If I'm not wrong, Death and Taxes and Merfolk don't use any Reserved List card. Wizards could keep printing new cards that make decks with 0 Reserved List cards competitive enough.
Death and Taxes and Merfolk use none. Neither does Burn. Goblins doesn't (at least the monocolored versions). If they had printed Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Goblin Guide, and Chalice of the Void (either in here or in MM2), these decks would all be fairly accessible right now.
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It's not an issue of getting Forces and the like to the $20 or even $50 range, it's getting the RL cards out of the $300+ range. People were ok with Forces being $75. Sure, that was a bit on the expensive side for many, but Force at $75 wasn't the barrier, it's the RL cards pushing $200-$300. You can make the non RL stuff as cheap as you want, and sure, it helps, but if it causes all your other RL cardboard to go up even more, you're not really accomplishing anything. There's no viable substitute for true duals, Tabernacle, Candelabra, or LED. There just isn't. And you can have $20 Forces all day long but at the end of the day, there's gonna be some stuff that players just have to pony up for. The issue is those cards, needing 4x FoW was never a major obstacle. It was a hurdle, sure, but not an insurmountable one, a playset of these things in played condition though, could be had for less than a copy of a single Volcanic Island. Lowering the prices of some non-RL cards helps, yeah, but it doesn't solve the problem of the cards you can't lower the price for, especially when those prices keep increasing whenever something else decreases to try an make na extra buck off of "perceived newfound interest" in the format.
EG: It does no good to drop the price of FOW through reprints to $50, when this also causes Usea or Volcanic, or whatever to go up an extra $130.
Pushing all the value to RL cards is what will drive people to the Chinese fakes. There already is a market for them but right now they don't pose a real threat to the secondary market. The scary thing though is that the Chinese fakes keep getting better and better. At some point they are going to become extremely difficult to differentiate between them and authentic cards. Once that happens they will flood the market and all hell will break loose.
The good news is that it takes a pretty serious operation to counterfeit on this kind of level, and even these are identifiable. WoTC has been aggressive in fighting various counterfeit operations, and not many of them have the capability to produce a card that can pass even if someone didn't know what to look for, it would still evoke suspicion. It's not easy to get the exact feel of the card right, let alone the dithering and dot pattern, have it pass the common and simple light and bend tests where failure would warrant further inspection, and on top of all of that, you either have to fake natural 20+ year wear, or have a card that's so pack fresh it arises suspicion just on how clean it is. They may have gotten better, but they're still not close enough by any means to make anything perfect. As long as they can be detected, very few players will be ok with getting these to play competitively. At the end of the day, we're still dealing with Chinese counterfeits, and while it's easy enough for the Chinese to make decent knockoffs of just about anything, it's very hard for them to make knockoffs with the same level of quality as the original whether we're talking Magic cards or electronics.
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
No, they're not perfect, but they're already good enough to pass muster in a sleeve in sanctioned events. That suggests to me that they're also steadily increasing among secondary market cards on sites like TCGPlayer and eBay.
MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't counterfeit. Get or make a play test card that looks good, but for Pete's sake, STOP FEEDING THE BEAST IT WILL CONSUME US ALL.
why is the preorder price of Wasteland higher than Tempest Wasteland? You'd think the original was more attractive. Is it just because of the usual unreasonably high SCG preorder price?
This seems to have corrected itself, with TMP Wasteland dropping a few bucks below the EMA one. Still excited to see how low the EMA ones will go after release, but at rare I really don`t see them staying at a full $50. Is $40 realistic?
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When I hit my 3000 post mark, I'm gone for good.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
You can already pre-order them for $44 off tcgplayer. I definitely think they'll go lower than 40, with my optimistic prediction being around the $35 range (hopefully!).
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--> Modern <-- RBUSplinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBU UUUMono U TronUUU GRGGR TronGRG GWURKnight FallGWUR
You can already pre-order them for $44 off tcgplayer. I definitely think they'll go lower than 40, with my optimistic prediction being around the $35 range (hopefully!).
Snap buy them at that price. Unless they turn up in a standard set or a Commander deck, it will rebound hard, quickly.
EDH/Commander is a social format, right? So why don't people use their social skills to discuss what they like and don't like, instead of adopting a list with 60+ banned cards?
If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Reprinting staples is the reason we had a $400/playset card. Without the fetches being in Standard, we don't have a card like Jace being ubiquitous in EVERY deck and homogenizing standard to 4 color goodstuff that the format had degenerated to. Now that the fetches are gone, Jace playsets can be found for as cheap as $125.
Or if you want to go back a little further, lets look at the M14/Theros block standard with Thoughtseize and Mutavault. Those two cards alone warped the standard environment around them the entire time they were in standard and are openly acknowledged as a mistake on Wizards' part.
If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Player base has a LOT to do with standard prices. This is basic supply/demand. Increasing the number of players wanting a specific card drives the price of that card. This is supply and demand. As far as a quicker rotation leading to a higher price, I'd argue that because cards rotate more frequently, buyers are more hesitant to plunk down as much money for a card that will only see play throughout a shorter life. What drives cards through the roof (like JVP) is when WoTC prints something that's good enough to keep seeing play past it's standard life. Now people want that card not just because it's obviously a powerhouse, but also because it's a card that has eternal value. JVP is the exception to the rule these days, and aside from the occasional "oops mythic", standard cards, particularly ones that are ONLY good enough for standard, are $10 or less most of the time. Every single time a card breaks the $20 mark, it is almost exclusively because the card is good in other formats. And this is ok. There's an attached value to a card that has value past its life in standard, especially when that card is a proven powerhouse (like the reprint of Thoughtseize).
These days, most rares, unless they're a reprint of something that's already worth a sizable chunk of change, are $5-$10, tops. Most mythics won't break $10 once their price settles. There are always exceptions, outliers if you will, but aside from the occasional JVP or Dragonlord Ojutai, standard is by and large more affordable. Reprinting old format staples in standard is something that WoTC has done here and there, but it's not always been the best idea, as the cards that need the reprints need the reprints because they're expensive, and they're expensive because they're powerful. Tarmogoyf, for example, could really use an en masse printing, but can you imagine what Tarmogoyf would do to standard? Or jamming Rishadan Port into standard?
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If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Player base has a LOT to do with standard prices. This is basic supply/demand. Increasing the number of players wanting a specific card drives the price of that card. This is supply and demand. As far as a quicker rotation leading to a higher price, I'd argue that because cards rotate more frequently, buyers are more hesitant to plunk down as much money for a card that will only see play throughout a shorter life. What drives cards through the roof (like JVP) is when WoTC prints something that's good enough to keep seeing play past it's standard life. Now people want that card not just because it's obviously a powerhouse, but also because it's a card that has eternal value. JVP is the exception to the rule these days, and aside from the occasional "oops mythic", standard cards, particularly ones that are ONLY good enough for standard, are $10 or less most of the time. Every single time a card breaks the $20 mark, it is almost exclusively because the card is good in other formats. And this is ok. There's an attached value to a card that has value past its life in standard, especially when that card is a proven powerhouse (like the reprint of Thoughtseize).
These days, most rares, unless they're a reprint of something that's already worth a sizable chunk of change, are $5-$10, tops. Most mythics won't break $10 once their price settles. There are always exceptions, outliers if you will, but aside from the occasional JVP or Dragonlord Ojutai, standard is by and large more affordable. Reprinting old format staples in standard is something that WoTC has done here and there, but it's not always been the best idea, as the cards that need the reprints need the reprints because they're expensive, and they're expensive because they're powerful. Tarmogoyf, for example, could really use an en masse printing, but can you imagine what Tarmogoyf would do to standard? Or jamming Rishadan Port into standard?
Port and Goyf both started in standard. If you are afraid of those cards in standard, print other cards in standard that help balance them.
Wasteland and Graveyard hate.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Well yes, I'm well aware of that, I remember when Port was in standard. And every deck ran four of them. You couldn't walk across an LGS room without hearing "I port your port."
If you want to print a set featuring a while bunch of overpowered, non reserve list tournament staples, you are either going to A) Completely WRECK standard or B) Make a limited print run as a standalone set.
Like some kind of Legacy Champions set. That's not got quite the ring to it though.
How about "Legacy Masters?" That's....close......
