Would things be different if these sellers used the word "counterfeit" instead of "proxy" in their posts? Is all that needs to be done in order to violate copyright rules is to use a better sounding word?
Yes, but not for the reason you suggest. If they actually used the word "counterfeit," I bet eBay would find the improper listings right away. They could easily check for that word. From a player's perspective, it doesn't matter what they call them; if they are what WotC officially calls "counterfeits" -- a copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card -- then they are bad for all of us in the long run.
On a slight tangent, I think we as a community need to do a better job of using the official terms using WotC's official definitions now that we have them. Specifically, we have "Proxy," "Counterfeit," and "Play-test" cards, and they all mean something very specific. Our general laxness in using these terms interchangeably allows counterfeiters to use the word "proxy" to make it less obvious that they're making counterfeits and to try and gain the moral high ground in conversations calling them out on the practice.
If EBAY is legally obligated to remove these posts, how timely do they need to be? If a listing lasts a week, and they take 10 days before getting around to looking at it, that doesn't do a lot of good.
Yeah, I really don't see a way for eBay to catch these themselves. It's incumbent on us, as a community, to be vigilant and report these kind of thing when we see it. That's how we keep a lid on it.
So if a seller creates a listing selling counterfeit cards that lasts 1 week, and I report the listing the day it was first posted, and then a week goes by and the items sells and EBAY gets it's cut, is that ok? Is there a legal responsibility to make sure the item gets removed in a timely matter? What would the definition of "timely" be? What about the account making the sale? Do they have a legal responsibility to ban the account? I see the same accounts (just today in fact, one with over 300 feedbacks relisting a bunch of counterfeits) posting over and over. I would like to hear a lawyer's input to these questions.
So if a seller creates a listing selling counterfeit cards that lasts 1 week, and I report the listing the day it was first posted, and then a week goes by and the items sells and EBAY gets it's cut, is that ok? Is there a legal responsibility to make sure the item gets removed in a timely matter? What would the definition of "timely" be? What about the account making the sale? Do they have a legal responsibility to ban the account? I see the same accounts (just today in fact, one with over 300 feedbacks relisting a bunch of counterfeits) posting over and over. I would like to hear a lawyer's input to these questions.
Looks like you didn't look upthread at the quoted Tiffany vs eBay ruling...
I don't see how this thread is productive. Moderator(s), if you're reading, this is moving quickly from proxies to eBay policy and IMO should be locked.
So if a seller creates a listing selling counterfeit cards that lasts 1 week, and I report the listing the day it was first posted, and then a week goes by and the items sells and EBAY gets it's cut, is that ok? Is there a legal responsibility to make sure the item gets removed in a timely matter? What would the definition of "timely" be? What about the account making the sale? Do they have a legal responsibility to ban the account? I see the same accounts (just today in fact, one with over 300 feedbacks relisting a bunch of counterfeits) posting over and over. I would like to hear a lawyer's input to these questions.
Looks like you didn't look upthread at the quoted Tiffany vs eBay ruling...
I don't see how this thread is productive. Moderator(s), if you're reading, this is moving quickly from proxies to eBay policy and IMO should be locked.
I just looked up the case in question, and as I assumed it is about sellers of fake Tiffany products trying to sell them as real. The ruling states that it is Tiffany's responsibility to police the sellers. This thread is talking about sellers admitting they are selling counterfeit cards, the public (me and others that report these listings) doing the policing and making EBAY aware of the sales, and EBAY not responding in a timely matter or banning all of the offending accounts.
As magic collectors/players, we all have a big interest in slowing the distribution of counterfeit cards. If you don't like the thread, feel free not to follow it.
So if a seller creates a listing selling counterfeit cards that lasts 1 week, and I report the listing the day it was first posted, and then a week goes by and the items sells and EBAY gets it's cut, is that ok? Is there a legal responsibility to make sure the item gets removed in a timely matter? What would the definition of "timely" be? What about the account making the sale? Do they have a legal responsibility to ban the account? I see the same accounts (just today in fact, one with over 300 feedbacks relisting a bunch of counterfeits) posting over and over. I would like to hear a lawyer's input to these questions.
Looks like you didn't look upthread at the quoted Tiffany vs eBay ruling...
