BGS grading, while highly regarded in the magic community does not employ a grading system that aligns with the average magic
player's expectations on condition.
This is precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about.
Huge border edge whitening on the top. Light edge wear on the right edge. This card would get
SP if it was coming out of channelfireball or starcitygames.
The Average magic player looks primarily at two things: Edge whitening and corner whitening.
Most players I know will instantly disqualify a card from being NM if there is edge or border whitening.
I sell cards occasionally, and if I sold a card with two dings of whitening edgewear at the top as Near Mint, my customers would want their money back.
This BGS 9.0 is a starcitygames Slightly Played Condition!
The crux is that the wear is visible. It only got a 9.0 subgrade because the Centering, Corner, and surface got 9.5 subgrades
I feel that you're making a lot of assumptions. First, unless you work as a grader for SCG or CF, I don't think you should claim they would grade it as any particular condition.
Second, "huge border edge whitening" definitely feels like an overstatement. The two areas at the top are all I see. I don't see wear on the right edge.
Finally, NM means NEAR mint. Most definitions I've seen allow for one or two small defects on a card. (Some definitions are even more liberal than that.) The picture is somewhat blurry, but from what I can see, the card is nearly immaculate except for the two small dings at the top. That definitely qualifies for NM in my book. The grade appears justified to me.
the fact is the whitening is visible to the average player. Look at the closeups
That is instant disqualification from NM. SCG and CFG both say on their grading criteria say SP contains visible wear
Each service who provides a word grade (like mint or near mint) has their own definitions of these terms. Go read the BGS website under Grading Criteria and How Final Grades are Determined.
Grading this Black Lotus overall 9/10 seems perfectly reasonable in my opinion, having only 1 obvious flaw. But I would also grade it SP using SCG's scale. Troll and Toad would rate this NM.
This is why I get high quality pictures/scans for cards over $10 or whenever possible. The picture of that lotus is not very good.
I've heard it said on these forums that BGS is "better" than PSA because they are stricter with their gradings, and that there are fewer BGS 10s than PSA 10s.
But the point I'm making here is important because the market places a tremendous premium on BGS 10 vs BGS 9.5 vs BGS 9.0 Those grades make a huge difference in price for
alpha, beta, UL, Legends, AQ, AN, etc.
We magic players do not like to see visible whitening on our edges and corners. AT ALL. White corners, white edges = instant disqualification from NM. And that beta lotus is an example where you have flawless corners, centering, and surface, but visible edge whitening. The high score on those other three grades pull up the overall grade to a 9.0
And a surprising real world consequence to the people here on market street is that you might pay a HUGE premium price for the BGS 9.0 card, and get a card considered SP from SCG.
I'm not saying BGS is bad. Im not saying there's anything better. But the high end collector should at least be fore-warned, you may not be getting what you think you're getting.
My advice to the high end collector is make sure what you want aligns with the actual card sitting inside the case.
If I ever paid for a BGS 9.0 card, I sure as hell wouldn't want to end up buying a card considered SP by the greater magic community.
Ummmm, they graded edges at 8.5. That seems appropriate. If you think that that amount of whitening makes the card infinitely worse you're mistaken. What subgrade would you give it? 7? 6? I think it's fine at 8.5. As for the collector community and such, they know what they're getting they aren't blind. Also, it doesn't matter what the greater magic community thinks it's what YOU yourself think. If you think the lotus you posted about is worth forking 18 grand over and you decide to spend 18 grand on that lotus that's your prerogative.
Also, the very good centering, surface, and corners more than make up for the tiny bit of edgewear. That lotus is nigh perfect in those regards. Finding a store that would grade that lotus SP is likely not possible especially in that BGS 9 case. You're looking at a card from beta that just has a tiny bit of edge wear but in every other aspect is near flawless. It's hard to find a lotus in this good of condition from beta with 3 9.5 subscores. If I was able to burn 18 grand without consequence I would buy this card. But I'm poor/can't blow 18 grand on a piece of cardboard.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
This Tabernacle was sold to me by SCG as NM, so there's also that data point.
http://i.imgur.com/EaTU0Yy.jpg
(Ignore the horizontal line - that's a lighting artifact; the edge/corner wear is real, though.)
If that wasn't a Black Lotus, I probably would have also called it NM, despite the couple dings on the edge. Grading tends to get more conservative with more valuable cards, though.
Unfortunately I'm in agreement with kindgrind. I understand how hard it is to find an actual NM tabernacle. But that's just a little too much whitening to be called NM, even for an old card from Legends.
There's three marks there--three instances of edgewear and additional corner wear. If it was just the corner wear I'd let the NM grade slide. This is a NM- at best assuming the rest is perfect.
I agree that in this case, the final grade is dissapointing because the only flaw is a very aesthetically obvious one. That said, BGS is very strict on their grades and this lotus is basically perfect other than those marks.
This is why the subgrades are important. As a collector, know what you want and look at each subgrade, not just the final grade. I have a BGS 9 beta lotus with 9.5, 9, 9, 9 sub's and would take that any day over a lotus with all 9.5 sub's except 8.5 for edgewear.
