The plan is to beat down with efficient creatures while stalling their plan. Fumespitter kills dorks, bob, lavamancer, steppe lynx, delver, kitchen finks, affinity, etc. Most decks that play creatures have something that is worth killing. I have been thinking of lowering the count to two though, either that or cut a persecution.
Mindcensor stops pod and scapeshift. Sometimes even stops tron. I expect those decks to compose a large portion of the meta. It also isn't dead against all other decks since it turns off fetches and flashes in as a blocker/trader.
Deathrite Shamen is awesome. No question, he hoses so many decks and is still awesome even when they don't use the yard at all. He does however have anti-synergy with KotR so I was thinking of cutting the knight for Finks. Thoughts on this?
As for the sideboard, I just threw it together and could use some real help and suggestions regarding this decks weaknesses and what can be done to fix them.
It's hard for me to provide individual suggestions at this point. When I have more time to be charitable to your list and to give it a thorough analysis I will do so, so consider this an I-O-U for now.
That being said, here is the list I have been working on for the past week:
My results have been very mixed, with some Valakut builds posing trouble while others have been more manageable, and pyroclasm/volcanic fallout being the biggest problems that I have yet to fully work around. You will notice that putrid leech and finks both serve to withstand a pyroclasm/fallout board-wipe, but I was also considering finding room for serra avengers in order to have more vial-friendly beaters that further cement my defenses against them. Instead I have included 2 lingering souls, since they can be flashbacked post-pyroclasm for some board presence. If the 21 creatures I run is too light to justify vials I will probably switch from lingering souls to serra avengers, perhaps cutting 1 finks for a third avenger as well. Advice here is welcome!
The miserly 1-ofs of darkblast, and sword of light and shadow (in the main) are - I think - justified by their adding to synergies that are already present (and for their re-usability).
SoLaS is the preferred sword for its creature recursion and lifegain, though I am open to meta-arguments against it's inclusion.
Darkblast compliments a fairly diverse removal suite (abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, path to exile, zealous persecution) and fills a necessary niche against tokens, grim lavamancers, opposing thalias (2 power first strikers hurt me) and stuff like snapcaster and vendillion clique.
As for the sideboard, I should think it speaks mostly for itself. Between grunt, extraction and dryad militant I have 6 grave-hate cards. Between canonist, militant (stops past in flames) and thalia I have 6 storm hate cards, and between revoker and pridemage I have 5 widespread utility functions.
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
I like your list, but GSZ is banned. I believe it was because of the old, Forest, Zenith, Dryad arbor play.
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-H. P. Lovecraft
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
Just curious, are you not playing 'goyf because of budget reasons? Or because of the seeming anti-synergy with Deathrite?
Other stuff: 21 land? With only two dorks that work all the time? Seems very low. No reason not to play Vault. Your mana base could support at least one colourless land. Plus you need an extra land anyways, so might as well let it act as a psuedo-spell.
So the idea is to flood the board with two drops and beat down? Hmmm... I'm not a strong enough modern player to offer anything more. Er, also keep in mind that everyone and their dog are going to be playing Abrupt Decay so vials may not live quite as long.
Oh, and your storm hate should be something that doesn't die to pyroclasm as they will be bringing those in vs you.
As for my deck, I was testing -3 KotR, -1 Zealous Persecution +3 Finks, +1 Deathrite and it seemed to be working fairly well. I just never used the ability of the knight he was always just a 4/4-5/5 for three mana. Decent beater but not amazing.
Was only playing no goyf due to the inclusion of the shaman, indeed. I take it that you consider the anti-synergy negligible?
21 land with 2 dorks, 3 vials, and 4 dorks that almost always work (8 fetches, not considering the fetches played by opponents), I thought it was alright. Have considered going up to 22.
I have anticipated a lot of abrupt decay and have been seeing basically none. The prevalence of 4+ drops in the format (and combo) made me assume its lack of presence was owed to that.
I'll take your word on the storm hate problem for sure. What might you suggest instead?
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Piloting:
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
I've only played about 15 matches with my deck but in those games I haven't had any problems with deathrite shaman interfering with the goyfs. As for land count, testing will prove the answer.
Storm really hates discard, maybe Wrench Mind? They really need enough cards in hand to go off. Obviously Rule of Law is awesome especially since they may be boarding out what bounce they have for sweepers and if they don't play any they won't be boarding it in. Would make for some interesting sideboard bluffs if there is a game three.
Well I brought this to a GPT and got crushed partly because I didn't have a proper sideboard set up. I only got the deck together that morning so I had a Temple Garden in my side... I was a little rushed.
