So will the fight over those last 100 spots be broadcast live on twitch?
I certainly hope so, that would be badass.
I definitely think that the venue itself will be over capacity just in the fact locals and those unable to register will still attend all the side events because it's pretty much the only place you will be able to get MM at MSRP.
GP: GongShow
Actually I think the biggest reason why they are surprised at this is because they didn't think modern masters was as desirable as it was. And this GP is really the only place to get MSRP packs.
I am not on the staff for Vegas, unfortunately (logistically impossible for me to get there, or I'd be going). But I've been talking to people who are, and who are wrangling this beast of an event, and have some things to point out:
First off, GP Vegas was originally expected to be large, but large on the known scale of GPs; Las Vegas is not historically a place that has drawn huge numbers (expensive, far away from a lot of the major Magic-playing population centers, etc.). This was not an unreasonable expectation.
The preregistration numbers didn't explode until very recently. Today is June 20; prereg broke 1000 players on May 30. And that's when the snowball effect started: 2000 players was passed on June 10. 3000 players was passed on June 17.
The event was staffed as a large GP, with several more GP-sized groups of judges coming in "on-call" -- they'd play if the event didn't need more judges (and Tim, good guy that he is, offered to waive entry for any judge doing this), or judge if the event did need them.
The event needed them. And then needed even more people. Right now:
One-third of all L3 judges in the world are going to be on staff.
One-third of the L4s and half the L5s are going to be on staff.
A bit under 40% of all L2+ judges in the United States, including what looks like every single L2+ in the Southwest US region and a majority of the L2+ in neighboring regions, will be there.
And it's still not enough. Right now, basically all L2+ judges who are financially capable of reaching Las Vegas by Saturday, and some who aren't, are looking at flights and trying to find a cramped bit of floor space to sleep on. There are no more hotel rooms available; people are squeezing in four or more to a room.
And it's still not enough. There's plenty of space in the convention hall, plenty of tables and chairs available, plenty of booster packs available. But as one of the people involved in staffing told me a little while ago, they've called up everybody who's available to be called up, and even people who weren't. I never thought I'd hear somebody say "we ran out of L2s", but that is what seems to be happening (and GPs are L2+ events -- L1s are not tested on Competitive enforcement, much less Professional).
Actually I think the biggest reason why they are surprised at this is because they didn't think modern masters was as desirable as it was. And this GP is really place to get MSRP packs.
This is the fundamental reason behind how big this is. It's also the second product in less tan a year where they have DRAMATICALLY underestimated it's popularity (commander foil thing is the other).
Its kind of silly how the *cheapest* way to get the packs is to play in tournaments, and just buying them at the store - where there is no need for prize support to be added to the cost - is significantly more expensive.
I'm playing two sealed decks at GenCon, as is my wife. Together we played $200 for effectively one box worth of packs -- cheaper than we could have bought at any local store. The main reason we're playing is to get the cards -- because there is no other cost effective way to do it.
Its a good idea, but waiting until week of to make the announcement is asinine. Its easily justifiable to assume people who make plans wont recheck the website within 3 days of the tournament.
If you make plans in advance though, you are likely pre-registering.
Also, I imagine if you are good enough to go to a GP, you probably are big into the magic community and probably will hear about this before making the journey over to Vegas.
And if the event is capped at 4500 anyway (due to building constraints I believe), this is all kind of a moot point. If you go up to this event on Saturday expecting to join and don't get in because it's maxed out, thats the same as going up their staurday and not being able to join cause you didn't pre-register.
Liek I mentioned above, this is fine and all - and probably true. But, this is not a new event organizer. Any idiot with half a brain could have seen that this was going to be the biggest event in magic history. There is no reason to be "blindsided" by the number of registrants and change the registration rules at the last minute.
It is utterly unprofessional.
Fair... I think they should've figured it out when it was at 2500 last week that maybe we should do something about the growing number. So that's a valid point, but obviously that isn't an argument in favor of keeping Saturday registration.
I do take offense with the idea that they should've known how big this was going to be from the get-go. The prior record was like in the low 2000s I think. Guessing that this was going to be double the record isn't obvious IMO. Again though, you still had time to make the call when it was at 2500 last week.
Also, I imagine if you are good enough to go to a GP, you probably are big into the magic community and probably will hear about this before making the journey over to Vegas.
GP's are open events, AND playing in the GP is the cheapest way for locals to acquire packs.
It is literally cheaper to get packs by paying to enter the tournament, then it is to go to the store and buy them. That is why the numbers are huge, well that and this is the *only* time it will ever happen.
If they had, instead, done two MMA Gp's you'd still be seeing big numbers (3000-3500 I'd guess), but nowhere near what you are seeing here. This is literally a once in a lifetime event.
And if the event is capped at 4500 anyway (due to building constraints I believe), this is all kind of a moot point. If you go up to this event on Saturday expecting to join and don't get in because it's maxed out, thats the same as going up their staurday and not being able to join cause you didn't pre-register.
From what they said on their site, its not actually a building code issue -- they said they have plenty of space and equipment. It largely seems like a personnel issue. Although, with them getting $270000 in entry fees to the main event alone (not counting VIP, etc) you'd think they'd be able to rectify that.
Fair... I think they should've figured it out when it was at 2500 last week that maybe we should do something about the growing number. So that's a valid point, but obviously that isn't an argument in favor of keeping Saturday registration.
I have no problems making it pre-reg only and killing Saturday registration. Provided that decision is made and people are informed sufficinetly in advance. Less than a week's notice is insufficient.
I am not on the staff for Vegas, unfortunately (logistically impossible for me to get there, or I'd be going). But I've been talking to people who are, and who are wrangling this beast of an event, and have some things to point out:
First off, GP Vegas was originally expected to be large, but large on the known scale of GPs; Las Vegas is not historically a place that has drawn huge numbers (expensive, far away from a lot of the major Magic-playing population centers, etc.). This was not an unreasonable expectation.
The preregistration numbers didn't explode until very recently. Today is June 20; prereg broke 1000 players on May 30. And that's when the snowball effect started: 2000 players was passed on June 10. 3000 players was passed on June 17.
The event was staffed as a large GP, with several more GP-sized groups of judges coming in "on-call" -- they'd play if the event didn't need more judges (and Tim, good guy that he is, offered to waive entry for any judge doing this), or judge if the event did need them.
The event needed them. And then needed even more people. Right now:
One-third of all L3 judges in the world are going to be on staff.
One-third of the L4s and half the L5s are going to be on staff.
A bit under 40% of all L2+ judges in the United States, including what looks like every single L2+ in the Southwest US region and a majority of the L2+ in neighboring regions, will be there.
And it's still not enough. Right now, basically all L2+ judges who are financially capable of reaching Las Vegas by Saturday, and some who aren't, are looking at flights and trying to find a cramped bit of floor space to sleep on. There are no more hotel rooms available; people are squeezing in four or more to a room.
And it's still not enough. There's plenty of space in the convention hall, plenty of tables and chairs available, plenty of booster packs available. But as one of the people involved in staffing told me a little while ago, they've called up everybody who's available to be called up, and even people who weren't. I never thought I'd hear somebody say "we ran out of L2s", but that is what seems to be happening (and GPs are L2+ events -- L1s are not tested on Competitive enforcement, much less Professional).
A very good post here, I think people vastly underrate the needed number of judges for a an event that hits well over 4000. They put this thing in Vegas because they knew it would be big but I think at the time they thought 4000+ was a pipe dream of attendance.
I have no problems making it pre-reg only and killing Saturday registration. Provided that decision is made and people are informed sufficinetly in advance. Less than a week's notice is insufficient.
I agree that less than a weeks notice is insufficient, but the solution isn't to allow Saturday registration and have a 5500+ person tournament and piss everyone off because the tournament is slow because there aren't enough people running the thing. You just take the hit... people are going to be mad that they didn't realize it was pre-reg only and tried to join on Saturday. There really isn't anything you can do about that and maintain the integrity of the event.
It would've been nice had they gotten ahead of this a little big and given people more of a warning, but they didn't and that's on them. That doesn't mean the decision was bad compared to other realistic alternatives.
I don't pretend to know why they had to cap it at 4500 if it isn't an issue they have no control over (like building size which turns out to be wrong). I'm assuming they make more money the more people show up. It's got to be an issue where they just don't have the supplies (personel, tables, chairs w/e) and they are afraid that the tournament as a whole will suffer if they just allow everyone that wants to play to play.
I agree that less than a weeks notice is insufficient, but the solution isn't to allow Saturday registration and have a 5500+ person tournament and piss everyone off because the tournament is slow because there aren't enough people running the thing. You just take the hit... people are going to be mad that they didn't realize it was pre-reg only and tried to join on Saturday. There really isn't anything you can do about that and maintain the integrity of the event.
It would've been nice had they gotten ahead of this a little big and given people more of a warning, but they didn't and that's on them. That doesn't mean the decision was bad compared to other realistic alternatives.
I don't pretend to know why they had to cap it at 4500 if it isn't an issue they have no control over (like building size which turns out to be wrong). I'm assuming they make more money the more people show up. It's got to be an issue where they just don't have the supplies (personel, tables, chairs w/e) and they are afraid that the tournament as a whole will suffer if they just allow everyone that wants to play to play.
Did you read the post about the judges? They are calling up judges from around the US to come judge the event. They can't use L1 judges they must be L2 or higher so that limits it a lot.
The main concern probably now is judges per # of players. They don't want people to have to wait 10+ minutes to get a judge to respond to a "JUDGE!" call or something.
If you have 135 judges at a 4500 player event that is one judge per 33 people. Sounds fine but then you have to realize side events some judges are busy with other things etc.. I think for an event like that ideally you would want 200-250 judges. That is a ridiculously tall order when you can't take any L1 or lower judges.
I agree that less than a weeks notice is insufficient, but the solution isn't to allow Saturday registration and have a 5500+ person tournament and piss everyone off because the tournament is slow because there aren't enough people running the thing. You just take the hit... people are going to be mad that they didn't realize it was pre-reg only and tried to join on Saturday. There really isn't anything you can do about that and maintain the integrity of the event.
Sure there is.
Announce another MM GP...or a bunch more. If necessary, make a rule that you can't to go both Vegas and the new one. Instantly, you'll reduce the demand for Vegas to a reasonable level.
Announce another MM GP...or a bunch more. If necessary, make a rule that you can't to go both Vegas and the new one. Instantly, you'll reduce the demand for Vegas to a reasonable level.
There is probably a reason they aren't doing that.
If it's an issue of not having enough packs or whatever the situation ends up being or Wizards just doesn't have the room in the schedule for a second MM GP. Cause if there wasn't a restrictive factor, then I don't see why they wouldn't do another GP.
But another thing to consider is you seem to be arguing under the philosophy that if a player wants to go to this event, they should be able to go no matter what and it's on the organizer to make it work. It's not an uncommon thing to happen where events get capped at a certain number. Concerts and sports events sell out and people don't complain to the organizer there that they couldn't get a ticket.
This is going to be a very interesting trainwreck, i think. Still, it will hopefully make WotC make some long term decisions to prevent this again.
I read somewhere that 4500 is not enough for the world record; that the record is actually at 4564.
Eh... trainwreck is relative. Because the only thing bad that has happened here is they've capped the event because it sold much more than they expected.
Unless we are talking about the trainwreck of Modern Masters limited print runs in general.
They could've prevented a lot of this by just not giving boxes to stores and having multiple modern masters events, not even GPs.
Eh... trainwreck is relative. Because the only thing bad that has happened here is they've capped the event because it sold much more than they expected.
Unless we are talking about the trainwreck of Modern Masters limited print runs in general.
They could've prevented a lot of this by just not giving boxes to stores and having multiple modern masters events, not even GPs.
I tend to agree that it will most likely be a trainwreck given the size. There's jsut no feasible way to run it without it being a trainwreck. Theft will be extremely rampant given that the average value of sealed pools is significantly higher than normal. Rounds will be ridiculously long. Judge calls will happen in error.
All of these things will happen in proportion to the size. The problem is, we don't get proportional reporting of these things. The internet will see "holy smokes 4 times as many peoples stuff was stolen here!" without htinking "oh, wait, there were four times as many people there..."
