A person who makes proxies of magic cards and sells them on ebay is liable for copyright infringement, trademark infringement, and likely patent infringement because Magic the Gathering is patented.
Now, they probably still don't want people selling cards where they've printed the mana symbols on there -- those are Wizard's copyright -- but it's nice to get official confirmation that the Booze Cube is not something they're going to be going after.
Disclaimer: I am not an IP attorneys.
The point is that, as a player, I don't think we particularly care about protecting Wizards from people who photocopy a mana symbol. When you play Booze Cube, that doesn't threaten the integrity of the game. We should, I would hope, be able to agree that counterfeit cards have real and dangerous repercussions for all of us (whoops you traded your cards for fakes, SUCKS TO BE YOU) and what Wizards is now calling "Playest" cards do not pose this risk.
I bought from this seller (twice in fact), because our EDH group allows proxies. These are some of the better proxies (counterfeits?) I've encountered, and I can tell you, there's still no way these cards will fool anyone when un-sleeved or touched.
And, in the event anyone cares to chastise or flame me, I really don't care. EDH is the only format I play, and I spend $3000-$4000 on the hobby every year. Wizards, ebay sellers, online stores and LGS make plenty of money off of me. But I'm currently working on EDH deck #21, and I've only got a grand total of 18 Revised Duals, so that was what I primarily chose to purchase as proxy, although I did also get 9 other cards, which I also happened to already own real versions of. I would never try to pass them off in a tournament, or sell them, because frankly I've yet to see any proxy convincing enough to pass for real. Considering that these cards rarely leave my house or my friends house, I have no qualms about nice quality proxies. EVERY proxy I have, I have a real copy of, I just choose not to have to strip one deck to complete another.
Okay, but here's a question for ya. I won't even use the terms so we don't get confused.
Why would you buy a [card that tries to look like a real card] instead of [card that is a better-looking version of a real card with cool custom art]? Doesn't the latter type of card fill the same function without any risk of some poor schmuck getting stuck with a forgery down the road when you sell your collection?
A reasonable question. For me my personal preference is that I prefer to use what looks like the original art. In my 20 current decks, I have 5 that are completely foiled out. But yet, I don't have a single alter or custom art card, because I don't care for their appearance. Also, like many people, I tend to like to have the ability to look across the table and see what's in play, and with alters, or simply custom art cards, I don't always know what a card is if it's not reflective of the original artwork. My friend has a Cube that's ton's of fun to play with, but the draft takes twice as long as it should because about 75% of the Cube is custom art. I don't recognize the card in the Cube, and I don't want that in my EDH game night.
As for "some poor schmuck getting stuck with the cards down the road", I have no intention of selling. I've played CCG's uninterrupted since 1995, which is probably longer than many of the people on these forums have been alive. I still have all my Decipher Star Wars CCG cards and LOTR cards, and those haven't been made in 15 years (in the case of SW). The point is, CCG's have been my hobby for the last 21 years; I'm not selling those games, and I won't sell my Magic anytime soon. But again, to reiterate, these won't pass the sniff test. And (and this is not meant to be boastful), if in the unlikely event I DO choose to sell my MTG collection, currently estimated at $25,000, why would I try to sneak these in and call into question the authenticity of my other cards that I own, such as 6 Wastelands, the 18 Duals, the 2 Moats, my foil Rishadan Port, my playset of Cradles, my pair of Mana Drains, and my near mint Mishra's Workshop? I would take any fakes out before selling.
Okay, but your answer is just you have a personal preference for original art. I mean, no one's gonna talk you outta that, but would you feel badly taking one for the team and using only original pieces instead? It's not like someone is saying you have to use a sharpied land or anything.
No, because again, when the art of a card doesn't match the art that's established in my mind, I find it distracting and potentially confusing. I've swung into unfavorable situations because I don't know what's on the opposite side of the table in a 5 player game, due to custom art proxies. I can't control however what my friends in the playgroup choose to play with, but I can choose what I use.
