going to be tossing out some deck ideas on here for critique and i also just saw the Karmic Justice that you laid out, and that looks REALLY nice, as well as the parallex cards
Lets also have some In the Eye of Chaos to keep them down, absolutely stops you taking damage along with ghostly prison (Not absolutely, but it helps :P) I'm thinking having 4 Cursecatcher is an automatic include..
Also going to want 4 Divert since its cheap and In the eye of chaos doesnt hurt it that much. Was also wondering about Soul Barrier, as its very similar to Ghostly Prison, however it is much more a threat than maybe we want? You tell me.
If its wanted to be really confusing and mean toss in Naked Singularity? Delaying Shield looks nice. Redirect is always a card i have wanted to work into a deck..
What do all of you guys/gals think? Could add red to the mix for the like of Scrambleverse etc.... Opinions wanted
Sig and Avvie by DarkNightCavalier at heroes of the Plane studios!
What I really like is the sound of a powerful U/W Control deck. Mystic Remora (read the Oracle text, not the printed text) and Rhystic Study would be your draw engine. Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Norn's Annex, Windborn Muse and Magus of the Tabernacle could all be your taxing effects. I don't like Kataki unless your meta is especially artifact-heavy. It just feels too situational otherwise. Another combo that I really like is is Island Santuary and Mystic Decree. Some decks are drawing dead to that lock. The best part is that it only stops creatures from attacking YOU. People can still bash each other to bits.
What you really need to think about is how you're going to win the game. A personal favorite of mine is Luminarch Ascension. It's super easy to trigger in a defensive deck in a multiplayer setting, and is typically very hard to remove. Maybe your meta plays a ton of enchantment removal, but not many do, so I'm just assuming that it's fairly fail-safe. Converting 2 mana into a 4/4 flier is... very, very strong lol. Another card that comes to mind is Eternal Dragon. It just keeps coming back for more, that's all there is to it really. Goblin Charbelcher isn't bad either, but typically need something like Endless Horizons or Land Tax to make it truly amazing. That or Mana Severance anyways.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
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I disagree. The problem is that players can choose to not attack with a creature or two for a turn and continue to play their spells as per normal. People who are trying to stay defensive probably aren't attacking anyone anyways, and so the Spiketails may as well be complete blanks. Again, it's not like it's hard to play around cards such as these. While the tax on tax strategy sounds cool in theory, I don't think that it would be very strong in practice. What would add up is loading up on Ghostly Prison effects. Having 2-3 in play would make attacking you all but impossible. Throw Copy Enchantment into the mix and things can really get out of hand. I like these "hard" taxes that are constantly around and that affect every creature. I'm not a fan of small-ball cards like the Spiketails that don't really figure to do much of anything.
I also figure that it's worthwhile to give a shoutout to Balance. Pairing it with Zuran Orb is amazing, but even Karoos, Azorius Chancerys, and Fieldmist Borderposts can go a long way to nuking your land count.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
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GWUB 4C Gifts Control
Commander:
GWU Derevi
BGW Ghave
BUG Muldrotha
Tiny Leaders:
BGW Doran
BGU Leovold
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I agree with you about some cards, like Grave Pact but Souls of the Faultless is very susceptible to removal. If you are playing against a player who has 2 Prisons out (i.e. not commander rules) that player won't be getting hit frequently, it's just too expensive.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I wouldn't assume that just because Prison effects don't work in your meta doesn't mean they can't work in others. You play in meta where everyone runs heavy enchantment removal and land destruction is banned. That's not something that I've commonly heard. White/Blue decks can easily field cards such as Leyline of Sanctity to avoid burn/discard, and can also play cards such as Balance, Limited Resources or even Armageddon to prevent people from paying the 2 to attack you. The situations that you've described are entirely avoidable, you just have to build your decks with your own meta in mind. Still, if you then go on to ban part of the strategy that makes your deck viable, then of course it won't seem nearly as powerful in practice.
In addition, walls aren't exactly the be-all-end-all either. If someone Splinter Twins a Pestermite, what good is a wall going to do? What if you get swarmed by saprolings? While walls can be fine is metas where people play small numbers of big creatures, they're very bad against swarmy decks. Prison effects are not only decent against fair decks, but they're also very powerful against unfair decks.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Sig and Avvie by DarkNightCavalier at heroes of the Plane studios!
I saw someone play a deck like that once... Chaos as everyone tried to empty their hand to take each others cards trolltastic.
if you happen to work out a way to make scrambleverse work I'd like to hear it... I have a foil one I don't know what to do with.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
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I'm a huge fan of both Maze of Ith and Mystifying Maze. That being said, I'm also not opposed to running 4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in my decks lol (or even just a bunch of Expedition Maps). I love spell lands, and I always do my best to cram as many of them into my decks as possible.
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
I think you misunderstood me because I agree they're not great choices, and what I meant by "it makes sense" is that I see where he is coming from by tryin to pile up the tax effects, but ya, probly not that effective in multiplayer. Unless maybe you have some kind of recursion engine for them, and even then, hmm...
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I still really like the Redirect and Divert idea, because i think it would be fun in multiplayer. Just redirecting an ultimatum would be fun.
However, i do understand that a UW multiplayer control deck sounds a lot more... Mischievous and entertaining. So, lets break it down:
Tax cards: Ghostly Prison, Rhystic Study, Magus of the Tabernacle, In the Eye of Chaos.
Restriction cards:Island Sanctuary+Mystic Decree looks like a combo i REALLY want to make use of. Balance, Leyline of Sanctity
Cards that look good: Leyline of Anticipation. Also, Pulsemage Advocate, Spurnmage Advocate, and Shieldmage Advocate are all very nice cards, but i dont think many creatures would be ran in the deck. Speaking of such, Eternal Dragon Sounds like something i want
Other cards that look good: Luminarch Ascension,Redirect, and Divert(Yes i would really like to use them)....
With all that in mind, what have we got guys?
EDIT: Well, me being an idiot, just realized the only advocate that couldnt work in this deck would be Pulsemage Advocate, so the rest look nice. Currently i am fiddling around with a few ideas, and tomorrow i am going to be tossing out some deck ideas on here for critique and i also just saw the Karmic Justice that you laid out, and that looks REALLY nice, as well as the parallex cards
Sig and Avvie by DarkNightCavalier at heroes of the Plane studios!