An Ebay Seller has listed tons of proxies (labeled as "reproductions"). Is it actually legal to create and sell these, regardless of disclosing their nature? I've seen alt-art and anime foil proxies and whatnot, but this is basically putting counterfeits into circulation via eBay. Should this be reported?
Let me chime in to give some advice to people who want to play Magic on a budget.
So, you want to put the Power Nine in your cube. Or, you want to put a Candelabra or Cradle in your Commander deck. But, wait, who wants to spend $10,000.00 on a few old beat up cards? You sure don't. And, who wants to put an ugly sharpied land in your box? Ain't no one who likes that. The pretty pictures are part of the experience. We're not looking to grind for tournament data, we're looking to have a good time with our buddies!
I feel ya. You want a good-looking, good-feeling proxy. That's a fair thing to want.
But, hold on there, sport. There's absolutely no need for the proxies to be indistinguishable from real cards. It's the truth so nice I'll say it twice: There's absolutely no need for the proxies to be indistinguishable from real cards. If you want to pay a craftsman to make you up a cool looking proxy, then you're in luck: there are lots of people who do exactly this. Here, I'll even give you a link to a bunch of em: https://www.etsy.com/search?q=magic the gathering proxy You can go here and order some very good looking home-made versions of popular expensive cards at a very reasonable price. Stick em in your cube and watch your play-mates react with smiles and compliments about how much cooler these look than old beat-up versions of cards from 1994. Plus, if they spill beer or Mountain Dew on em... so much less the problem.
What you should not do -- what you should never do -- is give your money to someone who is trying to make near-perfect copies of actual cards. Why not? Remember that old saying: There's absolutely no need for the proxies to be indistinguishable from real cards. The only legitimate reason for wanting a carbon copy of a real card is to try and pass it off as real. In other words, to try and lie to someone. Sneak into a tournament and play the disqualification lottery. Trade them off for higher value. Whatever. Even if you're honest and you would never do that, by buying the cards you're financing the industry that allows this and putting cards into circulation that will some day be put to improper uses.
That's the bottom line, friends. If you want good-looking cards made in someone's basement, you can get those. But, as a player, I'm pleading with you that you draw the line at real-looking cards -- those are COUNTERFEITS, not PROXIES. You don't need em, and you're fueling a horrible problem in the trading and tournament community.
Footnote: I'm not suggesting the Etsy folks are not also violating WotC's copyright. They probably are, so you probably shouldn't support them, either. But, as a player, I would rather people bought those for their personal screwin' around time than they finance the Chinese and related creeps who are pumping fake cards into circulation.
If you want to pay a craftsman to make you up a cool looking proxy, then you're in luck: there are lots of people who do exactly this. Here, I'll even give you a link to a bunch of em: https://www.etsy.com/search?q=magic the gathering proxy
Of note, there's at least one seller on that Etsy link (USProxyShop) selling what appear to be counterfeits.
Huh. Yeah, I guess they've infiltrated even Etsy with their fake goods. Well, don't buy from him or her. Go use one of the many other people who are NOT trying to make it so that I'm scared to order cards online anymore.
Tread carefully, I once thanked a poster for linking to a Etsy-esque site selling really nice proxies and got a ban for a week for "promoting illegal activity".
Oh? I guess we should ask for some direction from the moderators on this, then.
My suggestion is that showing people they have ways to buy non-counterfeit cards is a good way to help defuse the demand for counterfeits and helps out the community. Making a photocopy of a mana symbol may technically be a copyright violation, but from my perspective as a player, buying someone's home-brew artwork on a proxy is worlds different from buying a counterfeit card from China. Less damaging to the game and all of us.
Nevertheless, I'll stop talking about this kind of thing if the mods so desire.
By all means it can be discussed, as long as the topic stays on track. This thread is not in violation of our rules; it is actually very helpful in trying to stop the counterfits from making it into circulation. A big "high 5" goes out to the OP for bringing it to the community's attention.
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Proxies are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Proxies do not include any graphical reproduction of their intended substitutes.
Counterfeits
Counterfeits are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use.
The bolded part is for emphasis. I would strongly discourage contacting Etsy sellers to produce "proxies" for you, as they are, technically and officially, counterfeits and are in violation of copyright law. Even those that do not appear to be genuine reproductions.
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First, no, custom-art print jobs are not necessarily "Counterfeits" within WotC's definition you cited. They say the following: "Counterfeits are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards[.]" Is a total custom-art job really a "copy" or "reproduction" of a real card? Seems like a fine thing for people to argue about, but hardly a sure thing.
Second, yes, printing or profiting from any of WotC's creative materials is probably a problem if they choose to enforce their copyright or trademark rights. Like I said, photocopying a mana symbol is probably not really kosher with their policies. That doesn't mean that everyone who draws a black mana symbol on a card they blanked using acetone is going to be sued. There is a spectrum here.
Third, however, it's a really bad idea to conflate the words "proxy" and "counterfeit." You're claiming all proxies are counterfeits. There are others (like the OP!) who say that all counterfeits are proxies. A good first step in stopping the tide of truly destructive fake cards is making sure people understand the difference. If the terms keep getting used interchangeably, it's that much easier for people to explain away supporting truly dangerous activity.
Ignoring what WotC cares about for a minute, think about what WE AS PLAYERS care about. We don't want to risk people entering tournaments with fake cards and getting DQed after having lied to us about their deck. We don't want to trade with someone only to find out we got a fake card. We want to order cards online without fear we're gonna get a chinese knockoff. When it comes to THESE ISSUES, a totally-custom job is absolutely fine.
So would the crosses and pitchforks come out if someone bought a set of these....proxies to make a framed art piece to put in my own gaming room? There's no way in hell I'm taking a real power 9 and gluing them to cardstock and framing it all together.
By all means it can be discussed, as long as the topic stays on track. This thread is not in violation of our rules; it is actually very helpful in trying to stop the counterfits from making it into circulation. A big "high 5" goes out to the OP for bringing it to the community's attention.
There are others (like the OP!) who say that all counterfeits are proxies.
I used the term proxy as that's how these are being marketed, and didn't want to use harsher language before verifying their [il]legality. I suppose all counterfeits could be considered a subset of all proxies... but that doesn't make them OK, or not fakes, or whatever.
So would the crosses and pitchforks come out if someone bought a set of these....proxies to make a framed art piece to put in my own gaming room? There's no way in hell I'm taking a real power 9 and gluing them to cardstock and framing it all together.
You'd be giving money to people who are actively attempting to ruin the game. Find another seller, one who isn't attempting to create exact copies.
Yeah, admitting to that will draw you some ire.
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So would the crosses and pitchforks come out if someone bought a set of these....proxies to make a framed art piece to put in my own gaming room? There's no way in hell I'm taking a real power 9 and gluing them to cardstock and framing it all together.
You'd be giving money to people who are actively attempting to ruin the game. Find another seller, one who isn't attempting to create exact copies.
Yeah, admitting to that will draw you some ire.
People who make or use proxies do not ruin the game. Nor are they "attempting" to ruin it.
If someone wants a foil Black Lotus for their all foil cube they aren't ruining anything. When they are actually using the card to, you know, play the game, they are supporting the game and helping it grow.
So would the crosses and pitchforks come out if someone bought a set of these....proxies to make a framed art piece to put in my own gaming room? There's no way in hell I'm taking a real power 9 and gluing them to cardstock and framing it all together.
You'd be giving money to people who are actively attempting to ruin the game. Find another seller, one who isn't attempting to create exact copies.
Yeah, admitting to that will draw you some ire.
People who make or use proxies do not ruin the game. Nor are they "attempting" to ruin it.
If someone wants a foil Black Lotus for their all foil cube they aren't ruining anything. When they are actually using the card to, you know, play the game, they are supporting the game and helping it grow.
The OP is asking about counterfeits.
Proxies are fine. Counterfeits are not.
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This guy got a fake misty rainforest off tcg, It's almost perfect, if it was in a matt sleeve it would almost be impossible to tell it was fake. The "proxies" are getting really good
An Ebay Seller has listed tons of proxies (labeled as "reproductions"). Is it actually legal to create and sell these, regardless of disclosing their nature? I've seen alt-art and anime foil proxies and whatnot, but this is basically putting counterfeits into circulation via eBay. Should this be reported?
Link Removed.
- Rai
Link should not have been removed, now we have no context, can't see the seller/auction to avoid... :/
Did you know it is not illegal to "deface" money in the US? It is a common misconception. I say that to also add, you can write anything you want on a dollar bill like put that's a million dollars but you just have to also make sure people recognize that it is not legal tender. You can draw Cthulu on the front of a nickel and sell for $12 but you just have to sell it as a novelty and not money. I don't see why it should be any different in this case. He clearly said these are not real cards and shouldn't be used as such. If he added a same print at the bottom saying "Not to be used in tournaments" that'd be even better but it still seems fine to me.
*Edit: Turns out even clearly labeled proxies are "counterfeit" to WotC. It seems that wizards is even stodgier than the US of A. That's not cool.
Drawing on a nickel, or writing on a dollar bill would be considered "altering" -- you're taking an existing product (which you yourself did not make) and adding your own artistic flair to it.
I'm sure you know it's illegal to print your own money -- it's called "counterfeiting", which is exactly what the links in the OP were doing.
From a casual glance, they look like the real thing, and there's absolutely nothing from stopping a person from buying these "proxies" (as you so adamantly call them), and then trying to resell them as the real thing.
I don't get how people can defend these "proxies" that are such blatant rip-offs of the real thing.
Did you know it is not illegal to "deface" money in the US? It is a common misconception. I say that to also add, you can write anything you want on a dollar bill like put that's a million dollars but you just have to also make sure people recognize that it is not legal tender. You can draw Cthulu on the front of a nickel and sell for $12 but you just have to sell it as a novelty and not money.
Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or
Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States, any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished, falsified, scaled, or lightened—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
On topic: I'm just voting my support for what MaximumC said way up there. Proxies, while frowned upon by WotC, have a casual function. Proxies that are intended to look like the real thing clearly have a different intended function.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
What we really care about is that DCI-sanctioned events use only authentic Magic cards, and that we stop counterfeits.
Now, they probably still don't want people selling cards where they've printed the mana symbols on there -- those are Wizard's copyright -- but it's nice to get official confirmation that the Booze Cube is not something they're going to be going after.
A person who makes proxies of magic cards and sells them on ebay is liable for copyright infringement, trademark infringement, and likely patent infringement because Magic the Gathering is patented.
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Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
Currently Playing:
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The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
I did as well. Thanks for the replies.
Legacy: D+T
Oldschool: BW Deadguy BW
Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
So, you want to put the Power Nine in your cube. Or, you want to put a Candelabra or Cradle in your Commander deck. But, wait, who wants to spend $10,000.00 on a few old beat up cards? You sure don't. And, who wants to put an ugly sharpied land in your box? Ain't no one who likes that. The pretty pictures are part of the experience. We're not looking to grind for tournament data, we're looking to have a good time with our buddies!
I feel ya. You want a good-looking, good-feeling proxy. That's a fair thing to want.
But, hold on there, sport. There's absolutely no need for the proxies to be indistinguishable from real cards. It's the truth so nice I'll say it twice: There's absolutely no need for the proxies to be indistinguishable from real cards. If you want to pay a craftsman to make you up a cool looking proxy, then you're in luck: there are lots of people who do exactly this. Here, I'll even give you a link to a bunch of em: https://www.etsy.com/search?q=magic the gathering proxy You can go here and order some very good looking home-made versions of popular expensive cards at a very reasonable price. Stick em in your cube and watch your play-mates react with smiles and compliments about how much cooler these look than old beat-up versions of cards from 1994. Plus, if they spill beer or Mountain Dew on em... so much less the problem.
What you should not do -- what you should never do -- is give your money to someone who is trying to make near-perfect copies of actual cards. Why not? Remember that old saying: There's absolutely no need for the proxies to be indistinguishable from real cards. The only legitimate reason for wanting a carbon copy of a real card is to try and pass it off as real. In other words, to try and lie to someone. Sneak into a tournament and play the disqualification lottery. Trade them off for higher value. Whatever. Even if you're honest and you would never do that, by buying the cards you're financing the industry that allows this and putting cards into circulation that will some day be put to improper uses.
That's the bottom line, friends. If you want good-looking cards made in someone's basement, you can get those. But, as a player, I'm pleading with you that you draw the line at real-looking cards -- those are COUNTERFEITS, not PROXIES. You don't need em, and you're fueling a horrible problem in the trading and tournament community.
Footnote: I'm not suggesting the Etsy folks are not also violating WotC's copyright. They probably are, so you probably shouldn't support them, either. But, as a player, I would rather people bought those for their personal screwin' around time than they finance the Chinese and related creeps who are pumping fake cards into circulation.
Of note, there's at least one seller on that Etsy link (USProxyShop) selling what appear to be counterfeits.
Legacy: D+T
Oldschool: BW Deadguy BW
Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
My suggestion is that showing people they have ways to buy non-counterfeit cards is a good way to help defuse the demand for counterfeits and helps out the community. Making a photocopy of a mana symbol may technically be a copyright violation, but from my perspective as a player, buying someone's home-brew artwork on a proxy is worlds different from buying a counterfeit card from China. Less damaging to the game and all of us.
Nevertheless, I'll stop talking about this kind of thing if the mods so desire.
The funniest thing about this particular signature is that by the time you realize it doesn't say anything it's too late to stop reading it....
Proxies
Proxies are substitute cards created solely by judges in sanctioned tournaments pursuant to the official tournament rules. These substitutes are allowed when authorized game cards become unplayable during a sanctioned tournament because of damage or excessive wear. Proxies do not include any graphical reproduction of their intended substitutes.
Counterfeits
Counterfeits are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards, whether or not they are identified as non-genuine. The creation and distribution of counterfeits violate United States and international copyright laws and negatively affects the integrity of Wizards’ trading card games. Counterfeits are strictly prohibited, even for personal, non-commercial use.
The bolded part is for emphasis. I would strongly discourage contacting Etsy sellers to produce "proxies" for you, as they are, technically and officially, counterfeits and are in violation of copyright law. Even those that do not appear to be genuine reproductions.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
First, no, custom-art print jobs are not necessarily "Counterfeits" within WotC's definition you cited. They say the following: "Counterfeits are copies or reproductions of actual Wizards trading cards[.]" Is a total custom-art job really a "copy" or "reproduction" of a real card? Seems like a fine thing for people to argue about, but hardly a sure thing.
Second, yes, printing or profiting from any of WotC's creative materials is probably a problem if they choose to enforce their copyright or trademark rights. Like I said, photocopying a mana symbol is probably not really kosher with their policies. That doesn't mean that everyone who draws a black mana symbol on a card they blanked using acetone is going to be sued. There is a spectrum here.
Third, however, it's a really bad idea to conflate the words "proxy" and "counterfeit." You're claiming all proxies are counterfeits. There are others (like the OP!) who say that all counterfeits are proxies. A good first step in stopping the tide of truly destructive fake cards is making sure people understand the difference. If the terms keep getting used interchangeably, it's that much easier for people to explain away supporting truly dangerous activity.
Ignoring what WotC cares about for a minute, think about what WE AS PLAYERS care about. We don't want to risk people entering tournaments with fake cards and getting DQed after having lied to us about their deck. We don't want to trade with someone only to find out we got a fake card. We want to order cards online without fear we're gonna get a chinese knockoff. When it comes to THESE ISSUES, a totally-custom job is absolutely fine.
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
Appreciate it, Duxx.
I used the term proxy as that's how these are being marketed, and didn't want to use harsher language before verifying their [il]legality. I suppose all counterfeits could be considered a subset of all proxies... but that doesn't make them OK, or not fakes, or whatever.
Legacy: D+T
Oldschool: BW Deadguy BW
Magic player/collector since 1994
Proud supporter of #MtgForLife!
You'd be giving money to people who are actively attempting to ruin the game. Find another seller, one who isn't attempting to create exact copies.
Yeah, admitting to that will draw you some ire.
People who make or use proxies do not ruin the game. Nor are they "attempting" to ruin it.
If someone wants a foil Black Lotus for their all foil cube they aren't ruining anything. When they are actually using the card to, you know, play the game, they are supporting the game and helping it grow.
BUWGRChilds PlayGRWUB
BUWGR Highlander GRWUB
UBSquee's Shapeshifting PetBU
BW Multiplayer Control WB
RG Changeling GR
UR Mana FlareRU
UMerfolkU
B MBMC B
The OP is asking about counterfeits.
Proxies are fine. Counterfeits are not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBkZfHWtL5Q
This guy got a fake misty rainforest off tcg, It's almost perfect, if it was in a matt sleeve it would almost be impossible to tell it was fake. The "proxies" are getting really good
Link should not have been removed, now we have no context, can't see the seller/auction to avoid... :/
My current trade binder.
"People most likely to cry "troll" are those who can't fathom holding a position for reasons unrelated to how they want to be perceived"
*Edit: Turns out even clearly labeled proxies are "counterfeit" to WotC. It seems that wizards is even stodgier than the US of A. That's not cool.
I'm sure you know it's illegal to print your own money -- it's called "counterfeiting", which is exactly what the links in the OP were doing.
From a casual glance, they look like the real thing, and there's absolutely nothing from stopping a person from buying these "proxies" (as you so adamantly call them), and then trying to resell them as the real thing.
I don't get how people can defend these "proxies" that are such blatant rip-offs of the real thing.
On topic: I'm just voting my support for what MaximumC said way up there. Proxies, while frowned upon by WotC, have a casual function. Proxies that are intended to look like the real thing clearly have a different intended function.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
And, generally, it looks like Wizards agrees with this as well.
Cite: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14
Now, they probably still don't want people selling cards where they've printed the mana symbols on there -- those are Wizard's copyright -- but it's nice to get official confirmation that the Booze Cube is not something they're going to be going after.