ANYWHO, back on topic. Since Dack won't be Modern or Standard legal, I think his pricing has a ceiling that is nowhere near Liliana of the Veil's. I'm thinking $20-$25 range shortly after release, with prices falling to around $15 as more people draft the set.
JtMS is legal only in Vintage/Legacy and look at his price tag, even with multiple printings. So there is precedent.
Granted, Dack isn't nearly as strong as JtMS is and anybody who thinks so needs to get their reality checked. He is, however, being printed in a supplemental. It's an unlimited print run, but if Conspiracy doesn't have a massive popularity then there cold be fairly small numbers of copies of him. His price will largely be determined by how popular Conspiracy ends up being, really. If it's massively popular, then yes the $20-30 range isn't unreasonable. If it's not a heavily opened set, he very well could see an inflated price well beyond that. Pricing is only partly based on how strong a card is; the other part is scarcity.
He's not as strong as Lili or Jace for certain, but they were also printed in standard legal sets in their first run. Conspiracy being a supplemental means it will be a bit more of a crap-shoot as to where Dack will end up. If it ends being extremely popular, then he will likely fall to the range you suggested. If it's not, then I fully expect his price to be quite higher.
This is incorrect, as I've explained before. If Conspiracy cards were purple-border, they would be by default Legacy and Vintage legal. Border color is only relevant for TOURNAMENT legality, not FORMAT legality.
I finally see where your misconception lies.
There is no misconception on my part, though there is one or more on your part.
In order to be format-legal, a card must first be tournament-authorized. A purple-bordered card could not be Legacy legal because it could not an authorized card for tournament play.
This is, of course, laughably incorrect, because it would mean no card is legal in Commander format, since Commander is not a sanctioned (tournament-authorized) format.
Border color is one of those criteria, which is why people mention it. Those criteria, should you be interested in actually reading them, can be found in section 3.3 of the Magic Tournament Rules.
I read them before you ever did. Again, the fact it's black border tells you nothing about whether it's legal in Legacy or Vintage. It's functionally identical to the statement, "Dack Fayden is black border, so it's legal in Modern" if by legal you only mean tournament rules. And that would be incorrect.
Beyond that, if you'd like to continue arguing with me about how I don't know what makes something legal, I'd invite you to pass the L3 exam first
Beyond that, if you're like to continue arguing with me about how I don't know what makes something legal, I'd invite you to pass the L5 exam first. I don't think it's required, but it seems you haven't learned enough yet at any rate. (It's also pretty darn offensive that you try to "pull rank" in order to dismiss an argument.)
The bickering needs to stop. This thread is about Dack Fayden, not the finer points of what makes a card legal. These arguments have gotten quite petty and serve very little purpose to this topic. I would have shut this down earlier, but I have been out of commission for a couple days. Further off-topic or petty bickering posts will result in infractions -Uldan
Fifty bucks seems way, way, to high, and buying from someone in Eastern Europe seems like a pretty bad idea. I think US eBayers are slow because they're not sure what to price the card at.
For me, I can see this card eventually - EVENTUALLY - reaching the $50.00 price tag, but not in the short term, and certainly not while it's in print. Dack Fayden is a great planeswalker, but let's be realistic here. He is to Vintage what Liliana is to Legacy. Probably a format staple that does many good things and allows you to compress the space in your deck by using cards that can play multiple roles. His abilities are more relevant in a format where you are almost assured to be able to steal artifact mana if nothing else. In that format, he might as well read: "Each turn, either loot or ramp. Your call, I get bigger either way."
However, I don't think he's really all that good in Legacy. You get the odd Aether Vial or equipment, but stealing the equipment doesn't de-equip it, so you still have to pay mana and have a dork to get rid of the opponent's affect. He's great against Legacy Shops but bad against Affinity since he'll get ramrodded once he lands. And, as people have said, he's not legal in Modern or Standard.
All that means that he is probably as good as Lily in a format that has lower demand because fewer people play it. On the flip side, those who DO play it have more disposable income.
Of course, if the Powers That Be decide to jack up the price to $100.00 and then charge us $5.00 for each pack of conspiracy to thwart us from buying him in packs affordably, then I guess it sucks to be a player in the modern age of Magic finance. But, demand alone? I can't see more than $50.00.