"Eternal Champions?" Crap, I can't come up with a good name, nevermind, torch that idea.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Well yes, I'm well aware of that, I remember when Port was in standard. And every deck ran four of them. You couldn't walk across an LGS room without hearing "I port your port."
If you want to print a set featuring a while bunch of overpowered, non reserve list tournament staples, you are either going to A) Completely WRECK standard or B) Make a limited print run as a standalone set.
Like some kind of Legacy Champions set. That's not got quite the ring to it though.
How about "Legacy Masters?" That's....close......
"Eternal Champions?" Crap, I can't come up with a good name, nevermind, torch that idea.
I get your point... I'm just saying that I hate the "take over Standard" excuse. Cards do that all the time. Sometimes standard has card(s) that are auto includes.
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Currently Playing: Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me! Legacy: RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R RGBelcherRG WSoldier StompyW BReanimatorB EDH: BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Yup. Bitterblossom. Arcbound Ravager. Bloodbraid Elf. Primeval Titan. Stoneforge Mystic/JTMS. Anytime a card took over standard on the level I'm talking about, it's been pretty unanimously regarded as a mistake that drove people away from standard. Printing a single one card on that power level means you either play the deck featuring it, or you play the deck designed to beat it (but that loses to everything else and STILL doesn't always beat the deck it was targeting to begin with). Printing a few cards on that power level......and now you've basically got EMA.
Auto includes like fetchlands, cheap burn spells if you're in red, cheap tempo cards in blue, cheap removal in black, etc.....cards that you just play if you're in those colors, those are fine. The issues occur when a single card is so strong that it makes people shove it in wherever they possibly can, or the card is SO good that NOT playing a deck with it is suicidal. And a lot of the cards that are high cost Legacy staples that people want to see reprinted are just that busted. There's just no comparison to them in standard. I mean, you'd be crazy not to play the deck that ran 4x Vampiric Tutor, a card so strong it's banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage. Mystical Tutor? How many decks would splash to play this or Enlightened with great ease?
The cards that need the reprints are the ones wizards would be most terrified of putting into standard because whenever they do screw up, people leave it out of sheer frustration. Some people are fine with shrugging their shoulders and playing THE deck till it rotates....or gets banned...but, many other people are of the attitude that if my choices are to play Faeries or not play Magic, or play Affinity or Anti-Affinity and these are the choices I have.....well...screw standard, I'll go do something else while I wait on that crap to rotate.
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Legacy: TES
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Player base has a LOT to do with standard prices. This is basic supply/demand. Increasing the number of players wanting a specific card drives the price of that card. This is supply and demand.
1. Supply of standard product can and almost always is printed to meet demand.
2. If it really where a supply/demand issue we'd see a rise in the EV of booster boxes, we don't
As far as a quicker rotation leading to a higher price, I'd argue that because cards rotate more frequently, buyers are more hesitant to plunk down as much money for a card that will only see play throughout a shorter life.
Do you have any evedince to back this up or is it baseless conjuncture?
What drives cards through the roof (like JVP) is when WoTC prints something that's good enough to keep seeing play past it's standard life. Now people want that card not just because it's obviously a powerhouse, but also because it's a card that has eternal value. JVP is the exception to the rule these days, and aside from the occasional "oops mythic", standard cards, particularly ones that are ONLY good enough for standard, are $10 or less most of the time. Every single time a card breaks the $20 mark, it is almost exclusively because the card is good in other formats. And this is ok. There's an attached value to a card that has value past its life in standard, especially when that card is a proven powerhouse (like the reprint of Thoughtseize).
These days, most rares, unless they're a reprint of something that's already worth a sizable chunk of change, are $5-$10, tops. Most mythics won't break $10 once their price settles. There are always exceptions, outliers if you will, but aside from the occasional JVP or Dragonlord Ojutai, standard is by and large more affordable.
Really let's take a look at the expensive cards from last year, That where over $10 (most over $20) and have little to - no eternal vaule
Elspeth
Courser of Kruphix
Nissa, Worldwaker
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)
Den Protector
Deathmist Raptor
Stormbreath Dragon
Goblin Rabblemaster
Xenagos, the Reveler
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
This is not a full list, these are just cards from the first two decklists I saw.
Also what standard staple mythic settled below $10 while still seeing play?
Reprinting old format staples in standard is something that WoTC has done here and there, but it's not always been the best idea, as the cards that need the reprints need the reprints because they're expensive, and they're expensive because they're powerful. Tarmogoyf, for example, could really use an en masse printing, but can you imagine what Tarmogoyf would do to standard? Or jamming Rishadan Port into standard?
You realize that cards being powerful in eternal =/= card being powerful in standard. We had goyf in standard, it wasn't a problem, sure it was good but it was fine. Sure there are some cards that shouldn't be in standard and for them the can get the expedition treatment. Problem solved.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Player base has a LOT to do with standard prices. This is basic supply/demand. Increasing the number of players wanting a specific card drives the price of that card. This is supply and demand.
1. Supply of standard product can and almost always is printed to meet demand.
2. If it really where a supply/demand issue we'd see a rise in the EV of booster boxes, we don't
As far as a quicker rotation leading to a higher price, I'd argue that because cards rotate more frequently, buyers are more hesitant to plunk down as much money for a card that will only see play throughout a shorter life.
Do you have any evedince to back this up or is it baseless conjuncture?
What drives cards through the roof (like JVP) is when WoTC prints something that's good enough to keep seeing play past it's standard life. Now people want that card not just because it's obviously a powerhouse, but also because it's a card that has eternal value. JVP is the exception to the rule these days, and aside from the occasional "oops mythic", standard cards, particularly ones that are ONLY good enough for standard, are $10 or less most of the time. Every single time a card breaks the $20 mark, it is almost exclusively because the card is good in other formats. And this is ok. There's an attached value to a card that has value past its life in standard, especially when that card is a proven powerhouse (like the reprint of Thoughtseize).
These days, most rares, unless they're a reprint of something that's already worth a sizable chunk of change, are $5-$10, tops. Most mythics won't break $10 once their price settles. There are always exceptions, outliers if you will, but aside from the occasional JVP or Dragonlord Ojutai, standard is by and large more affordable.
Really let's take a look at the expensive cards from last year, That where over $10 (most over $20) and have little to - no eternal vaule
Elspeth
Courser of Kruphix
Nissa, Worldwaker
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)
Den Protector
Deathmist Raptor
Stormbreath Dragon
Goblin Rabblemaster
Xenagos, the Reveler
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
This is not a full list, these are just cards from the first two decklists I saw.
Also what standard staple mythic settled below $10 while still seeing play?
Reprinting old format staples in standard is something that WoTC has done here and there, but it's not always been the best idea, as the cards that need the reprints need the reprints because they're expensive, and they're expensive because they're powerful. Tarmogoyf, for example, could really use an en masse printing, but can you imagine what Tarmogoyf would do to standard? Or jamming Rishadan Port into standard?
You realize that cards being powerful in eternal =/= card being powerful in standard. We had goyf in standard, it wasn't a problem, sure it was good but it was fine. Sure there are some cards that shouldn't be in standard and for them the can get the expedition treatment. Problem solved.
1) I think we're having some miscommunication in regards to what you're trying to say about supply/demand. If supply is meeting demand, then prices are determined by playability of the card, not artificial scarcity by underprinting. Larger print runs= greater supply. Like RTR's shocklands, or Khans' fetches, during their lifetime we took cards that were originally $20+ and got them to $10ish. If you needed a playset of a particular land, it wasn't hard to get at all, and their pricetags, despite being the hallmark cards of the sets, were relatively low compared to their values before the reprints. When a set isn't opened much for whatever reason, and the print run is correspondingly lower, any cards that ARE desirable in that set get pricey quick. Like Voice of Resurgence. DGM was a crap set that was lightly opened, but here we have a card with high color requirements breaking $40 just because there were hardly any floating around because no one wanted to open that stupid set. If Voice had been printed in RTR instead, we'd be looking at MAYBE half that price, almost assuredly. RTR is a good example of what happens when high supply exists. For a while, Thoughtseize was even $15, when before the reprint it was breaking $60. Abrupt Decay is a Legacy/modern staple and it's taken quite a while to get to just $15. During standard and afterwards it was a whopping $7. Anyway, I'm not seeing how having a larger player base=more supply=higher pricing, so I figure that's got to be misworded or I'm reading it wrong.