There is a big difference between 8.5 and 9, and so ensuring you have at least 9's in all four categories means the card is mint in every way and not extra mint with a SP edge or corner.
BGS is really solid and strict. I would be VERY hesitant to make a grading call for that Lotus on such a poor picture where light can play all sorts of tricks and bounce off every little dust particle. Remember BGS is sleeved then slabbed so often you have light bouncing of imperfections in the sleeve or slab and making the card look worse that it is. Unless I saw that in person I would trust the BGS grading.
I think that, fundamentally, the Magic community places greater weight on the condition of the card - in particularly, any shuffle creases, whitening, or nicks on the edges or corners. I've never seen or heard of a player who did in-depth scrutiny of surface wear or the degree to which the card is centered before making a trade, but surfaces and centering are two of the 4 grading categories for BGS.
As an extreme example, consider a miscut Beta Black Lotus where the left edge was part of some other card. That would get an absolutely horrid grade, but it would probably be the most sought-after and rare item in existence.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Former Level 2 Judge (Retired / Renounced)
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
BGS grading, while highly regarded in the magic community does not employ a grading system that aligns with the average magic
player's expectations on condition.
This is precisely the kind of thing I'm talking about.
beta lotus BGS 9.0
Huge border edge whitening on the top. Light edge wear on the right edge. This card would get
SP if it was coming out of channelfireball or starcitygames.
http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/cardconditions
The Average magic player looks primarily at two things: Edge whitening and corner whitening.
Most players I know will instantly disqualify a card from being NM if there is edge or border whitening.
I sell cards occasionally, and if I sold a card with two dings of whitening edgewear at the top as Near Mint, my customers would want their money back.
This BGS 9.0 is a starcitygames Slightly Played Condition!
The crux is that the wear is visible. It only got a 9.0 subgrade because the Centering, Corner, and surface got 9.5 subgrades
Second, "huge border edge whitening" definitely feels like an overstatement. The two areas at the top are all I see. I don't see wear on the right edge.
Finally, NM means NEAR mint. Most definitions I've seen allow for one or two small defects on a card. (Some definitions are even more liberal than that.) The picture is somewhat blurry, but from what I can see, the card is nearly immaculate except for the two small dings at the top. That definitely qualifies for NM in my book. The grade appears justified to me.
That is instant disqualification from NM. SCG and CFG both say on their grading criteria say SP contains visible wear
Grading this Black Lotus overall 9/10 seems perfectly reasonable in my opinion, having only 1 obvious flaw. But I would also grade it SP using SCG's scale. Troll and Toad would rate this NM.
This is why I get high quality pictures/scans for cards over $10 or whenever possible. The picture of that lotus is not very good.
But the point I'm making here is important because the market places a tremendous premium on BGS 10 vs BGS 9.5 vs BGS 9.0 Those grades make a huge difference in price for
alpha, beta, UL, Legends, AQ, AN, etc.
We magic players do not like to see visible whitening on our edges and corners. AT ALL. White corners, white edges = instant disqualification from NM. And that beta lotus is an example where you have flawless corners, centering, and surface, but visible edge whitening. The high score on those other three grades pull up the overall grade to a 9.0
And a surprising real world consequence to the people here on market street is that you might pay a HUGE premium price for the BGS 9.0 card, and get a card considered SP from SCG.
I'm not saying BGS is bad. Im not saying there's anything better. But the high end collector should at least be fore-warned, you may not be getting what you think you're getting.
My advice to the high end collector is make sure what you want aligns with the actual card sitting inside the case.
If I ever paid for a BGS 9.0 card, I sure as hell wouldn't want to end up buying a card considered SP by the greater magic community.
Also, the very good centering, surface, and corners more than make up for the tiny bit of edgewear. That lotus is nigh perfect in those regards. Finding a store that would grade that lotus SP is likely not possible especially in that BGS 9 case. You're looking at a card from beta that just has a tiny bit of edge wear but in every other aspect is near flawless. It's hard to find a lotus in this good of condition from beta with 3 9.5 subscores. If I was able to burn 18 grand without consequence I would buy this card. But I'm poor/can't blow 18 grand on a piece of cardboard.
Currently Playing:
Retired
http://i.imgur.com/EaTU0Yy.jpg
(Ignore the horizontal line - that's a lighting artifact; the edge/corner wear is real, though.)
If that wasn't a Black Lotus, I probably would have also called it NM, despite the couple dings on the edge. Grading tends to get more conservative with more valuable cards, though.
There's three marks there--three instances of edgewear and additional corner wear. If it was just the corner wear I'd let the NM grade slide. This is a NM- at best assuming the rest is perfect.
This is why the subgrades are important. As a collector, know what you want and look at each subgrade, not just the final grade. I have a BGS 9 beta lotus with 9.5, 9, 9, 9 sub's and would take that any day over a lotus with all 9.5 sub's except 8.5 for edgewear.
There is a big difference between 8.5 and 9, and so ensuring you have at least 9's in all four categories means the card is mint in every way and not extra mint with a SP edge or corner.
As an extreme example, consider a miscut Beta Black Lotus where the left edge was part of some other card. That would get an absolutely horrid grade, but it would probably be the most sought-after and rare item in existence.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver