This might as well be an Examiner or Huffpo piece. Take it with the appropriately sized grain of salt.
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I always thought Farscape was about Phillip Fry finding himself on a spaceship with Delenn, Ivanova, Worf, and an unholy cross between ALF and Zachary Smith.
To illustrate the loss of consumer or player confidence in Magic Online, the average cost of each digital card has dropped 11.1% of its overall value. Another way to understand this number is that the average consumer trusts Wizards of the Coast 11.1% less, and that is why the overall value of collections have tanked in equal measure.
Ah, so if a stock loses 11% of its value, that means that investors have lost exactly 11% of their confidence. Wow, so much happened in the College of Business that I missed out on. No wonder this expert now writes for Forbes! Hilarious.
I agree that his over-simplicaton is a bit much, however his point is pretty clear to those who are interested in reading: MODO is losing interest.
The MOCS crashing every year is a really ridiculous. As a guy who beta tested the V3 UI back in 2005, I can definitely say that WotC does not listen to anyone. Every bit of feedback posted from testers criticized the User Interface, wasted space, and terrible side-bar system... and that was just the UI. Heavy complaints about the actual game play were also offered stating that the newer version offered no increased efficiency in game play.
What did they do? "Well, we're so far along that we'll just stick with what we have. Thanks guys"
WTF??? Why even do a beta if you're just going to roll out the software anyways? Garbage in, garbage out.
That article is making it clear that MODO needs change. 10% loss in value is significant. Very significant.
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"In response to your Brainstorm, I use Vedalken Orrery to play Chains of Mephistopheles as an instant."
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Perhaps those berating the writer should consider that the point of the article is still valid and discuss that since it's the real issue: MTGO is facing a loss of interest and that's bad for those invested in MTGO.
Personally I've refused to invest heavily into MTGO since the beginning, because all gaming software has a finite life span which depends on too many variables. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the sky is falling or that MTGO is going to die any time soon - but, if it keeps on the path it's been on since it's inception, then it's only going to decline over time.
Perhaps those berating the writer should consider that the point of the article is still valid and discuss that since it's the real issue: MTGO is facing a loss of interest and that's bad for those invested in MTGO.
Personally I've refused to invest heavily into MTGO since the beginning, because all gaming software has a finite life span which depends on too many variables. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the sky is falling or that MTGO is going to die any time soon - but, if it keeps on the path it's been on since it's inception, then it's only going to decline over time.
Very true. It's not dying today or tomorrow, or even the day after that... but it's losing customers and the value of their digital products are going down.
My experience alone is that I invested heavily after the hurricane Katrina (no other place to play) but could not get over the buggy, resource craving UI they pushed out... I stopped playing. I picked up a few packs of Masters Ed 1 and collected Force of Wills and Mana Drains for myself, then stopped. I expected a crazy rate of return... FoW peaked, then dropped. Drains never did well. Bazaar and Workshops are $20. It's so easy to get into this format, but why aren't people?
Again, my experience comes from those around me: my roommate has drafted over 200 tickets worth of Theros... he has lost 90% of his games because the "shuffler" has given him 8+ lands in row EVERY GAME. I witnessed every time this happened. It's alarming and representative of a real world experience to playing the game. He plans to never play on MODO every again because he just wasted $200.
A lot of other players complain about the loss of a "live" opponent whom you can speak with during the game.
I'm really bugged that WotC has not designed the UI to let your "avatar" be a live video stream if you have one and to incorporate VOIP communications between players. The tone of your opponent can set the stage to how both player's feel and makes the game better. You bet a better feel and experience.
Also, where's the tablet version of MODO already? We have DoTP 2013. They should be pushing out a tablet version of MODO anyday now that truly supports video/audio feed. That's where I'd be putting my time, energy, and money if I were them. It's a new age, so let's feel like it!
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"In response to your Brainstorm, I use Vedalken Orrery to play Chains of Mephistopheles as an instant."
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
While I definitely agree MTGO needs to accelerate its development of new outlets such as tablet and IOS apps, I do not see this drop in card value as a loss of interest in the game itself.
Cards can lose value for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with interest in the game itself.
Modern for example is a much cheaper format to play than Legacy. Perhaps as modern has become more popular the high ticket cards in legacy have lost value. The prices of the Modern card pool has stayed basically the same (since Legacy card pool completely encompasses Modern). SO there could be a net loss in card value because if a shift from older expensive formats to newer one.
Modern could also be attracting players that would normally have entered teh standard format.
Modern could also be attracting players that would normally have entered teh standard format.
Thoughts?
I only got into MTGO this year, playing standard, and if card values actually do drop considerably I will be quite happy to pick them up for Modern and even Legacy.
For me it comes down to this: A) MTGO eventually crawls out of the dark ages and everybody loves it (ok, well, is content with it) or B) MTGO eventually fails completely, servers come down, all card value is lost, etc etc.
Option B sounds relatively far-fetched I think. MTGO will stay around as long as there is a base for it, and perhaps now more than ever there is a real driver for fixing it. Wizards has one excellent digital product, Duels of the Planeswalkers. If they can do that, they can get MTGO right too. They just need to devote the proper resources to it, something they are apparently realizing. I know this will haunt them for some time to come, but something like this probably had to happen for it to really get better.
prices restored again, so this article is already outdated.
Restoring prices on MTGO shows that WOTC can do wathever they want, people keep paying.
More revolution is needed. People should not allow that WOTC asks same price online as in real life, without a very decent software.
This software needs to be best of the best. Stabe, beautiful, user friendly.
It's none of these!
Eh the prices are restored again? So I'm gonna make a killing on all the thoughtsiezes I bought at 5 tix because they are back up to 10 now? I can't actually check prices from work easily.
See I haven't lost any confidence, I know that WoTc is in a period of trying to play catch up to technology. Online wasn't their core, its a side thing. They are finally realizing they need to put a real emphasis on it. That means probably hiring some people who aren't stuck in the 90s (seriously Roseanne hasn't been relevant in almost 20 years Rosewater... get over it!)
The article is interesting, but at the end of the day is simply an opinion article. It's just as valid as Kibler's open letter of disappointment and I agree with many of the authors views. I used to be a voracious consumer of modo, but after my 4th daily event crashed with me 3-0 and all I receive being my entry fee in return I couldn't handle it anymore. I cashed out most of my cards and now I keep one cheap burn deck on their to play around on when I can't find real life people to play.
I currently watch MoDo videos online, and while I love Magic, video games, and convenience, I keep finding reasons not to join. The design is hilariously dated with bad sound effects galore, constant glitches, and constant fear of a crash. There's no interactivity beyond basic chat. Service is poor. It only works on Windows. There's no sign of major improvements in the future. Why is Duels of the Planeswalkers so much better designed than one of the largest mediums of MTG sales?
Obviously, this isn't exactly the most professional piece of writing in the world, but it brings up a big point: the fact that online cards are worth so close to their paper value despite all these issues and the inherent negatives of not playing paper magic shows how much money Wizards is leaving on the table. They really should rebuild the whole site from the ground up.
I did think this article was sub-standard, but it nevertheless has a very valid point. Hopefully the last few weeks have been an eye-opener for Wizards, and probably more importantly, Hasbro.
Again, my experience comes from those around me: my roommate has drafted over 200 tickets worth of Theros... he has lost 90% of his games because the "shuffler" has given him 8+ lands in row EVERY GAME. I witnessed every time this happened. It's alarming and representative of a real world experience to playing the game. He plans to never play on MODO every again because he just wasted $200.
I don't believe any of this for a single second. There is nothing wrong with the shuffler, humans just have a difficulty with grasping randomness, and we are also prone to selective memory. And we cope with failure (losing) by blaming forces beyond our control. In this case, it is almost certain that all were in play, and that if your friend lost 90% of his games, he almost assuredly drafted, built and/or played poorly. Magic Online cannot be blamed for this.
I price checked a mono red deck at $120 before the announcement. It is around $80 today but was around $70 last friday, that's not completely restored now is it?
Depends on how you are trying to define it. A specific deck being worth less doesn't mean too much. Tracking the indexes shows that values are still down about 10% across the board though.
I did think this article was sub-standard, but it nevertheless has a very valid point. Hopefully the last few weeks have been an eye-opener for Wizards, and probably more importantly, Hasbro.
