Seriously! So I heard that the same guy who bought out LED's is doing this to Traitors. I'm calling it now, his next target will be Gaea's Cradle. Get 'em now...
The Abyss is another card that I think is primed for this. Low circulation, expensive, unique effect and probably undervalued. Moat was already hit.
Good call on the Cradle as well. I could see that card being spiked as well.
But what decks even play this? If anything it's a commander card and isn't being moved nearly as much as moat or cradle.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
But what decks even play this? If anything it's a commander card and isn't being moved nearly as much as moat or cradle.
You see one or two in UB Tezzeret on a pretty regular basis and Enchantress occasionally splashes black these days. Neither of those is tearing up top 8s but they're both reasonably popular tier 2 decks. I could see that one bought out. I also agree that it's probably behind Cradle.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
It's funny you say this because I was going to come in here to say that City of Traitors and Candelabra of Tawnos are next. With City, I had been trying to get two more for $100 each, but missed the slow spike and had to pay $115 each. Ever since Moat and LED, I have been considering targets and I just needed 2 more to complete Legacy Eldrazi.
I have been trying to sell a Tabernacle on High End Facebook for a while now, so hopefully the bump in price will help (although it sucks for me I didn't get LEDs because I only needed LEDs and Infernal Tutor to play Storm).
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Mox Diamond, more likely. Sees more play than Candle and it's the only significant sub $100 RL four-of staple left to snatch. And if we're going for "entry" decks to the format, Academy Rector and Recurring Nightmare are RL cards that are used in Nic Fit, one of the cheapest decks available right now so many people start with it.
Gaea's Cradle is also another one, although it's from a much more popular large set so it might be harder to corner.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, all these buyouts are just going to make Chinese counterfeits more socially acceptable. It happens with every luxury item. You make it desirable but unobtainable for most people,and some factory in China is going to pump out knock offs and eventually nobody will care.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm fairly confident I will think of something to say. Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
The issue is that technically only genuine product is allowed at sanctioned events and people, especially for Legacy, buy product to play them at tournaments. So unlike a fake bag or Chinese brand cellphone you're outright cheating if you buy fakes to play tournaments with them. I won't go into the ethics of such a behaviour but that's definitely not the same situation.
I can see most events in the future allowing proxies and simply not sanctioning them, but that would be a drastic downgrade in the health of the format and would even lead to an decline of it rather than expand the playerbase by making it more "accessible". Counterfeits are not the way to go, even if they end up being so good they're indistinguishable. Counterfeits being sold maliciously is one of the worst things that can happen to someone wanting to get into the format despite the inflated prices and we all know that even a 1:1 perfect replica will still be a worthless knockoff simply because of the intent of the seller. Would you be willing to buy a 1:1 perfect copy of a Moat for the same price of a genuine one if you, for some reason, are unable to locate any genuine one in time for a sanctioned tournament? How would you feel if you overheard from someone close to the seller that the 4 LED you just bought turn out to be printed by a third party last year as opposed to being genuine ones despite being otherwise identical?
There are many parallels in other markets. I would be pretty outraged if the Parmesan cheese I bought at a premium with the assurance from the seller that this is genuine, PDO certified Parmigiano-Reggiano turned out to be made 1 hour away from my home for a fraction of the price despite them tasting pretty much the same when grated.
This is reaching a tipping point. If new flow of players to Legacy was constricted before, this will ******* choke it out. I'm not sure about the Legacy scene in other places, but if you live in my state, you get to play Legacy maybe once a year - if you're willing to drive a few hours. I've already stopped paying attention to Legacy pricing, barring the cards I already have. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I doubt that's going to stick. Outside of EDH, how much demand is there for Enchantress? With Most having exploded too, I don't see too many people needing Sanctums.
Buy-outs make sense for cards that see Legacy play - LED, Cradle, City, Mox, Moat. Cards like Nethervoid, Abyss, Sanctum, and Chains see such marginal play they will be very difficult to move at inflated prices.
LED is back down to $150 now at least. Hopefully these prices don't stick. If the cards can't be sold at their inflated prices, the prices will come down to where people buy them again. It does you no good to buy up the world's supply of Gaea's Cradles if no one is then willing to buy them from you. Investors don't want 278 Gaea's Cradles, they want cash and there's a certain point where the market is just not going to sustain those kinds of prices and adjust.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Does this lead to everything on RL that's currently played in some deck to absurd prices? What about dual lands, is another price increase imminent?
