So I wanted to play an angel deck in Standard, but Angels are pretty expensive, and there are so many fun cards to play in Modern, so I started playing Modern this week. $200 later, I've put together a deck that uses artifacts to ramp, and then lifegain/card draw and finally angels. It doesn't quite work, though I have won a few games here and there.
I'm trying to figure out what ratios I should be playing. I want to avoid splashing green, if possible. What ratios should I use? Should I back off on the ramp and use more cards to slow down my opponent? General advice?
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
So I wanted to play an angel deck in Standard, but Angels are pretty expensive, and there are so many fun cards to play in Modern, so I started playing Modern this week. $200 later, I've put together a deck that uses artifacts to ramp, and then lifegain/card draw and finally angels. It doesn't quite work, though I have won a few games here and there.
I'm trying to figure out what ratios I should be playing. I want to avoid splashing green, if possible. What ratios should I use? Should I back off on the ramp and use more cards to slow down my opponent? General advice?
out of that list of artifacts, I'd only consider mindstone and coldsteel heart. You could likewise consider any of the ravnica signets such as boros signet. They don't look like much, but dropping one t2 allows you a baneslayer angel t4 vs. t5. Makes a large difference. I'd run maybe 22/23 lands up to to 4 rampers. Mana is important in a top heavy deck like this!
Path to exile and oblivion ring make good early useful removal. However, What is an angel deck without some religious beat down? Angels are present at the day of judgement or wrath of god, aren't they? That same ramp will allow you to drop these spells on t3 which is when a lot of aggro decks plan on finishing tap dancing all over your life total. The religious fervor fits into you game plan and keeps you alive. Angels aren't really what you call a tribal creature. They're more of what I would call finishers, though if you want to run tribal angels, that's fine. Just don't run too many...
Now, that said, you wanted to play artifacts and you want to survive creature assaults? well, angels to consider playing that don't have to wait until the cows come home to play.
There are others you could play, of course, especially some really cool ultra high end ones. However, I really wouldn't want to play with too many of them for the simple reason that you need them sooner rather than later. If you can actually get metal craft online, though, the indomitable will make life royally miserable for your opponents. If you can't, then the other angels are probably better. Emeria angel is especially mean in a deck full of fetchlands!
I don't know about artifact card draw in here. However, I would give serious consideration to a bit of early life gain and consider timely reinforcements (meh) or survival cache (begging to be used somewhere!) for your card advantage that isn't based on the others.
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I tried fixing up your deck the best i could using only the cards you mentioned, but I had quite a bit of difficulty. Honestly, the deck needs a total revamp to work. Regardless, here's my fixerupper:
I tried fixing up your deck the best i could using only the cards you mentioned, but I had quite a bit of difficulty. Honestly, the deck needs a total revamp to work. Regardless, here's my fixerupper:
I have quite a few other cards, what would you do?
And why did you choose what you did? I've played angel decks before, and I have found Linvala is pretty weak for an angel, yet everyone loves her? And why remove Cavern of Souls?
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I think it's a great card, but in an angel deck, you usually only end up with one or two angels on the field, and the individual damage of each angel is pretty high and many of them have vigilance. It's not uncommon for me to play Gisela, then True Conviction, and swing for 20. Sublime Archangel is for weenie decks with lots of small creatures, not one or two big ones.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I can honestly think of a ton of ways to make that better in modern. I'm not sure how competitive it will be, but we can definitely make it better. The biggest problem is that this deck is waaay on the high cmc of things and you have no early ways of stalling, or at least not good ones. If you want lifgain, then I would suggest martyr of sands, perhaps? Nice common, drop it t2 only, gain a lot of life. Makes combos life hell and aggro, too. Also makes the survival cache option more viable.
Beyond that, though, we need to streamline it. I really think that baneslayer angel is the best angel in a vacuum here.
You already know you need mana acceleration, you also need cantrips to get you through the deck a bit faster. Wall of omens helps a lot against aggro and draws a card. You don't generally mind if you blow it up, either. Mind stone is the best mana acceleration you can get. You don't need the white, and the late game card draw is very good for you.
I would NOT run cards like true conviction. I know it seems really cool, but it's a ton better if you have multiple creatures out. You'll usually have maybe 1 or 2, which really doesn't make it seem worth it.
So maybe a list like this. I'm going to theme it control with a heavy anti creature theme (you won't do too well against other strategies, I fear. If you get an emeria online and can stall control long enough, you might win that way ).
Not as many artifacts as you wanted. On the other hand, it should keep your butt alive long enough to go angelic on their butts. If you find any part of it excessive at one part or another, then you could certainly switch it out!
I can honestly think of a ton of ways to make that better in modern. I'm not sure how competitive it will be, but we can definitely make it better. The biggest problem is that this deck is waaay on the high cmc of things and you have no early ways of stalling, or at least not good ones. If you want lifgain, then I would suggest martyr of sands, perhaps? Nice common, drop it t2 only, gain a lot of life. Makes combos life hell and aggro, too. Also makes the survival cache option more viable.
I've considered Wall of Omens (even though Angelic Wall is more thematic). I considered Survival Cache as well, but I prefer Pulse of the Fields, as the first cards works better when you're winning, and the second when you're losing, and any angel deck is going to spend to first few turns losing.
What I really want is to play with Avacyn, Sigarda, and Gisela. I think Baneslayer is extremely overrated - it's good because it's cheap, but if you put True Conviction out, it's advantages disappear. Good in a general deck is not the same as good in an angel deck: the deck is designed to allow you to play the big fatties, so being cost-effective is not really an advantage.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Point 1. If you had looked at the list, you would have noticed 4 martyr of sands. It's not an angel, but it will keep you alive for a lot longer than pulse of the fields. With 4 of these, then survival cache becomes far better than pulse of the fields.
Point 2. You are SLOW. If you really want to play high cmc multicolored angels, then I'd suggest by starting with red/white reanimator list. White does pack some pretty solid reanimator things, but red gives you faithless looting and firemane angel. If you really want to cast them, then you'd better lose those 4 mindstone, and add in some boros signet and selesnya signet. they're about the best ramp you'll get without going heavy into green ramping spells for lands.
As I stated before, you should not be playing a card like true conviction. it is very much win more. If you have an 8/8 avacyn out, do you really need to give it double strike and lifelink? If you can't win with that, then you're boned no matter what.
Sigarda and gisela are both very good, but baneslayer is far more cost effective. She wasn't called walletslayer for no reason, trust me on that. to be blunt, avacyn is just not good enough at her cmc to drop. I'd many times rather play Akroma, Angel of wrath.
the deck is designed to allow you to play the big fatties, so being cost-effective is not really an advantage.
being cost effective is always to your advantage. You do not have near enough ramp to make playing cards like True Conviction viable in Modern, but I can see that you are in love with the idea of this deck. It happens to all of us, but I really think it is causing you to not see the reality of the Modern metagame. Perhaps you could try a tried and true ramp strategy like Tron and signets and Expedition Map.
Point 1. If you had looked at the list, you would have noticed 4 martyr of sands. It's not an angel, but it will keep you alive for a lot longer than pulse of the fields. With 4 of these, then survival cache becomes far better than pulse of the fields.
Point 2. You are SLOW. If you really want to play high cmc multicolored angels, then I'd suggest by starting with red/white reanimator list. White does pack some pretty solid reanimator things, but red gives you faithless looting and firemane angel. If you really want to cast them, then you'd better lose those 4 mindstone, and add in some boros signet and selesnya signet. they're about the best ramp you'll get without going heavy into green ramping spells for lands.
As I stated before, you should not be playing a card like true conviction. it is very much win more. If you have an 8/8 avacyn out, do you really need to give it double strike and lifelink? If you can't win with that, then you're boned no matter what.