I'm certainly no lawyer, and MY definitions won't hold up in court, but to me the difference between a proxy and a counterfeit is this: a proxy is designed to STAND IN or represent something else. A counterfeit is designed to fool someone unsuspecting, uninformed, or lacking in general information for the purpose of financial gain for the person attempting to achieve the ruse.
Since these cards are standing in for me (I own originals of all) and since I know the type of person I am (I contribute to charity, I've participated in Habitat for Humanity, I spearheaded a canned food drive raising 7000 pounds of food for a local shelter) I know in my heart I will never try to trade or sell these cards while presenting them as authentic Magic cards. I'm not a thief, never have been. I make an annual salary of approx 80k. I don't need the headache that would come with trying to pass off fake cards as real ones, especially because while these look very real at arms length or across the table, don't look or feel all that real when handled.
Son of a Bith I agree with you. I got a set of Legacy staples that I use just for my EDH Decks and even have them marked on back with a P so no one is ever fooled by them. I tell those I play they are proxy and if they have a problem will pull them out. I used to own all the cards I have but sold them off 15 or so years ago. I feel ZERO guilt for having them or playing them. I am not a "tourney" player or trying to get over just not independently wealthy enough to rebuild an old collection. Frankly WOTC has brought this on themselves with their reserved list. Reap what you sow.
If you purchase a reproduction of a card (even one that has altered art), you are breaking the law.
WotC has recently revised their definition slightly to allow "playtest" cards in casual play and unsanctioned tournaments, but they're very clear that anything beyond sharpie on cards or printed paper is still considered counterfeit, and that selling "playtest cards" is still not okay.
Where did you read that they consider anything beyond a shapried land to be a counterfeit? The citations in this thread do not show that. Counterfeit is defined as a copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card.
I personally don't think I'm supporting counterfeiters, because of the way I above chose to differentiate between proxy and counterfeit. I view counterfeiting as a means for financial gain, that is, selling of an item for a price below but close enough to the price of the original item that it leads the buyer to believe the item he is purchasing is the genuine article. Did this seller financially benefit from me? Yes, but I paid $2.25 per card. After costs and fees he may have made a dollar and a half per card.
As for getting foil versions of these cards to differentiate them from originals but keep the original art...why? To prevent the possibility of these being passed off as originals? I don't know how many times I have to say this. They don't need to be differentiated. In a sleeve, and from a distance across the table, these look pretty legitimate. In your hand, and unsleeved, these would fool no one.
Where did you read that they consider anything beyond a shapried land to be a counterfeit? The citations in this thread do not show that. Counterfeit is defined as a copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card.
Quote from On Proxies, Counterfeits, and Communication »
A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
Bolded the relevant parts.
If it's using official art, it's already skirting the lines.
If it's being sold, commercially, it is way, way over the line.
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The first sentence says that a play test card is -commonly- a basic land, but not that it has to be. The specific requirements are: no official art, and they don't pass for real under even a cursory glance. A hand drawn version of a card meets those requirements.
The last sentence doesn't refer to a defining characteristic of a card, but to what Wizards does and does not police.
So, yeah, it's true that a play test card including a mana symbol may be a copyright violation. But it is NOT a counterfeit according to Wizards definition.
A person who makes proxies of magic cards and sells them on ebay is liable for copyright infringement, trademark infringement, and likely patent infringement because Magic the Gathering is patented.
Now, they probably still don't want people selling cards where they've printed the mana symbols on there -- those are Wizard's copyright -- but it's nice to get official confirmation that the Booze Cube is not something they're going to be going after.
Disclaimer: I am not an IP attorneys.
The point is that, as a player, I don't think we particularly care about protecting Wizards from people who photocopy a mana symbol. When you play Booze Cube, that doesn't threaten the integrity of the game. We should, I would hope, be able to agree that counterfeit cards have real and dangerous repercussions for all of us (whoops you traded your cards for fakes, SUCKS TO BE YOU) and what Wizards is now calling "Playest" cards do not pose this risk.
Disclaimer: I am an IP attorney.
The point I was trying to make is that a person who commits copyright infringement, patent infringement, etc, opens themselves up to liability.
I suppose that doesn't matter much if you're 16, have no assets, and will likely remain insolvent for the next decade.
But it probably should matter more to you if you are further along in your career. Why expose yourself to liability for a couple of bucks?
If you're an IP attorney then you know that someone who wants to take a buyer of these things to court would be a laughing stock. Sure they're "illegal", but nothing will happen to the buyer since trading card game rulesets cannot be protected. Only the seller, and if the buyer is reselling these with the intent to defraud as the real deal is there anything relevant.
Many people don't care about counterfeits/proxies because they want to play Magic the Gathering instead of Wallet the Spending. As long as people are aware of the fakes when selling or trading I could not care less about sitting down in front of someone who has 75 fake cards.
Well... I do care if people are buying counterfeits ("copy or reproduction" of actual card) because doing that injects more fake cards into the Magic economy. Either directly, if the buyer trades or sells it, or indirectly by the buyer funding someone who is selling more counterfeits. If you buy cards on eBay or TCGPlayer or anywhere other than the big stores, you should be just as concerned as me.
(EDIT: And, even if "everyone is aware" of the fake nature of a counterfeit at your kitchen table, the fact that that counterfeit card exists means that eventually it may pass into the hands of someone who will try to deceive people in a trade, sale, or tournament. And, like I said above, the creator got paid for it. It's not innocent just because you verbally tell someone your card isn't legit.)
As a player, I don't care if someone has a bunch of custom-art versions of Vintage staples in their cube, or even at a Magic event, as long as they're just play-test (doesn't look anything like real cards) because those don't have the same risk.
If you purchase a reproduction of a card (even one that has altered art), you are breaking the law.
And driving your car over the speed limit is also breaking the law. Personally I don't know what your intention was by stating this. Could you elaborate more please?
Well... I do care if people are buying counterfeits ("copy or reproduction" of actual card) because doing that injects more fake cards into the Magic economy. Either directly, if the buyer trades or sells it, or indirectly by the buyer funding someone who is selling more counterfeits. If you buy cards on eBay or TCGPlayer or anywhere other than the big stores, you should be just as concerned as me.
(EDIT: And, even if "everyone is aware" of the fake nature of a counterfeit at your kitchen table, the fact that that counterfeit card exists means that eventually it may pass into the hands of someone who will try to deceive people in a trade, sale, or tournament. And, like I said above, the creator got paid for it. It's not innocent just because you verbally tell someone your card isn't legit.)
As a player, I don't care if someone has a bunch of custom-art versions of Vintage staples in their cube, or even at a Magic event, as long as they're just play-test (doesn't look anything like real cards) because those don't have the same risk.
I was anti-proxy until proxy-gate. Now I could care less. I'm not going to fight WOTCs battles - they can fight those themselves, in court, with actual defendants.
I think we're right back to mixing up our terms again, Quaker. Remember, according to WotC:
Proxy = Official substitute provided by a judge at a tournament
Counterfeit = Copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card
Play-test = Stand-in for a card that would not pass as authentic under even the most causal scrutiny.
I assume you were discussing "counterfeits" in your last post, but I can't be sure. If so, I urge you to care about the issue. The magic economy is heading for a bad place if people keep funding counterfeiters.
I think we're right back to mixing up our terms again, Quaker. Remember, according to WotC:
Proxy = Official substitute provided by a judge at a tournament
Counterfeit = Copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card
Play-test = Stand-in for a card that would not pass as authentic under even the most causal scrutiny.
I assume you were discussing "counterfeits" in your last post, but I can't be sure. If so, I urge you to care about the issue. The magic economy is heading for a bad place if people keep funding counterfeiters.
I understand you're trying to be helpful but yeah, I could give a ***** about "official definitions" too. I don't care where they delineate, as it's pretty clear that they'll change definitions and rules as they see fit, without community input. I used to tell kids at the shop that counterfeiting was bad but now I only care that I don't buy counterfeits because they're worthless. If other kids want to do that, I'm not their dad. If the economy tanks, I don't care anymore. That's WOTC's problem, not mine.
There's obviously a problem when it comes to selling or trading these "very good proxies." By extension, buying these proxies exacerbates the problem because you're funding and encouraging the sellers to produce more. If you want a good stand-in card, print it out on a home printer and glue it to a basic land. Printing a copy of a card with a commercial printer on a real or real-looking magic card is a counterfeit, plain and simple. Just because you're not selling your fake Louis Vuitton Speedy 25 or Frauda handbag doesn't mean it isn't a counterfeit, it just means that you're not a criminal. It doesn't mean you're not sourcing the counterfeiters, because you're still giving them money, and it doesn't exonerate you.
I, too, am guilty of contributing to the problem, because I have ordered a handful of counterfeits to educate myself. But at least I don't go around denying it like I'm not doing anything wrong and there isn't a problem.
Quick! Call the IP attorneys!
Disclaimer: I am not an IP attorneys.
The point is that, as a player, I don't think we particularly care about protecting Wizards from people who photocopy a mana symbol. When you play Booze Cube, that doesn't threaten the integrity of the game. We should, I would hope, be able to agree that counterfeit cards have real and dangerous repercussions for all of us (whoops you traded your cards for fakes, SUCKS TO BE YOU) and what Wizards is now calling "Playest" cards do not pose this risk.
And, in the event anyone cares to chastise or flame me, I really don't care. EDH is the only format I play, and I spend $3000-$4000 on the hobby every year. Wizards, ebay sellers, online stores and LGS make plenty of money off of me. But I'm currently working on EDH deck #21, and I've only got a grand total of 18 Revised Duals, so that was what I primarily chose to purchase as proxy, although I did also get 9 other cards, which I also happened to already own real versions of. I would never try to pass them off in a tournament, or sell them, because frankly I've yet to see any proxy convincing enough to pass for real. Considering that these cards rarely leave my house or my friends house, I have no qualms about nice quality proxies. EVERY proxy I have, I have a real copy of, I just choose not to have to strip one deck to complete another.
Why would you buy a [card that tries to look like a real card] instead of [card that is a better-looking version of a real card with cool custom art]? Doesn't the latter type of card fill the same function without any risk of some poor schmuck getting stuck with a forgery down the road when you sell your collection?
As for "some poor schmuck getting stuck with the cards down the road", I have no intention of selling. I've played CCG's uninterrupted since 1995, which is probably longer than many of the people on these forums have been alive. I still have all my Decipher Star Wars CCG cards and LOTR cards, and those haven't been made in 15 years (in the case of SW). The point is, CCG's have been my hobby for the last 21 years; I'm not selling those games, and I won't sell my Magic anytime soon. But again, to reiterate, these won't pass the sniff test. And (and this is not meant to be boastful), if in the unlikely event I DO choose to sell my MTG collection, currently estimated at $25,000, why would I try to sneak these in and call into question the authenticity of my other cards that I own, such as 6 Wastelands, the 18 Duals, the 2 Moats, my foil Rishadan Port, my playset of Cradles, my pair of Mana Drains, and my near mint Mishra's Workshop? I would take any fakes out before selling.
I'm certainly no lawyer, and MY definitions won't hold up in court, but to me the difference between a proxy and a counterfeit is this: a proxy is designed to STAND IN or represent something else. A counterfeit is designed to fool someone unsuspecting, uninformed, or lacking in general information for the purpose of financial gain for the person attempting to achieve the ruse.
Since these cards are standing in for me (I own originals of all) and since I know the type of person I am (I contribute to charity, I've participated in Habitat for Humanity, I spearheaded a canned food drive raising 7000 pounds of food for a local shelter) I know in my heart I will never try to trade or sell these cards while presenting them as authentic Magic cards. I'm not a thief, never have been. I make an annual salary of approx 80k. I don't need the headache that would come with trying to pass off fake cards as real ones, especially because while these look very real at arms length or across the table, don't look or feel all that real when handled.
WotC has recently revised their definition slightly to allow "playtest" cards in casual play and unsanctioned tournaments, but they're very clear that anything beyond sharpie on cards or printed paper is still considered counterfeit, and that selling "playtest cards" is still not okay.
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As for getting foil versions of these cards to differentiate them from originals but keep the original art...why? To prevent the possibility of these being passed off as originals? I don't know how many times I have to say this. They don't need to be differentiated. In a sleeve, and from a distance across the table, these look pretty legitimate. In your hand, and unsleeved, these would fool no one.
Bolded the relevant parts.
If it's using official art, it's already skirting the lines.
If it's being sold, commercially, it is way, way over the line.
Currently Playing:
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http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/resources.aspx?x=magic/rules/cardpolicy
The first sentence says that a play test card is -commonly- a basic land, but not that it has to be. The specific requirements are: no official art, and they don't pass for real under even a cursory glance. A hand drawn version of a card meets those requirements.
The last sentence doesn't refer to a defining characteristic of a card, but to what Wizards does and does not police.
So, yeah, it's true that a play test card including a mana symbol may be a copyright violation. But it is NOT a counterfeit according to Wizards definition.
Disclaimer: I am an IP attorney.
The point I was trying to make is that a person who commits copyright infringement, patent infringement, etc, opens themselves up to liability.
I suppose that doesn't matter much if you're 16, have no assets, and will likely remain insolvent for the next decade.
But it probably should matter more to you if you are further along in your career. Why expose yourself to liability for a couple of bucks?
Many people don't care about counterfeits/proxies because they want to play Magic the Gathering instead of Wallet the Spending. As long as people are aware of the fakes when selling or trading I could not care less about sitting down in front of someone who has 75 fake cards.
(EDIT: And, even if "everyone is aware" of the fake nature of a counterfeit at your kitchen table, the fact that that counterfeit card exists means that eventually it may pass into the hands of someone who will try to deceive people in a trade, sale, or tournament. And, like I said above, the creator got paid for it. It's not innocent just because you verbally tell someone your card isn't legit.)
As a player, I don't care if someone has a bunch of custom-art versions of Vintage staples in their cube, or even at a Magic event, as long as they're just play-test (doesn't look anything like real cards) because those don't have the same risk.
And driving your car over the speed limit is also breaking the law. Personally I don't know what your intention was by stating this. Could you elaborate more please?
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
I was anti-proxy until proxy-gate. Now I could care less. I'm not going to fight WOTCs battles - they can fight those themselves, in court, with actual defendants.
Proxy = Official substitute provided by a judge at a tournament
Counterfeit = Copy or reproduction of an actual Magic card
Play-test = Stand-in for a card that would not pass as authentic under even the most causal scrutiny.
I assume you were discussing "counterfeits" in your last post, but I can't be sure. If so, I urge you to care about the issue. The magic economy is heading for a bad place if people keep funding counterfeiters.
I understand you're trying to be helpful but yeah, I could give a ***** about "official definitions" too. I don't care where they delineate, as it's pretty clear that they'll change definitions and rules as they see fit, without community input. I used to tell kids at the shop that counterfeiting was bad but now I only care that I don't buy counterfeits because they're worthless. If other kids want to do that, I'm not their dad. If the economy tanks, I don't care anymore. That's WOTC's problem, not mine.
I, too, am guilty of contributing to the problem, because I have ordered a handful of counterfeits to educate myself. But at least I don't go around denying it like I'm not doing anything wrong and there isn't a problem.