As of right now, I find a single person (from the Czech Republic) selling Dack on eBay. $49 a pop and 10 have been sold already.
Conspiracy is pre-selling on MKM but Dack has not been put up yet for some reason (Magister of Worth and Cogwork Librarian are being sold).
Please report them on eBay. Select Listing Practices -> Inappropriate Seller Terms -> Presale. eBay does not allow presales over 30 days out. Report any Conspiracy or Modern Event Deck listings.
ANYWHO, back on topic. Since Dack won't be Modern or Standard legal, I think his pricing has a ceiling that is nowhere near Liliana of the Veil's. I'm thinking $20-$25 range shortly after release, with prices falling to around $15 as more people draft the set.
JtMS is legal only in Vintage/Legacy and look at his price tag, even with multiple printings. So there is precedent.
Granted, Dack isn't nearly as strong as JtMS is and anybody who thinks so needs to get their reality checked. He is, however, being printed in a supplemental. It's an unlimited print run, but if Conspiracy doesn't have a massive popularity then there cold be fairly small numbers of copies of him. His price will largely be determined by how popular Conspiracy ends up being, really. If it's massively popular, then yes the $20-30 range isn't unreasonable. If it's not a heavily opened set, he very well could see an inflated price well beyond that. Pricing is only partly based on how strong a card is; the other part is scarcity.
He's not as strong as Lili or Jace for certain, but they were also printed in standard legal sets in their first run. Conspiracy being a supplemental means it will be a bit more of a crap-shoot as to where Dack will end up. If it ends being extremely popular, then he will likely fall to the range you suggested. If it's not, then I fully expect his price to be quite higher.
Jace, TmS only had one extra printing and is legal in 2 other big formats: Cube and EDH. We can't really predict where Dack is going to fall. He is a good planeswalker, but I don't believe there is an existing deck that needs Dack in multiples. I think the real comparison is Tezz 2.
JTMS is iconic and is the face of magic. Dack Fayden isn't. The price of dack will be around $15 of course all this is pure speculation as we don't know how much conspiracy is going to be printed and that is a big factor. Another big factor is playability and dack isn't that playable in legacy. Dack is legal in cube and EDH as both are casual formats/nonsanctioned and you can do whatever you want in unsanctioned formats if your playgroup is fine with it and I assume they aren't going to tell you you can't put Dack in your EDH deck or cube and if they do....there is something wrong with them I'd say.
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ANYWHO, back on topic. Since Dack won't be Modern or Standard legal, I think his pricing has a ceiling that is nowhere near Liliana of the Veil's. I'm thinking $20-$25 range shortly after release, with prices falling to around $15 as more people draft the set.
JtMS is legal only in Vintage/Legacy and look at his price tag, even with multiple printings. So there is precedent.
Granted, Dack isn't nearly as strong as JtMS is and anybody who thinks so needs to get their reality checked. He is, however, being printed in a supplemental. It's an unlimited print run, but if Conspiracy doesn't have a massive popularity then there cold be fairly small numbers of copies of him. His price will largely be determined by how popular Conspiracy ends up being, really. If it's massively popular, then yes the $20-30 range isn't unreasonable. If it's not a heavily opened set, he very well could see an inflated price well beyond that. Pricing is only partly based on how strong a card is; the other part is scarcity.
He's not as strong as Lili or Jace for certain, but they were also printed in standard legal sets in their first run. Conspiracy being a supplemental means it will be a bit more of a crap-shoot as to where Dack will end up. If it ends being extremely popular, then he will likely fall to the range you suggested. If it's not, then I fully expect his price to be quite higher.
Jace, TmS only had one extra printing and is legal in 2 other big formats: Cube and EDH. We can't really predict where Dack is going to fall. He is a good planeswalker, but I don't believe there is an existing deck that needs Dack in multiples. I think the real comparison is Tezz 2.
You are forgetting From the Vault 20. Granted the price on original printings dented(One could even say plummeted) significantly after release, but the point remains; there is precedent for Planeswalkers only legal in Legacy(And EDH/Cube) to be worth a significant amount.