I don't see how this thread is productive. Moderator(s), if you're reading, this is moving quickly from proxies to eBay policy and IMO should be locked.
I just looked up the case in question, and as I assumed it is about sellers of fake Tiffany products trying to sell them as real. The ruling states that it is Tiffany's responsibility to police the sellers. This thread is talking about sellers admitting they are selling counterfeit cards, the public (me and others that report these listings) doing the policing and making EBAY aware of the sales, and EBAY not responding in a timely matter or banning all of the offending accounts.
As magic collectors/players, we all have a big interest in slowing the distribution of counterfeit cards. If you don't like the thread, feel free not to follow it.
Where is this zealousness coming from. I agree this thread should be locked.
Would things be different if these sellers used the word "counterfeit" instead of "proxy" in their posts? Is all that needs to be done in order to violate copyright rules is to use a better sounding word?
Yes, but not for the reason you suggest. If they actually used the word "counterfeit," I bet eBay would find the improper listings right away. They could easily check for that word. From a player's perspective, it doesn't matter what they call them; if they are what WotC officially calls "counterfeits" -- a copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card -- then they are bad for all of us in the long run.
On a slight tangent, I think we as a community need to do a better job of using the official terms using WotC's official definitions now that we have them. Specifically, we have "Proxy," "Counterfeit," and "Play-test" cards, and they all mean something very specific. Our general laxness in using these terms interchangeably allows counterfeiters to use the word "proxy" to make it less obvious that they're making counterfeits and to try and gain the moral high ground in conversations calling them out on the practice.
If EBAY is legally obligated to remove these posts, how timely do they need to be? If a listing lasts a week, and they take 10 days before getting around to looking at it, that doesn't do a lot of good.
Yeah, I really don't see a way for eBay to catch these themselves. It's incumbent on us, as a community, to be vigilant and report these kind of thing when we see it. That's how we keep a lid on it.
No, it is incumbent upon the owner of the IP to be vigilant and report. I am not going to volunteer for a ******* for profit corporation. I again question why you made a throwaway to keep posting this nonsense about ebay policy. If you're so fired up, why don't you go have this conversation with eBay customer service.
Also, I'll be damned if I'll let a corporation dictate how I use the English language. Those bull***** definitions were given out to allow them to tap-dance their way back from a PR disaster. They meant what they meant until backlash made them backtrack and try to unsay what they said.
this is a great topic. I have been complaining to ebay and wizards of the cost about this. I email them at least once a month.
Wotc does not seem to care. I might dump my collection if Hasboro and Wotc don't take this seriously.
this is a great topic. I have been complaining to ebay and wizards of the cost about this. I email them at least once a month.
Wotc does not seem to care. I might dump my collection if Hasboro and Wotc don't take this seriously.
Why would they? The most popular cards for sale as counterfeits are cards they're not selling themselves at the moment.
Consumer confidence? That ***** is not real, it's not something that can be quantified and graphed. Sales can, and counterfeits are not affecting their sales enough to change anything about the way they currently do business.
Collectors and RL hoarders may have a hysteric fit everytime they see someone somewhere gets to play Legacy thanks to proxies, so do Legacy players on a budget have a minor stroke whenever hoarders make prices spike even more. WotC on the other hand, obviously doesn't give a ***** about either.
this is a great topic. I have been complaining to ebay and wizards of the cost about this. I email them at least once a month.
Wotc does not seem to care. I might dump my collection if Hasboro and Wotc don't take this seriously.
There is no reason to necro a nearly 6 month old thread.
So, should he have made a new thread, so the whole discussion can start in circles once again?
As long as he links back to the "dead" thread I suppose.
Proxies and counterfeits is one of the reasons I stopped using eBay (and to a lesser degree Amazon). I have a hell of a time getting real stuff (not strictly MtG) sometimes because there are so many fakes floating around.
Ebay isn't really the problem. There's places where you can bulk order, oh i dont know, 100 cards for 100 dollars or whatever and get all your tabernacles, scalding tarns, and goyfs in one go. even if they shut down these websites, they just take their business somewhere else.
i mean i like that people are concerned about counterfeiting of course, but if its keeping you up at night, then maybe you're spending too much on magic... how do i explain it... its like with bidding on ebay; never bid more than youre comfortable paying. this way you don't have to worry about shill bids as much. I personally am not going to sell or trade any of my magic cards and really enjoy having played/playing with the decks so what do i care if counterfeits tank the price?
i think the core of the concern with counterfeiting is too many people are hoarding speculating ect. just keep playsets of stuff you need and personally i dont think you need more than 4 or 5 decks in any format.
A lot of the counterfeits on ebay look like "resales" of purchases from other sites. I'm guessing some people are bulk ordering for cheap from say china and then reselling individual playsets at hiked up prices on ebay. a lot of people maybe dont know where else to get counterfeits or just dont mind a slight price increase. in turn you get the high quality photo scans and a good idea of the quality of the card youre getting. besides, most people maybe just need a single playset of LED or jace or whatever. I dont think people are looking to buy an entire legacy or modern collection in one go (or maybe they are, who knows).
Ebay isn't really the problem. There's places where you can bulk order, oh i dont know, 100 cards for 100 dollars or whatever and get all your tabernacles, scalding tarns, and goyfs in one go. even if they shut down these websites, they just take their business somewhere else.
i mean i like that people are concerned about counterfeiting of course, but if its keeping you up at night, then maybe you're spending too much on magic... how do i explain it... its like with bidding on ebay; never bid more than youre comfortable paying. this way you don't have to worry about shill bids as much. I personally am not going to sell or trade any of my magic cards and really enjoy having played/playing with the decks so what do i care if counterfeits tank the price?
i think the core of the concern with counterfeiting is too many people are hoarding speculating ect. just keep playsets of stuff you need and personally i dont think you need more than 4 or 5 decks in any format.
You've summed up every reason why counterfeiting will destroy this game if nothing is done.
"Maybe you're all just too concerned with money. I mean... it's just money. Who cares if it ever gets devalued because no one will take it any more." You're literally describing how this will die if they just give up anti-counterfeiting operations. If you have ever been to a tournament and have seen someone get DQ'd (or had this happen to you) because of this, you would care. It's not all about speculators. Speculation doesn't even have crap to do with this, except for what they choose to counterfeit. Even then, I've seen some bad fakes of cards that would've been cheaper to buy than waste the ink counterfeiting. They're ruining the integrity of the competitive aspects of the game. WotC could do a lot to allieviate this problem in several ways, but they've chosen to bury their collective head in the sand on a number of issues, including this, ever since they were acquired by Hasbro. Even so, any retailer who makes money by selling (or re-selling) needs to be concerned about the legitimacy of what is getting sold via their name. They could not care less as long as the money rolls in, but I promise you tons of people will stop buying. If people stop buying from you, your store will go belly-up. Hence, they at least feign to care about the consumer enough to not let that happen. That's just simple math. Consumers want to feel that they're getting what they're paying for. Wotc and eBay aren't the only fish in the sea.
By the way, keeping play sets of stuff you "need" is a form of hoarding. For instance, if everyone did that with staples, Wizards would have to keep reprinting a lot of cards.
i could be understimating the problem; downplaying the whole issue.
but between all the shops i visit, community colleges, peoples houses where we do draft or cube or whatever, i've seen some counterfeits and whatnot. i know people with both counterfeits and the real thing, usually people with 40+ edh decks who don't want to share a single gaea's cradle between 20 or more decks. its easier to buy fakes. they were never going to buy the real thing anyway (beyond the first one).
the fakes look REALLY good but are plastic-y if that makes sense. correct weight and thickness but too glossy and incorrect cardboard stock. i dont think you could get away with selling or trading a fake to someone. i could see it being used in a sanctioned tournament and getting away with it but thats about it.
even with cheap fakes floating around, the people i know (and myself) prefer to still have the real thing. any card at or below $50 will just be bought and if its more than that, i dont know, forget about it or wait for a reprint.
i guess there are some people who get their kicks out of buying fake modern cards and using them in tournaments, oh well.
i never see counterfeit standard cards or draft cards (obviously) when going through ebay lisitings. i think its just high end modern and legacy cards being faked.