I beat RWU Delver round 1. The MU seems decent, just need to keep playing dudes before they do and make them spend their time removing them instead of first playing creatures and then removing them.
Lose to mono red storm round 2. I had two Rule of Law in the side which is an auto win since he doesn't have bounce but I just didn't see it. He cast Reforge the Soul four times (with pyro) so I saw all three of my surgical extractions. He fizzled with three cards left in his deck but had slagstormed away all my guys. Last card in his deck was Past in Flames, he survived by casting simian spirit guide to block my 14/14 KotR. But really it was only luck on my end that he fizzled, this MU is really bad.
Round three I lost vs RWBu aggro. Sorta like RWU Delver but with figure of destiny and discard and bob. He splashes blue for the gifts package in the side and for St. Traft. This was a close match and could have gone either way. If he didn't have Pillar of flame for my finks every time I drew it...
Round four I lost vs Burn. Again, this MU sucks. We played a third and I lost that handily too. I didn't have time to get the Forge-Tenders for my SB so maybe those would have helped.
Round five I beat another RWU delver. This one went to three games. Again, play dudes, force them to answer them instead of playing their own dudes.
Overall the deck felt a little weak but that was my first time playing modern in a serious setting. Oh, deathrite shaman was awesome. The RWU players had to kill it even over goyf. It draws removal like you wouldn't believe and it wins games when it is unanswered.
I am thinking of switching Death Pact for Torper Orb, both are cards vs pod and twin, which do you think is better? Proactive or responsive? And as for splash damage, torper orb would be sided in vs Eternal Control and UW control. Pact would be sided in vs... not much I guess?
Also, is creeping corrosion actually worth it? I need something anti affinity but would something with more splash damage be better? Divine verdict? I dunno, help me out here.
Lots to analyze given your last post, so I'll be choosy with my input:
1) As concerning your maindeck changes I think you are correct in justifying kitchen finks over KoTR. 'Goyf is your beatstick, in any case. I also think 4 deathrite shamans is imperative as well so a good change there also.
2) As concerning your storm matchup, I would consider thalias in the board (they also provide a marginal slow-down against other strategies such as ramp). Thalias, in addition to extractions, provide a good buffer. They also come down a turn faster than rule of law. I have made room for 4 inquisition of kozilek and 3 liliana of the veil in my build, cutting vials and serra avengers which were clearly bad without vial. Those two changes have helped my game 1 results against combo, alongside 4x tidehollow sculler which has been an inclusion I have usually favored.
3) Creeping corrosion is something I considered at a time but I have found that my affinity matchup is not all too bad in the first place. Maelstrom pulses, abrupt decays, liliana, and turn 1 discard all slow them down. Phyrexian revokers out of the board shut down plating and tezzeret at a reasonably fast pace. Darkblast is also brutal here, killing pests and memnites for days. Not hitting ornithopter is a factor but other removal is available in that regard. Clearing the board in various ways makes liliana more likely to kill an etched champion where everything else fails.
Here is my present list, quite drastically changed from the first, for reference:
Changes I have considered at the outset are switching 1-2 maindeck cards to a copy of Elspeth, Knight Errant and/or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad for extra midgame stability, since the list seems to be moving in that direction with 6 mana dorks (deathrite is almost always live for at least 1-2 mana pumps in the early game) and the extra hand disruption / board clearing elements.
In other news, crazy nitwits playing dress-up have also convicted the Hamburglar, the Cookie Crisp Crook, and the Frito Bandito of sundry snack-related thefts.
Seriously, what about this strikes you as remotely worthy of discussion?
Elspeth and Sorin. I believe both to be some of the best walkers ever printed. I think if you could, I would do a 2/2 Damnation/Wrath of God split, even if just for consistency. Sweepers help a lot in the deck I have found.
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-H. P. Lovecraft
Well Canifex, I was testing a ton last night with a buddy and I saw your post this morning. Which is funny because I've added three Liliana and three IoK. Oh, Tidehollow Sculler too. Which is weird. So now my Side is totally different, I'll make the changes in the OP. Oh, kinda cool, green is now a splash in the deck. Oh and I took out the 4th deathrite shaman again because with goyf you really don't want two of them. And I'm playing lots of one drops anyway.
To the others: this is not a control deck, we play with over 20 creatures that come down early. Wrath effects are really not what we are looking for here. And Doran is how the deck started out but with Doran comes building around Doran which flops when Doran is removed or never drawn. If you don't build around him he is just a 5/5 that randomly screws or helps your opponent. Not really doing enough.
KotR was again in this deck but I've activated his ability exactly once. Otherwise he is just a dumb beater. Finks is harder to removal and gives a little buffer vs aggro and helps with dark confidant life loss.
Carnifex:I don't think you have enough power in your list now. Only card you have that is decent at attacking is putrid leech and that's not even a 4-of. If I were you I might swap the lingering souls out for something else, maybe finks, gofy or the last leech and an Elspeth.
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2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Arid Mesa
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Gavony Township
1 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Fume Spitter
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
Spells (10)
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Stony Silence
The plan is to beat down with efficient creatures while stalling their plan. Fumespitter kills dorks, bob, lavamancer, steppe lynx, delver, kitchen finks, affinity, etc. Most decks that play creatures have something that is worth killing. I have been thinking of lowering the count to two though, either that or cut a persecution.
Mindcensor stops pod and scapeshift. Sometimes even stops tron. I expect those decks to compose a large portion of the meta. It also isn't dead against all other decks since it turns off fetches and flashes in as a blocker/trader.
Deathrite Shamen is awesome. No question, he hoses so many decks and is still awesome even when they don't use the yard at all. He does however have anti-synergy with KotR so I was thinking of cutting the knight for Finks. Thoughts on this?
As for the sideboard, I just threw it together and could use some real help and suggestions regarding this decks weaknesses and what can be done to fix them.
That being said, here is the list I have been working on for the past week:
3 Marsh Flats
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Temple Garden
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Putrid Leech
2 Noble Hierarch
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Lingering Souls
1 Darkblast
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Dryad Militant
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ethersworn Canonist
My results have been very mixed, with some Valakut builds posing trouble while others have been more manageable, and pyroclasm/volcanic fallout being the biggest problems that I have yet to fully work around. You will notice that putrid leech and finks both serve to withstand a pyroclasm/fallout board-wipe, but I was also considering finding room for serra avengers in order to have more vial-friendly beaters that further cement my defenses against them. Instead I have included 2 lingering souls, since they can be flashbacked post-pyroclasm for some board presence. If the 21 creatures I run is too light to justify vials I will probably switch from lingering souls to serra avengers, perhaps cutting 1 finks for a third avenger as well. Advice here is welcome!
The miserly 1-ofs of darkblast, and sword of light and shadow (in the main) are - I think - justified by their adding to synergies that are already present (and for their re-usability).
SoLaS is the preferred sword for its creature recursion and lifegain, though I am open to meta-arguments against it's inclusion.
Darkblast compliments a fairly diverse removal suite (abrupt decay, maelstrom pulse, path to exile, zealous persecution) and fills a necessary niche against tokens, grim lavamancers, opposing thalias (2 power first strikers hurt me) and stuff like snapcaster and vendillion clique.
As for the sideboard, I should think it speaks mostly for itself. Between grunt, extraction and dryad militant I have 6 grave-hate cards. Between canonist, militant (stops past in flames) and thalia I have 6 storm hate cards, and between revoker and pridemage I have 5 widespread utility functions.
Thanks in advance for any criticisms.
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Edit: cut the GSZ for a finks, and the 1-of Dryad arbor for another forest.
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
Other stuff: 21 land? With only two dorks that work all the time? Seems very low. No reason not to play Vault. Your mana base could support at least one colourless land. Plus you need an extra land anyways, so might as well let it act as a psuedo-spell.
So the idea is to flood the board with two drops and beat down? Hmmm... I'm not a strong enough modern player to offer anything more. Er, also keep in mind that everyone and their dog are going to be playing Abrupt Decay so vials may not live quite as long.
Oh, and your storm hate should be something that doesn't die to pyroclasm as they will be bringing those in vs you.
As for my deck, I was testing -3 KotR, -1 Zealous Persecution +3 Finks, +1 Deathrite and it seemed to be working fairly well. I just never used the ability of the knight he was always just a 4/4-5/5 for three mana. Decent beater but not amazing.
21 land with 2 dorks, 3 vials, and 4 dorks that almost always work (8 fetches, not considering the fetches played by opponents), I thought it was alright. Have considered going up to 22.
I have anticipated a lot of abrupt decay and have been seeing basically none. The prevalence of 4+ drops in the format (and combo) made me assume its lack of presence was owed to that.
I'll take your word on the storm hate problem for sure. What might you suggest instead?
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
Storm really hates discard, maybe Wrench Mind? They really need enough cards in hand to go off. Obviously Rule of Law is awesome especially since they may be boarding out what bounce they have for sweepers and if they don't play any they won't be boarding it in. Would make for some interesting sideboard bluffs if there is a game three.
I beat RWU Delver round 1. The MU seems decent, just need to keep playing dudes before they do and make them spend their time removing them instead of first playing creatures and then removing them.
Lose to mono red storm round 2. I had two Rule of Law in the side which is an auto win since he doesn't have bounce but I just didn't see it. He cast Reforge the Soul four times (with pyro) so I saw all three of my surgical extractions. He fizzled with three cards left in his deck but had slagstormed away all my guys. Last card in his deck was Past in Flames, he survived by casting simian spirit guide to block my 14/14 KotR. But really it was only luck on my end that he fizzled, this MU is really bad.
Round three I lost vs RWBu aggro. Sorta like RWU Delver but with figure of destiny and discard and bob. He splashes blue for the gifts package in the side and for St. Traft. This was a close match and could have gone either way. If he didn't have Pillar of flame for my finks every time I drew it...
Round four I lost vs Burn. Again, this MU sucks. We played a third and I lost that handily too. I didn't have time to get the Forge-Tenders for my SB so maybe those would have helped.
Round five I beat another RWU delver. This one went to three games. Again, play dudes, force them to answer them instead of playing their own dudes.
Overall the deck felt a little weak but that was my first time playing modern in a serious setting. Oh, deathrite shaman was awesome. The RWU players had to kill it even over goyf. It draws removal like you wouldn't believe and it wins games when it is unanswered.
Changes as follows:
Main: -3 KotR, -1 Zealous Persecution, +1 Deathrite Shaman, +3 Kitchen Finks
Sideboard: -2 Extirpate, -1 Aven Mindcensor, -2 Kitchen Finks, +3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Rule of Law
I am thinking of switching Death Pact for Torper Orb, both are cards vs pod and twin, which do you think is better? Proactive or responsive? And as for splash damage, torper orb would be sided in vs Eternal Control and UW control. Pact would be sided in vs... not much I guess?
Also, is creeping corrosion actually worth it? I need something anti affinity but would something with more splash damage be better? Divine verdict? I dunno, help me out here.
1) As concerning your maindeck changes I think you are correct in justifying kitchen finks over KoTR. 'Goyf is your beatstick, in any case. I also think 4 deathrite shamans is imperative as well so a good change there also.
2) As concerning your storm matchup, I would consider thalias in the board (they also provide a marginal slow-down against other strategies such as ramp). Thalias, in addition to extractions, provide a good buffer. They also come down a turn faster than rule of law. I have made room for 4 inquisition of kozilek and 3 liliana of the veil in my build, cutting vials and serra avengers which were clearly bad without vial. Those two changes have helped my game 1 results against combo, alongside 4x tidehollow sculler which has been an inclusion I have usually favored.
3) Creeping corrosion is something I considered at a time but I have found that my affinity matchup is not all too bad in the first place. Maelstrom pulses, abrupt decays, liliana, and turn 1 discard all slow them down. Phyrexian revokers out of the board shut down plating and tezzeret at a reasonably fast pace. Darkblast is also brutal here, killing pests and memnites for days. Not hitting ornithopter is a factor but other removal is available in that regard. Clearing the board in various ways makes liliana more likely to kill an etched champion where everything else fails.
Here is my present list, quite drastically changed from the first, for reference:
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Kitchen Finks
3 Putrid Leech
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Lingering Souls
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Darkblast
1 Flex Slot (right now it's a Go For the Throat)
Changes I have considered at the outset are switching 1-2 maindeck cards to a copy of Elspeth, Knight Errant and/or Sorin, Lord of Innistrad for extra midgame stability, since the list seems to be moving in that direction with 6 mana dorks (deathrite is almost always live for at least 1-2 mana pumps in the early game) and the extra hand disruption / board clearing elements.
Thoughts?
BW(G) Junkblade - Legacy
BW Vial Deadguy - Legacy
UWR Geist - Modern
UR(B) Delver - Modern
W(G) Death & Taxes - Modern
Oona, Queen of the Fae - EDH
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
To the others: this is not a control deck, we play with over 20 creatures that come down early. Wrath effects are really not what we are looking for here. And Doran is how the deck started out but with Doran comes building around Doran which flops when Doran is removed or never drawn. If you don't build around him he is just a 5/5 that randomly screws or helps your opponent. Not really doing enough.
KotR was again in this deck but I've activated his ability exactly once. Otherwise he is just a dumb beater. Finks is harder to removal and gives a little buffer vs aggro and helps with dark confidant life loss.
Carnifex:I don't think you have enough power in your list now. Only card you have that is decent at attacking is putrid leech and that's not even a 4-of. If I were you I might swap the lingering souls out for something else, maybe finks, gofy or the last leech and an Elspeth.