As for the methodology of control I think this is a problem in general. Not having true control will cause the format to stagnate way to fast and be completely void of invention or innovation. Of course this is a larger overview problem with the format and not something that is totally indicative of the meta just yet although we actually have all of the major players we just don't know exactly how everything fits, and how exactly these decks will look when the dust settles.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
What exactly do you define as "true control"? A deck that plays counter magic/removal until late game and they drop a threat and win in two turns like old 5CC? Even decks in legacy are starting to stray from deck types like that. Delver decks are extremely similar to that where they drop their threat (delver) turn 1 or 2 and use counter magic/removal to follow it to victory. It feels extremely different, but in a sense they are near the same. Modern is still huge for innovation.
The reason for the banlist being so extensive(or in your mind 'killing true control'), they don't want every deck devolving into every other deck. Nacatl? There was no reason to play any other aggro when nacatl/zoo was clearly the best. Every control deck would be running JTMS, Visions, etc, no exception. They are trying to make a varied and healthy format. It still working out the kinks in it, but so far they are doing a pretty good job.
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As for the methodology of control I think this is a problem in general. Not having true control will cause the format to stagnate way to fast and be completely void of invention or innovation.
I'm pretty sure this is just wrong, true control is essentially relegated to tier 2 at best in Legacy and when it was tier 1 during the MM era, it caused the format to stagnate pretty hard. The format is not going to stagnate without true control, Legacy has had plenty of innovation and is the second biggest format in all of magic and true control isn't the most competitive. The format will only stagnate if there are very few competitive decks that are viable which I'm not so sure that is true right now. The absence of true control isn't going to cause the format to stagnate anymore than the absence of fast combo.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
What exactly do you define as "true control"? A deck that plays counter magic/removal until late game and they drop a threat and win in two turns like old 5CC?
Exactly. Weisman control. It fits perfectly into the rock paper scissors mold of things.
Even decks in legacy are starting to stray from deck types like that.
Legacy has strayed away from true control because card draw isn't very efficient. Your better off just casting brainstorm for virtual card advantage and win before not having card advantage matters. This is the path that decks in modern are taking and it is quite far from control. Control(whether blue or black based) wins through attrition and card advantage these decks win with speed and efficiency.(similar to aggro decks)
Also LINK it is not quite tier 1, but it is a pretty good deck in legacy. It is real control.
Delver decks are extremely similar to that where they drop their threat (delver) turn 1 or 2 and use counter magic/removal to follow it to victory. It feels extremely different, but in a sense they are near the same. Modern is still huge for innovation.
Yes this is counterslivers or what is fallaciously named aggro-control. It is really just an aggressive deck that uses counterspells, discard, and removal to further it's aggro plan. True control relies on grinding games out, drawing more cards, and setting the board in some sort of soft locked state(such as thopter-sword) this is difficult to deal with and will inevitably win. These tempo decks actually feel less fair(caw-blade, faeries) and can be extremely necrotic on a format.
The reason for the banlist being so extensive(or in your mind 'killing true control'), they don't want every deck devolving into every other deck. Nacatl? There was no reason to play any other aggro when nacatl/zoo was clearly the best. Every control deck would be running JTMS, Visions, etc, no exception. They are trying to make a varied and healthy format. It still working out the kinks in it, but so far they are doing a pretty good job.
Except this is happening more. Historically midrange/tempo decks stunt the creativity of formats forming a rock vs all format were you play a deck or you play a deck that can beat that deck.(standard jund season, standard faeries season)
Polarity is necessary to keep the format from turning into a midrange/tempo snooze fest. If a format has a super aggro deck(can be combo at times), and a super control deck(like I explained earlier) then both work in conjunction to set the pace of the format. Now that zoo is not being played as much(boros might be able to fill this) tempo/midrange decks are always fast enough to get there. Without true control the format is so fast that midrange decks can't get there.
We have no strong hyper-aggro or hyper-control decks so the format settles in the middle leaning towards the aggressive side because of how magic works. Control is always technically at a disadvantage because they're are no wrong questions only wrong answers.