2) You're right, there isn't a supply/demand issue for sealed product as a whole, and there aren't usually supply issues for a particular card unless we get a Voice of Resurgence scenario. Hence my argument that a rising playerbase does not= a rise in cost for the player. If you have a set with a perceived high EV, it gets opened like crazy because there IS such value and as long as WoTC keeps printing it, you'll see prices fall until the set goes out of print for a while. Again, look at RTR, there was SO much EV in that set when it released. You could open any number of shocklands or Thoughtseize or Decay or DRS, or Sphinx's Revelation.....the list of cards in that set worth $$$ was just tremendous and card prices ended up being suppressed for most of the set through its standard life with what, Sphinx's Rev carrying the highest pricetag at $20ish? Eventually the supply catches up and the EV of a box falls, but opening RTR was still a winning proposition.
I wouldn't say my above statement is BASELESS conjecture, though I will say that it's just my opinion. It makes more sense to me that if a card has a shortened lifespan, it runs into the "pre-rotation jitters" more quickly and doesn't live as long at its highest price. But no, I have no hard evidence for this, it is just my opinion. This arguably makes the point that it makes STANDARD more expensive, not necessarily a particular CARD more expensive. Standard has always been a losing proposition for anyone unwilling to flip their stock before rotation arrives, and this just accelerates the process. Even though a card might run into rotation sooner and cause it to live at a higher pricetag for less time as a result, the quickened rotation is what's screwing people, not the actual cost because you don't get to play that card as long.
Now let's take a look at the cards you've listed:
Elspeth- Got reprinted in Dual Decks. Was the namesake card during "Elspeth: the Gathering" when literally every single T1 deck ran her. Dominated standard and the only thing that kept her from breaking $40 was the fact that Theros was so heavily opened. This is an outlier and an example of a card that overtook games so easily that it was evident that the easiest way to beat her was to play her. She got a reprint in the deul decks before rotation and even so still carried a $15 pricetag afterwards, which was fair and made her much more obtainable for people still wanting to play her.
Courser of Kruphix- Got expensive for a little bit, but people recognized this thing was good enough to see Modern play.
Nissa, Worldwaker- Spiked hard to $40, didn't stick there long. More of her life was spent at $20, then $10 as alternatives to playing her popped up. She still saw play, but her necessity dropped as other alternatives to playing her showed up.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)- This is a Dragon Planeswalker that is good enough to see play in Legacy MUD, various tron decks, and modern to boot. His pricetag is high, but it's real and actually fair. There will remain a steady demand for this card for all time and we'll see something akin to Karn, Planeswalker pricing. We knew this while he was in standard and is a rare example of a card that deserves to be a $50 bill.
Den Protector- Spiked high to what, $15 and quickly settled at $12ish.
Deathmist Raptor- This was a flash in the pan and everyone knew it. It carried it's $30ish pricetag as long as it could.
Stormbreath Dragon- One of the best cards in standard at the time. One of the first truly GOOD dragons, and got some Modern love.
Goblin Rabblemaster- Spiked to what, $20 when he was seeing play in every deck that could make red mana. He settled a bit, no one wanted to pay $20 for a card that wasn't even mythic, but again, he saw play across several different decks.
Xenagos, the Reveler- Peaked at what, $17 and saw play as like a 2 of?
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker- Ended up being sub $10 while still in standard. He spiked for a bit when he actually got played, but I remember him being $15 avg. That's not that bad, especially considering he was never a 4x.
Most of these cards are non-issues, even if they exhibited a temporarily high pricetag, a decent chunk of them were never a 4x. Deathmist, Stormbreath, and Rabblemaster might be exceptopn.
Most of these cards saw temporary spikes which then eased off, particularly the rares. The only card I found to be a real offender on this list was how long Deathmist Raptor lived at the $35 pricetag. I get that when a card starts doing well it creates a sudden, huge interest in a card that can send its pricetag to unreasonable levels, but if you're willing to wait for the initial rush to subside, I don't feel like asking $12 or even $20 is too much for a card that is a cornerstone of a deck, especially if you only need 2 of them. What I have a problem with is when EVERY card in the deck is $15 and up. Please note I said "most mythics with settle below $10" not "most staple mythics". Even so, again, we see most of the Mythics on that list settling at not much higher than $10, like Elspeth (thanks to the Duel Decks), Sarkhan (ended up right AT $10), and Xenagos. Stormbreath ended up around $15. Again, the only card I take issue with was Deathmist, that card should never have stayed at its pricetag as long as it did.
Magic has a variety of options when it comes to how much you want to spend on standard and still be competitive. It's ok to have a deck that costs $400 to build, as long as that's not the deck you HAVE to build in order to be competitive. If you're going to have a rotating format like Standard, it is unreasonable, however, to print mistakes that allow decks like Caw-Blade to emerge. That deck was $800 and thre was simply no way to beat it unless you got real lucky, its pilot sucked, or you were also playing it. U/B faeries is another example; at least half the cards in the damn deck were $20. THESE are the offenders. What we're looking at more often than not are decks running a bunch of $5ish cards, maybe a playset or two of some $10 bills, and maybe 6-8 cards in to $20ish range. We see decks like Theros block U/W humans that could be built for less than $50 and win. And we sometimes see things like Mythics.dec, but the important thing is we're not seeing Caw-Blade, or U/B Fae anymore......but I'll grant that JvP I think, was an unfortunate accident.
As far as to your last statement, I'm well aware that a card being powerful in eternal does not necessarily equal to being powerful in Standard, but then again, for every Force of Will, there's a Necropotence or a JtMS. Furthermore, there are cases where some Legacy staples would sometimes be fine in standard, and sometimes not. Would you want to see Deathrite Shaman in Khans with all the fetches? No, he'd be in every deck. Goyf is probably just strong if he were printed right now, but he'd be a little more insane back in Theros when we Commune and Mulch were seeing heavy play. And then some cards will almost always be busted.
I like the idea of the Expedition treatment for cards besides lands, but the issue there is that when you start doing this to any card you please, expeditions become less special and start looking more and more like a money grab. "Here's a perfectly average set, not broken but not trash either...... but you COULD open an Expedition Vendilion Clique!"
EMA is the best way to approach this, but it'll be a process. It'll take a couple EMAs or MMAs to drag the prices down for everything that you want to/can actually impact, you can't just print a set where every rare is a reprint of a $40+ bill in one shot.
I would rather see WoTC go back to the MPR system personally, those cards were always cool and exciting to get.
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Again, look at RTR, there was SO much EV in that set when it released. You could open any number of shocklands or Thoughtseize or Decay or DRS, or Sphinx's Revelation.....the list of cards in that set worth $$$ was just tremendous and card prices ended up being suppressed for most of the set through its standard life with what, Sphinx's Rev carrying the highest pricetag at $20ish? Eventually the supply catches up and the EV of a box falls, but opening RTR was still a winning proposition.
The list of money cards in RTR is even more impressive when the money card from THS gets added to it
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If you want to see Legacy go back to those price points, you'll also need to see standard go back to those price points. $400 seems to be about the going rate for a T1 Standard deck, right now. It used to be more, remember how much Caw-Blade cost to build? One of the main reasons you're seeing a huge drive in prices is that you're seeing a large rise in playerbase. WOTC has done a very good job at making standard more affordable and more accessible these days, and I'd like to think the days of $1000 standard decks are behind us.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Player base has a LOT to do with standard prices. This is basic supply/demand. Increasing the number of players wanting a specific card drives the price of that card. This is supply and demand.
1. Supply of standard product can and almost always is printed to meet demand.
2. If it really where a supply/demand issue we'd see a rise in the EV of booster boxes, we don't
As far as a quicker rotation leading to a higher price, I'd argue that because cards rotate more frequently, buyers are more hesitant to plunk down as much money for a card that will only see play throughout a shorter life.
Do you have any evedince to back this up or is it baseless conjuncture?