In my opinion, the train wreck won't be the actual event itself, so much as everything surrounding it.
There is probably a reason they aren't doing that.
If it's an issue of not having enough packs or whatever the situation ends up being or Wizards just doesn't have the room in the schedule for a second MM GP. Cause if there wasn't a restrictive factor, then I don't see why they wouldn't do another GP.
But another thing to consider is you seem to be arguing under the philosophy that if a player wants to go to this event, they should be able to go no matter what and it's on the organizer to make it work. It's not an uncommon thing to happen where events get capped at a certain number. Concerts and sports events sell out and people don't complain to the organizer there that they couldn't get a ticket.
This isn't a concert or sports event. It's a GP, and the tradition back (I think) to the beginning is that GPs are open to everyone. The big events which aren't are called Pro Tours.
It's easy to say you could expect 5000+ people, but up till now the highest number has been 2700. Anyone that's run events that have even 100 people can tell you it's not easy. I can't even imagine trying to run a 4500 person event. Would it have been better to know ahead of time that they weren't going to do day of registration? For sure, but not everyone is psychic.
It's easy to say you could expect 5000+ people, but up till now the highest number has been 2700. Anyone that's run events that have even 100 people can tell you it's not easy. I can't even imagine trying to run a 4500 person event. Would it have been better to know ahead of time that they weren't going to do day of registration? For sure, but not everyone is psychic.
Cheers
Even if they knew it would have been 5000 they would have had to fly judges in specially for the event judges that may live on the other side of the planet. Again they explained that's the biggest problem judges and staff. Not table space not product not adding a few more table numbers to the thing. They actually were thinking it could possibly hit 3000-4000 if they were really lucky, but as stated when the 2nd largest event ever in the history of the game was a 2600 person GP in Charlotte its mind boggling to think that number would be beaten by so much.
This isn't a concert or sports event. It's a GP, and the tradition back (I think) to the beginning is that GPs are open to everyone. The big events which aren't are called Pro Tours.
The restriction on concerts/sporting events is number of seats, same as a GP. They've just never had a GP where there were too many people until now.
Obviously the desire is that you want everyone that wants to go to go... but if more people want to go than they can realistically/feasibly support, then they have to cut the entrance to the event off.
Same with an FNM. If your store averages 50 people normally... and then for a pre-release or MM draft suddenly 150 people want to go, the store owner is going to cap the event at the number of people he can support.
It's the exact same thing here, if they can't feasibly support a certain number of people, you have to expect them to cap the number off.
I think it's a little unfair to criticize them on this decision, because A) they are unable to support everyone, so they lose money on the people that can't go and B) the demand was beyond expectations. You have people in this thread that basically say "hey guys, they should've seen them getting more than double the record in attendees". It's a lot harder to plan these events than you guys make it seem and no one was predicting 5K people wanting to do this from the get-go.
This entire event is a nightmare. The delays, the lines, and lack of info, its ridiculous. And they only made 1500 mats available. So less than a third of the people paying for the main event even get a mat. Pure incompetence.
And pre-reg is now capped at 4400? That's gonna make for a mad scramble tomorrow morning for the last 100 (or so) seats!
On another note, there's a very good chance that this GP will set the Guinness world record for the largest trading card game tournament.
I give it a 0% chance of not hitting 4500 people. Given that pre-reg is flooding in.
Frankly I'm shocked that they (apparently) didn't see this coming from a mile awawy...
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I certainly hope so, that would be badass.
I definitely think that the venue itself will be over capacity just in the fact locals and those unable to register will still attend all the side events because it's pretty much the only place you will be able to get MM at MSRP.
GP: GongShow
Actually I think the biggest reason why they are surprised at this is because they didn't think modern masters was as desirable as it was. And this GP is really the only place to get MSRP packs.
First off, GP Vegas was originally expected to be large, but large on the known scale of GPs; Las Vegas is not historically a place that has drawn huge numbers (expensive, far away from a lot of the major Magic-playing population centers, etc.). This was not an unreasonable expectation.
The preregistration numbers didn't explode until very recently. Today is June 20; prereg broke 1000 players on May 30. And that's when the snowball effect started: 2000 players was passed on June 10. 3000 players was passed on June 17.
The event was staffed as a large GP, with several more GP-sized groups of judges coming in "on-call" -- they'd play if the event didn't need more judges (and Tim, good guy that he is, offered to waive entry for any judge doing this), or judge if the event did need them.
The event needed them. And then needed even more people. Right now:
And it's still not enough. Right now, basically all L2+ judges who are financially capable of reaching Las Vegas by Saturday, and some who aren't, are looking at flights and trying to find a cramped bit of floor space to sleep on. There are no more hotel rooms available; people are squeezing in four or more to a room.
And it's still not enough. There's plenty of space in the convention hall, plenty of tables and chairs available, plenty of booster packs available. But as one of the people involved in staffing told me a little while ago, they've called up everybody who's available to be called up, and even people who weren't. I never thought I'd hear somebody say "we ran out of L2s", but that is what seems to be happening (and GPs are L2+ events -- L1s are not tested on Competitive enforcement, much less Professional).
----
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This is the fundamental reason behind how big this is. It's also the second product in less tan a year where they have DRAMATICALLY underestimated it's popularity (commander foil thing is the other).
Its kind of silly how the *cheapest* way to get the packs is to play in tournaments, and just buying them at the store - where there is no need for prize support to be added to the cost - is significantly more expensive.
I'm playing two sealed decks at GenCon, as is my wife. Together we played $200 for effectively one box worth of packs -- cheaper than we could have bought at any local store. The main reason we're playing is to get the cards -- because there is no other cost effective way to do it.
If you make plans in advance though, you are likely pre-registering.
Also, I imagine if you are good enough to go to a GP, you probably are big into the magic community and probably will hear about this before making the journey over to Vegas.
And if the event is capped at 4500 anyway (due to building constraints I believe), this is all kind of a moot point. If you go up to this event on Saturday expecting to join and don't get in because it's maxed out, thats the same as going up their staurday and not being able to join cause you didn't pre-register.
Fair... I think they should've figured it out when it was at 2500 last week that maybe we should do something about the growing number. So that's a valid point, but obviously that isn't an argument in favor of keeping Saturday registration.
I do take offense with the idea that they should've known how big this was going to be from the get-go. The prior record was like in the low 2000s I think. Guessing that this was going to be double the record isn't obvious IMO. Again though, you still had time to make the call when it was at 2500 last week.
GP's are open events, AND playing in the GP is the cheapest way for locals to acquire packs.
It is literally cheaper to get packs by paying to enter the tournament, then it is to go to the store and buy them. That is why the numbers are huge, well that and this is the *only* time it will ever happen.
If they had, instead, done two MMA Gp's you'd still be seeing big numbers (3000-3500 I'd guess), but nowhere near what you are seeing here. This is literally a once in a lifetime event.
From what they said on their site, its not actually a building code issue -- they said they have plenty of space and equipment. It largely seems like a personnel issue. Although, with them getting $270000 in entry fees to the main event alone (not counting VIP, etc) you'd think they'd be able to rectify that.
I have no problems making it pre-reg only and killing Saturday registration. Provided that decision is made and people are informed sufficinetly in advance. Less than a week's notice is insufficient.
A very good post here, I think people vastly underrate the needed number of judges for a an event that hits well over 4000. They put this thing in Vegas because they knew it would be big but I think at the time they thought 4000+ was a pipe dream of attendance.
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I agree that less than a weeks notice is insufficient, but the solution isn't to allow Saturday registration and have a 5500+ person tournament and piss everyone off because the tournament is slow because there aren't enough people running the thing. You just take the hit... people are going to be mad that they didn't realize it was pre-reg only and tried to join on Saturday. There really isn't anything you can do about that and maintain the integrity of the event.
It would've been nice had they gotten ahead of this a little big and given people more of a warning, but they didn't and that's on them. That doesn't mean the decision was bad compared to other realistic alternatives.
I don't pretend to know why they had to cap it at 4500 if it isn't an issue they have no control over (like building size which turns out to be wrong). I'm assuming they make more money the more people show up. It's got to be an issue where they just don't have the supplies (personel, tables, chairs w/e) and they are afraid that the tournament as a whole will suffer if they just allow everyone that wants to play to play.