I'm pretty sure this is just wrong, true control is essentially relegated to tier 2 at best in Legacy and when it was tier 1 during the MM era, it caused the format to stagnate pretty hard. The format is not going to stagnate without true control, Legacy has had plenty of innovation and is the second biggest format in all of magic and true control isn't the most competitive. The format will only stagnate if there are very few competitive decks that are viable which I'm not so sure that is true right now. The absence of true control isn't going to cause the format to stagnate anymore than the absence of fast combo.
What deck was true control? He is a hint if it is running stoneforge mystic and swords it is probably not a true control deck. Again refer to the link above. That is a true control deck. True control decks or full control decks whatever you want to call them focus entirely on defense. They actually win on Defense(like the Pittsburgh steelers of the 70s)
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
The argument between what's "true" control and what isn't is completely subjective, and having an argument about what is/isn't control is impossible to resolve.
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
What deck was true control? He is a hint if it is running stoneforge mystic and swords it is probably not a true control deck. Again refer to the link above. That is a true control deck. True control decks or full control decks whatever you want to call them focus entirely on defense. They actually win on Defense(like the Pittsburgh steelers of the 70s)
Blade Control is the evolution of Landstill (a "true" control deck) the only thing that changed was that it actually gained a reasonable clock and thus could actually win matches without going to time. The original lists even played Standstill itself, something thats really only playable in "true" control decks because they aren't trying to apply lots of early pressure. Granted the lists now are somewhere between control and tempo and thats mostly due to the fact that MM is banned so the format sped up and they had to compensate. My point still stands though, Legacy is definitely not stagnant, there are plenty of interesting and viable decks, yet "true" control isn't really part of the metagame so I don't see how not having "true" control decks will make the metagame stagnant.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
The argument between what's "true" control and what isn't is completely subjective, and having an argument about what is/isn't control is impossible to resolve.
Yes but once you poke the bear that is Slipknot he cant seem to get back under control (see what I did there). I haven't read this much nonsense in a long time. How is random babble helpful to this thread? This back and forth has happened far to many times for most people to even care anymore. Look like another thread I will have to avoid do to people wanting to prove the ever present "someone on the internet is wrong!" theory.
While I appreciate the ideal of this bickering it would be better served someplace else.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Exactly. Weisman control. It fits perfectly into the rock paper scissors mold of things.
Legacy has strayed away from true control because card draw isn't very efficient. Your better off just casting brainstorm for virtual card advantage and win before not having card advantage matters. This is the path that decks in modern are taking and it is quite far from control. Control(whether blue or black based) wins through attrition and card advantage these decks win with speed and efficiency.(similar to aggro decks)
Also LINK it is not quite tier 1, but it is a pretty good deck in legacy. It is real control.
Yes this is counterslivers or what is fallaciously named aggro-control. It is really just an aggressive deck that uses counterspells, discard, and removal to further it's aggro plan. True control relies on grinding games out, drawing more cards, and setting the board in some sort of soft locked state(such as thopter-sword) this is difficult to deal with and will inevitably win. These tempo decks actually feel less fair(caw-blade, faeries) and can be extremely necrotic on a format.
Except this is happening more. Historically midrange/tempo decks stunt the creativity of formats forming a rock vs all format were you play a deck or you play a deck that can beat that deck.(standard jund season, standard faeries season)
Polarity is necessary to keep the format from turning into a midrange/tempo snooze fest. If a format has a super aggro deck(can be combo at times), and a super control deck(like I explained earlier) then both work in conjunction to set the pace of the format. Now that zoo is not being played as much(boros might be able to fill this) tempo/midrange decks are always fast enough to get there. Without true control the format is so fast that midrange decks can't get there.
We have no strong hyper-aggro or hyper-control decks so the format settles in the middle leaning towards the aggressive side because of how magic works. Control is always technically at a disadvantage because they're are no wrong questions only wrong answers.
What deck was true control? He is a hint if it is running stoneforge mystic and swords it is probably not a true control deck. Again refer to the link above. That is a true control deck. True control decks or full control decks whatever you want to call them focus entirely on defense. They actually win on Defense(like the Pittsburgh steelers of the 70s)
I love tempo decks, but I hate how they can wreck formats. Mid-range formats are the epitome of boring.
Yes but once you poke the bear that is Slipknot he cant seem to get back under control (see what I did there). I haven't read this much nonsense in a long time. How is random babble helpful to this thread? This back and forth has happened far to many times for most people to even care anymore. Look like another thread I will have to avoid do to people wanting to prove the ever present "someone on the internet is wrong!" theory.
While I appreciate the ideal of this bickering it would be better served someplace else.
Nope, as much as you may hate to admit it, hes right about this one. Resolving whats "control" or not is not impossible. The people that claim it is are just stubborn contrarians.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
To me, the defining difference between tempo and true control is whether each deck actually does or doesnt care about card advantage. Tempo seeks to win the game before card advantage ever becomes relevant. Control attempts to win a game by reaching a point where they will inevitably have more answers than an opponent can ever hope to overcome.
Tempo traditionally is just superior, since you dont give an opponent a chance to get back in the game when you get bad topdecks. It's also generally accepted that you'll never have he perfect answer to everything an opponent could play in a format without free counterspells. As much as i like decks such as teachings, youll inevitably face a strategy you just cant answer such as tron, or even caw blade.
Control could potentially be a tier 1 strategy, but currently there are no combos like thopter-sword that can make up for misplays, or save you from a few mulligans. The closest there is to this is gifts for iona.
One interesting thing i did find when playing tons of tempo decks in the format is that decks that can delay a game for long enough will almost always have a solid way to beat tempo. Tempo decks largely do not topdeck that well, and martyr proc is actually a really difficult matchup.
To me, the defining difference between tempo and true control is whether each deck actually does or doesnt care about card advantage. Tempo seeks to win the game before card advantage ever becomes relevant. Control attempts to win a game by reaching a point where they will inevitably have more answers than an opponent can ever hope to overcome.
Tempo traditionally is just superior, since you dont give an opponent a chance to get back in the game when you get bad topdecks. It's also generally accepted that you'll never have he perfect answer to everything an opponent could play in a format without free counterspells. As much as i like decks such as teachings, youll inevitably face a strategy you just cant answer such as tron, or even caw blade.
Control could potentially be a tier 1 strategy, but currently there are no combos like thopter-sword that can make up for misplays, or save you from a few mulligans. The closest there is to this is gifts for iona.
One interesting thing i did find when playing tons of tempo decks in the format is that decks that can delay a game for long enough will almost always have a solid way to beat tempo. Tempo decks largely do not topdeck that well, and martyr proc is actually a really difficult matchup.
also tempo decks can struggle with faster bigger aggro decks. As for the problem with control it is just a power level thing. My good cards cost 4 my opponents good cards are always less. I can cast a gifts or a teachings and my opponent can just play a storm spells or a splinter twin. Also modern card draw pretty much blows now that thirst is unplayable(and slow without mox) and AV got the axe. Control decks don't always rely on having the right answer, but having tons of answers via card draw. The more cards you draw the higher chance to have the right answers. Also deck building in control is actually a challenge. For aggro or tempo decks its this card is better than this card, this card attacks, this is burn spell that is damage or removal, this spell can counter anything that I need to for U. Control takes tight decklist, tight mana bases, and tight sideboard.(and tight play)
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I would love to see vision unbanned. It would give me a great reason to spash blue in Jund, for both rise // fall and the nut cascade from elf into vision. Also would allow me to cut confidant in favor of maindeck tombstalkers.
I played that deck competitively when the community cup was announced. Ue amount of unfair plays i could make in there was positively insane, and outside a shaky manabase, i couldnt find a bad matchup.
If visions gets unbanned, it would actually just make tempo decks better, since it's one of the few draw spells that works in tempo decks.
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I would love to see vision unbanned. It would give me a great reason to spash blue in Jund, for both rise // fall and the nut cascade from elf into vision. Also would allow me to cut confidant in favor of maindeck tombstalkers.
I played that deck competitively when the community cup was announced. Ue amount of unfair plays i could make in there was positively insane, and outside a shaky manabase, i couldnt find a bad matchup.