I also don't think the Tezz comparison is entirely accurate. Tezz is viable only a handful of very specific archetypes. Dack not so much; he is playable in almost any deck running U/R, which is pretty popular right now in Legacy play. His +1 is useful, and his -2 can be crippling in the right matches. He's certainly not something you would play against Elves or the ilk, but against Stoneblade of any sort or any deck running Jitte, Swords, or Batterskull. He's particularly brutal against Imperial Painter I imagine as well, as you rip their pieces to shreds. The ult is worthless for Legacy concerns. Note I don't think he'll become as ubiquitous with the format as JtMS or Lily are.
All that said, I think his strength alone will justify a very decent price tag in the 20ish or so area. It'll be his scarcity that drives the rest of the price. I don't doubt he'll see some play in Legacy, and if Conspiracy isn't fairly popular there just won't be many out there. This will drive the price beyond what you would normally see in a regular set printing of him.
With this in mind, I can see him climbing up to current Lily levels if Conspiracy doesn't get a ton of play simply because there won't be many opened. Price are first affected by strength of the card. They are then affected a great deal by both the demand and the available supply. If the supply isn't enough to meet the demand, which is possible, his prices will rise accordingly. How high that goes depends on how popular he becomes in Legacy (And EDH/casual formats), and how well-received Conspiracy is.
ANYWHO, back on topic. Since Dack won't be Modern or Standard legal, I think his pricing has a ceiling that is nowhere near Liliana of the Veil's. I'm thinking $20-$25 range shortly after release, with prices falling to around $15 as more people draft the set.
JtMS is legal only in Vintage/Legacy and look at his price tag, even with multiple printings. So there is precedent.
Granted, Dack isn't nearly as strong as JtMS is and anybody who thinks so needs to get their reality checked. He is, however, being printed in a supplemental. It's an unlimited print run, but if Conspiracy doesn't have a massive popularity then there cold be fairly small numbers of copies of him. His price will largely be determined by how popular Conspiracy ends up being, really. If it's massively popular, then yes the $20-30 range isn't unreasonable. If it's not a heavily opened set, he very well could see an inflated price well beyond that. Pricing is only partly based on how strong a card is; the other part is scarcity.
He's not as strong as Lili or Jace for certain, but they were also printed in standard legal sets in their first run. Conspiracy being a supplemental means it will be a bit more of a crap-shoot as to where Dack will end up. If it ends being extremely popular, then he will likely fall to the range you suggested. If it's not, then I fully expect his price to be quite higher.
Jace, TmS only had one extra printing and is legal in 2 other big formats: Cube and EDH. We can't really predict where Dack is going to fall. He is a good planeswalker, but I don't believe there is an existing deck that needs Dack in multiples. I think the real comparison is Tezz 2.
You are forgetting From the Vault 20. Granted the price on original printings dented(One could even say plummeted) significantly after release, but the point remains; there is precedent for Planeswalkers only legal in Legacy(And EDH/Cube) to be worth a significant amount.
I also don't think the Tezz comparison is entirely accurate. Tezz is viable only a handful of very specific archetypes. Dack not so much; he is playable in almost any deck running U/R, which is pretty popular right now in Legacy play. His +1 is useful, and his -2 can be crippling in the right matches. He's certainly not something you would play against Elves or the ilk, but against Stoneblade of any sort or any deck running Jitte, Swords, or Batterskull. He's particularly brutal against Imperial Painter I imagine as well, as you rip their pieces to shreds. The ult is worthless for Legacy concerns. Note I don't think he'll become as ubiquitous with the format as JtMS or Lily are.
All that said, I think his strength alone will justify a very decent price tag in the 20ish or so area. It'll be his scarcity that drives the rest of the price. I don't doubt he'll see some play in Legacy, and if Conspiracy isn't fairly popular there just won't be many out there. This will drive the price beyond what you would normally see in a regular set printing of him.
With this in mind, I can see him climbing up to current Lily levels if Conspiracy doesn't get a ton of play simply because there won't be many opened. Price are first affected by strength of the card. They are then affected a great deal by both the demand and the available supply. If the supply isn't enough to meet the demand, which is possible, his prices will rise accordingly. How high that goes depends on how popular he becomes in Legacy (And EDH/casual formats), and how well-received Conspiracy is.
I'm not forgetting Jace's FtV printing because that is the other printing I'm talking about: Worldwake and FtV:20. Unless I am missing something, that's just 2 printings and FtV barely does squat about supply. Jace's dip was a combination of TNN and people no longer scrambling to pick up Jace.
