Sold these recently and now the seller opened a case. Images are attached.
He claims the following:
The feel of the cards is wrong: "It just didn't feel "right" it was a rougher card stock and not a semi glossy smooth feel like real NM revised cards"
The corners are off and "too white", the edges are "too thin"
The front and back aren't centered exactly the same
Obviously I can't verify feel from my photos, but as far as I can tell the corners on my cards seem fine (I've compared photos of many other duals I've sold as well as duals I still have). They don't appear to have an alpha cut.
The buyer claims to have verified this with a local shop's owner and several employees.
I sent the buyer another message saying I will accept the return but intend to inspect the card thoroughly myself and bring it to multiple shops in town for independent verification.
Still, I can't help but feel like I might be getting screwed on this; like if the buyer has his own counterfeits that he's sending back to me or something.
Thoughts? Any smoking guns that you can determine in the picture that would actually confirm that they're counterfeit? Any experience dealing with a similar situation?
Unfortunately, there's nothing you can do if he returns you counterfeits. Unless you have super high quality footage of everything, it's your word vs his. The attached pictures are of real cards, but there's no real way to determine whether they are the ones you sent.
What you can do is make sure he returns them. Make sure they are your real cards. Contact eBay with official proof of their legitimacy through an approved grader or shop so you don't get hit. Then e will have to pay you or you can resell them. If he sends you back fakes. Contact eBay show proof(your photos) and get someone to back you up and file a claim against him for theft through eBay. It will go to their high claims decisions to get the issue resolved and you will have to speak to someone on the phone about it. If you are credited seller then you have nothing to worry about. If he sends you back your real cards still get them graded and approved so eBay will suspend his buying privileges.
Unfortunately there isn't anything you can really do in this case. If the buyer sends back different cards than you sent, you cannot prove that. Same if you take a firm stance about no returns. eBay generally sides with the buyer...I mean you could fight it, but it is hard to prove to a third party that knows nothing about the cards and handles millions of transactions to be able to give any meaningful insight other than to fall back on their rule book for how to handle disputes.
The tests that he is using are pretty vague, but the language is probably set up enough for a claim on eBay to succeed. And even if you ask that he performs more tests, there is no way to prove that he actually did those tests.
It is also possible that he is used to buying fakes and just doesn't know how to recognize real cards.
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If the buyer is a bit twitchy in regards to certain issues about the cards, its possible they have ended up with fakes in the past and are simply scared of getting them again. (I wouldn't assume its a buyer trying to scam you with their own fakes, but its important to be cautious anyway.) If they want to return them, then I would simply tell the buyer that as far as you are aware from your own experiences selling cards like duals in the past, they are real, but if the buyer is not satisfied with the cards and doesn't feel comfortable accepting them, then they can most certainly return them to you (with tracking and insurance), and you will provide a full refund to him once they arrive back to you and you verify they are the ones that you originally mailed out to him.
If the buyer seems like someone who would leave you a negative feedback calling you a scammer or a seller of fakes, then you can always do a little research online looking for articles about legitimate issues with things like corner cuts, or centering, or other such things would occur from old cards from back then. Just tell the buyer that you want to make sure they are as comfortable as possible with any purchase they make from you, so if they still feel like they could be fake, returning them is not an issue.
When you get the cards back (Assuming they are the same ones that you sent), then I would run whatever tests you can to verify their authenticity (light test/dot pattern magnification test for a couple of examples). Though the easiest way to 100% verify is to just send them in to be graded (if they are in really good condition anyway) and that would 100% verify it anyway. I know duals in particular are ones to be wary of, and do as much testing as makes you 100% comfortable selling them.
Picky or worried buyers do pop up every now and then (especially for higher end items), its just the nature of the business where people are aware that there are fakes floating around. Anyhow, good luck.
if it were me, I'd get the cards back asap. There may be a shot that he sends you fakes in return, but that's more unlikely than likely, and if the case goes to eBay to decide and they agree with the buyer that these are counterfeit they will order you to refund the buyer and the buyer to destroy the counterfeits, in which case you will be out the money and the cards.
Ugh, this is a perfect example of why dealing locally or at a GP might be best for product like this. I am dreading the day when someone tries to pull this garbage on me, but fortunately so far everyone I've dealt with has not tried any shenanigans (knock on wood). I'm not sure how anyone would fight someone claiming to receive a fake and then send you back a fake to collect their refund and keep the real card you sent them. At that point, you'd only have a case if you happen to be the third or fourth person that person tried this on.
eBay has seller protection as well so if he sends you counterfeits back they will compensate our especially if you have pictures like those where you can see the serial number. Also they might just pay for his money and let him keep the cards. eBay flags stuff like this and you both might be okay financially however both your accounts could get suspended or banned I've gone through this before. Things stolen off my porch worth $200 eBay compensated me however my buying privileges were revoked for 6 months due to item value. The only other option for me and for you would be to make a case with the police. Since the item is worth over $200 you would be able too.
To the above poster ebay is fine but there are other websites you can sell through and whenever selling something of value over $20 photograph and log it and you won't have any problems then because you can simply prove they were lying. Something like dual lands you should have professionally graded and photographed due to their price.
eBay has seller protection as well so if he sends you counterfeits back they will compensate our especially if you have pictures like those where you can see the serial number. Also they might just pay for his money and let him keep the cards. eBay flags stuff like this and you both might be okay financially however both your accounts could get suspended or banned I've gone through this before. Things stolen off my porch worth $200 eBay compensated me however my buying privileges were revoked for 6 months due to item value. The only other option for me and for you would be to make a case with the police. Since the item is worth over $200 you would be able too.
To the above poster ebay is fine but there are other websites you can sell through and whenever selling something of value over $20 photograph and log it and you won't have any problems then because you can simply prove they were lying. Something like dual lands you should have professionally graded and photographed due to their price.
Those are plateaus. They're worth less than Lotv, Snapcaster Mage or a plethora of other cards, but you want him to get them professionally graded. Ok.
@jeffbcrandall: major thanks for your reply. I've bought a lot from you personally and I totally trust you as a seller and trust your thoughts and opinions.
Thanks for the replies and support everyone, I really appreciate it.
I sent a description of how this is going to go to the buyer and I'm waiting for a reply before officially accepting in case he had any questions or concerns about how I handle this.
I'll update the thread with how this goes so that anyone who faces the same thing in the future has an additional point of reference.
eBay has seller protection as well so if he sends you counterfeits back they will compensate our especially if you have pictures like those where you can see the serial number. Also they might just pay for his money and let him keep the cards. eBay flags stuff like this and you both might be okay financially however both your accounts could get suspended or banned I've gone through this before. Things stolen off my porch worth $200 eBay compensated me however my buying privileges were revoked for 6 months due to item value. The only other option for me and for you would be to make a case with the police. Since the item is worth over $200 you would be able too.
To the above poster ebay is fine but there are other websites you can sell through and whenever selling something of value over $20 photograph and log it and you won't have any problems then because you can simply prove they were lying. Something like dual lands you should have professionally graded and photographed due to their price.
Those are plateaus. They're worth less than Lotv, Snapcaster Mage or a plethora of other cards, but you want him to get them professionally graded. Ok.
Yes it cost $0 if you buy something from them If not $2-3 for them to get graded. If you have nothing to add to the conversation but your childish sarcasm and ignorant post. Please go to wizards forum. There no one is there to answer you.
To the above poster ebay is fine but there are other websites you can sell through and whenever selling something of value over $20 photograph and log it and you won't have any problems then because you can simply prove they were lying. Something like dual lands you should have professionally graded and photographed due to their price.
Those are plateaus. They're worth less than Lotv, Snapcaster Mage or a plethora of other cards, but you want him to get them professionally graded. Ok.
Yes it cost $0 if you buy something from them If not $2-3 for them to get graded. If you have nothing to add to the conversation but your childish sarcasm and ignorant post. Please go to wizards forum. There no one is there to answer you.
Plateaus are currently a TCG-mid of $59. Given the OP sold his on eBay, the chances are good that he got less money than that, but for the sake of argument, let's say the OP managed to get $59 per copy.
Using PSA or BGS for card authentication, the minimum card-grading costs are $17 and $11 respectively. At PSA, that will take 10 business days. At BGS, it will take 45 days. None of this has included the cost of service membership, or the cost of shipping cards to and from PSA or BGS.
Plus, once sold, eBay will take a cut of the sale.
There is no way to look at this situation and think that grading a Plateau is profitable, especially at the expense of the time and energy it would take to make it happen.
You may not like Quacker's point, but it's a valid one. Getting a Plateau professionally graded just isn't worth it.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Yeah, not to mention, the people who actually want to buy graded plateaus is astronomically low, even if they are pristine. And if they're not, what's the point of getting them slabbed? How common is it for people to buy a graded card for its authenticity, just to break the case so they can play with it?
As for the plateaus authenticity, just because someone owns a card shop, or works at a card shop, doesn't mean they know jack about authenticity. I've seen people who've worked at cardshops for 10+ years and still can't tell the difference between revised and unlimited, and that's not even difficult. The best thing to do is to really compare the cards against a known quantity, and whatever you do, don't do the bend test.
eBay has seller protection as well so if he sends you counterfeits back they will compensate our especially if you have pictures like those where you can see the serial number. Also they might just pay for his money and let him keep the cards. eBay flags stuff like this and you both might be okay financially however both your accounts could get suspended or banned I've gone through this before. Things stolen off my porch worth $200 eBay compensated me however my buying privileges were revoked for 6 months due to item value. The only other option for me and for you would be to make a case with the police. Since the item is worth over $200 you would be able too.
To the above poster ebay is fine but there are other websites you can sell through and whenever selling something of value over $20 photograph and log it and you won't have any problems then because you can simply prove they were lying. Something like dual lands you should have professionally graded and photographed due to their price.
Those are plateaus. They're worth less than Lotv, Snapcaster Mage or a plethora of other cards, but you want him to get them professionally graded. Ok.
Yes it cost $0 if you buy something from them If not $2-3 for them to get graded. If you have nothing to add to the conversation but your childish sarcasm and ignorant post. Please go to wizards forum. There no one is there to answer you.
I'm sorry you lost your cool over your own poor wording and general lack of knowledge. Professionally graded means BGS or similar. That means sending it in and spending $$$. Cost vs. benefit, you may know something about that. It does not mean getting the word of your local LGS that they think this is a real magic card. Nice try with the back peddling. I'll forgive your ignorant post. Go in peace, "consultant".
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The answer to the question is : You are boned and you can do nothing about it if he sends you back different cards than what you sent him.
Period end of story.
You can spend all the money in the world to prove the cards sent back are fakes but you have no evidence they weren't the cards you originally sent to him.
Hopefully he sends you back what you originally sent him.
He claims the following:
Obviously I can't verify feel from my photos, but as far as I can tell the corners on my cards seem fine (I've compared photos of many other duals I've sold as well as duals I still have). They don't appear to have an alpha cut.
Also, Beckett grades centering on the front and back independently, which unless I'm misunderstanding implies that they can differ: http://www.reddit.com/r/mtgfinance/comments/24ex0q/help_card_grades/
The buyer claims to have verified this with a local shop's owner and several employees.
I sent the buyer another message saying I will accept the return but intend to inspect the card thoroughly myself and bring it to multiple shops in town for independent verification.
Still, I can't help but feel like I might be getting screwed on this; like if the buyer has his own counterfeits that he's sending back to me or something.
Thoughts? Any smoking guns that you can determine in the picture that would actually confirm that they're counterfeit? Any experience dealing with a similar situation?
Thanks in advance.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
The tests that he is using are pretty vague, but the language is probably set up enough for a claim on eBay to succeed. And even if you ask that he performs more tests, there is no way to prove that he actually did those tests.
It is also possible that he is used to buying fakes and just doesn't know how to recognize real cards.
Currently offering 2 non-foil Kolighan's Command for a Date Stamped foil!
convert bulk into good cards? PucaTrade - https://pucatrade.com/invite/gift/21195
Ebay - decks/Promos/DVDs
Trade thread (constantly updated)
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/337-pokerbob1s-casual-trading-emporium
If the buyer seems like someone who would leave you a negative feedback calling you a scammer or a seller of fakes, then you can always do a little research online looking for articles about legitimate issues with things like corner cuts, or centering, or other such things would occur from old cards from back then. Just tell the buyer that you want to make sure they are as comfortable as possible with any purchase they make from you, so if they still feel like they could be fake, returning them is not an issue.
When you get the cards back (Assuming they are the same ones that you sent), then I would run whatever tests you can to verify their authenticity (light test/dot pattern magnification test for a couple of examples). Though the easiest way to 100% verify is to just send them in to be graded (if they are in really good condition anyway) and that would 100% verify it anyway. I know duals in particular are ones to be wary of, and do as much testing as makes you 100% comfortable selling them.
Picky or worried buyers do pop up every now and then (especially for higher end items), its just the nature of the business where people are aware that there are fakes floating around. Anyhow, good luck.
http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2u0fgd/received_fake_tarmogoyf_today_from_tcgplayer/
To the above poster ebay is fine but there are other websites you can sell through and whenever selling something of value over $20 photograph and log it and you won't have any problems then because you can simply prove they were lying. Something like dual lands you should have professionally graded and photographed due to their price.
Those are plateaus. They're worth less than Lotv, Snapcaster Mage or a plethora of other cards, but you want him to get them professionally graded. Ok.
Thanks for the replies and support everyone, I really appreciate it.
I sent a description of how this is going to go to the buyer and I'm waiting for a reply before officially accepting in case he had any questions or concerns about how I handle this.
I'll update the thread with how this goes so that anyone who faces the same thing in the future has an additional point of reference.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
Yes it cost $0 if you buy something from them If not $2-3 for them to get graded. If you have nothing to add to the conversation but your childish sarcasm and ignorant post. Please go to wizards forum. There no one is there to answer you.
Plateaus are currently a TCG-mid of $59. Given the OP sold his on eBay, the chances are good that he got less money than that, but for the sake of argument, let's say the OP managed to get $59 per copy.
Using PSA or BGS for card authentication, the minimum card-grading costs are $17 and $11 respectively. At PSA, that will take 10 business days. At BGS, it will take 45 days. None of this has included the cost of service membership, or the cost of shipping cards to and from PSA or BGS.
Plus, once sold, eBay will take a cut of the sale.
There is no way to look at this situation and think that grading a Plateau is profitable, especially at the expense of the time and energy it would take to make it happen.
You may not like Quacker's point, but it's a valid one. Getting a Plateau professionally graded just isn't worth it.
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As for the plateaus authenticity, just because someone owns a card shop, or works at a card shop, doesn't mean they know jack about authenticity. I've seen people who've worked at cardshops for 10+ years and still can't tell the difference between revised and unlimited, and that's not even difficult. The best thing to do is to really compare the cards against a known quantity, and whatever you do, don't do the bend test.
I'm sorry you lost your cool over your own poor wording and general lack of knowledge. Professionally graded means BGS or similar. That means sending it in and spending $$$. Cost vs. benefit, you may know something about that. It does not mean getting the word of your local LGS that they think this is a real magic card. Nice try with the back peddling. I'll forgive your ignorant post. Go in peace, "consultant".
Period end of story.
You can spend all the money in the world to prove the cards sent back are fakes but you have no evidence they weren't the cards you originally sent to him.
Hopefully he sends you back what you originally sent him.