If visions gets unbanned, it would actually just make tempo decks better, since it's one of the few draw spells that works in tempo decks.
I agree that unbanning av isn't the answer. Unbanning artifact based control is the answer. I am having to go to 5 colors atm in my attempts to build something tier 1 in this meta, and I am not all too confident that this is going to work.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Decks that only play instants at the end of the opponent's turn make the format BORING and attendance reflects that. Aggrocontrol or tempo are much more enjoyable.
I'm pretty sure this is just wrong, true control is essentially relegated to tier 2 at best in Legacy and when it was tier 1 during the MM era, it caused the format to stagnate pretty hard. The format is not going to stagnate without true control, Legacy has had plenty of innovation and is the second biggest format in all of magic and true control isn't the most competitive. The format will only stagnate if there are very few competitive decks that are viable which I'm not so sure that is true right now. The absence of true control isn't going to cause the format to stagnate anymore than the absence of fast combo.
Doesn't Thalia just stop all Control decks dead? I know that I plan on playing Thalia with Hokori. That isn't very friendly for control.
I don't see how control is going to exist in a meta versus all the hate bears out there. Unless your a creature based control deck.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
That was during the MM era (besides counter top, but that deck is mostly dead, good riddance) which I pointed out already was extremely stagnant and a lot of people stopped playing. So yes "true" control decks have been tier 1 but most recently when they were, the format being really boring and stagnant so clearly not having "true" control does not necessarily mean that the format will be stagnant down the road.
Also I'm going to agree with Pein on this one, draw-go style decks tend to dramatically reduce attendance levels whereas creature based strategies tend to increase attendance levels. Just look at the past few years even, Faeries is one of the most reviled decks
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
twin(people such as P.chapin and LSV said this deck would suck after the banning yet it soldiers on respectively)
Pardon me, but I think you may have mistaken me for someone else.
This is the article where I suggest and predict Wild Nacatl and Punishing Fire will be banned, warning that Storm and Twin would both rise, noting that Splinter Twin and Seething Song should both be on the watch-list.
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Patrick Chapin "The Innovator"
Author of "Next Level Deckbuilding" and "Next Level Magic"
Pardon me, but I think you may have mistaken me for someone else.
This is the article where I suggest and predict Wild Nacatl and Punishing Fire will be banned, warning that Storm and Twin would both rise, noting that Splinter Twin and Seething Song should both be on the watch-list.
Are you saying they should be on the watch list? Or are you saying that they currently are on WOTC's watchlist?
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Decks that p**p out creatures and peole turning them sideways also makes the format BORING and attendance reflects that. (I don't know where you get the attendance data from, so I also state something unfounded as a statement ... that's the way to go, right?)
The beauty of magic is that there are a variety of decks and deck types. There should be place for draw-go style decks as well as turn-sideways decks and everything in between.
Diversity makes the format healthy, enjoyable and non-streamlined.
I, for instance enjoy playing all kinds of decks. Not just all the same streamlined aggrocontrol lists.
This is why I wish to see control style decks being buffed a bit. Just alone so that combo is being kept in check. So unbanning some control-essentials would be sweet - or the reprint of some control MVPs.
If you look at historical tourny data, when draw-go control is big attendence is down, but even when creatures are the in thing it doesnt effect attendence that much. When caw-blade was big, attendence dropped, when jund was big, attendence stayed steady, even rose a little because everyone could play the deck.
Pardon me, but I think you may have mistaken me for someone else.
This is the article where I suggest and predict Wild Nacatl and Punishing Fire will be banned, warning that Storm and Twin would both rise, noting that Splinter Twin and Seething Song should both be on the watch-list.
Thank you for calling him out on that.
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"Imagination is more important than knowledge." - Albert Einstein
Pardon me, but I think you may have mistaken me for someone else.
This is the article where I suggest and predict Wild Nacatl and Punishing Fire will be banned, warning that Storm and Twin would both rise, noting that Splinter Twin and Seething Song should both be on the watch-list.
my bad pchapin it was lsv and pv. I reread through some articles from like6-7 months ago and realized that. It was not that latest banning but the "combo" banning cycle that I was alluding to.