Time Spiral, Metalworker, Mox D., Intuition and similar all rose at some point already. Any educated guess, if another rise is on the horizon?
Dual lands are tough to gauge. There is more demand for them than almost any other Legacy staple. That said, there are also more of them in circulation than most other staples. It's tough for them to be bought out. They tend to increase in price naturally as supply dwindles. Once it hits a certain point, more people will cash in and you will see more hit the market and prices will naturally drop to adjust.
Most of the staples that are being targets of buyouts just didn't have the print run that duals have had.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
[quote from="Queeg »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/market-street/market-street-cafe/651725-the-legacy-price-discussion-thread?comment=360"]Dual lands are tough to gauge. There is more demand for them than almost any other Legacy staple. That said, there are also more of them in circulation than most other staples. It's tough for them to be bought out. They tend to increase in price naturally as supply dwindles. Once it hits a certain point, more people will cash in and you will see more hit the market and prices will naturally drop to adjust.
Most of the staples that are being targets of buyouts just didn't have the print run that duals have had.
A buyout is less likely for dual lands, as their "market cap" is much bigger (specially when you take into account FWB, FBB, Unlimited, Beta and Alpha), but it's not needed to make their price go up. Buyouts just accelerate the process. When people realize that the Sea/City of Traitors (or Gaea's Cradle, Lion's Eye Diamond, Serra's Sanctum, etc.) ratio is lower than before, they'll be more willing to buy Seas (or trade their City of Traitors for Seas). Then that will also make the P9/dual lands ratio smaller, which will make the P9 more expensive afterwards.
Another thing that I think may work against a buyout of duals, aside from the things mentioned already is that it's harder to corner the market due to the fact that there are 10 of them. Cornering one doesn't really lead to a panicked buyout of the rest, and some decks that would want multiple types of duals may flex the numbers to try to help work around having to pick up additional copies of the spiked one. They're going to keep slowly trending upwards organically, but I don't see a true spike across the board being as feasible as an artificial market manipulation.
Seriously! So I heard that the same guy who bought out LED's is doing this to Traitors. I'm calling it now, his next target will be Gaea's Cradle. Get 'em now...
This guy admitted to being a scummy trader in the interview, he took advantage of others while trading. Now he's doing this instead. I've seen many arguments justifying the behavior (free market, it's legal, if I don't someone else will, the stores have been doing it for years etc etc). He's only out for himself and a very small group of friends (if you believe he sells at the pre-inflated price to those who genuinely need the card).
Well, I mean, this has been the norm since at least 2012 or so. Perfect information, perfect card availability = VERY EASY for people to buyout cards and try to see what the maximum the market can possibly bear. This is a bad thing, but it's not new. What makes you think THIS is the tipping point?
Well, I mean, this has been the norm since at least 2012 or so. Perfect information, perfect card availability = VERY EASY for people to buyout cards and try to see what the maximum the market can possibly bear. This is a bad thing, but it's not new. What makes you think THIS is the tipping point?
This may not be THE tipping point, but we're inexorably moving towards A tipping point.
What bothers me are the flashing lights and the enticement to get into the speculation game or get left behind. The websites, the youtubers, etc. Once it becomes "the Truth" that reserve list staples will only rise and never fall...we'll start seeing more copycats - copycats who don't even play Magic. That's when you start seeing parallels to 90's Comic Books and Baseball Cards really start to take hold, when people who knew jack ***** were buying 40 copies of Spawn # 1 to stash away because some VHS tape they paid $19.99 for told them to. I wonder how many people bought EMA to stash for a few years...and then I wonder how many of them don't play Magic.
So anyways, it's worrisome to start attracting people just because of the financial aspect and "guaranteed" returns...and people not realizing how Death and Taxes got it's name.
I only worry about this because the bubble bursting may not just damage speculators and people trying to make money off of product printed in the last few years. It may take down shops and communities, lessening demand Magic to the point that new product may not be profitable. Who knows...I just know that I'm not buying any of these newly inflated cards.
Good call on the Cradle as well. I could see that card being spiked as well.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
But what decks even play this? If anything it's a commander card and isn't being moved nearly as much as moat or cradle.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
It's funny you say this because I was going to come in here to say that City of Traitors and Candelabra of Tawnos are next. With City, I had been trying to get two more for $100 each, but missed the slow spike and had to pay $115 each. Ever since Moat and LED, I have been considering targets and I just needed 2 more to complete Legacy Eldrazi.
