Interesting observations, but a 2/1 doesn't seem like much of a threat to RDW, protection or not. Is the one-time token generation really so impressive that RDW can't push past it?
Interesting observations, but a 2/1 doesn't seem like much of a threat to RDW, protection or not. Is the one-time token generation really so impressive that RDW can't push past it?
The mono-blue devotion decks that runs it easily pumps out 3-4 tokens per casting and in multiples the lord effect goes into overdrive.
Even if you just have two devotion you have 6 power for 4 mana.
The mono-blue devotion decks that runs it easily pumps out 3-4 tokens per casting and in multiples the lord effect goes into overdrive.
Even if you just have two devotion you have 6 power for 4 mana.
8 if you already have two devotion. 6 if the U in Master's CC is the 2nd devotion to blue.
It still seems like fairly weak tech against RDW as long as Electrickery and Legion Loyalist exist, but I could see there being some money to be made on it if you get in now before the paper market catches up and get out before people adapt to it.
Ohhhh, good point! An army of 2/1 (or 3/2+) first strike tramplers, nice.
EDIT: I know you were saying Loyalist is a minus for Master of Waves... I'm just saying it could also be a PLUS for Master of Waves since they play nicely together (if you can handle the mana base).
Also, remember that attacking with a 1/1 red haste/first strike/trample creature into a 2/1 protection from red would be a very bad move.
Ohhhh, good point! An army of 2/1 (or 3/2+) first strike tramplers, nice.
EDIT: I know you were saying Loyalist is a minus for Master of Waves... I'm just saying it could also be a PLUS for Master of Waves since they play nicely together (if you can handle the mana base).
Also, remember that attacking with a 1/1 red haste/first strike/trample creature into a 2/1 protection from red would be a very bad move.
There are a lot of cards out there that synergize better than Legion Loyalist for Master of Waves, and if you're trying to get maximum value out of him, splashing red is probably not the place to start.
The point is that counting on tokens to keep you alive against RDW can be a very bad move. The can't be blocked by tokens is the relevant ability here. I realize that Master of Waves can kill legion loyalist, but if RDW needs multiple attack phases after turn 4 to kill the opponent, it probably wasn't going to win anyway.
I'm not denying that Master has applications in a red-dominated meta, but red has ways to answer it pretty effectively with cards that are not dead in other matchups. That suggests to me that I need a better reason than "it beats RDW" to invest in this card.
Yeah, you need a better reason than simply "it beats one of the big current decks", of course. Why not compare it to Deranged Hermit, then? Ever play with it? I've done so quite a bit, and Master of Waves comes to mind again.
With something like Tidebinder Mage on turn 2 or 3, and maybe another blue permanent in play, when you hit turn 4 and drop the Master, you'll get 4 tokens. (You're not going to play it in a deck that doesn't have blue permanents, so suggesting you will only get 1 or 2 tokens is silliness.) Even if you mess up or your opponent lucks out, you'll still get at least a couple 2/1 tokens (and the 2/1 protection red) for 3U. If things go your way, you get 6 or 7 2/1s. Multiples just get absolutely insane to deal with.
I see "pro red" as just a bonus. The card's already playable without it I think, but it certainly adds some extra value.
Yeah, you need a better reason than simply "it beats one of the big current decks", of course. Why not compare it to Deranged Hermit, then? Ever play with it? I've done so quite a bit, and Master of Waves comes to mind again.
With something like Tidebinder Mage on turn 2 or 3, and maybe another blue permanent in play, when you hit turn 4 and drop the Master, you'll get 4 tokens. (You're not going to play it in a deck that doesn't have blue permanents, so suggesting you will only get 1 or 2 tokens is silliness.) Even if you mess up or your opponent lucks out, you'll still get at least a couple 2/1 tokens (and the 2/1 protection red) for 3U. If things go your way, you get 6 or 7 2/1s. Multiples just get absolutely insane to deal with.
I see "pro red" as just a bonus. The card's already playable without it I think, but it certainly adds some extra value.
Not just that though, the card also has tremendous casual appeal which means it's very deserving of the attention it is getting on MTGO now. Will be interesting to see if it will also jump up in paper.
Yeah, you need a better reason than simply "it beats one of the big current decks", of course. Why not compare it to Deranged Hermit, then? Ever play with it? I've done so quite a bit, and Master of Waves comes to mind again.
With something like Tidebinder Mage on turn 2 or 3, and maybe another blue permanent in play, when you hit turn 4 and drop the Master, you'll get 4 tokens. (You're not going to play it in a deck that doesn't have blue permanents, so suggesting you will only get 1 or 2 tokens is silliness.) Even if you mess up or your opponent lucks out, you'll still get at least a couple 2/1 tokens (and the 2/1 protection red) for 3U. If things go your way, you get 6 or 7 2/1s. Multiples just get absolutely insane to deal with.
I see "pro red" as just a bonus. The card's already playable without it I think, but it certainly adds some extra value.
Yep, my brother played a fairly competitive squirrel token/hermit deck. Great card.
I still can't see Master of Waves making a big standard splash (I'm so sorry, I had to do it) though. Maybe in legacy/modern merfolk, or maybe next year when the shocks and all the great multicolor ravnica block stuff rotates, but right now most mono-color decks are just weaker than the alternatives, and devotion-based decks ask too much in terms of sacrifice in overall card quality for too little reward. This is especially true in blue, where so many of the most powerful cards are not permanents.
Yeah good point, Frostburn Weird, I forgot that is seeing play lately, cool.
And yeah maybe it'll do better as the block progresses, and there is more support in Standard for monocolour.
That said, looks like it's pushing up to $8 or $9 (shipped) on eBay now. Not a lot of copies around, indicating the price should continue to move up if demand continues.
Thanks for the link
Guildgates? That deck could benefit from 4 Scrylands.
Anyway yeah. My current stock of Masters just sold this afternoon - one customer picked up some and another bought the rest.
Thassa is still on eBay for $12 but I think it's a very strong god and could see it being $20 long term. An indestructible 3 drop that lets you scry before every draw step is beautiful. Sometimes being a 5/5 unkillable beatstick and making your team unblockable sure is a nice bonus.
Scry 1 is nice, but how much play did Crystal Ball see? Competitive blue decks almost never have 5 blue symbols on the board and in practice, their creatures tend to be unblockable, anyway. It will have a place in a few of my commander decks alongside Crystal Ball, though.
Scry 1 is nice, but how much play did Crystal Ball see?
It was played quite a bit despite being worse in about a zillion ways, and only significantly better than Thassa by fitting into decks that don't have access to :symu:.
It was played quite a bit despite being worse in about a zillion ways, and only significantly better than Thassa by fitting into decks that don't have access to :symu:.
At the same time, however, is it not unreasonable to argue the counterpoint that the reason why Crystal Ball was seeing play was because it was being played in decks and colors that traditionally do not have access to solid filtering and card draw spells? White and Green, for instance.
I'm not seeing a deck database of lists that go back far enough to check out M11 Standard, but I would imagine the being playable in non-blue decks would matter a fair bit.
I may be wrong, of course, and I'll freely admit that I don't have the data to substantiate such a claim, but it seems at least a plausible reason. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
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Was Crystal Ball popular in non-blue decks? Perhaps, I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised, but I don't think Thassa needs any help from Crystal Ball, I think Thassa is incredible whether or not Crystal Ball was played in blue decks. Somebody else brought up Crystal Ball, to argue that because it never saw play (which is actually incorrect), Thassa won't either.
I should think that Thassa, God of the Sea already appearing in State champs lists negates the whole argument that Crystal Ball never saw competitive play. The threat of an extra body and unblockability of your team is huge. When you play her she feels very planeswalkerish.
It's definitely found a home already.
Here's another list from State champs with it in at 3rd-4th place (Also has Master of Waves).
Both of them are making appearances now in competitive decks and as the rest of the block gets released with more devotion support they should only get stronger. My gut says get both of these sooner rather than later.
What about Fleecemane Lion? Only he and Angelic Overseer have indestructible AND hexproof or shroud. It's a very potent combination. Anybody having luck with it?
Master of Waves is now the second most expensive card in Theros after Elspeth on MTGO. Surpassing both Ashiok and Stormbreath Dragon.