Ps please make a tier 1 control deck, because I believe it is outside of my talent level
If you look at historical tourny data, when draw-go control is big attendence is down, but even when creatures are the in thing it doesnt effect attendence that much. When caw-blade was big, attendence dropped, when jund was big, attendence stayed steady, even rose a little because everyone could play the deck.
in what world was caw-blade draw go? it ran a total of 4 counters most of the time....if anything it played more like a tempo deck. Dropping birds and putting swords on them isn't much different than playing a delver and waiting for it to flip when you think about it. The last time draw go was even half way viable was tsp-Lor standard. It quickly got overtaken by faeries once morningtide came out. Draw go has not even existed in extended for years. People think anything that runs counterspells is draw go and that is just wrong. That is like saying every deck that runs burn is a burn deck, or every deck that runs blue is a control deck. Attendance goes down when the format actually requires skill. It is sad but most magic players other than pros and ptq grinders want **** handed to them on a silver platter, and that **** has to be easy to pilot. Jund in standard was the most auto-pilot deck in the history of magic, and It might just end up being the same in modern if wotc keeps hating on control and combo.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
No, I mean a kid could play it and make it to day 2 in a big tourny.
Cost shouldnt come into question when talking about competitive play, but I know I am in the minority in that view.
in what world was caw-blade draw go? it ran a total of 4 counters most of the time....if anything it played more like a tempo deck. Dropping birds and putting swords on them isn't much different than playing a delver and waiting for it to flip when you think about it. The last time draw go was even half way viable was tsp-Lor standard. It quickly got overtaken by faeries once morningtide came out. Draw go has not even existed in extended for years. People think anything that runs counterspells is draw go and that is just wrong. That is like saying every deck that runs burn is a burn deck, or every deck that runs blue is a control deck. Attendance goes down when the format actually requires skill. It is sad but most magic players other than pros and ptq grinders want **** handed to them on a silver platter, and that **** has to be easy to pilot. Jund in standard was the most auto-pilot deck in the history of magic, and It might just end up being the same in modern if wotc keeps hating on control and combo.
So I take it you are one who believes aggro isnt skill intensive. Competitive aggro can be just as thought provoking as a solid control deck. You have to know when to drop what. In my opinion control is reactive and much easier to play then a proactive style like aggro. Combo is all about knowing what you need when and how to get there. It can be a trick now and then, but the more you play the deck the easier it becomes. The same cant be said for control OR aggro.
That all being said, Magic is a business first and foremost. They have to balance the skill intensity and attendence numbers. I am sorry you cant have a mind numbing, thought provoking format that everyone wants to play. In the end its all about money and what puts people in the tourny seats and pays the bills. Wotc has found true control isnt going to do that or a heavy combo environment. Complaining about it isnt going to make it so.
Polarity breeds diversity. Modern lacks Polarity.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
The reason for the banlist being so extensive(or in your mind 'killing true control'), they don't want every deck devolving into every other deck. Nacatl? There was no reason to play any other aggro when nacatl/zoo was clearly the best. Every control deck would be running JTMS, Visions, etc, no exception. They are trying to make a varied and healthy format. It still working out the kinks in it, but so far they are doing a pretty good job.
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I'm pretty sure this is just wrong, true control is essentially relegated to tier 2 at best in Legacy and when it was tier 1 during the MM era, it caused the format to stagnate pretty hard. The format is not going to stagnate without true control, Legacy has had plenty of innovation and is the second biggest format in all of magic and true control isn't the most competitive. The format will only stagnate if there are very few competitive decks that are viable which I'm not so sure that is true right now. The absence of true control isn't going to cause the format to stagnate anymore than the absence of fast combo.
Exactly. Weisman control. It fits perfectly into the rock paper scissors mold of things.
Legacy has strayed away from true control because card draw isn't very efficient. Your better off just casting brainstorm for virtual card advantage and win before not having card advantage matters. This is the path that decks in modern are taking and it is quite far from control. Control(whether blue or black based) wins through attrition and card advantage these decks win with speed and efficiency.(similar to aggro decks)
Also LINK it is not quite tier 1, but it is a pretty good deck in legacy. It is real control.