I have been trying to sell a Tabernacle on High End Facebook for a while now, so hopefully the bump in price will help (although it sucks for me I didn't get LEDs because I only needed LEDs and Infernal Tutor to play Storm).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Gaea's Cradle is also another one, although it's from a much more popular large set so it might be harder to corner.
The Abyss is a staple in old school formats like Magic 93/94.
For example: http://www.vintagemagic.com/blog/old-school-magic-chapter-2-the-history-of-the-deck/
Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
Sign & Share Petition To Fix MTG: Arena's Economy: https://goo.gl/z8fop8
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
One person makes a video and shows how easily it's done and now everyone is going to do this I'm afraid.
When will this madness stop...
I hear Serra's Sanctum is the next one...
Active Player: 1994-1999, 2016-
Sign & Share Petition To Fix MTG: Arena's Economy: https://goo.gl/z8fop8
I can see most events in the future allowing proxies and simply not sanctioning them, but that would be a drastic downgrade in the health of the format and would even lead to an decline of it rather than expand the playerbase by making it more "accessible". Counterfeits are not the way to go, even if they end up being so good they're indistinguishable. Counterfeits being sold maliciously is one of the worst things that can happen to someone wanting to get into the format despite the inflated prices and we all know that even a 1:1 perfect replica will still be a worthless knockoff simply because of the intent of the seller. Would you be willing to buy a 1:1 perfect copy of a Moat for the same price of a genuine one if you, for some reason, are unable to locate any genuine one in time for a sanctioned tournament? How would you feel if you overheard from someone close to the seller that the 4 LED you just bought turn out to be printed by a third party last year as opposed to being genuine ones despite being otherwise identical?
There are many parallels in other markets. I would be pretty outraged if the Parmesan cheese I bought at a premium with the assurance from the seller that this is genuine, PDO certified Parmigiano-Reggiano turned out to be made 1 hour away from my home for a fraction of the price despite them tasting pretty much the same when grated.
Buy-outs make sense for cards that see Legacy play - LED, Cradle, City, Mox, Moat. Cards like Nethervoid, Abyss, Sanctum, and Chains see such marginal play they will be very difficult to move at inflated prices.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Sure. And then Vintage cards will follow.
Dual lands are tough to gauge. There is more demand for them than almost any other Legacy staple. That said, there are also more of them in circulation than most other staples. It's tough for them to be bought out. They tend to increase in price naturally as supply dwindles. Once it hits a certain point, more people will cash in and you will see more hit the market and prices will naturally drop to adjust.
Most of the staples that are being targets of buyouts just didn't have the print run that duals have had.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
A buyout is less likely for dual lands, as their "market cap" is much bigger (specially when you take into account FWB, FBB, Unlimited, Beta and Alpha), but it's not needed to make their price go up. Buyouts just accelerate the process. When people realize that the Sea/City of Traitors (or Gaea's Cradle, Lion's Eye Diamond, Serra's Sanctum, etc.) ratio is lower than before, they'll be more willing to buy Seas (or trade their City of Traitors for Seas). Then that will also make the P9/dual lands ratio smaller, which will make the P9 more expensive afterwards.
Draft my cube! (630 cards)
He gave an interview to MTGPrice.com:
I guess everyone needs their 15 mins of fame
Well, I mean, this has been the norm since at least 2012 or so. Perfect information, perfect card availability = VERY EASY for people to buyout cards and try to see what the maximum the market can possibly bear. This is a bad thing, but it's not new. What makes you think THIS is the tipping point?
This may not be THE tipping point, but we're inexorably moving towards A tipping point.
What bothers me are the flashing lights and the enticement to get into the speculation game or get left behind. The websites, the youtubers, etc. Once it becomes "the Truth" that reserve list staples will only rise and never fall...we'll start seeing more copycats - copycats who don't even play Magic. That's when you start seeing parallels to 90's Comic Books and Baseball Cards really start to take hold, when people who knew jack ***** were buying 40 copies of Spawn # 1 to stash away because some VHS tape they paid $19.99 for told them to. I wonder how many people bought EMA to stash for a few years...and then I wonder how many of them don't play Magic.
So anyways, it's worrisome to start attracting people just because of the financial aspect and "guaranteed" returns...and people not realizing how Death and Taxes got it's name.
I only worry about this because the bubble bursting may not just damage speculators and people trying to make money off of product printed in the last few years. It may take down shops and communities, lessening demand Magic to the point that new product may not be profitable. Who knows...I just know that I'm not buying any of these newly inflated cards.