Going forward from now, The Running Tally of Current Sets will be an article instead of threads here in Market Street Café. You are still welcome to post there about the tracking of current sets. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to talk me, the Senior Staff, or any other Market Street Café staff member.
Thank you for all your support.
- Market Street Café Staff
I do like the new format on the front page, but I kind of miss having specific discussion threads here for them.
I do agree that I miss that and that is my biggest regret in doing this. Hopefully the conversations will still go on there.
Can you have the articles over there... and then link to a discussion post here in that article? People still would have to visit the main page for the info/blog... and you could still have discussion here (and possibly funnel more people to this subforum).
Personally, I'd keep the huge gainers in the various formats as topics here and only move the sets tallies to the article. The format threads were more popular anyway. There is no such thing as a modern or commander tally in the article anyway and it's hard to discuss modern gainers in a set tally.
Isn't that what they did? The huge gainers are still here on market street right?
Still this move will slowly hurt the markset street cafe I feel as most people find this area because of those tally threads. That's why I was thinking if they at least link to a discussion post (that is in marketstreet cafe) from the tally articles on the mainpage... it could be a good compromise and also serve as a good way to link up all the tally posts from week to week.
Isn't that what they did? The huge gainers are still here on market street right?
Lol, I notice now! I thought they were locked because the pin was greyed, but I see that's just because there were no new posts on it since my last check
But still, for a game played by millions of players, I find the popularity of this forum lacking a bit. Isn't mtgsalvation the biggest mtg forum around?
It's possible. We certainly have the best spoilers (based on the fact that SCG gets their spoilers from us). That's why I'm here. But as this particular subforum goes, not every Magic player cares about how much their cards are worth. In fact, a lot of them don't. One of my friends persistently ignores values and just trades what he doesn't need for what he does want, even if that's blatantly not in his favor. He just doesn't care.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
I'm going to respond to a couple things at once here. For background's sake, I'm the editor behind this project and it was my idea to move the running tallies to the front page.
Can you have the articles over there... and then link to a discussion post here in that article? People still would have to visit the main page for the info/blog... and you could still have discussion here (and possibly funnel more people to this subforum).
This is certainly something we can do. While articles have built-in discussion threads, longer-term discussion of price movements requires that there be a certain continuity to the discussion as well as easily-accessed history. Article comments aren't suited to this task, so running tally updates can certainly contain a link to the MS Cafe. I'll have to confer with Rai as to whether they should go to this thread of a new dedicated thread, but it's something we can look at implementing either for Friday's or the following Monday's update.
Still this move will slowly hurt the markset street cafe I feel as most people find this area because of those tally threads.
The rationale behind moving the running tallies to the front page was that we're currently lacking regular frontpage content beyond the odd spoiler digest or Word of Command article. Getting more front-page traffic will help the site as a whole, especially if readers are given an incentive to keep coming back week after week. I've talked to quite a number of people for whom MTGS is nothing more than "I go there for spoilers," so hopefully we can keep some of the information-seeking-only segment around for this. Combined with primary discussion staying within MS Cafe, the overall effects of this change should be quite positive.
Finally, to address Pigglebee's feedback, there are currently no plans to move the format-specific huge gainers threads to the front page, as those are community-driven and also reactionary in nature. While it would certainly be possible to have some sort of Quiet Speculation-like "ride the changes as they happen" content, the huge gainers threads would be unaffected.
Currently the MS staff is discussing the exact details of how to handle a Running Tally Discussion Thread. There will be one, we are just discussing the details.
Thank you for the interest. It does make me feel good about the work put into doing it.
The rationale behind moving the running tallies to the front page was that we're currently lacking regular frontpage content beyond the odd spoiler digest or Word of Command article. Getting more front-page traffic will help the site as a whole, especially if readers are given an incentive to keep coming back week after week. I've talked to quite a number of people for whom MTGS is nothing more than "I go there for spoilers," so hopefully we can keep some of the information-seeking-only segment around for this. Combined with primary discussion staying within MS Cafe, the overall effects of this change should be quite positive.