Yes this is counterslivers or what is fallaciously named aggro-control. It is really just an aggressive deck that uses counterspells, discard, and removal to further it's aggro plan. True control relies on grinding games out, drawing more cards, and setting the board in some sort of soft locked state(such as thopter-sword) this is difficult to deal with and will inevitably win. These tempo decks actually feel less fair(caw-blade, faeries) and can be extremely necrotic on a format.
Except this is happening more. Historically midrange/tempo decks stunt the creativity of formats forming a rock vs all format were you play a deck or you play a deck that can beat that deck.(standard jund season, standard faeries season)
Polarity is necessary to keep the format from turning into a midrange/tempo snooze fest. If a format has a super aggro deck(can be combo at times), and a super control deck(like I explained earlier) then both work in conjunction to set the pace of the format. Now that zoo is not being played as much(boros might be able to fill this) tempo/midrange decks are always fast enough to get there. Without true control the format is so fast that midrange decks can't get there.
We have no strong hyper-aggro or hyper-control decks so the format settles in the middle leaning towards the aggressive side because of how magic works. Control is always technically at a disadvantage because they're are no wrong questions only wrong answers.
What deck was true control? He is a hint if it is running stoneforge mystic and swords it is probably not a true control deck. Again refer to the link above. That is a true control deck. True control decks or full control decks whatever you want to call them focus entirely on defense. They actually win on Defense(like the Pittsburgh steelers of the 70s)
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Blade Control is the evolution of Landstill (a "true" control deck) the only thing that changed was that it actually gained a reasonable clock and thus could actually win matches without going to time. The original lists even played Standstill itself, something thats really only playable in "true" control decks because they aren't trying to apply lots of early pressure. Granted the lists now are somewhere between control and tempo and thats mostly due to the fact that MM is banned so the format sped up and they had to compensate. My point still stands though, Legacy is definitely not stagnant, there are plenty of interesting and viable decks, yet "true" control isn't really part of the metagame so I don't see how not having "true" control decks will make the metagame stagnant.
Yes but once you poke the bear that is Slipknot he cant seem to get back under control (see what I did there). I haven't read this much nonsense in a long time. How is random babble helpful to this thread? This back and forth has happened far to many times for most people to even care anymore. Look like another thread I will have to avoid do to people wanting to prove the ever present "someone on the internet is wrong!" theory.
While I appreciate the ideal of this bickering it would be better served someplace else.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I love tempo decks, but I hate how they can wreck formats. Mid-range formats are the epitome of boring.
Nope, as much as you may hate to admit it, hes right about this one. Resolving whats "control" or not is not impossible. The people that claim it is are just stubborn contrarians.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Tempo traditionally is just superior, since you dont give an opponent a chance to get back in the game when you get bad topdecks. It's also generally accepted that you'll never have he perfect answer to everything an opponent could play in a format without free counterspells. As much as i like decks such as teachings, youll inevitably face a strategy you just cant answer such as tron, or even caw blade.
Control could potentially be a tier 1 strategy, but currently there are no combos like thopter-sword that can make up for misplays, or save you from a few mulligans. The closest there is to this is gifts for iona.
One interesting thing i did find when playing tons of tempo decks in the format is that decks that can delay a game for long enough will almost always have a solid way to beat tempo. Tempo decks largely do not topdeck that well, and martyr proc is actually a really difficult matchup.
also tempo decks can struggle with faster bigger aggro decks. As for the problem with control it is just a power level thing. My good cards cost 4 my opponents good cards are always less. I can cast a gifts or a teachings and my opponent can just play a storm spells or a splinter twin. Also modern card draw pretty much blows now that thirst is unplayable(and slow without mox) and AV got the axe. Control decks don't always rely on having the right answer, but having tons of answers via card draw. The more cards you draw the higher chance to have the right answers. Also deck building in control is actually a challenge. For aggro or tempo decks its this card is better than this card, this card attacks, this is burn spell that is damage or removal, this spell can counter anything that I need to for U. Control takes tight decklist, tight mana bases, and tight sideboard.(and tight play)
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I played that deck competitively when the community cup was announced. Ue amount of unfair plays i could make in there was positively insane, and outside a shaky manabase, i couldnt find a bad matchup.
If visions gets unbanned, it would actually just make tempo decks better, since it's one of the few draw spells that works in tempo decks.
I agree that unbanning av isn't the answer. Unbanning artifact based control is the answer. I am having to go to 5 colors atm in my attempts to build something tier 1 in this meta, and I am not all too confident that this is going to work.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
There are times when the legacy meta shifts such that these are tier one: http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?type=Landstill%20Ubg/Ubgw&format=4
http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?type=Landstill%20UWx&format=4
and tom martel's deck from here http://www.channelfireball.com/decklists/grand-prix-columbus-top-8-legacy-decklists/
I don't see how control is going to exist in a meta versus all the hate bears out there. Unless your a creature based control deck.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
That was during the MM era (besides counter top, but that deck is mostly dead, good riddance) which I pointed out already was extremely stagnant and a lot of people stopped playing. So yes "true" control decks have been tier 1 but most recently when they were, the format being really boring and stagnant so clearly not having "true" control does not necessarily mean that the format will be stagnant down the road.
Also I'm going to agree with Pein on this one, draw-go style decks tend to dramatically reduce attendance levels whereas creature based strategies tend to increase attendance levels. Just look at the past few years even, Faeries is one of the most reviled decks
Pardon me, but I think you may have mistaken me for someone else.
This is the article where I suggest and predict Wild Nacatl and Punishing Fire will be banned, warning that Storm and Twin would both rise, noting that Splinter Twin and Seething Song should both be on the watch-list.
"The Innovator"
Author of "Next Level Deckbuilding" and "Next Level Magic"
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
If you look at historical tourny data, when draw-go control is big attendence is down, but even when creatures are the in thing it doesnt effect attendence that much. When caw-blade was big, attendence dropped, when jund was big, attendence stayed steady, even rose a little because everyone could play the deck.
lol, seriously? can you please present verifiable facts with your argument? otherwise it's just your boring opinion, albeit misguided and biased.
Thank you for calling him out on that.
You mean because it was easily affordable, right?
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
my bad pchapin it was lsv and pv. I reread through some articles from like6-7 months ago and realized that. It was not that latest banning but the "combo" banning cycle that I was alluding to.
Ps please make a tier 1 control deck, because I believe it is outside of my talent level
in what world was caw-blade draw go? it ran a total of 4 counters most of the time....if anything it played more like a tempo deck. Dropping birds and putting swords on them isn't much different than playing a delver and waiting for it to flip when you think about it. The last time draw go was even half way viable was tsp-Lor standard. It quickly got overtaken by faeries once morningtide came out. Draw go has not even existed in extended for years. People think anything that runs counterspells is draw go and that is just wrong. That is like saying every deck that runs burn is a burn deck, or every deck that runs blue is a control deck. Attendance goes down when the format actually requires skill. It is sad but most magic players other than pros and ptq grinders want **** handed to them on a silver platter, and that **** has to be easy to pilot. Jund in standard was the most auto-pilot deck in the history of magic, and It might just end up being the same in modern if wotc keeps hating on control and combo.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
No, I mean a kid could play it and make it to day 2 in a big tourny.
Cost shouldnt come into question when talking about competitive play, but I know I am in the minority in that view.
So I take it you are one who believes aggro isnt skill intensive. Competitive aggro can be just as thought provoking as a solid control deck. You have to know when to drop what. In my opinion control is reactive and much easier to play then a proactive style like aggro. Combo is all about knowing what you need when and how to get there. It can be a trick now and then, but the more you play the deck the easier it becomes. The same cant be said for control OR aggro.
That all being said, Magic is a business first and foremost. They have to balance the skill intensity and attendence numbers. I am sorry you cant have a mind numbing, thought provoking format that everyone wants to play. In the end its all about money and what puts people in the tourny seats and pays the bills. Wotc has found true control isnt going to do that or a heavy combo environment. Complaining about it isnt going to make it so.