Thassa, God of the Sea is also rapidly climbing as they generally come as a combo package. Sitting in fourth place on most lists.
Taking this into account paper should soon follow suit and in the Standard huge gainers thread folks are saying there is a big buzz on twitter.
I'd speculate that Mistcutter Hydra will be positioned better to counter the Blue influx and it slices through the Master of Waves token horde. They've certainly planned this out and it should take a while for the meta to respond this way depending on how popular the deck gets. The next few weeks should tell.
One thing is certain and that is that Devotion is really an underestimated mechanic. On MTGO stats I see that an interest Blue / Black Devotion deck is also doing well in the dailys focusing more on Black devotion with Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Erebos, God of the Dead. It's telling when Blue is a colour usually light on permanents and still does well with Devotion themes. It's very cool to note that Nightveil Specter features heavily in some Blue and Black devotion lists and might be a card which will gain a few dollars as an all-star devotion enabler. Here's an example: http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/77800
Another thought is that the Elemental tokens from Master of Waves might go up a little - similar to Voice of Resurgence's token. I don't know how frequent they are in packs but since it is a mythic rare their tokens might be rarer and also because each Master generates a lot of tokens so demand should be high. Rancored_elf do you have any indication how rare the tokens are?
Another thought is that the Elemental tokens from Master of Waves might go up a little - similar to Voice of Resurgence's token. I don't know how frequent they are in packs but since it is a mythic rare their tokens might be rarer and also because each Master generates a lot of tokens so demand should be high. Rancored_elf do you have any indication how rare the tokens are?
This is purely anecdotal, but from what I can tell, they're not rare at all. I've gotten as many of them as I have any other seemingly common token. For me, the rarest one so far has been the 2/1 enchantment creature cleric that Heliod makes. I've only gotten one so far (vs. 4-6 of most of the others).
Rancored Elf will cancel your order if prices go up. Read about him and other shady vendors here.
My Trade Thread!
The mono-blue devotion decks that runs it easily pumps out 3-4 tokens per casting and in multiples the lord effect goes into overdrive.
Even if you just have two devotion you have 6 power for 4 mana.
8 if you already have two devotion. 6 if the U in Master's CC is the 2nd devotion to blue.
It still seems like fairly weak tech against RDW as long as Electrickery and Legion Loyalist exist, but I could see there being some money to be made on it if you get in now before the paper market catches up and get out before people adapt to it.
Rancored Elf will cancel your order if prices go up. Read about him and other shady vendors here.
My Trade Thread!
Ohhhh, good point! An army of 2/1 (or 3/2+) first strike tramplers, nice.
EDIT: I know you were saying Loyalist is a minus for Master of Waves... I'm just saying it could also be a PLUS for Master of Waves since they play nicely together (if you can handle the mana base).
Also, remember that attacking with a 1/1 red haste/first strike/trample creature into a 2/1 protection from red would be a very bad move.
.
There are a lot of cards out there that synergize better than Legion Loyalist for Master of Waves, and if you're trying to get maximum value out of him, splashing red is probably not the place to start.
The point is that counting on tokens to keep you alive against RDW can be a very bad move. The can't be blocked by tokens is the relevant ability here. I realize that Master of Waves can kill legion loyalist, but if RDW needs multiple attack phases after turn 4 to kill the opponent, it probably wasn't going to win anyway.
I'm not denying that Master has applications in a red-dominated meta, but red has ways to answer it pretty effectively with cards that are not dead in other matchups. That suggests to me that I need a better reason than "it beats RDW" to invest in this card.
Rancored Elf will cancel your order if prices go up. Read about him and other shady vendors here.
My Trade Thread!
With something like Tidebinder Mage on turn 2 or 3, and maybe another blue permanent in play, when you hit turn 4 and drop the Master, you'll get 4 tokens. (You're not going to play it in a deck that doesn't have blue permanents, so suggesting you will only get 1 or 2 tokens is silliness.) Even if you mess up or your opponent lucks out, you'll still get at least a couple 2/1 tokens (and the 2/1 protection red) for 3U. If things go your way, you get 6 or 7 2/1s. Multiples just get absolutely insane to deal with.
I see "pro red" as just a bonus. The card's already playable without it I think, but it certainly adds some extra value.
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Exactly this. It synergises so well with Frostburn Weird and Tidebinder Mage. Thassa, God of the Sea also is a natural fit to the deck. Really fun to play.
Not just that though, the card also has tremendous casual appeal which means it's very deserving of the attention it is getting on MTGO now. Will be interesting to see if it will also jump up in paper.
Yep, my brother played a fairly competitive squirrel token/hermit deck. Great card.
I still can't see Master of Waves making a big standard splash (I'm so sorry, I had to do it) though. Maybe in legacy/modern merfolk, or maybe next year when the shocks and all the great multicolor ravnica block stuff rotates, but right now most mono-color decks are just weaker than the alternatives, and devotion-based decks ask too much in terms of sacrifice in overall card quality for too little reward. This is especially true in blue, where so many of the most powerful cards are not permanents.
Rancored Elf will cancel your order if prices go up. Read about him and other shady vendors here.
My Trade Thread!
And yeah maybe it'll do better as the block progresses, and there is more support in Standard for monocolour.
That said, looks like it's pushing up to $8 or $9 (shipped) on eBay now. Not a lot of copies around, indicating the price should continue to move up if demand continues.
.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=59757
Guildgates? That deck could benefit from 4 Scrylands.
Anyway yeah. My current stock of Masters just sold this afternoon - one customer picked up some and another bought the rest.
Thassa is still on eBay for $12 but I think it's a very strong god and could see it being $20 long term. An indestructible 3 drop that lets you scry before every draw step is beautiful. Sometimes being a 5/5 unkillable beatstick and making your team unblockable sure is a nice bonus.
.
It was played quite a bit despite being worse in about a zillion ways, and only significantly better than Thassa by fitting into decks that don't have access to :symu:.
.
At the same time, however, is it not unreasonable to argue the counterpoint that the reason why Crystal Ball was seeing play was because it was being played in decks and colors that traditionally do not have access to solid filtering and card draw spells? White and Green, for instance.
I'm not seeing a deck database of lists that go back far enough to check out M11 Standard, but I would imagine the being playable in non-blue decks would matter a fair bit.
I may be wrong, of course, and I'll freely admit that I don't have the data to substantiate such a claim, but it seems at least a plausible reason. Feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
.
It's definitely found a home already.
Here's another list from State champs with it in at 3rd-4th place (Also has Master of Waves).
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1163464
Both of them are making appearances now in competitive decks and as the rest of the block gets released with more devotion support they should only get stronger. My gut says get both of these sooner rather than later.
.
Thassa, God of the Sea is also rapidly climbing as they generally come as a combo package. Sitting in fourth place on most lists.
Taking this into account paper should soon follow suit and in the Standard huge gainers thread folks are saying there is a big buzz on twitter.
I'd speculate that Mistcutter Hydra will be positioned better to counter the Blue influx and it slices through the Master of Waves token horde. They've certainly planned this out and it should take a while for the meta to respond this way depending on how popular the deck gets. The next few weeks should tell.
One thing is certain and that is that Devotion is really an underestimated mechanic. On MTGO stats I see that an interest Blue / Black Devotion deck is also doing well in the dailys focusing more on Black devotion with Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Erebos, God of the Dead. It's telling when Blue is a colour usually light on permanents and still does well with Devotion themes. It's very cool to note that Nightveil Specter features heavily in some Blue and Black devotion lists and might be a card which will gain a few dollars as an all-star devotion enabler. Here's an example: http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/77800
Another thought is that the Elemental tokens from Master of Waves might go up a little - similar to Voice of Resurgence's token. I don't know how frequent they are in packs but since it is a mythic rare their tokens might be rarer and also because each Master generates a lot of tokens so demand should be high. Rancored_elf do you have any indication how rare the tokens are?
This is purely anecdotal, but from what I can tell, they're not rare at all. I've gotten as many of them as I have any other seemingly common token. For me, the rarest one so far has been the 2/1 enchantment creature cleric that Heliod makes. I've only gotten one so far (vs. 4-6 of most of the others).