I've been visiting MTGSalvation less often since the tally threads disappeared. The tally threads had already lost significant value when historical data was dropped from the updates; change over a 3 or 4 day period often isn't that useful. I understand not wanting to rely upon a user for what is considered important content, but the site provided content ought to be of at least the same quality as the user content that it replaces.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
A lot of the problem with including historical data stems from how our article system works. It's not as easy to get plugins into our articles as it is for, say, MTG Goldfish or MTG Stocks, owing to how Cobalt (our forum/site software) works. The end result is that, while there are charts available for historic price trends if you click on the card names and display their individual pages, working that into an article is prohibitive because there simply aren't scripting options available. We can talk to Curse about the issue, but unfortunately it would probably be quite some time before scripting in articles becomes a feature we can implement. Other options, like static images displaying price graphs, become prohibitive due to the labour involved. Rest assured we're looking into improving the running tally updates, but we're unfortunately constrained by technical issues in some respects.
In addition, while I'm not sure how much I can speak to the issue behind rancored_elf being taken off the tally (I'm privy to a number of details I don't know if I'm allowed to disclose), I can definitely say that it was a conscious, reasoned decision. We knew that his work set the bar quite high, and that while we may not be quite there yet, we do want to provide the best information we can to the users. Feedback like this thread is crucial to help us improve the content we're delivering to you, and we appreciate any further comments, questions, concerns, and constructive criticism.
I see no good reason to have ruined a perfectly good system
There was at least one publicly given reason, that being that R_E's running tally essentially boiled down to a single store advertising its prices. Now, I don't know Teia's Secret Mod reasons, but this alone is enough for the staff to make a reasoned decision.
Personally, I thought that R_E did an immense service for this community, and I am sad to see his tallies go (and I see pretty much zero posts from him in other threads). But I understand at least the public reason given why the threads needed to change.
It's also been brought up (in this very thread, no less, some 5 posts ago) that the front page lacks content. Granted, a lot of people come to MTGS for the spoilers, and so "live" in the rumor mill, but if the site is going to grow then front-page content is kind of essential. These threads, if they can be done right, could be a great draw for new users.
So take heart. The system is not ruined, it's in flux. Yes, it's sub-optimal at the moment, but if we (and by "we", I mean "the site admins", of whom I am not one) don't innovate, we'll stagnate (this time "we" is the entire site). Smart people are working on the problem, and eventually they will find a solution. It may be slightly out of our comfort zone, but they'll get there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
A lot of the problem with including historical data stems from how our article system works. It's not as easy to get plugins into our articles as it is for, say, MTG Goldfish or MTG Stocks, owing to how Cobalt (our forum/site software) works. The end result is that, while there are charts available for historic price trends if you click on the card names and display their individual pages, working that into an article is prohibitive because there simply aren't scripting options available. We can talk to Curse about the issue, but unfortunately it would probably be quite some time before scripting in articles becomes a feature we can implement. Other options, like static images displaying price graphs, become prohibitive due to the labour involved. Rest assured we're looking into improving the running tally updates, but we're unfortunately constrained by technical issues in some respects.
I don't need fancy graphs. All I need is a visual history of the changes. Every update has a +/-$ for each card. Color code these. And, don't delete them between updates. Include those changes for the last 10 periods. That would improve things immensely.
To the matter of front page articles needed in order to make the site better: I don't think this is the case. There are plenty of places around the web to find MTG articles. There are not so many places for interactive discussions; I visit a few sites on a weekly basis to read articles, I only visit one forum site. I've only read one "article" at MTGS, the running tally article, so I can't really comment on their quality, but from what I have seen, they are not very frequent.
But anyway, I come here for the interactive discussion, not so much to just read what others have to say. The content I have most enjoyed and appreciated is deck discussion in which a "known" player took part. That sort of thing is the niche of forums, what sets it apart from other MTG sites.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I just use mtgstocks.com. I liked Jeff's updates way better than RE or the new one and discussion (Stifled) was the only reason to visit the threads on this forum.
I see no good reason to have ruined a perfectly good system
There was at least one publicly given reason, that being that R_E's running tally essentially boiled down to a single store advertising its prices. Now, I don't know Teia's Secret Mod reasons, but this alone is enough for the staff to make a reasoned decision.
Personally, I thought that R_E did an immense service for this community, and I am sad to see his tallies go (and I see pretty much zero posts from him in other threads). But I understand at least the public reason given why the threads needed to change.
It's also been brought up (in this very thread, no less, some 5 posts ago) that the front page lacks content. Granted, a lot of people come to MTGS for the spoilers, and so "live" in the rumor mill, but if the site is going to grow then front-page content is kind of essential. These threads, if they can be done right, could be a great draw for new users.
So take heart. The system is not ruined, it's in flux. Yes, it's sub-optimal at the moment, but if we (and by "we", I mean "the site admins", of whom I am not one) don't innovate, we'll stagnate (this time "we" is the entire site). Smart people are working on the problem, and eventually they will find a solution. It may be slightly out of our comfort zone, but they'll get there.
You are right, a reason was given. It's just not a good one.
Any thoughts on the changeover? I can't know whether the "threads" have received more views, but it sure seems to me like they get fewer comments. In fact, the discussion seems to have disappeared altogether.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Because we cannot prevent draws in paper Magic we allow IDs. If we could prevent draws we would not have IDs in paper Magic. " Scott Larabee.
I haven't actually gone to the new area since my last post in this thread. Just as the migration seemed to have damaged the trading community here, the move of these threads appears to have done the same.
I have to be honest myself. The standard set threads were something I did when others appeared interested in such information for the sets here in market street. I haven't really benefitted from such updates myself in a while since I stopped dealing in standard stuff after I left the shop (khans excluded "because fetchlands" :p). Now that they have been moved out of market street, its largely been out of sight, out of mind, so I haven't really given them much thought, and likely wont be updating them any further. Special products like modern masters or commander decks or other such things I will likely update from time to time here in market street. Basically, for me, Market street here is my home, I occasionally venture outside of market street but I don't tend to actively post much elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the move. I understand why it was done, but my contributions to those threads is basically over now.
I have to be honest myself. The standard set threads were something I did when others appeared interested in such information for the sets here in market street. I haven't really benefitted from such updates myself in a while since I stopped dealing in standard stuff after I left the shop (khans excluded "because fetchlands" :p). Now that they have been moved out of market street, its largely been out of sight, out of mind, so I haven't really given them much thought, and likely wont be updating them any further. Special products like modern masters or commander decks or other such things I will likely update from time to time here in market street. Basically, for me, Market street here is my home, I occasionally venture outside of market street but I don't tend to actively post much elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the move. I understand why it was done, but my contributions to those threads is basically over now.
I can empathize, Jeff. I live on Market Street too (with frequent trips back to my first house, in the Rumor Mill), and now that those threads aren't here, I just ... forget about them until I see this thread pop up.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Along with many mods, I've moved shop over to MTGNexus. Come check us out!
I have to be honest myself. The standard set threads were something I did when others appeared interested in such information for the sets here in market street. I haven't really benefitted from such updates myself in a while since I stopped dealing in standard stuff after I left the shop (khans excluded "because fetchlands" :p). Now that they have been moved out of market street, its largely been out of sight, out of mind, so I haven't really given them much thought, and likely wont be updating them any further. Special products like modern masters or commander decks or other such things I will likely update from time to time here in market street. Basically, for me, Market street here is my home, I occasionally venture outside of market street but I don't tend to actively post much elsewhere. Just my thoughts on the move. I understand why it was done, but my contributions to those threads is basically over now.
This is unfortunate, as I found your updates to be the most useful/accurate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Going forward from now, The Running Tally of Current Sets will be an article instead of threads here in Market Street Café. You are still welcome to post there about the tracking of current sets. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to talk me, the Senior Staff, or any other Market Street Café staff member.
Thank you for all your support.
- Market Street Café Staff
I do agree that I miss that and that is my biggest regret in doing this. Hopefully the conversations will still go on there.
Isn't that what they did? The huge gainers are still here on market street right?
Still this move will slowly hurt the markset street cafe I feel as most people find this area because of those tally threads. That's why I was thinking if they at least link to a discussion post (that is in marketstreet cafe) from the tally articles on the mainpage... it could be a good compromise and also serve as a good way to link up all the tally posts from week to week.
It's possible. We certainly have the best spoilers (based on the fact that SCG gets their spoilers from us). That's why I'm here. But as this particular subforum goes, not every Magic player cares about how much their cards are worth. In fact, a lot of them don't. One of my friends persistently ignores values and just trades what he doesn't need for what he does want, even if that's blatantly not in his favor. He just doesn't care.
This is certainly something we can do. While articles have built-in discussion threads, longer-term discussion of price movements requires that there be a certain continuity to the discussion as well as easily-accessed history. Article comments aren't suited to this task, so running tally updates can certainly contain a link to the MS Cafe. I'll have to confer with Rai as to whether they should go to this thread of a new dedicated thread, but it's something we can look at implementing either for Friday's or the following Monday's update.
The rationale behind moving the running tallies to the front page was that we're currently lacking regular frontpage content beyond the odd spoiler digest or Word of Command article. Getting more front-page traffic will help the site as a whole, especially if readers are given an incentive to keep coming back week after week. I've talked to quite a number of people for whom MTGS is nothing more than "I go there for spoilers," so hopefully we can keep some of the information-seeking-only segment around for this. Combined with primary discussion staying within MS Cafe, the overall effects of this change should be quite positive.
Finally, to address Pigglebee's feedback, there are currently no plans to move the format-specific huge gainers threads to the front page, as those are community-driven and also reactionary in nature. While it would certainly be possible to have some sort of Quiet Speculation-like "ride the changes as they happen" content, the huge gainers threads would be unaffected.
Thank you for the interest. It does make me feel good about the work put into doing it.
I've been visiting MTGSalvation less often since the tally threads disappeared. The tally threads had already lost significant value when historical data was dropped from the updates; change over a 3 or 4 day period often isn't that useful. I understand not wanting to rely upon a user for what is considered important content, but the site provided content ought to be of at least the same quality as the user content that it replaces.
In addition, while I'm not sure how much I can speak to the issue behind rancored_elf being taken off the tally (I'm privy to a number of details I don't know if I'm allowed to disclose), I can definitely say that it was a conscious, reasoned decision. We knew that his work set the bar quite high, and that while we may not be quite there yet, we do want to provide the best information we can to the users. Feedback like this thread is crucial to help us improve the content we're delivering to you, and we appreciate any further comments, questions, concerns, and constructive criticism.
There was at least one publicly given reason, that being that R_E's running tally essentially boiled down to a single store advertising its prices. Now, I don't know Teia's Secret Mod reasons, but this alone is enough for the staff to make a reasoned decision.
Personally, I thought that R_E did an immense service for this community, and I am sad to see his tallies go (and I see pretty much zero posts from him in other threads). But I understand at least the public reason given why the threads needed to change.
It's also been brought up (in this very thread, no less, some 5 posts ago) that the front page lacks content. Granted, a lot of people come to MTGS for the spoilers, and so "live" in the rumor mill, but if the site is going to grow then front-page content is kind of essential. These threads, if they can be done right, could be a great draw for new users.
So take heart. The system is not ruined, it's in flux. Yes, it's sub-optimal at the moment, but if we (and by "we", I mean "the site admins", of whom I am not one) don't innovate, we'll stagnate (this time "we" is the entire site). Smart people are working on the problem, and eventually they will find a solution. It may be slightly out of our comfort zone, but they'll get there.
I don't need fancy graphs. All I need is a visual history of the changes. Every update has a +/-$ for each card. Color code these. And, don't delete them between updates. Include those changes for the last 10 periods. That would improve things immensely.
To the matter of front page articles needed in order to make the site better: I don't think this is the case. There are plenty of places around the web to find MTG articles. There are not so many places for interactive discussions; I visit a few sites on a weekly basis to read articles, I only visit one forum site. I've only read one "article" at MTGS, the running tally article, so I can't really comment on their quality, but from what I have seen, they are not very frequent.
But anyway, I come here for the interactive discussion, not so much to just read what others have to say. The content I have most enjoyed and appreciated is deck discussion in which a "known" player took part. That sort of thing is the niche of forums, what sets it apart from other MTG sites.
You are right, a reason was given. It's just not a good one.
I can empathize, Jeff. I live on Market Street too (with frequent trips back to my first house, in the Rumor Mill), and now that those threads aren't here, I just ... forget about them until I see this thread pop up.
This is unfortunate, as I found your updates to be the most useful/accurate.