Olivier Ruel was disqualified at GP Malmo and Subsequently Suspended

  • #30
    I'm a pretty big fan of Olivier's, so naturally I'm biased, but I'm inclined to doubt that he would intionally do something so obviously wrong. He just seems to have more integrity than that.

    I guess we'll find out more.
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  • #31
    ...I'm talking about how titles will go to a person's head, and I'm comparing it to others in my card-shop of how their popularity will let them believe that they're above the MTG Law...


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  • #32
    Ruel is going to love all the publicity this gives him....I mean who woulda knew getting DQ'ed from a Grand-Prix for something as simple as shuffling thr wrong way would gain you so much hype....

  • #33
    I'm sure most of us agree with you, but, he got called on it twice, from two different individuals..
  • #34
    Quote from Cyan »
    I doubt he was shuffling them face up, heh. He was probably holding them sideways to shuffle them, and when you shuffle that way, it's easy to look at the cards(which is why you should look away while you're doing it, it's not exactly hard to shuffle cards w/o looking).

    Yes. Yes it is. Maybe you have the Eye hand coordination for it, I don't. I'd say the proper thing to do, however, is shuffle it face down during the game, and then let your opponent know to shuffle it afterwards to prevent warpage.


    Edit: Wait, sorry, it's late and I'm not thinking. The only time shuffling requires that level of focus from me if I'm doing real card shuffleing, which is terrible on the cards anyway. Unless he's doing side-pile-mix, I'm not sure how he saw the cards?
    Last edited by Ramenth: 7/23/2006 12:45:34 AM
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  • #35
    No matter how you cut it this looks bad for him. He's been playing on the pro tour long enough to know what is alright and what isn't. Once is accident, twice seems like more than that.

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  • #36
    This is all trivial to a casual player like myself. Who really cares if he looked at the cards while shuffling. It's not like he can re-sideboard after shuffling an opponent's deck. I think this whole thing is silly and stupid.
  • #37
    Quote from Streetz »
    This is all trivial to a casual player like myself. Who really cares if he looked at the cards while shuffling. It's not like he can re-sideboard after shuffling an opponent's deck. I think this whole thing is silly and stupid.


    ...

    Right. Because knowing some cards of your opponent's deck isn't a huge advantage or anything...especially if they're bombs, or removal, etc. If you're just a casual player, why are you even reading this thread?
  • #38
    For all of you casual players who don't know, Pro Players cheat.

    Now, I want to say this with certainty because I've played against many before (including a Ruel brother.) They aren't perfect or always lucky. Sometimes you have to "help" your luck, such as using savage-cheating-skills.

    Personally, I know many ways to cheat, but I'm very rigorous in how I announce everything that I do. I don't believe that a player should have to cheat to win, so I'm very big about pointing out plays that players do as being wrong.

    In Ruel's situation, I can see how he was trying to get some advantage against his opponent. Almost every player that I know shuffles their opponent's decks sideways and tries to glace down now and then to see what they're playing.

    Once you've gotten good enough as a player, this is a small advantage on why good players continually beat "scrubs" as they may be called, or lesser-skilled players, when playing them in a match. In Game 1, knowing you're playing against WoGs, etc can give you a major advantage on your opening hands and how you play down your guys on turns 1 and 2 before even possibly seeing White mana from your opponents. Now, yes, this savage cheating, but guess what... it happens everywhere, and all the time.

    I don't consider the Ruel Brothers, or every other pro player, as a horrible player for cheating. They obviously have to push through major Live Top-8's which are filmed before millions, as well as Feature Matches of which all of their plays are recorded play-by-play. In those cases, the actually power and skill of the Pro Players shine. It's during the other matches where they use cheating skills to "guarantee" that they don't lose in a chance to make Day 2.

    On Day 2 of large events, most players begin to get matched against other pros and better players who actually keep an eye on your handsize (constantly, checking before and after draw steps and tutors.) and they also keep up with your land-count as well as making sure you tap your mana before you play your spells. With that much information being garnered after every play you make, you're being solid is allowing not one chance for your opponent to cheat against you.

    As for DQ, it happens to the best of them. Just imagine how many other times that Mike Long has not been DQ'd for cheating at large events? He's been caught quite a many times, and that's probably a fraction of what he's done. He always get caught against "scrubs", as he would call them, in an attempt to guarantee that he wouldn't lose to them. Many new players to large events are nervous, and Pro's straight-up take advantage of that and bully them down they they ask questions about possible acts of cheating.

    I'm sorry, but as much as this DQ is "bad for Oliveir", it's just a matter of fact that all Pro's do it. That's the threshold that players have to learn: The players better than you are only better than you because they cheat and get away with it before your own eyes.
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  • #39
    Quote from Qasur »
    For all of you casual players who don't know, Pro Players cheat.

    Now, I want to say this with certainty because I've played against many before (including a Ruel brother.) They aren't perfect or always lucky. Sometimes you have to "help" your luck, such as using savage-cheating-skills.


    Once you've gotten good enough as a player, this is a small advantage on why good players continually beat "scrubs" as they may be called, or lesser-skilled players, when playing them in a match. In Game 1, knowing you're playing against WoGs, etc can give you a major advantage on your opening hands and how you play down your guys on turns 1 and 2 before even possibly seeing White mana from your opponents. Now, yes, this savage cheating, but guess what... it happens everywhere, and all the time.

    I don't consider the Ruel Brothers, or every other pro player, as a horrible player for cheating. They obviously have to push through major Live Top-8's which are filmed before millions, as well as Feature Matches of which all of their plays are recorded play-by-play. In those cases, the actually power and skill of the Pro Players shine. It's during the other matches where they use cheating skills to "guarantee" that they don't lose in a chance to make Day 2.


    I'm sorry, but as much as this DQ is "bad for Oliveir", it's just a matter of fact that all Pro's do it. That's the threshold that players have to learn: The players better than you are only better than you because they cheat and get away with it before your own eyes.


    For all you casual players who don't know: some people who try to get on the Gravy Train but aren't good enough develop a kind of bitterness/paranoia that everyone is cheating/lucky. Some do, but even to compare Ruel with Mike Long or Bob Maher or to suggest simply that "Pros cheat" is wildly far from the mark.
    Last edited by stanalquin: 7/23/2006 3:23:43 AM
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  • #40
    @Qasur: That has got to be one of the most arrogant things I have ever heard. Aside from grouping all of the pro's together because of bad experiences you may have had, that still doesn't justify the assumption that there is no skill difference in playing.
    Quote from Qasur »
    That's the threshold that players have to learn: The players better than you are only better than you because they cheat and get away with it before your own eyes.

    That is complete BS. Sure, there are some players who win games because they cheat. There are also people who win at poker or other non-TCG card games that cheat. That doesn't mean you can assume all great poker players cheat, or that there is no skill involved.
    I hope I never have to waste my time playing a game of magic against you, seeing as you are advocating the persuit of cheating, as well as would probably just assume I was a better cheater than you.

    @Ruel: I'm sure if there are reports of suspected attempts to do this from previous tournaments, they will be a lot more harsh on him than just a DQ. Also, if he does more of this in the future, they might not be so kind to him. But if he just slipped up and didn't shuffle properly? W/e, we all do it. He got a DQ, and there's no way to justify not giving him atleast that much.
    Personally, I couldn't care less if it was one of the Ruel brothers that cheated, or some other pro, or if it was a random Joe. They shouldn't get any special treatment compared to others, and that seems to be what the judges are doing.
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  • #41
    Yes, it was a very arrogant post. I say it for the purpose of making it stand out so posters have reason to re-read it for the what it does say.

    I don't condone cheating at all, and I also, I've never had a bad experience from cheating at all. I have caught all players who have attempted to cheat againt me. I've had a few DQ'd before, but none that are that great.

    Simply put: Player cheat. Pro's Cheat, and I even said that not all do. In fact, the best Magic player is by far one of the best examples of a player who doesn't cheat: John Finkel, a.k.a. Johnny Magic. He advocated that Pro's did not need to cheat to prove they could Top-8 Pro Tours repeatedly, and he even joined the New York who was all about "We Don't Cheat." They are the heros in MTG that I look to.

    My point was to let others know things they may not know. As a joke after last years Worlds, some pros were joking around and were like: "The japanese have finally gotten as good as the Americans and won alll 3 of the large Prizes this year." and another one he was speaking with said (jokingly) "No, they just cheated better this year."

    Pros know that other pros cheat, and some have caught them while they have played. Any little trick helps, be-it looking at your opponent's deck while shuffling it, or accidentally drawing 2 cards a turn and quickly replacing the bottom one and going "Sorry, didn't mean to draw 2, they were stuck." This one happens a lot... and sometimes, yeah, it isn't purposeful. Other times, players do it a lot because they need savage TDS.

    Now, you said I group all pros in the category of cheaters, and yeah, that's not right. Some don't cheat, as I pointed out, but it's just the understanding that you should almost assume that someone you don't know that you're playing against is going to attempt to cheat you at something to gain some imaginable "upper-hand" against you, just so help them achieve victory. It just so happens that players such as Pros who soley play the game not for fun, but for the purpose of winning for money and free-trips everyone and to live a very good lifestyle of getting paid to play cards, is willing to toss Skill aside when no one is looking and just cheat flat-out to win. The less work for the same payoff, but guaranteed. It happens.

    Although players find it petty to think that good players can cheat, do you know about the DCI point system at all? Do you understand what happens to a player with 1900 points in constructed that loses to say another player with around 1700 points in a 32-K event? That's a good easy 30 - 32 point swing, in the 1700 point players advantage. If the 1900-point player then goes on to win, let's say, 2 more games before the Event goes to Top-8, and he plays against 1850 and 1820, then said players only gains 14 - 16 points from each player, ending the day with less points even though he won more matches than he lost.

    With some, that's not something they are willing to do. If they had to cheat to maintain their Points, they'll do it. Invites and Byes are major advantages in large events and they are all based on the DCI Point structure system. Those who can't always Top-4 or Win an event wills till push hard to have a winning record, hopefully only losing to players with a higher DCI Score than theirs because that player gets less points from you if they are higher.

    In the long run, most players may never be in a position where they deal with someone cheating, such as Ruel glancing at his opponent's deck as he shuffled. In fact, a lot of the times, players don't realize that they can call a judge over and get a player warned. If you feel your opponent is looking at your deck as they shuffle, call a judge. Get them to watch as the player finishes shuffling and possible making them shuffle differently. It's a way of cheating, and can be extremely powerful during a game in which you haven't played this player.

    I'm sorry if my first post may have offended some of you, but I say things straight-forward because that's just the way things are. You can't go into something blinded by saying "They are just too good to cheat." It doesn't matter how good you are when things are on the line. Players make sacrifices, and some are moral sacrifices. They can live with it if they're winning after all. They're reaping the rewards while you aren't.

    I've met too many arrogant pro's to say that I've never met a good pro that wasn't arrogant, except for Team Dead Guys (w/John Finkle, who was more an an honorary member during those years.) The Dead Guys were a pro-team based on the strict moral that good players shouldn't have to cheat, because cheating was by-far a huge problem early in the game, and they wanted to point out that they didn't cheat and were still Top-8ing all over the place.
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  • #42
    @Qasur: That was miles better, the arguments you present there sound based in fact, rather than irrational ranting. The statement "Some Pros have cheated" is a lot more sensible and will hopefully result in people watching even the apparent nice guys for foul play, so good point :).
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  • #43
    Qasur: your second post was very informative and highlighted some sad but true facts about competative magic. Just like some high profile atheletes get caught using steriods just to give them that tiny edge, some high profile magic players will cheat for such an edge.
  • #44
    Comments from the German page planetmtg.de (roughly translated):

    Quote from "NerfHerder" »
    We also saw this behavior from O. Ruel in Hasselt (standing directly at his side), but it seems that contrary to Malmö, Olivier noticed that a judge was focusing on him. [...] In Hasselt he shuffled long enough till no more lands were on top of the library. [...] That way, he shuffled his opponent all the way down to 4 cards.
    It's a pity that the judges there weren't courageous enough to interfere. Although they were informed, they prefered to show up in a conspicuous way during the next shuffling process. [...]

    Quote from "bupp" »
    In Dortmund I called the judge because of that. That resulted at least in a warning [...]

    Quote from "Dozer »
    The accusations aren't new but it's the first time that something is really done about it. [...]
    In this context I find it interesting that I never heard someone praise Olivier's playskill before. Think of Budde, Finkel, Kenji, Nakamura, Levy, Karsten, Wiegersma, even Antoine Ruel. I always hear other people talk about them being good players. In Olivier's case, that's always based on results. [...]

    Dozer is Hanno Terbuyken by the way.
    http://www.planetmtg.de/infos/news.html?typ=1&id=2456®ion=0&action=comments#comments

    In my opinion, that sounds really bad for Olivier.
    I guess when the judges were informed by the spectator they first looked up Olivier's history (that's a standard procedure) and when they discovered the previous Warning from Dortmund and maybe one of them remembered the incident from Hasselt, they decided that finally something had to be done...
    Last edited by Onisama: 7/23/2006 6:53:07 AM
  • #45
    Here's the thing....and I have seen this a lot. When another player grabs your deck to cut or shuffle, it can be done without seeing any card in the deck. Many times I have had an opponent cut my deck and they twist their wrist just enough to catch a color or card name. You can shuffle a deck without ripping the cards. If a deck has sleeves you can slip them together without bending them....shuffling them with the same result as ripping them.

    For a pro to glance at a players cards...even if it was just one card is cheating. I have told players that they are cheating when they bend their wrist a little too far. They act surprised but I think they are just shocked that I noticed. In an event with an REL as high as a GP.....that makes the offense worse....more punishable.

    Sorry....if see another players card while shuffling their deck, it's cheating.

    Harkius.....why in the hell would ever think it is ok to shuffle another player's deck face up!??!? That is just insane.
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  • #46
    I would like to recommend this article to Oli:

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/article/20060707a

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  • #47
    Quote from SapphireTri »
    Which in honesty Can be a mistake on his part as the way he shuffles. I wouldn't make this to be such a big deal untill the DCI announce what they plan to do.


    It is a possibility. However, the Universal Tournament Rules (Section 21) specifically say that "Shuffling must be done so that the faces of the cards cannot be seen." It doesn't matter if he's looking away or not, as if he shuffles so that the cards can be seen, there is the distinct possibility that he could look. Not to mention, it's still a violation of the rules by shuffling in such a way that the cards can be seen. And I really wanted to make sure this was clear to readers in the thread; shuffling in such a way that the cards can/could be seen is a violation of the rules. Always shuffle so that the cards cannot be seen (whether its your deck, or your opponent's). Note: yes, I know many players probably do it and think it's "okay", but really it's not at all okay. If you currently shuffle decks so that the cards could be seen, you really do need to stop doing it.

    Since this is a situation involving a DQ, and there will be a subsequent investigation by the DCI to determine what will happen, there's not going to be much public discussion of this by the DCI (simply because it can interfere with the investigation) for a while. If there is any comments made at all (outside of what may happen in the Player of the Year race if Olivier gets suspended).
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  • #48
    Ruel is like the Zidane of the Magic world... How tragic.
  • #49
    Hopefully people will stop treating this guy like an MTG god now.
  • #50
    If he did it intentionally, so he could gain advantage by seeing his opponent's deck, then suspend him. Plain and simple. People have been suspended for less. If it was unintentional (something I doubt, as someone of his caliber SHOULD have a fair knowledge of rules and such) then give him some other sort of sanction...because ignorance of the rules is no defense at all.

    What would happen if some random no-name guy had had this happen to them? Think on that for a moment.


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  • #51
    I have always objected to Magic players being called, "professionals".

    1) I would be interested to see the number of Magic players who make enough money to be able to sustain themselves.

    2) Alot of Magic players are young. This means alot of them lack a certain amount of maturity.

    3) A profession is often defined as something that is of use to society and/or requires specialized training (and often liable for their work). Doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc provided services that benefit society. Even athletes provide society with entertainment. Just because something makes you money, does not mean you should be called a professional.

    This post was not intended to offend anyone (though it probably will). I would just like people to realize that Magic players are just normal people. So saying something like, "I am disappointed because he is a professional" really does not make much sense when describing a Magic player.
  • #52
    There are two major Problems with this, as some said before:
    It is a HUGE advantage, ifyou know which bombs your opponent is sporting! Or which removal.
    Secondly: He did it before, and it is of course intentional, he would not have been DQ´d if they wouldn´t have been sure about it, because of his fanbase and the turmoil he can create!
    Everybody is able to shuffle a deck that his opponent cannot look at his cards. So, everybody should be able to shuffle without looking at the cards himself! That´s an easy thing to do, and if you want to be a pro, you have to work on your shuffling!
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  • #54
    Quote from Avatar of Kokusho »
    If he did it intentionally, so he could gain advantage by seeing his opponent's deck, then suspend him. Plain and simple. People have been suspended for less. If it was unintentional (something I doubt, as someone of his caliber SHOULD have a fair knowledge of rules and such) then give him some other sort of sanction...because ignorance of the rules is no defense at all.

    What would happen if some random no-name guy had had this happen to them? Think on that for a moment.


    As much as i like Olivier's play, I think a year's suspension and revocation of any player's club status he would have for next year is on order.

    This shouldn't be tolerated.
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  • #55
    Quote from Qasur »
    ... or accidentally drawing 2 cards a turn and quickly replacing the bottom one and going "Sorry, didn't mean to draw 2, they were stuck." This one happens a lot... and sometimes, yeah, it isn't purposeful. Other times, players do it a lot because they need savage TDS.
    I'm a bad player so i might be wrong... but isn't this a clear-cut case in which you call a judge. The opponent in your example even admits his/her mistake. I even remember that your obliged to call a judge in such a case. It's your responsibility to report it.

    On Oliviers Ruel's case: I think we'll have to wait and see until more information is revealed. I don't understand why some people are certain it was a mistake (If you've been pro for some time, you supposed to know how to shuffle), but i also don't understand the people that are certain he cheated (How are you sure, where you there?). We need more information on this first.

    I played against people that have probbebly cheated during the match (unprovable for me as a player), who wheren't pros (the only pro i played didn't need to cheat because i made an awful deck (and he wrote a report about it Frown )). If they'd become pro, would they stop cheating? Surely, not all of them, so there probbebly are cheating pro players. But i don't think the majority cheats, because i (so i guess others) wouldn't enjoy playing when i'd cheat (i think) and i play magic because i want to have fun.
    Last edited by AKARAT: 7/23/2006 9:26:30 AM
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