However:
I don't believe any of this for a single second. There is nothing wrong with the shuffler, humans just have a difficulty with grasping randomness, and we are also prone to selective memory. And we cope with failure (losing) by blaming forces beyond our control. In this case, it is almost certain that all were in play, and that if your friend lost 90% of his games, he almost assuredly drafted, built and/or played poorly. Magic Online cannot be blamed for this.
Sene, one thong you have to remember about Forbes.com. It is a lot like the Gawker websites. Anyone is allowed to contribute to the site, and they don't have to demonstrate any actual knowledge of the subject. As was suggested earlier, take it with a grain of salt.
Am I the only one that am happy about this? I'm tired of paying ridiculous amounts to get cards that don't exist so that I can playtest. I would love it if the value tanked completely.
Am I the only one that am happy about this? I'm tired of paying ridiculous amounts to get cards that don't exist so that I can playtest. I would love it if the value tanked completely.
For people that just generally play the fact that prices are going down are beneficial in theory, however it hurts people who mainly draft since they can no longer unload "money" cards to help fund additional drafts at as high of a percentage.
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“Your body is not a temple, it's an amusement park. Enjoy the ride.”
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
I don't thin kit will end because there is no way to play Magic and tournaments with other live players 24 hours a day. I have a heavy work/school/family schedule and thanks to MTGO I can play 10+ games a day. If I had to rely on face t o face games, I'd only get a couple a week.
Also, I never like Cockatrice or the others. I enjoy much of the automated gameplay and rules enforcement that MTGO offers. Plus, the cheaper prices means I can tr out cards that are too expensive in paper.
I did think this article was sub-standard, but it nevertheless has a very valid point. Hopefully the last few weeks have been an eye-opener for Wizards, and probably more importantly, Hasbro.
However:
I don't believe any of this for a single second. There is nothing wrong with the shuffler, humans just have a difficulty with grasping randomness, and we are also prone to selective memory. And we cope with failure (losing) by blaming forces beyond our control. In this case, it is almost certain that all were in play, and that if your friend lost 90% of his games, he almost assuredly drafted, built and/or played poorly. Magic Online cannot be blamed for this.
I agree 100%. If anything people have got so used to getting away with incomplete randomization of their decks playing paper magic that they don't understand that true randomization happens more frequently online than in paper magic.
In paper magic you pile shuffle a few times followed by a few rifle shuffles and present. Your opponent cuts and assumes that this is good enough. This may be good enough but is not true randomization.
At my FNMs / PTQs I see a lot of mulligans because the really good players shuffle their opponents decks knowing that the more the deck is shuffled the more random it is there by increasing the chance that their opponent will have to mulligan.
About the article ... well it is what it is. I don't think the author really added any facts that drives his opinion home. However it is interesting to see that news sources such as forbes are picking up on events like this. I guess they are interested because Hasbro and WotC are publicly traded companies but interesting none the less.
At my FNMs / PTQs I see a lot of mulligans because the really good players shuffle their opponents decks knowing that the more the deck is shuffled the more random it is there by increasing the chance that their opponent will have to mulligan.
Yes, if you shuffle a deck twice as long, it is double random after that. I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
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Sometimes those with the most sin cast the first stones.
I price checked a mono red deck at $120 before the announcement. It is around $80 today but was around $70 last friday, that's not completely restored now is it?
No prices are not back, esp if the deck has a lot of THS cards in it. I bought into THS mythics when they started to stabilize, but I knew rares were going to shed another 20% or so. The more junky the cards, the more they will nosedive.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Yes, if you shuffle a deck twice as long, it is double random after that. I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
RL shuffling is not random, or to be more accurate, almost nobody shuffles long or well enough to get a random result.
Stack your deck with all cards of the same name grouped together, all the lands followed by all the spells. Try and get a random result from this deck by riffle shuffling for two minutes. Most people can't.
I know a lot of people that played on MTGO that rarely has time to play the game with real cards have switched to Hearthstone.
I think the issue is that MTGO is on an antiquated platform. The only incentive for me to play MTGO is to play Vintage but I know that Vintage dailies would be dead because it's not a real supported format (no GPs, PTQs - Legacy only gets busy when a GP is around) and having to pay twice to play the same format (FoW is the main offender here, the value of Power has yet to be determined).
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Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
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I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2013/11/19/magic-the-gathering-losing-11-1-market-value-overnight-for-poor-customer-service/
Ah, so if a stock loses 11% of its value, that means that investors have lost exactly 11% of their confidence. Wow, so much happened in the College of Business that I missed out on. No wonder this expert now writes for Forbes! Hilarious.
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The MOCS crashing every year is a really ridiculous. As a guy who beta tested the V3 UI back in 2005, I can definitely say that WotC does not listen to anyone. Every bit of feedback posted from testers criticized the User Interface, wasted space, and terrible side-bar system... and that was just the UI. Heavy complaints about the actual game play were also offered stating that the newer version offered no increased efficiency in game play.
What did they do? "Well, we're so far along that we'll just stick with what we have. Thanks guys"
WTF??? Why even do a beta if you're just going to roll out the software anyways? Garbage in, garbage out.
That article is making it clear that MODO needs change. 10% loss in value is significant. Very significant.
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Personally I've refused to invest heavily into MTGO since the beginning, because all gaming software has a finite life span which depends on too many variables. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the sky is falling or that MTGO is going to die any time soon - but, if it keeps on the path it's been on since it's inception, then it's only going to decline over time.
(Also known as Xenphire)
Very true. It's not dying today or tomorrow, or even the day after that... but it's losing customers and the value of their digital products are going down.
My experience alone is that I invested heavily after the hurricane Katrina (no other place to play) but could not get over the buggy, resource craving UI they pushed out... I stopped playing. I picked up a few packs of Masters Ed 1 and collected Force of Wills and Mana Drains for myself, then stopped. I expected a crazy rate of return... FoW peaked, then dropped. Drains never did well. Bazaar and Workshops are $20. It's so easy to get into this format, but why aren't people?
Again, my experience comes from those around me: my roommate has drafted over 200 tickets worth of Theros... he has lost 90% of his games because the "shuffler" has given him 8+ lands in row EVERY GAME. I witnessed every time this happened. It's alarming and representative of a real world experience to playing the game. He plans to never play on MODO every again because he just wasted $200.
A lot of other players complain about the loss of a "live" opponent whom you can speak with during the game.
I'm really bugged that WotC has not designed the UI to let your "avatar" be a live video stream if you have one and to incorporate VOIP communications between players. The tone of your opponent can set the stage to how both player's feel and makes the game better. You bet a better feel and experience.
Also, where's the tablet version of MODO already? We have DoTP 2013. They should be pushing out a tablet version of MODO anyday now that truly supports video/audio feed. That's where I'd be putting my time, energy, and money if I were them. It's a new age, so let's feel like it!
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Cards can lose value for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with interest in the game itself.
Modern for example is a much cheaper format to play than Legacy. Perhaps as modern has become more popular the high ticket cards in legacy have lost value. The prices of the Modern card pool has stayed basically the same (since Legacy card pool completely encompasses Modern). SO there could be a net loss in card value because if a shift from older expensive formats to newer one.
Modern could also be attracting players that would normally have entered teh standard format.
Thoughts?
I only got into MTGO this year, playing standard, and if card values actually do drop considerably I will be quite happy to pick them up for Modern and even Legacy.
For me it comes down to this: A) MTGO eventually crawls out of the dark ages and everybody loves it (ok, well, is content with it) or B) MTGO eventually fails completely, servers come down, all card value is lost, etc etc.
Option B sounds relatively far-fetched I think. MTGO will stay around as long as there is a base for it, and perhaps now more than ever there is a real driver for fixing it. Wizards has one excellent digital product, Duels of the Planeswalkers. If they can do that, they can get MTGO right too. They just need to devote the proper resources to it, something they are apparently realizing. I know this will haunt them for some time to come, but something like this probably had to happen for it to really get better.
My cautiously-optimistic $.02
Eh the prices are restored again? So I'm gonna make a killing on all the thoughtsiezes I bought at 5 tix because they are back up to 10 now? I can't actually check prices from work easily.
See I haven't lost any confidence, I know that WoTc is in a period of trying to play catch up to technology. Online wasn't their core, its a side thing. They are finally realizing they need to put a real emphasis on it. That means probably hiring some people who aren't stuck in the 90s (seriously Roseanne hasn't been relevant in almost 20 years Rosewater... get over it!)
Obviously, this isn't exactly the most professional piece of writing in the world, but it brings up a big point: the fact that online cards are worth so close to their paper value despite all these issues and the inherent negatives of not playing paper magic shows how much money Wizards is leaving on the table. They really should rebuild the whole site from the ground up.
Cubetutor Link
However:
I don't believe any of this for a single second. There is nothing wrong with the shuffler, humans just have a difficulty with grasping randomness, and we are also prone to selective memory. And we cope with failure (losing) by blaming forces beyond our control. In this case, it is almost certain that all were in play, and that if your friend lost 90% of his games, he almost assuredly drafted, built and/or played poorly. Magic Online cannot be blamed for this.
Depends on how you are trying to define it. A specific deck being worth less doesn't mean too much. Tracking the indexes shows that values are still down about 10% across the board though.
Sene, one thong you have to remember about Forbes.com. It is a lot like the Gawker websites. Anyone is allowed to contribute to the site, and they don't have to demonstrate any actual knowledge of the subject. As was suggested earlier, take it with a grain of salt.
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Reality is only what man allows it to be. Few shape it so that many may accept it.
For people that just generally play the fact that prices are going down are beneficial in theory, however it hurts people who mainly draft since they can no longer unload "money" cards to help fund additional drafts at as high of a percentage.
― Anthony Bourdain, Kitchen Confidential
I will always firmly stand by the belief that Magic is a game first and a collectable second.
Also, I never like Cockatrice or the others. I enjoy much of the automated gameplay and rules enforcement that MTGO offers. Plus, the cheaper prices means I can tr out cards that are too expensive in paper.
Is Forbes print magazine the same way?
[Clan Flamingo]
I agree 100%. If anything people have got so used to getting away with incomplete randomization of their decks playing paper magic that they don't understand that true randomization happens more frequently online than in paper magic.
In paper magic you pile shuffle a few times followed by a few rifle shuffles and present. Your opponent cuts and assumes that this is good enough. This may be good enough but is not true randomization.
At my FNMs / PTQs I see a lot of mulligans because the really good players shuffle their opponents decks knowing that the more the deck is shuffled the more random it is there by increasing the chance that their opponent will have to mulligan.
About the article ... well it is what it is. I don't think the author really added any facts that drives his opinion home. However it is interesting to see that news sources such as forbes are picking up on events like this. I guess they are interested because Hasbro and WotC are publicly traded companies but interesting none the less.
Yes, if you shuffle a deck twice as long, it is double random after that. I'm pretty sure that's how it works.
Sort of, but not really. According to several studies regarding the randomness of shuffling techniques, shuffling has an exponential effect on the randomness of the deck. The first four-five shuffles does not randomise the deck much at all, but then the sixth and seventh shuffles sharply increase the randomness of the deck. So, shuffling your opponent's deck could have an effect on its randomness if it wasn't shuffled sufficiently.
No prices are not back, esp if the deck has a lot of THS cards in it. I bought into THS mythics when they started to stabilize, but I knew rares were going to shed another 20% or so. The more junky the cards, the more they will nosedive.
Voice of Resurgence seems to have recovered 5-6 tix in the last week.
RL shuffling is not random, or to be more accurate, almost nobody shuffles long or well enough to get a random result.
Stack your deck with all cards of the same name grouped together, all the lands followed by all the spells. Try and get a random result from this deck by riffle shuffling for two minutes. Most people can't.
I know a lot of people that played on MTGO that rarely has time to play the game with real cards have switched to Hearthstone.
I think the issue is that MTGO is on an antiquated platform. The only incentive for me to play MTGO is to play Vintage but I know that Vintage dailies would be dead because it's not a real supported format (no GPs, PTQs - Legacy only gets busy when a GP is around) and having to pay twice to play the same format (FoW is the main offender here, the value of Power has yet to be determined).
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
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