I have 40 shocks and 20 fetches for modern at the moment.... a playset of everything but the zen fetches. i dont think this is really hoarding. if you have more than 20 of each i'd say thats a bit much. i know of 3 people who own more than 50 of each khans fetchland. I sometimes cross paths with people who will own well over a 100 serum visions, 200 remands, 150-ish inquisition of kozilek, maybe 35 emrakuls (i think theyre crazy). they're just extra playsets for future decks they build. i think everyone knows a guy who orders at least one or 2 or 12 cases every time a new set comes out. strangely, these are some of the same people buying counterfeits sometimes.
i dont know, sometimes i get angry about it and rant on here about counterfeiting. other times its funny, comparable to fake purses or anything else that gets counterfeited.
overall it interests me.
its also preferable to doing schoolwork that i procrastinate
A local store owner got a bunch of power nines to test them out and see if his employees would fall for them, so far he hasn't found a counterfeiter that can fool a store and those that can sure as **** won't be selling them as proxy, counterfeits, etc. They'll be claimed to be the real thing.
On the upside we've got a new proxi vintage league and people who don't have real power can borrow the owner's fakes collection to play.
the fakes look REALLY good but are plastic-y if that makes sense. correct weight and thickness but too glossy and incorrect cardboard stock. i dont think you could get away with selling or trading a fake to someone. i could see it being used in a sanctioned tournament and getting away with it but thats about it.
They are either plastic-y (inflexible, wrong texture and glossiness, maybe a hair too thick), or way too thin and a bit fake looking. I have yet to see these perfect fakes people keep going on and on about. I think the best you would do with them is have a card you can use as a proxy in a deck. Sure you might get away with it at an event, but if anyone feels the cards (even in a sleeve), they will know immediately.
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Yes, but not for the reason you suggest. If they actually used the word "counterfeit," I bet eBay would find the improper listings right away. They could easily check for that word. From a player's perspective, it doesn't matter what they call them; if they are what WotC officially calls "counterfeits" -- a copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card -- then they are bad for all of us in the long run.
On a slight tangent, I think we as a community need to do a better job of using the official terms using WotC's official definitions now that we have them. Specifically, we have "Proxy," "Counterfeit," and "Play-test" cards, and they all mean something very specific. Our general laxness in using these terms interchangeably allows counterfeiters to use the word "proxy" to make it less obvious that they're making counterfeits and to try and gain the moral high ground in conversations calling them out on the practice.
Yeah, I really don't see a way for eBay to catch these themselves. It's incumbent on us, as a community, to be vigilant and report these kind of thing when we see it. That's how we keep a lid on it.
Looks like you didn't look upthread at the quoted Tiffany vs eBay ruling...
I don't see how this thread is productive. Moderator(s), if you're reading, this is moving quickly from proxies to eBay policy and IMO should be locked.
I just looked up the case in question, and as I assumed it is about sellers of fake Tiffany products trying to sell them as real. The ruling states that it is Tiffany's responsibility to police the sellers. This thread is talking about sellers admitting they are selling counterfeit cards, the public (me and others that report these listings) doing the policing and making EBAY aware of the sales, and EBAY not responding in a timely matter or banning all of the offending accounts.
As magic collectors/players, we all have a big interest in slowing the distribution of counterfeit cards. If you don't like the thread, feel free not to follow it.
Where is this zealousness coming from. I agree this thread should be locked.
No, it is incumbent upon the owner of the IP to be vigilant and report. I am not going to volunteer for a ******* for profit corporation. I again question why you made a throwaway to keep posting this nonsense about ebay policy. If you're so fired up, why don't you go have this conversation with eBay customer service.
Also, I'll be damned if I'll let a corporation dictate how I use the English language. Those bull***** definitions were given out to allow them to tap-dance their way back from a PR disaster. They meant what they meant until backlash made them backtrack and try to unsay what they said.
Wotc does not seem to care. I might dump my collection if Hasboro and Wotc don't take this seriously.
Why would they? The most popular cards for sale as counterfeits are cards they're not selling themselves at the moment.
Consumer confidence? That ***** is not real, it's not something that can be quantified and graphed. Sales can, and counterfeits are not affecting their sales enough to change anything about the way they currently do business.
Collectors and RL hoarders may have a hysteric fit everytime they see someone somewhere gets to play Legacy thanks to proxies, so do Legacy players on a budget have a minor stroke whenever hoarders make prices spike even more. WotC on the other hand, obviously doesn't give a ***** about either.
There is no reason to necro a nearly 6 month old thread.