Sigarda and gisela are both very good, but baneslayer is far more cost effective. She wasn't called walletslayer for no reason, trust me on that. to be blunt, avacyn is just not good enough at her cmc to drop. I'd many times rather play Akroma, Angel of wrath.
I'm running a white-control deck at the moment, and I use angels in place of Sun Titans - Akroma, Baneslayer and Herald of War currently. I used to have Martyr of Sands in there, but I often drew her while only having one or two cards in my hand, limiting her usefulness. I'm surprised by how Eldrazi can be considered a viable deck (even good) while Angels are too expensive - at half the cost.
I see what you say about True Conviction.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I'm surprised by how Eldrazi can be considered a viable deck (even good) while Angels are too expensive - at half the cost.
Lack of colored man in the casting cost is the biggest factor, and Annihilator helps too. Tron decks win on the backs of Eldrazi and Karn, both of which can be cast solely from Tron mana so they never have color problems. Add that to the tempo swing from a single big Eldrazi attack is just devistating, even if they do not connect.
Land:
Ramping Artifacts:
Card Draw:
Spells:
thinking about adding Ghostly Prison
Creatures:
a bunch of Angels
Elesh Norn?
I'm trying to figure out what ratios I should be playing. I want to avoid splashing green, if possible. What ratios should I use? Should I back off on the ramp and use more cards to slow down my opponent? General advice?
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
out of that list of artifacts, I'd only consider mindstone and coldsteel heart. You could likewise consider any of the ravnica signets such as boros signet. They don't look like much, but dropping one t2 allows you a baneslayer angel t4 vs. t5. Makes a large difference. I'd run maybe 22/23 lands up to to 4 rampers. Mana is important in a top heavy deck like this!
Path to exile and oblivion ring make good early useful removal. However, What is an angel deck without some religious beat down? Angels are present at the day of judgement or wrath of god, aren't they? That same ramp will allow you to drop these spells on t3 which is when a lot of aggro decks plan on finishing tap dancing all over your life total. The religious fervor fits into you game plan and keeps you alive. Angels aren't really what you call a tribal creature. They're more of what I would call finishers, though if you want to run tribal angels, that's fine. Just don't run too many...
Now, that said, you wanted to play artifacts and you want to survive creature assaults? well, angels to consider playing that don't have to wait until the cows come home to play.
There are others you could play, of course, especially some really cool ultra high end ones. However, I really wouldn't want to play with too many of them for the simple reason that you need them sooner rather than later. If you can actually get metal craft online, though, the indomitable will make life royally miserable for your opponents. If you can't, then the other angels are probably better. Emeria angel is especially mean in a deck full of fetchlands!
I don't know about artifact card draw in here. However, I would give serious consideration to a bit of early life gain and consider timely reinforcements (meh) or survival cache (begging to be used somewhere!) for your card advantage that isn't based on the others.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
12 Plains
4 Reliquary Tower
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Ramping Artifacts - 13
4 Pristine Talisman
4 Mind's Stone
4 Expedition Map
1 Mox Opal
1 Mind's Eye
3 Well of Lost Dreams
Spells - 25
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Faith's Shield
4 Path to Exile
4 Pulse of the Plains
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Day of Judgment
2 Wrath of God
1 True Conviction
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Pristine Angel
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Sunblast Angel
1 Twilight Shepherd
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Voice of All
But I have too many cards. What should I lose?
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
4 Pristine Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Path to Exile
4 Pristine Talsiman
4 Pulse of the Fields
4 Wrath of God
3 Well of Lost Dreams
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
20 Plains
Check out my expected lands table at:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Airj6A6lYAz_dG05T2JETnVTak1xQ0tqOHNSdEJLWVE&hl=en_US#gid=0
I have quite a few other cards, what would you do?
And why did you choose what you did? I've played angel decks before, and I have found Linvala is pretty weak for an angel, yet everyone loves her? And why remove Cavern of Souls?
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
1 Angel of Jubilation
3 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
3 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
4 Herald of War
3 Sigarda, Host of Herons
3 Somberwald Sage
6 Forest
1 Mountain
6 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Faith's Shield
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Rampant Growth
3 True Conviction
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I think it's a great card, but in an angel deck, you usually only end up with one or two angels on the field, and the individual damage of each angel is pretty high and many of them have vigilance. It's not uncommon for me to play Gisela, then True Conviction, and swing for 20. Sublime Archangel is for weenie decks with lots of small creatures, not one or two big ones.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I can honestly think of a ton of ways to make that better in modern. I'm not sure how competitive it will be, but we can definitely make it better. The biggest problem is that this deck is waaay on the high cmc of things and you have no early ways of stalling, or at least not good ones. If you want lifgain, then I would suggest martyr of sands, perhaps? Nice common, drop it t2 only, gain a lot of life. Makes combos life hell and aggro, too. Also makes the survival cache option more viable.
Beyond that, though, we need to streamline it. I really think that baneslayer angel is the best angel in a vacuum here.
You already know you need mana acceleration, you also need cantrips to get you through the deck a bit faster. Wall of omens helps a lot against aggro and draws a card. You don't generally mind if you blow it up, either. Mind stone is the best mana acceleration you can get. You don't need the white, and the late game card draw is very good for you.
I would NOT run cards like true conviction. I know it seems really cool, but it's a ton better if you have multiple creatures out. You'll usually have maybe 1 or 2, which really doesn't make it seem worth it.
So maybe a list like this. I'm going to theme it control with a heavy anti creature theme (you won't do too well against other strategies, I fear. If you get an emeria online and can stall control long enough, you might win that way ).
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
20 Plains
Creatures (14)
4 Wall of Omens
4 Baneslayer Angel
4 Martyr of Sands
2 Emeria Angel
4 Mind stone
4 Path to Exile
4 Wrath of God
4 Survival Cache
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Pulse of the fields
Not as many artifacts as you wanted. On the other hand, it should keep your butt alive long enough to go angelic on their butts. If you find any part of it excessive at one part or another, then you could certainly switch it out!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
I've considered Wall of Omens (even though Angelic Wall is more thematic). I considered Survival Cache as well, but I prefer Pulse of the Fields, as the first cards works better when you're winning, and the second when you're losing, and any angel deck is going to spend to first few turns losing.
What I really want is to play with Avacyn, Sigarda, and Gisela. I think Baneslayer is extremely overrated - it's good because it's cheap, but if you put True Conviction out, it's advantages disappear. Good in a general deck is not the same as good in an angel deck: the deck is designed to allow you to play the big fatties, so being cost-effective is not really an advantage.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Point 2. You are SLOW. If you really want to play high cmc multicolored angels, then I'd suggest by starting with red/white reanimator list. White does pack some pretty solid reanimator things, but red gives you faithless looting and firemane angel. If you really want to cast them, then you'd better lose those 4 mindstone, and add in some boros signet and selesnya signet. they're about the best ramp you'll get without going heavy into green ramping spells for lands.
As I stated before, you should not be playing a card like true conviction. it is very much win more. If you have an 8/8 avacyn out, do you really need to give it double strike and lifelink? If you can't win with that, then you're boned no matter what.
Sigarda and gisela are both very good, but baneslayer is far more cost effective. She wasn't called walletslayer for no reason, trust me on that. to be blunt, avacyn is just not good enough at her cmc to drop. I'd many times rather play Akroma, Angel of wrath.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I'm running a white-control deck at the moment, and I use angels in place of Sun Titans - Akroma, Baneslayer and Herald of War currently. I used to have Martyr of Sands in there, but I often drew her while only having one or two cards in my hand, limiting her usefulness. I'm surprised by how Eldrazi can be considered a viable deck (even good) while Angels are too expensive - at half the cost.
I see what you say about True Conviction.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!