What drives cards through the roof (like JVP) is when WoTC prints something that's good enough to keep seeing play past it's standard life. Now people want that card not just because it's obviously a powerhouse, but also because it's a card that has eternal value. JVP is the exception to the rule these days, and aside from the occasional "oops mythic", standard cards, particularly ones that are ONLY good enough for standard, are $10 or less most of the time. Every single time a card breaks the $20 mark, it is almost exclusively because the card is good in other formats. And this is ok. There's an attached value to a card that has value past its life in standard, especially when that card is a proven powerhouse (like the reprint of Thoughtseize).
These days, most rares, unless they're a reprint of something that's already worth a sizable chunk of change, are $5-$10, tops. Most mythics won't break $10 once their price settles. There are always exceptions, outliers if you will, but aside from the occasional JVP or Dragonlord Ojutai, standard is by and large more affordable.
Really let's take a look at the expensive cards from last year, That where over $10 (most over $20) and have little to - no eternal vaule
Elspeth
Courser of Kruphix
Nissa, Worldwaker
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)
Den Protector
Deathmist Raptor
Stormbreath Dragon
Goblin Rabblemaster
Xenagos, the Reveler
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
This is not a full list, these are just cards from the first two decklists I saw.
Also what standard staple mythic settled below $10 while still seeing play?
Reprinting old format staples in standard is something that WoTC has done here and there, but it's not always been the best idea, as the cards that need the reprints need the reprints because they're expensive, and they're expensive because they're powerful. Tarmogoyf, for example, could really use an en masse printing, but can you imagine what Tarmogoyf would do to standard? Or jamming Rishadan Port into standard?
You realize that cards being powerful in eternal =/= card being powerful in standard. We had goyf in standard, it wasn't a problem, sure it was good but it was fine. Sure there are some cards that shouldn't be in standard and for them the can get the expedition treatment. Problem solved.
1) I think we're having some miscommunication in regards to what you're trying to say about supply/demand. If supply is meeting demand, then prices are determined by playability of the card, not artificial scarcity by underprinting. Larger print runs= greater supply. Like RTR's shocklands, or Khans' fetches, during their lifetime we took cards that were originally $20+ and got them to $10ish. If you needed a playset of a particular land, it wasn't hard to get at all, and their pricetags, despite being the hallmark cards of the sets, were relatively low compared to their values before the reprints. When a set isn't opened much for whatever reason, and the print run is correspondingly lower, any cards that ARE desirable in that set get pricey quick. Like Voice of Resurgence. DGM was a crap set that was lightly opened, but here we have a card with high color requirements breaking $40 just because there were hardly any floating around because no one wanted to open that stupid set. If Voice had been printed in RTR instead, we'd be looking at MAYBE half that price, almost assuredly. RTR is a good example of what happens when high supply exists. For a while, Thoughtseize was even $15, when before the reprint it was breaking $60. Abrupt Decay is a Legacy/modern staple and it's taken quite a while to get to just $15. During standard and afterwards it was a whopping $7. Anyway, I'm not seeing how having a larger player base=more supply=higher pricing, so I figure that's got to be misworded or I'm reading it wrong.
2) You're right, there isn't a supply/demand issue for sealed product as a whole, and there aren't usually supply issues for a particular card unless we get a Voice of Resurgence scenario. Hence my argument that a rising playerbase does not= a rise in cost for the player. If you have a set with a perceived high EV, it gets opened like crazy because there IS such value and as long as WoTC keeps printing it, you'll see prices fall until the set goes out of print for a while. Again, look at RTR, there was SO much EV in that set when it released. You could open any number of shocklands or Thoughtseize or Decay or DRS, or Sphinx's Revelation.....the list of cards in that set worth $$$ was just tremendous and card prices ended up being suppressed for most of the set through its standard life with what, Sphinx's Rev carrying the highest pricetag at $20ish? Eventually the supply catches up and the EV of a box falls, but opening RTR was still a winning proposition.
I wouldn't say my above statement is BASELESS conjecture, though I will say that it's just my opinion. It makes more sense to me that if a card has a shortened lifespan, it runs into the "pre-rotation jitters" more quickly and doesn't live as long at its highest price. But no, I have no hard evidence for this, it is just my opinion. This arguably makes the point that it makes STANDARD more expensive, not necessarily a particular CARD more expensive. Standard has always been a losing proposition for anyone unwilling to flip their stock before rotation arrives, and this just accelerates the process. Even though a card might run into rotation sooner and cause it to live at a higher pricetag for less time as a result, the quickened rotation is what's screwing people, not the actual cost because you don't get to play that card as long.
Now let's take a look at the cards you've listed:
Elspeth- Got reprinted in Dual Decks. Was the namesake card during "Elspeth: the Gathering" when literally every single T1 deck ran her. Dominated standard and the only thing that kept her from breaking $40 was the fact that Theros was so heavily opened. This is an outlier and an example of a card that overtook games so easily that it was evident that the easiest way to beat her was to play her. She got a reprint in the deul decks before rotation and even so still carried a $15 pricetag afterwards, which was fair and made her much more obtainable for people still wanting to play her.
Courser of Kruphix- Got expensive for a little bit, but people recognized this thing was good enough to see Modern play.
Nissa, Worldwaker- Spiked hard to $40, didn't stick there long. More of her life was spent at $20, then $10 as alternatives to playing her popped up. She still saw play, but her necessity dropped as other alternatives to playing her showed up.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)- This is a Dragon Planeswalker that is good enough to see play in Legacy MUD, various tron decks, and modern to boot. His pricetag is high, but it's real and actually fair. There will remain a steady demand for this card for all time and we'll see something akin to Karn, Planeswalker pricing. We knew this while he was in standard and is a rare example of a card that deserves to be a $50 bill.
Den Protector- Spiked high to what, $15 and quickly settled at $12ish.
Deathmist Raptor- This was a flash in the pan and everyone knew it. It carried it's $30ish pricetag as long as it could.
Stormbreath Dragon- One of the best cards in standard at the time. One of the first truly GOOD dragons, and got some Modern love.
Goblin Rabblemaster- Spiked to what, $20 when he was seeing play in every deck that could make red mana. He settled a bit, no one wanted to pay $20 for a card that wasn't even mythic, but again, he saw play across several different decks.
Xenagos, the Reveler- Peaked at what, $17 and saw play as like a 2 of?
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker- Ended up being sub $10 while still in standard. He spiked for a bit when he actually got played, but I remember him being $15 avg. That's not that bad, especially considering he was never a 4x.
Most of these cards are non-issues, even if they exhibited a temporarily high pricetag, a decent chunk of them were never a 4x. Deathmist, Stormbreath, and Rabblemaster might be exceptopn.
Most of these cards saw temporary spikes which then eased off, particularly the rares. The only card I found to be a real offender on this list was how long Deathmist Raptor lived at the $35 pricetag. I get that when a card starts doing well it creates a sudden, huge interest in a card that can send its pricetag to unreasonable levels, but if you're willing to wait for the initial rush to subside, I don't feel like asking $12 or even $20 is too much for a card that is a cornerstone of a deck, especially if you only need 2 of them. What I have a problem with is when EVERY card in the deck is $15 and up. Please note I said "most mythics with settle below $10" not "most staple mythics". Even so, again, we see most of the Mythics on that list settling at not much higher than $10, like Elspeth (thanks to the Duel Decks), Sarkhan (ended up right AT $10), and Xenagos. Stormbreath ended up around $15. Again, the only card I take issue with was Deathmist, that card should never have stayed at its pricetag as long as it did.
Magic has a variety of options when it comes to how much you want to spend on standard and still be competitive. It's ok to have a deck that costs $400 to build, as long as that's not the deck you HAVE to build in order to be competitive. If you're going to have a rotating format like Standard, it is unreasonable, however, to print mistakes that allow decks like Caw-Blade to emerge. That deck was $800 and thre was simply no way to beat it unless you got real lucky, its pilot sucked, or you were also playing it. U/B faeries is another example; at least half the cards in the damn deck were $20. THESE are the offenders. What we're looking at more often than not are decks running a bunch of $5ish cards, maybe a playset or two of some $10 bills, and maybe 6-8 cards in to $20ish range. We see decks like Theros block U/W humans that could be built for less than $50 and win. And we sometimes see things like Mythics.dec, but the important thing is we're not seeing Caw-Blade, or U/B Fae anymore......but I'll grant that JvP I think, was an unfortunate accident.
As far as to your last statement, I'm well aware that a card being powerful in eternal does not necessarily equal to being powerful in Standard, but then again, for every Force of Will, there's a Necropotence or a JtMS. Furthermore, there are cases where some Legacy staples would sometimes be fine in standard, and sometimes not. Would you want to see Deathrite Shaman in Khans with all the fetches? No, he'd be in every deck. Goyf is probably just strong if he were printed right now, but he'd be a little more insane back in Theros when we Commune and Mulch were seeing heavy play. And then some cards will almost always be busted.
I like the idea of the Expedition treatment for cards besides lands, but the issue there is that when you start doing this to any card you please, expeditions become less special and start looking more and more like a money grab. "Here's a perfectly average set, not broken but not trash either...... but you COULD open an Expedition Vendilion Clique!"
EMA is the best way to approach this, but it'll be a process. It'll take a couple EMAs or MMAs to drag the prices down for everything that you want to/can actually impact, you can't just print a set where every rare is a reprint of a $40+ bill in one shot.
I would rather see WoTC go back to the MPR system personally, those cards were always cool and exciting to get.
So it sounds like you agree that the increased cost of standard prices has nothing to do with increasing playerbase.
For all the cards you addressed, It doesn't really matter that they where reprinted ect... the fact is they all held a value above $10 in standard despite having no to little eternal value.
I did a quick check back through the sets from rtr to dragons of tarkir. Looking at the cards that were over $10 due that had atleast half of there value come from other formats, there where under 20 when you remove reprints from that list it dropped to around 5.
EMA is the worst way to do it as the EV =< box cost, if you want to drop prices EV >= box cost. It doesn't really matter if expeditions aren't special I think most players would still be happy to open a card that's worth $50-$200. Also note that RTR which you praised for it's high supply good EV and lower than average prices had a good portion of it's EV in reprints.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
On the contrary, I would argue that more players=higher print runs= more supply= equals lower prices (mainly post-rotation).
At launch of a new set, many powerful mythics are going to have a higher price tag until the set gets drafted and opened enough for supply to catch up and then these cards fall most of the time. Very rarely do they stick at their initial pricetags and most often settle in the $10-$15 range, so maybe my $10 estimate was a little off, but not by much. Yeah, there are a few annoying exceptions to that, but by and large the cost to complete an entire deck has fallen. It sucks when $100 of a $400 deck is occupied by a playset of a certain card, but I'd rather be in that boat than the "all cards are under $30, but every card in the deck is at LEAST $10 and the deck costs $700 to build.
I am ALL about reprints being done in modern sets for a variety of reasons. It helps slow down power creep, it causes prices of those cards to drop, etc. But the reprints also need to be done with care. We like reprints, but we also like to see new cards and some cards are just really hard to reprint in standard because they're either too powerful, or they make no sense lore-wise. You can't reprint Karakas on Zendikar, and you can't open a Rishadan Port on Innistrad. Additionally, Wizards has deemed certain cards as antagonistic to standard and won't print cards like them in a standard environment anymore. Winter Orb is an example, and so are 4 mana wraths, and Armageddon at 4 mana. 3 mana or less land destruction is also deemed "unfun." To address these cards and get them reprinted, expedition versions wouldn't help. Not that Winter Orb is expensive or anything, but Rishadan Port is a better example. EMA/MMA style sets lets Wizards reprint a bunch of cards that could not be printed in standard for one reason or another and have control over how many new Force of Wills enter the wild since the set is limited in print run. It makes for a very tasty apple to dangle that someone is gonna buy, because hey, foil Force of Will, amiright?
Personally I think EMA should have been a little more aggressive in the EV, I agree with you there. This is the first time WoTC has done a Legacy-based set, and I suspect they're being very careful not to cause the sky to fall too much. I think next year, EMA2 will probably be a little more aggressive in what they reprint. But EMA will do more to help drop card values of non RL cards than, say, an expedition Bitterblossom or whatever. Expeditions are so rare that the increased supply has pretty much zero bearing on the card's pricetag. Out of all the expedition lands printed, did ANY of them drop?
I'm not saying that EMA is a GREAT solution to the problem, or that this EMA is not without its faults and should have been done a little differently, but I AM saying it's probably the BEST course of action. EMA having EV =<box cost is a tactic to compensate for the limited print run. If the EV was >= box cost, stores would just crack the boxes to sell the singles and any product that hit the floor would sell out instantly and that owuld be that. By easing the value off, stores are going to want to actually sell the product instead of opening it, and players are not going to buy out inventory of a limited run product on day 1, giving everyone the chance to buy a pack or two.
I would love it if every card in the set was a home run, but I'd also be willing to be many people, including myself, would at best get to touch the wrappers in a trash can before the set goes out of print.
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On the contrary, I would argue that more players=higher print runs= more supply= equals lower prices (mainly post-rotation).
At launch of a new set, many powerful mythics are going to have a higher price tag until the set gets drafted and opened enough for supply to catch up and then these cards fall most of the time. Very rarely do they stick at their initial pricetags and most often settle in the $10-$15 range, so maybe my $10 estimate was a little off, but not by much. Yeah, there are a few annoying exceptions to that, but by and large the cost to complete an entire deck has fallen. It sucks when $100 of a $400 deck is occupied by a playset of a certain card, but I'd rather be in that boat than the "all cards are under $30, but every card in the deck is at LEAST $10 and the deck costs $700 to build.
Those both sound like terrible situations. I think we'll see more of both as more and better staples get printed at mythic.
I am ALL about reprints being done in modern sets for a variety of reasons. It helps slow down power creep, it causes prices of those cards to drop, etc.
Prices hardly dropped at all for anything in MM the only thing that really dropped where causal cards and uncommons. I'm sure EMA will have an effect as legacy cards prices are more about scarcity than demand and people are buying this set based on hype/lottery tickets despite it being a losing proposition.
But the reprints also need to be done with care. We like reprints, but we also like to see new cards and some cards are just really hard to reprint in standard because they're either too powerful, or they make no sense lore-wise. You can't reprint Karakas on Zendikar, and you can't open a Rishadan Port on Innistrad. Additionally, Wizards has deemed certain cards as antagonistic to standard and won't print cards like them in a standard environment anymore. Winter Orb is an example, and so are 4 mana wraths, and Armageddon at 4 mana. 3 mana or less land destruction is also deemed "unfun." To address these cards and get them reprinted, expedition versions wouldn't help. Not that Winter Orb is expensive or anything, but Rishadan Port is a better example.
Which is why they can go the expeditions route as stated earlier.
EMA/MMA style sets lets Wizards reprint a bunch of cards that could not be printed in standard for one reason or another and have control over how many new Force of Wills enter the wild since the set is limited in print run. It makes for a very tasty apple to dangle that someone is gonna buy, because hey, foil Force of Will, amiright?
If the selling point of the set is a lottery ticket it's a poorly designed set. EMA/MMA is just WOTC way to cash in on the secondary market.
Personally I think EMA should have been a little more aggressive in the EV, I agree with you there. This is the first time WoTC has done a Legacy-based set, and I suspect they're being very careful not to cause the sky to fall too much. I think next year, EMA2 will probably be a little more aggressive in what they reprint. But EMA will do more to help drop card values of non RL cards than, say, an expedition Bitterblossom or whatever. Expeditions are so rare that the increased supply has pretty much zero bearing on the card's pricetag. Out of all the expedition lands printed, did ANY of them drop?
I doubt WOTC will increase the EV until the sets stop selling. No the last round of expeditions didn't affect their prices but that was only one sets worth of printing. Also I think that there were about one per case, I'm thinking they should be one per booster-box .
I'm not saying that EMA is a GREAT solution to the problem, or that this EMA is not without its faults and should have been done a little differently, but I AM saying it's probably the BEST course of action. EMA having EV =<box cost is a tactic to compensate for the limited print run. If the EV was >= box cost, stores would just crack the boxes to sell the singles and any product that hit the floor would sell out instantly and that owuld be that. By easing the value off, stores are going to want to actually sell the product instead of opening it, and players are not going to buy out inventory of a limited run product on day 1, giving everyone the chance to buy a pack or two.
Well we saw how well that worked for MM2, after the initial hype it stopped selling, last time I checked you can still buy a box of it for retail. I don't get this mentality on this forum of "it's better to be able buy something you don't want than to have a shot at something you do want". For MM1 none of my LGS hoarded any of the product or raised the price and some of them are scummy stores, nor would it be hard for Wotc to crack down on such behavior.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Prices hardly dropped at all for anything in MM the only thing that really dropped where causal cards and uncommons. I'm sure EMA will have an effect as legacy cards prices are more about scarcity than demand and people are buying this set based on hype/lottery tickets despite it being a losing proposition.
I don't think I want to get too invested into the debate going on currently, but I feel the need to point out that there were several cards that dropped quite a bit due to Modern Masters. Fulminator Mages dropped to about $15-20 easily; they were closer to $30+. Now they're back up to $17-25, but if you're diligent and picked them up within the first several months, you'd have saved a decent bit. Dark Confidant is now $40 instead of the $75 it was at. Yeah, it did take 2 printings in MM1 and MM2 to lower, but the fact of the matter is it's still cheaper now. Same exact thing for Vendilion Clique, who's also sitting at $35. Spellskite was closer to $20 easily back when it got reprinted in MM2. It's up again to $30, yes, but the price did dip for a solid time. I even got a foil Skite for $30 card value 1-2 months after release. Emrakul was reaching $40-50 easily. Now it can be had for $27-30 (it's only recently been going up again because of Nahiri in Modern). Cryptic Command was easily $50 before MM1. After MM1, sadly, still remained $35-40, yes, but it still deflated some. Then from there it got reprinted a second time and is now easily had for $25. Remand used to be a $15+ card even after reprint in a Duel Deck. It's easily had for $5 now.
Pretty much all the listings that I posted were mid values. If you wanted to buy, you can get it for a few bucks cheaper still.
Upon the announcement of reprint, Wasteland started dropping from its ~$65 price tag to easily 50. And now? Wasteland from Eternal Masters is about $47 mid -- and if you shop around and want to spend cash, then you can actually get it for about $35-37. That's way less now. No, it's not reprinted into the ground (sure would be nice and all...I guess), but roughly $35 is much less than $65+. I remember I picked my 2 Tempest copies up a while ago for closer to $100...the card's weird because it had a tendency to cool then rise again; I think the card stabilized around $65-75 though. Anyway, there's plenty of cards that lowered. Jace, the Mind Sculptor can be had for $65 now, from its $75-80+ tag. Kinda wish Force of Wills were cheaper, but hey, it's a lynchpin card in the format -- at Mythic no less, so what do you expect?
So...I'm not sure how low is good enough for you, but in my eyes, EMA has done its job. I wish the packs weren't so expensive; I'd really like to draft it more than like, 2 times. But all the cheap commons/uncommons had their values nuked, and the rares had a decent bit of value lost too. If nothing else, there's at least a little more supply now.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
So... Wasteland flirted with my optimistic prediction of 35$ for a few hours on tcg, but has since stabilized at $40, in other news force of will has overtaken mana crypt as being most expensive card in EMA (barely). Uncommons and such have failed to see much of a drop. This is of course only two days after release, but the market has not yet been flooded with Young Pyromancer, Cabal Therapy, Daze, Chain Lightning, etc. One shop in my area is already out of product and had to cancel drafts. The other shops seem fine on supply, one still has boxes at msrp.
Death and Taxes and Merfolk use none. Neither does Burn. Goblins doesn't (at least the monocolored versions). If they had printed Aether Vial, Cavern of Souls, Rishadan Port, Goblin Guide, and Chalice of the Void (either in here or in MM2), these decks would all be fairly accessible right now.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Pushing all the value to RL cards is what will drive people to the Chinese fakes. There already is a market for them but right now they don't pose a real threat to the secondary market. The scary thing though is that the Chinese fakes keep getting better and better. At some point they are going to become extremely difficult to differentiate between them and authentic cards. Once that happens they will flood the market and all hell will break loose.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
MORAL OF THE STORY: Don't counterfeit. Get or make a play test card that looks good, but for Pete's sake, STOP FEEDING THE BEAST IT WILL CONSUME US ALL.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
GRGGR TronGRG
GWURKnight FallGWUR
Legacy
GWBDark MaverickGWB
--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU
Snap buy them at that price. Unless they turn up in a standard set or a Commander deck, it will rebound hard, quickly.
Standard prices have nothing to do with the size of the player base, increasing the number of players doesn't affect the price of boosters. The increased cost of standard comes from the increase in the number of cards printed each year, mythic rares, rarity upticks and the faster rotation of cards. Nor would I praise the price of current standard when we just had a card going for nearly $400 a playset. They could address both problems with one simple step. Reprinting staples of older formats in standard sets, which both increases supply and drops standard prices by eating into the box ev. But wotc has decided to do the opposite.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
Reprinting staples is the reason we had a $400/playset card. Without the fetches being in Standard, we don't have a card like Jace being ubiquitous in EVERY deck and homogenizing standard to 4 color goodstuff that the format had degenerated to. Now that the fetches are gone, Jace playsets can be found for as cheap as $125.
Or if you want to go back a little further, lets look at the M14/Theros block standard with Thoughtseize and Mutavault. Those two cards alone warped the standard environment around them the entire time they were in standard and are openly acknowledged as a mistake on Wizards' part.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/143662137778/reprints-question-b-so-much-more-bs-mtg#notes
What you propose would make standard a living hell. Wizards' already tried it and found it to be a bad idea.
/edit - apologies - I'm getting off track with the purpose of this thread.
Player base has a LOT to do with standard prices. This is basic supply/demand. Increasing the number of players wanting a specific card drives the price of that card. This is supply and demand. As far as a quicker rotation leading to a higher price, I'd argue that because cards rotate more frequently, buyers are more hesitant to plunk down as much money for a card that will only see play throughout a shorter life. What drives cards through the roof (like JVP) is when WoTC prints something that's good enough to keep seeing play past it's standard life. Now people want that card not just because it's obviously a powerhouse, but also because it's a card that has eternal value. JVP is the exception to the rule these days, and aside from the occasional "oops mythic", standard cards, particularly ones that are ONLY good enough for standard, are $10 or less most of the time. Every single time a card breaks the $20 mark, it is almost exclusively because the card is good in other formats. And this is ok. There's an attached value to a card that has value past its life in standard, especially when that card is a proven powerhouse (like the reprint of Thoughtseize).
These days, most rares, unless they're a reprint of something that's already worth a sizable chunk of change, are $5-$10, tops. Most mythics won't break $10 once their price settles. There are always exceptions, outliers if you will, but aside from the occasional JVP or Dragonlord Ojutai, standard is by and large more affordable. Reprinting old format staples in standard is something that WoTC has done here and there, but it's not always been the best idea, as the cards that need the reprints need the reprints because they're expensive, and they're expensive because they're powerful. Tarmogoyf, for example, could really use an en masse printing, but can you imagine what Tarmogoyf would do to standard? Or jamming Rishadan Port into standard?
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Port and Goyf both started in standard. If you are afraid of those cards in standard, print other cards in standard that help balance them.
Wasteland and Graveyard hate.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
If you want to print a set featuring a while bunch of overpowered, non reserve list tournament staples, you are either going to A) Completely WRECK standard or B) Make a limited print run as a standalone set.
Like some kind of Legacy Champions set. That's not got quite the ring to it though.
How about "Legacy Masters?" That's....close......
"Eternal Champions?" Crap, I can't come up with a good name, nevermind, torch that idea.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
I get your point... I'm just saying that I hate the "take over Standard" excuse. Cards do that all the time. Sometimes standard has card(s) that are auto includes.
Currently Playing:
Standard:
Nothing, the format Bores me!
Legacy:
RBurn (Made on the Cheap!)R
RGBelcherRG
WSoldier StompyW
BReanimatorB
EDH:
BUGRWSliver OverlordWRGUB
BGeth, Lord of the VaultB
Auto includes like fetchlands, cheap burn spells if you're in red, cheap tempo cards in blue, cheap removal in black, etc.....cards that you just play if you're in those colors, those are fine. The issues occur when a single card is so strong that it makes people shove it in wherever they possibly can, or the card is SO good that NOT playing a deck with it is suicidal. And a lot of the cards that are high cost Legacy staples that people want to see reprinted are just that busted. There's just no comparison to them in standard. I mean, you'd be crazy not to play the deck that ran 4x Vampiric Tutor, a card so strong it's banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage. Mystical Tutor? How many decks would splash to play this or Enlightened with great ease?
The cards that need the reprints are the ones wizards would be most terrified of putting into standard because whenever they do screw up, people leave it out of sheer frustration. Some people are fine with shrugging their shoulders and playing THE deck till it rotates....or gets banned...but, many other people are of the attitude that if my choices are to play Faeries or not play Magic, or play Affinity or Anti-Affinity and these are the choices I have.....well...screw standard, I'll go do something else while I wait on that crap to rotate.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
1. Supply of standard product can and almost always is printed to meet demand.
2. If it really where a supply/demand issue we'd see a rise in the EV of booster boxes, we don't
Do you have any evedince to back this up or is it baseless conjuncture?
Really let's take a look at the expensive cards from last year, That where over $10 (most over $20) and have little to - no eternal vaule
Elspeth
Courser of Kruphix
Nissa, Worldwaker
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)
Den Protector
Deathmist Raptor
Stormbreath Dragon
Goblin Rabblemaster
Xenagos, the Reveler
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
This is not a full list, these are just cards from the first two decklists I saw.
Also what standard staple mythic settled below $10 while still seeing play?
You realize that cards being powerful in eternal =/= card being powerful in standard. We had goyf in standard, it wasn't a problem, sure it was good but it was fine. Sure there are some cards that shouldn't be in standard and for them the can get the expedition treatment. Problem solved.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
1) I think we're having some miscommunication in regards to what you're trying to say about supply/demand. If supply is meeting demand, then prices are determined by playability of the card, not artificial scarcity by underprinting. Larger print runs= greater supply. Like RTR's shocklands, or Khans' fetches, during their lifetime we took cards that were originally $20+ and got them to $10ish. If you needed a playset of a particular land, it wasn't hard to get at all, and their pricetags, despite being the hallmark cards of the sets, were relatively low compared to their values before the reprints. When a set isn't opened much for whatever reason, and the print run is correspondingly lower, any cards that ARE desirable in that set get pricey quick. Like Voice of Resurgence. DGM was a crap set that was lightly opened, but here we have a card with high color requirements breaking $40 just because there were hardly any floating around because no one wanted to open that stupid set. If Voice had been printed in RTR instead, we'd be looking at MAYBE half that price, almost assuredly. RTR is a good example of what happens when high supply exists. For a while, Thoughtseize was even $15, when before the reprint it was breaking $60. Abrupt Decay is a Legacy/modern staple and it's taken quite a while to get to just $15. During standard and afterwards it was a whopping $7. Anyway, I'm not seeing how having a larger player base=more supply=higher pricing, so I figure that's got to be misworded or I'm reading it wrong.
2) You're right, there isn't a supply/demand issue for sealed product as a whole, and there aren't usually supply issues for a particular card unless we get a Voice of Resurgence scenario. Hence my argument that a rising playerbase does not= a rise in cost for the player. If you have a set with a perceived high EV, it gets opened like crazy because there IS such value and as long as WoTC keeps printing it, you'll see prices fall until the set goes out of print for a while. Again, look at RTR, there was SO much EV in that set when it released. You could open any number of shocklands or Thoughtseize or Decay or DRS, or Sphinx's Revelation.....the list of cards in that set worth $$$ was just tremendous and card prices ended up being suppressed for most of the set through its standard life with what, Sphinx's Rev carrying the highest pricetag at $20ish? Eventually the supply catches up and the EV of a box falls, but opening RTR was still a winning proposition.
I wouldn't say my above statement is BASELESS conjecture, though I will say that it's just my opinion. It makes more sense to me that if a card has a shortened lifespan, it runs into the "pre-rotation jitters" more quickly and doesn't live as long at its highest price. But no, I have no hard evidence for this, it is just my opinion. This arguably makes the point that it makes STANDARD more expensive, not necessarily a particular CARD more expensive. Standard has always been a losing proposition for anyone unwilling to flip their stock before rotation arrives, and this just accelerates the process. Even though a card might run into rotation sooner and cause it to live at a higher pricetag for less time as a result, the quickened rotation is what's screwing people, not the actual cost because you don't get to play that card as long.
Now let's take a look at the cards you've listed:
Elspeth- Got reprinted in Dual Decks. Was the namesake card during "Elspeth: the Gathering" when literally every single T1 deck ran her. Dominated standard and the only thing that kept her from breaking $40 was the fact that Theros was so heavily opened. This is an outlier and an example of a card that overtook games so easily that it was evident that the easiest way to beat her was to play her. She got a reprint in the deul decks before rotation and even so still carried a $15 pricetag afterwards, which was fair and made her much more obtainable for people still wanting to play her.
Courser of Kruphix- Got expensive for a little bit, but people recognized this thing was good enough to see Modern play.
Nissa, Worldwaker- Spiked hard to $40, didn't stick there long. More of her life was spent at $20, then $10 as alternatives to playing her popped up. She still saw play, but her necessity dropped as other alternatives to playing her showed up.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (has causal value for sure)- This is a Dragon Planeswalker that is good enough to see play in Legacy MUD, various tron decks, and modern to boot. His pricetag is high, but it's real and actually fair. There will remain a steady demand for this card for all time and we'll see something akin to Karn, Planeswalker pricing. We knew this while he was in standard and is a rare example of a card that deserves to be a $50 bill.
Den Protector- Spiked high to what, $15 and quickly settled at $12ish.
Deathmist Raptor- This was a flash in the pan and everyone knew it. It carried it's $30ish pricetag as long as it could.
Stormbreath Dragon- One of the best cards in standard at the time. One of the first truly GOOD dragons, and got some Modern love.
Goblin Rabblemaster- Spiked to what, $20 when he was seeing play in every deck that could make red mana. He settled a bit, no one wanted to pay $20 for a card that wasn't even mythic, but again, he saw play across several different decks.
Xenagos, the Reveler- Peaked at what, $17 and saw play as like a 2 of?
Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker- Ended up being sub $10 while still in standard. He spiked for a bit when he actually got played, but I remember him being $15 avg. That's not that bad, especially considering he was never a 4x.
Most of these cards are non-issues, even if they exhibited a temporarily high pricetag, a decent chunk of them were never a 4x. Deathmist, Stormbreath, and Rabblemaster might be exceptopn.
Most of these cards saw temporary spikes which then eased off, particularly the rares. The only card I found to be a real offender on this list was how long Deathmist Raptor lived at the $35 pricetag. I get that when a card starts doing well it creates a sudden, huge interest in a card that can send its pricetag to unreasonable levels, but if you're willing to wait for the initial rush to subside, I don't feel like asking $12 or even $20 is too much for a card that is a cornerstone of a deck, especially if you only need 2 of them. What I have a problem with is when EVERY card in the deck is $15 and up. Please note I said "most mythics with settle below $10" not "most staple mythics". Even so, again, we see most of the Mythics on that list settling at not much higher than $10, like Elspeth (thanks to the Duel Decks), Sarkhan (ended up right AT $10), and Xenagos. Stormbreath ended up around $15. Again, the only card I take issue with was Deathmist, that card should never have stayed at its pricetag as long as it did.
Magic has a variety of options when it comes to how much you want to spend on standard and still be competitive. It's ok to have a deck that costs $400 to build, as long as that's not the deck you HAVE to build in order to be competitive. If you're going to have a rotating format like Standard, it is unreasonable, however, to print mistakes that allow decks like Caw-Blade to emerge. That deck was $800 and thre was simply no way to beat it unless you got real lucky, its pilot sucked, or you were also playing it. U/B faeries is another example; at least half the cards in the damn deck were $20. THESE are the offenders. What we're looking at more often than not are decks running a bunch of $5ish cards, maybe a playset or two of some $10 bills, and maybe 6-8 cards in to $20ish range. We see decks like Theros block U/W humans that could be built for less than $50 and win. And we sometimes see things like Mythics.dec, but the important thing is we're not seeing Caw-Blade, or U/B Fae anymore......but I'll grant that JvP I think, was an unfortunate accident.