As long as he links back to the "dead" thread I suppose.
Proxies and counterfeits is one of the reasons I stopped using eBay (and to a lesser degree Amazon). I have a hell of a time getting real stuff (not strictly MtG) sometimes because there are so many fakes floating around.
i mean i like that people are concerned about counterfeiting of course, but if its keeping you up at night, then maybe you're spending too much on magic... how do i explain it... its like with bidding on ebay; never bid more than youre comfortable paying. this way you don't have to worry about shill bids as much. I personally am not going to sell or trade any of my magic cards and really enjoy having played/playing with the decks so what do i care if counterfeits tank the price?
i think the core of the concern with counterfeiting is too many people are hoarding speculating ect. just keep playsets of stuff you need and personally i dont think you need more than 4 or 5 decks in any format.
just my guess
You've summed up every reason why counterfeiting will destroy this game if nothing is done.
"Maybe you're all just too concerned with money. I mean... it's just money. Who cares if it ever gets devalued because no one will take it any more." You're literally describing how this will die if they just give up anti-counterfeiting operations. If you have ever been to a tournament and have seen someone get DQ'd (or had this happen to you) because of this, you would care. It's not all about speculators. Speculation doesn't even have crap to do with this, except for what they choose to counterfeit. Even then, I've seen some bad fakes of cards that would've been cheaper to buy than waste the ink counterfeiting. They're ruining the integrity of the competitive aspects of the game. WotC could do a lot to allieviate this problem in several ways, but they've chosen to bury their collective head in the sand on a number of issues, including this, ever since they were acquired by Hasbro. Even so, any retailer who makes money by selling (or re-selling) needs to be concerned about the legitimacy of what is getting sold via their name. They could not care less as long as the money rolls in, but I promise you tons of people will stop buying. If people stop buying from you, your store will go belly-up. Hence, they at least feign to care about the consumer enough to not let that happen. That's just simple math. Consumers want to feel that they're getting what they're paying for. Wotc and eBay aren't the only fish in the sea.
By the way, keeping play sets of stuff you "need" is a form of hoarding. For instance, if everyone did that with staples, Wizards would have to keep reprinting a lot of cards.
but between all the shops i visit, community colleges, peoples houses where we do draft or cube or whatever, i've seen some counterfeits and whatnot. i know people with both counterfeits and the real thing, usually people with 40+ edh decks who don't want to share a single gaea's cradle between 20 or more decks. its easier to buy fakes. they were never going to buy the real thing anyway (beyond the first one).
the fakes look REALLY good but are plastic-y if that makes sense. correct weight and thickness but too glossy and incorrect cardboard stock. i dont think you could get away with selling or trading a fake to someone. i could see it being used in a sanctioned tournament and getting away with it but thats about it.
even with cheap fakes floating around, the people i know (and myself) prefer to still have the real thing. any card at or below $50 will just be bought and if its more than that, i dont know, forget about it or wait for a reprint.
i guess there are some people who get their kicks out of buying fake modern cards and using them in tournaments, oh well.
i never see counterfeit standard cards or draft cards (obviously) when going through ebay lisitings. i think its just high end modern and legacy cards being faked.
I have 40 shocks and 20 fetches for modern at the moment.... a playset of everything but the zen fetches. i dont think this is really hoarding. if you have more than 20 of each i'd say thats a bit much. i know of 3 people who own more than 50 of each khans fetchland. I sometimes cross paths with people who will own well over a 100 serum visions, 200 remands, 150-ish inquisition of kozilek, maybe 35 emrakuls (i think theyre crazy). they're just extra playsets for future decks they build. i think everyone knows a guy who orders at least one or 2 or 12 cases every time a new set comes out. strangely, these are some of the same people buying counterfeits sometimes.
overall it interests me.
its also preferable to doing schoolwork that i procrastinate
On the upside we've got a new proxi vintage league and people who don't have real power can borrow the owner's fakes collection to play.
They are either plastic-y (inflexible, wrong texture and glossiness, maybe a hair too thick), or way too thin and a bit fake looking. I have yet to see these perfect fakes people keep going on and on about. I think the best you would do with them is have a card you can use as a proxy in a deck. Sure you might get away with it at an event, but if anyone feels the cards (even in a sleeve), they will know immediately.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB