Off Topic: Land Ho!

  • #27
    Some valid points, but I'm not going 20 rounds over this subject. This is already degenerating. It is the reason I or many other authors don't respond in the forums. I thought I'd start getting more involved in the conversations lately, but I guess that was a mistake. I suppose I could add something we as writers aren't perfect or I was simply trying X, but I don't think that will matter to you. So convinced on the specifics and finding the black and white when we live in a grey world. I shouldn't even be writing this comment. Sure as heck, I'll find another comment how I spelled something wrong in my reply. Sigh.

    I will admit there are some truths to what you are saying. You know what. In the end, I really don't care that much.

  • #28
    Quote from Meyou
    Some valid points, but I'm not going 20 rounds over this subject. This is already degenerating. It is the reason I or many other authors don't respond in the forums. I thought I'd start getting more involved in the conversations lately, but I guess that was a mistake. I suppose I could add something we as writers aren't perfect or I was simply trying X, but I don't think that will matter to you. So convinced on the specifics and finding the black and white when we live in a grey world. I shouldn't even be writing this comment. Sure as heck, I'll find another comment how I spelled something wrong in my reply. Sigh.

    I will admit there are some truths to what you are saying. You know what. In the end, I really don't care that much.


    If you are trying to be a writer, or a card designer, you will be probably be criticized eventually. I tried to make my criticism of your article fair, and described the places/reasons I thought it failed.

    Just above, you said you were willing to listen, and now you're done a post later? Also, you never did tell us what percentage of Magic players of the whole you think are lazy. I think there's a reason you didn't. *shrug*
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  • #29
    MeYou, what you've written makes it seem like you confuse entitlement with disappointment.
    Please read some of what I say here, and excuse me if it is incoherent, but I feel cut by your words, and would like to tell you of this.

    Magic requires money. Almost all hobbies do. Being able to not afford it breeds disappointment. Those of us who cannot, because it is too expensive for us, still want to play it: we do not think the prices should be lower because they are unreasonable, we merely wish they were lower so we could play more.
    Not everyone who cannot afford to play is not hard working. Mistakes made in one's life, from when one was different, can and do hold over one for the rest of their lives. Circumstances may such that one who was running a business one day can see it fall apart in another; someone who was able to afford their hobby may find a recession leaving them living from hand to mouth- without time to even work towards better qualifications for a better job. Someone who has a criminal record and poor qualifications from a wasted youth will find finding work hard- but they still want to play, and they should be allowed to voice how disappointed they are that they cannot afford a hobby they love.
    You have overtime. I am honestly happy for you. Many other people cannot take overtime in their job- they do not have the luxury of a job which can entertain the idea. I work in a greetings' card store, every hour they have available for me. I would love even an hour more, but they cannot afford it. I am studying towards better things, but finding a job is hard with my current CV, and I feel sad I cannot anything more than a handful of singles.

    It is easy for the successful to tell those who are poor that they need to work harder, but this is not the only factor. Most jobs are found through word of mouth- requiring either luck or charisma. Those otherwise have to work towards degrees or a-levels in what little time they have, in a place they cannot study easily, with money worries, children, or other demands. Many have mistakes they cannot undo. It is the same with any hobby, not just magic.

    I do not speak for the majority of Magic players. Most are not in these situations. However, to use a broad brush as you have- saying the complaints of so many is simple gamer entitlement- is unfair to those of us who spend so much time working for enough to support themselves and their families.

    We all have needs. Play is one of them. I would have to stop drinking tea entirely to be able to buy another booster per week, and this is one of the few luxuries I can claim to afford. To feel sad about having to stop one is justified- and to wish to bemoan that is natural. Wizards makes a game at what is a fair price; I do feel the prices are reasonable for the majority of people. However, to me, it is expensive, and I have a right to feel dejected.

    One of my American friends earns a lot of money. He has a good job- but he has to work for many, many hours per day, and generally works 28 days a month. He does not bemoan the prices of the cards- they are in reach for him- but instead bemoans how his job leaves him with so little time to socialize or play. To quit his job would be terribly troublesome for him, so he cannot do that (please excuse me not going into detail here). He is in a similar boat to me- we both cannot play as much as we like. The only difference is the type of pressure we are under: his is temporal, mine financial.