As far as to your last statement, I'm well aware that a card being powerful in eternal does not necessarily equal to being powerful in Standard, but then again, for every Force of Will, there's a Necropotence or a JtMS. Furthermore, there are cases where some Legacy staples would sometimes be fine in standard, and sometimes not. Would you want to see Deathrite Shaman in Khans with all the fetches? No, he'd be in every deck. Goyf is probably just strong if he were printed right now, but he'd be a little more insane back in Theros when we Commune and Mulch were seeing heavy play. And then some cards will almost always be busted.
I like the idea of the Expedition treatment for cards besides lands, but the issue there is that when you start doing this to any card you please, expeditions become less special and start looking more and more like a money grab. "Here's a perfectly average set, not broken but not trash either...... but you COULD open an Expedition Vendilion Clique!"
EMA is the best way to approach this, but it'll be a process. It'll take a couple EMAs or MMAs to drag the prices down for everything that you want to/can actually impact, you can't just print a set where every rare is a reprint of a $40+ bill in one shot.
I would rather see WoTC go back to the MPR system personally, those cards were always cool and exciting to get.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
The list of money cards in RTR is even more impressive when the money card from THS gets added to it
So it sounds like you agree that the increased cost of standard prices has nothing to do with increasing playerbase.
For all the cards you addressed, It doesn't really matter that they where reprinted ect... the fact is they all held a value above $10 in standard despite having no to little eternal value.
I did a quick check back through the sets from rtr to dragons of tarkir. Looking at the cards that were over $10 due that had atleast half of there value come from other formats, there where under 20 when you remove reprints from that list it dropped to around 5.
EMA is the worst way to do it as the EV =< box cost, if you want to drop prices EV >= box cost. It doesn't really matter if expeditions aren't special I think most players would still be happy to open a card that's worth $50-$200. Also note that RTR which you praised for it's high supply good EV and lower than average prices had a good portion of it's EV in reprints.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
At launch of a new set, many powerful mythics are going to have a higher price tag until the set gets drafted and opened enough for supply to catch up and then these cards fall most of the time. Very rarely do they stick at their initial pricetags and most often settle in the $10-$15 range, so maybe my $10 estimate was a little off, but not by much. Yeah, there are a few annoying exceptions to that, but by and large the cost to complete an entire deck has fallen. It sucks when $100 of a $400 deck is occupied by a playset of a certain card, but I'd rather be in that boat than the "all cards are under $30, but every card in the deck is at LEAST $10 and the deck costs $700 to build.
I am ALL about reprints being done in modern sets for a variety of reasons. It helps slow down power creep, it causes prices of those cards to drop, etc. But the reprints also need to be done with care. We like reprints, but we also like to see new cards and some cards are just really hard to reprint in standard because they're either too powerful, or they make no sense lore-wise. You can't reprint Karakas on Zendikar, and you can't open a Rishadan Port on Innistrad. Additionally, Wizards has deemed certain cards as antagonistic to standard and won't print cards like them in a standard environment anymore. Winter Orb is an example, and so are 4 mana wraths, and Armageddon at 4 mana. 3 mana or less land destruction is also deemed "unfun." To address these cards and get them reprinted, expedition versions wouldn't help. Not that Winter Orb is expensive or anything, but Rishadan Port is a better example. EMA/MMA style sets lets Wizards reprint a bunch of cards that could not be printed in standard for one reason or another and have control over how many new Force of Wills enter the wild since the set is limited in print run. It makes for a very tasty apple to dangle that someone is gonna buy, because hey, foil Force of Will, amiright?
Personally I think EMA should have been a little more aggressive in the EV, I agree with you there. This is the first time WoTC has done a Legacy-based set, and I suspect they're being very careful not to cause the sky to fall too much. I think next year, EMA2 will probably be a little more aggressive in what they reprint. But EMA will do more to help drop card values of non RL cards than, say, an expedition Bitterblossom or whatever. Expeditions are so rare that the increased supply has pretty much zero bearing on the card's pricetag. Out of all the expedition lands printed, did ANY of them drop?
I'm not saying that EMA is a GREAT solution to the problem, or that this EMA is not without its faults and should have been done a little differently, but I AM saying it's probably the BEST course of action. EMA having EV =<box cost is a tactic to compensate for the limited print run. If the EV was >= box cost, stores would just crack the boxes to sell the singles and any product that hit the floor would sell out instantly and that owuld be that. By easing the value off, stores are going to want to actually sell the product instead of opening it, and players are not going to buy out inventory of a limited run product on day 1, giving everyone the chance to buy a pack or two.
I would love it if every card in the set was a home run, but I'd also be willing to be many people, including myself, would at best get to touch the wrappers in a trash can before the set goes out of print.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Cracking packs can be exciting or a relentless feel-bad-march. There is so much drek in this set.
Those both sound like terrible situations. I think we'll see more of both as more and better staples get printed at mythic.
Prices hardly dropped at all for anything in MM the only thing that really dropped where causal cards and uncommons. I'm sure EMA will have an effect as legacy cards prices are more about scarcity than demand and people are buying this set based on hype/lottery tickets despite it being a losing proposition.
Which is why they can go the expeditions route as stated earlier.
If the selling point of the set is a lottery ticket it's a poorly designed set. EMA/MMA is just WOTC way to cash in on the secondary market.
I doubt WOTC will increase the EV until the sets stop selling. No the last round of expeditions didn't affect their prices but that was only one sets worth of printing. Also I think that there were about one per case, I'm thinking they should be one per booster-box .
Well we saw how well that worked for MM2, after the initial hype it stopped selling, last time I checked you can still buy a box of it for retail. I don't get this mentality on this forum of "it's better to be able buy something you don't want than to have a shot at something you do want". For MM1 none of my LGS hoarded any of the product or raised the price and some of them are scummy stores, nor would it be hard for Wotc to crack down on such behavior.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
I don't think I want to get too invested into the debate going on currently, but I feel the need to point out that there were several cards that dropped quite a bit due to Modern Masters. Fulminator Mages dropped to about $15-20 easily; they were closer to $30+. Now they're back up to $17-25, but if you're diligent and picked them up within the first several months, you'd have saved a decent bit. Dark Confidant is now $40 instead of the $75 it was at. Yeah, it did take 2 printings in MM1 and MM2 to lower, but the fact of the matter is it's still cheaper now. Same exact thing for Vendilion Clique, who's also sitting at $35. Spellskite was closer to $20 easily back when it got reprinted in MM2. It's up again to $30, yes, but the price did dip for a solid time. I even got a foil Skite for $30 card value 1-2 months after release. Emrakul was reaching $40-50 easily. Now it can be had for $27-30 (it's only recently been going up again because of Nahiri in Modern). Cryptic Command was easily $50 before MM1. After MM1, sadly, still remained $35-40, yes, but it still deflated some. Then from there it got reprinted a second time and is now easily had for $25. Remand used to be a $15+ card even after reprint in a Duel Deck. It's easily had for $5 now.
Pretty much all the listings that I posted were mid values. If you wanted to buy, you can get it for a few bucks cheaper still.
Upon the announcement of reprint, Wasteland started dropping from its ~$65 price tag to easily 50. And now? Wasteland from Eternal Masters is about $47 mid -- and if you shop around and want to spend cash, then you can actually get it for about $35-37. That's way less now. No, it's not reprinted into the ground (sure would be nice and all...I guess), but roughly $35 is much less than $65+. I remember I picked my 2 Tempest copies up a while ago for closer to $100...the card's weird because it had a tendency to cool then rise again; I think the card stabilized around $65-75 though. Anyway, there's plenty of cards that lowered. Jace, the Mind Sculptor can be had for $65 now, from its $75-80+ tag. Kinda wish Force of Wills were cheaper, but hey, it's a lynchpin card in the format -- at Mythic no less, so what do you expect?
So...I'm not sure how low is good enough for you, but in my eyes, EMA has done its job. I wish the packs weren't so expensive; I'd really like to draft it more than like, 2 times. But all the cheap commons/uncommons had their values nuked, and the rares had a decent bit of value lost too. If nothing else, there's at least a little more supply now.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
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Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
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My Cube on CubeTutor
RBU
Splinter Twin (RIP)/DelverRBUUUUMono U TronUUU
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--> EDH <--
BWUErtai, the CorruptedBWU