Did you read the post about the judges? They are calling up judges from around the US to come judge the event. They can't use L1 judges they must be L2 or higher so that limits it a lot.
The main concern probably now is judges per # of players. They don't want people to have to wait 10+ minutes to get a judge to respond to a "JUDGE!" call or something.
If you have 135 judges at a 4500 player event that is one judge per 33 people. Sounds fine but then you have to realize side events some judges are busy with other things etc.. I think for an event like that ideally you would want 200-250 judges. That is a ridiculously tall order when you can't take any L1 or lower judges.
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Sure there is.
Announce another MM GP...or a bunch more. If necessary, make a rule that you can't to go both Vegas and the new one. Instantly, you'll reduce the demand for Vegas to a reasonable level.
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Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
http://cascadegames.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/i-was-wrong-and-im-sorry/
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I read somewhere that 4500 is not enough for the world record; that the record is actually at 4564.
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There is probably a reason they aren't doing that.
If it's an issue of not having enough packs or whatever the situation ends up being or Wizards just doesn't have the room in the schedule for a second MM GP. Cause if there wasn't a restrictive factor, then I don't see why they wouldn't do another GP.
But another thing to consider is you seem to be arguing under the philosophy that if a player wants to go to this event, they should be able to go no matter what and it's on the organizer to make it work. It's not an uncommon thing to happen where events get capped at a certain number. Concerts and sports events sell out and people don't complain to the organizer there that they couldn't get a ticket.
Eh... trainwreck is relative. Because the only thing bad that has happened here is they've capped the event because it sold much more than they expected.
Unless we are talking about the trainwreck of Modern Masters limited print runs in general.
They could've prevented a lot of this by just not giving boxes to stores and having multiple modern masters events, not even GPs.
I tend to agree that it will most likely be a trainwreck given the size. There's jsut no feasible way to run it without it being a trainwreck. Theft will be extremely rampant given that the average value of sealed pools is significantly higher than normal. Rounds will be ridiculously long. Judge calls will happen in error.
All of these things will happen in proportion to the size. The problem is, we don't get proportional reporting of these things. The internet will see "holy smokes 4 times as many peoples stuff was stolen here!" without htinking "oh, wait, there were four times as many people there..."
In my opinion, the train wreck won't be the actual event itself, so much as everything surrounding it.
This isn't a concert or sports event. It's a GP, and the tradition back (I think) to the beginning is that GPs are open to everyone. The big events which aren't are called Pro Tours.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
Cheers
Even if they knew it would have been 5000 they would have had to fly judges in specially for the event judges that may live on the other side of the planet. Again they explained that's the biggest problem judges and staff. Not table space not product not adding a few more table numbers to the thing. They actually were thinking it could possibly hit 3000-4000 if they were really lucky, but as stated when the 2nd largest event ever in the history of the game was a 2600 person GP in Charlotte its mind boggling to think that number would be beaten by so much.
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Ditto. Mad props to the TO and judges that are going to be on their feet for most of the weekend working this event.
The restriction on concerts/sporting events is number of seats, same as a GP. They've just never had a GP where there were too many people until now.
Obviously the desire is that you want everyone that wants to go to go... but if more people want to go than they can realistically/feasibly support, then they have to cut the entrance to the event off.
Same with an FNM. If your store averages 50 people normally... and then for a pre-release or MM draft suddenly 150 people want to go, the store owner is going to cap the event at the number of people he can support.
It's the exact same thing here, if they can't feasibly support a certain number of people, you have to expect them to cap the number off.
I think it's a little unfair to criticize them on this decision, because A) they are unable to support everyone, so they lose money on the people that can't go and B) the demand was beyond expectations. You have people in this thread that basically say "hey guys, they should've seen them getting more than double the record in attendees". It's a lot harder to plan these events than you guys make it seem and no one was predicting 5K people wanting to do this from the get-go.
The Guinness World Records states that Yugioh had the largest trading card game tournament in history at 4,364 players.
http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records-10000/largest-trading-card-game-tournament/
And I have seen people dispute that figure, saying it's higher.
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