    I do not think you are an ignorant person, MeYou. I feel you will have no problems in understanding my complaint here, and that you do consider people in such circumstances- those who have made mistakes that they are unable to correct, those who do not have the time or the money and cannot find themselves a way out of their situation, or who are working towards a solution but in the mean time feel so miserable- as an exception to your 'lazy' statement. However, I think you worded it very badly.
    If I am wrong in this assumption, I will again be disappointed- but I will be polite enough not to whine about it.

    Please, understand me: I understand this- play is not a fundamental need like eating or drinking- it is a secondary need like freedom from fear of being beaten when leaving the house, or freedom of speech. The ability to play a given way is a simple want: we are not entitled to it. However, it is very frustrating for something one enjoys to be taken from you.
    Boredom is the frustrating state of not having anything one wants to do. Doing things you do not enjoy because you are doing something else- even if you need to do it- leaves one feeling bored. Play-time that does not alleviate boredom is just as well spend on things which can improve you- but you are still bored, and miserable, even as you work. There is no entitlement to a type of play, merely misery at not being able to do so- and happiness/freedom from misery is a secondary need, as much as being able to call people lazy.

    I feel I am repeating myself a lot, so I will close now. Thank you if you read even a word. If you reply to me, I will try and respond tomorrow. If my opinions have annoyed you, please accept my apologies for that.
  • #30
    You can do some crazy things with lands, but every time they have tried to balance them, they have broken the format. I don't want lands to dominate a format like tolarian academy, but I'd like to see lands diversify.

    Thundering Canyon
    Land (R)
    tap Add R to your pool.
    When ~ etb, untap all mountains you control.
    At the end of the turn, destroy all mountains you control.

    A rush of destruction, then silence.

    Creeping Forest
    Land (R)
    tap, Add G to your pool.
    At the begining of your upkeep, put a vine counter on target land.
    Lands with vine counters are basic forests.

    Ghostly Canopy
    Land (R)
    At the beginning of your upkeep, return all lands exiled with ~ to play.
    Pay 1 life tap, Add G,B, orW to your pool.
    At the end of your turn, exile all your lands.
    EDH Commander
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  • #31
    I find myself really disappointed reading this article, and even moreso after subsequent posts by the author. What started as a very interesting article about card design, and a very interesting take on drawback duals, suddenly turns into a needlessly controversial rant about 'lazy people' complaining about the cost of magic.

    Not only irrelevant and pointless, it makes you sound like a jerk that got a soapbox and let it go to his head.

    Further, and this is probably a rant unto itself, posts you've written since point out everything that is wrong with American internet users, particularly players of this game: personal experience is suddenly fact, and if that fact is questioned, and a defense can't be mounted, they bail with a 'don't care anyway' snarky comment.

    Bottom line is this: if you're going to use your platform as a soapbox, be damned sure you're willing to back up your claims or keep your mouth shut.

    And before another strawman or personal attack gets tossed around, I'm 31, can afford any deck, am American, and think the prices on cards since mythics came about is ridiculous.
  • #32
    I'm stopping this argument by stopping. I've been down this road before. It becomes a battle of egos rather than rheoteric. It devolves into catty comments about pointing out anything I misspoke on or wrote unclearly. It won't matter how I explain it, defend it, or back-peddle. The conversation will continue pointing out the 1% thing I said wrong instead of trying to understand what I was saying rather pointing out my flaws.

    My sense is this is about the fact I called a group of players lazy. Some are lazy. It is being contorted to mean a blanket statement. I sure I will hear a snippet about something blanket statements blah, blah, and blah. The fact somebody wants me to state percentages boggles my mind. Seriously? Instead of it creating a conversation it has turned into a crusade to attack me. That's fine. I've been doing this for what three years now? I'm used to it. In that time, when things devolve, I've learned to just let it go otherwise anything and I mean anything I will say will just keep that wheel turning.

    Do I think all players are lazy?

    Do I think there are players who lack motivation?

    Do I think there are group of players out there who feel entitled?

    I know I shouldn't even be writing this response. There will only be another retort. If I reply, there will be another retort. Most likely a philosophy major pulling out terminology and blah, blah, blah.

    I write these articles cause nobody writes about these subjects. Some don't write them because it is a hot topic. Some are bound by corporate, but I think these things are interesting to talk about. Are we entitled as a consumer? I think so. I've thought it.

    This is no longer a conversation. I thought my last post might spur a conversation. It has continued with attacks on me. If I cared, I would have stopped writing a long time ago.

    I won't continue with this reposting. Even though I am reposting. Smile

    The truth is it is like trying to convince any one a political belief that believes Obama is a muslim terrorist. It won't matter what I say. They will still believe what he or she thinks. It is the same here. Frankly, I feel like I am having a conversation with Sheldon.

    Anyway, nice post drudge.

    I await the predictable reply.
  • #33
    Okay, I'll throw in. Your land designs explored undiscovered territory. I thought there was some real brilliance there. You expanded on your ideas, and it kept me reading. Then you went off about card costs. What the heck does that have to do with the price of bananas in Africa?

    Your reply actually seems to point to the other problem. If it's a hot-button issue akin to starting a flame war, what did you expect? It's not like you didn't know, your post suggests you've seen this all before. Common sense could have been applied here, and leave the talk of politics, religion, and class out of a discussion it had nothing to do with.

    Wouldn't you be offended and brought to debate a sacred cow you hold dear if it had been planted as a 'gotcha' in an unrelated article you had genuine interest in? You seem intelligent and reasonable, so it's bizarre your common sense seems so obtuse in this. Best of luck to you, though, you really had me interested up until then.
  • #34
    I enjoyed reading your articles, while I do enjoy your take on lands, it was an interesting read. Lands are indeed a confusing lot, when I was still new to magic I had the hardest time understanding why people played cards like Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion was so powerful because they were overcosted for what they did. I eventually realized what made them so powerful is they didn't cost CA and it was always a looming threat.

    The thing that kind of threw me off is you started ranting about MTG players, money, and laziness. I don't want to hear about that, it has nothing to do with the topic aside from MTG. What I want to hear as a reader is to learn some else's take on making mtg cards. If your going to write about that for nearly half the article can you keep it separate in terms of articles? A little bit of off topic as your column name suggests is fine, but I feel 50/50 is too much. I enjoyed your ideas for counterspells and commander. Anyways not my position to tell you want to do, just how I feel. Happy MTGing Overcome the stresses man.
  • #35
    There is more to getting a good job than hard work. There is a great deal of luck involved. I've worked hard my entire life, earning a greater than 4.0 gpa and everything. When the economy collapsed, my scholarships disappeared. The school I was attending cut them off. Now, I'm not saying that's why I don't have a great job. It is only a part of the equation. Lets look at the hundreds of thousands of college graduates who work extremely hard and STILL take out the garbage at Applebee's. You were incredibly fortunate. Some of us aren't.

    I treat Magic as a godsend. I played Yugioh competitively for years, graduating to judging high end events. That game is ridiculously expensive. 1 copy of some staples in that game could buy me play sets of Magics most expensive current cards. While maintaining the same gaming budget as I had in ygo, I've managed to build 5 capable commander decks, with some of the best cards in those categories. I couldn't have managed a single tournament in ygo with that money. The cost griping in this game is pointless. You guys have it great.

    EDH is a CASUAL format. Get with the program, or GTFO.
  • #36
    Hi, Meyou. It's me again.

    A couple of things:
    -One thing to be careful with when designing lands is that all decks have access to these lands. Every color and every faction will have access to whatever is printed on a land. If a land has an effect that clearly belongs in one color, then it's probably best as a card of that color.
    -Keep in mind that lands are physical entities that just sit there, so you run the risk of a flavorful disconnect when lands begin interacting with the mental component of the game (cards and libraries).
    -Players don't like to play with cards that outright give their opponents an advantage. There is a big difference between playing a powerful card with a drawback that is easily minimized or exploited, and playing a medium-power card that has a drawback that cannot be expoited.

    May I ask again what the design goals for this set were? Wasn't your goal to make enchantments a centeripiece of gameplay? How do these cards contribute to that goal? (Sidenote: How does political commentary contribute to the goal of expressing your set design process? I hate it when Maro comments about life in his articles, too.) It seems like you've regressed to just designing individual cards. I understand that life happens, but if you are committed to doing this, you need to re-orient yourself.
  • #37
    The lands came about and I thought it was worthy of an article. The other-half of the answers is I am stalling. Enchantments are a tough cookie to crack. I've made headway, but I don't want to talk about them until things are more solidified. The same with charge, except I'm getting much closer to the tail-end of charge cards. Focusing on charge will probably be my next article. Hopefully, I will have enchantments tackled by then.

    I'm going to keep these rare lands in my the set for now. I want to try them out when I playtest with them. I have a group willing to draft and what not when I am done. I'm curious to the reactions and the effects of the cards. This whole thing is an experiment to learn. Are they perfect for this set? Maybe not, but the goal here is foremost to learn something. As with anything, I can always rip them out later.
  • #38
    Lands are tricky. There's only so much design space, but I think your idea works.

    Do you mind if I give the mechanic a name? I suggest Newman. Why Newman? Because it's scry vs. scry.
    Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw.

    On phasing:

    Quote from bobthefunny
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    What's wrong with this picture?

    Quote from Donald »
    Quote from toadpatrol »
    Right now, my win condition with the two of them is Vish Kal, the blood arbiter, but I'm looking for a more reliable win condition that doesn't require attacking. With that said, does anyone know of any cards that are manaless sac outlets with may cause my opponent to die?

    Goblin Bombardment comes to mind. Also welcome to the forums. Smile
  • #39
    Since you asked so nicely, sure, why not. Hence forth, it will be the Newman mechanic.

    Clever by the way.

    Lands are tricky. There's only so much design space, but I think your idea works.

    Do you mind if I give the mechanic a name? I suggest Newman. Why Newman? Because it's scry vs. scry.
  • #41
    100% agree about the expense of magic cards point that you made here. But we have left the age of enlightenment for the age of entitlement. Its participation trophy mentality. "I exist, therefor I deserve". I busted butt through 11 years of higher education for my job. I came from very little, and have acquired very much through hard work, dedication, sacrifice, and biological/god-given talent. And while I recognize that the last part of that isn't something we control, success is available to all but the absolutely deficient. It just takes time, and its hard.

    I think you should reconsider your stance on welfare Meyou. The bottom line is that food, healthcare and shelter, even our most basic needs come to us only by the hard work of others. To expect to have these things for free is ridiculous. It seems to make sense... after all if one needs something to live one shouldn't have to pay for it. Right? Air is free, so why isn't the rest?

    The problem is its not the food that you're paying for. Its the hard work and dedication of other people who produce and then distribute the food that you are paying for. And I don't believe anyone has the right to demand that others work for them for free. When my tax money goes towards welfare for those that truly have no means to provide for themselves, I get it. That's compassion, and a necessary institution. It is when my tax money goes to those who have made bad choices, or simply don't/haven't tried that I have a problem. And I see it all the time. Everywhere.

    But if that wasn't bad enough, the sense of entitlement has grown out of control even beyond the necessities. Now there are people who testify before congress that their student loans should be forgiven! That HIGHER education (beyond the considerable free education they receive) should be free. Recently a woman testified that birth control be free. I agree that birth control should be available, but free? Why should anyone else have to pay for her CHOICE to be sexually active? Even if she does have a medical condition that requires her to take birth control, why should all those people who work 8-5 every day have to work for free to provide that for her? Why do they owe her anything?

    And what you have mentioned is the culmination of this ideal. People believe that they even have a right to entertainment. They have a right to cheap magic cards! Its insane! Its a market, a limited amount of resource produced at great expense (by Wizards and the people there) for the purpose of profit. The idea that there should be any limit to the prices is unbelievable.


    Get a job. Better yourself. Get a better job. Life is hard, no one owes you anything.

    Last edited by TigerStripedDog: 5/13/2012 12:34:53 PM
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