I am definitely willing to eat my words if Dack becomes popular in Legacy. The only deck I see him in? URx Delver decks. I still stand by his comparison to Tezz 2. Here's why: small printing/short draft, does pretty powerful things, and only works in a particular deck. Conspiracy will only be drafted for what? 3-4 months?
I'm not a huge connoisseur of the legacy format, but I'm familiar with it and I don't think dack will have a huge impact. I see him as being more like garruk wildspeaker, who is a solid cube and edh walker, but not great elsewhere. I think dack will be around 30-40 preorder, then dip down as all cards do, probably to the 10-20 amount, then steadily rise over the next few years as all out of print edh cards do. Of course this is all on the assumption that he sees only fringe play in older formats, and not a mainstay of a tier 1 deck.
Since the print run for Conspiracy appears to be unlimited, I stand by my earlier assessment. Dack could easily command $50.00 in the long term, just like Liliana, but look for him to drop in the short term. He's just not that useful for popular formats and the larger EDH / cube / casual market won't have to hunt him down as singles while you can buy packs of Conspiracy.
Since the print run for Conspiracy appears to be unlimited, I stand by my earlier assessment. Dack could easily command $50.00 in the long term, just like Liliana, but look for him to drop in the short term. He's just not that useful for popular formats and the larger EDH / cube / casual market won't have to hunt him down as singles while you can buy packs of Conspiracy.
It all depends on the popularity of Conspiracy. If it's unpopular as a format, and he finds a home in Legacy, the price may be inflated just so that singles dealers can recoup the loss on opening a ton of Conspiracy just to have enough in stock to meet demand. The fact that it is an unlimited print run doesn't really mean a great deal. If it gets drafted relatively lightly then there simply won't be many out there. Which is a strong possibility, as it will be competing with standard drafts, and the cards are generally only legal for Legacy play with a few exceptions, cutting out a good deal of people who just won't want to spend money on it.
If the reception of Conspiracy is lukewarm, his price will reflect that. Doubly so if he ends up being strong in Legacy. And I will stand by this assertion. If he was released in Standard, I would say he'd be a 15$ planeswalker, if not worse(He would depend on what is going on in the format), until after the set is out of print. But considering that Conspiracy has a very limited consumer base within the community, I'm not certain where he'll land. Supply will likely be short, and demand is difficult to figure out.
Cards have been out all of two days, and Dack is already below $30 on TCGplayer.com and presumably headed lower. So yeah, looks like the hype was just the usual JTMS planeswalker pre-order tax.
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Modern: 1WUR(B/P) Affinity
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Multiplayer: 1U Grand Post
EDH: 1R Daretti
I think Dack might have better long-term value than short.
The card just came out, as expected the price dipped, but if he does end up seeing play in Eternal formats then he's bound to creep back up as time goes.
The set looks like a smash hit so I do expect that supply will be decent and steady for the short-term
Cards have been out all of two days, and Dack is already below $30 on TCGplayer.com and presumably headed lower. So yeah, looks like the hype was just the usual JTMS planeswalker pre-order tax.
Although somewhat true, I would like to point out that it is a bit of an odd duck in the PW territory. First, it's not standard legal, meaning that demand is much lower than normal. Second, Conspiracy was just released. We haven't had any chance to see what he can do in Legacy (Or not do for that matter). His price drop may just be a reflection of over-anticipating early demand for a card that has no testing. Couple this with Legacy being an environment that evolves at a near glacial pace compared to other formats, for various reasons, and it'd be weeks before he would pick up steam even if he is worthy.
My thoughts: Watch the next few weeks of Legacy Opens, and see if Dack pops up. If he pops up more than a couple times, it will be interesting. If it's just an oddball inclusion that does nothing useful, move along.
I have been watching lots of streams about Magic and looking through out this forum and another large Legacy forum and I'm not hearing a lick about Dack in decks. No testing, no brewing, nothing. Take that as you will.
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JtMS is legal only in Vintage/Legacy and look at his price tag, even with multiple printings. So there is precedent.
Granted, Dack isn't nearly as strong as JtMS is and anybody who thinks so needs to get their reality checked. He is, however, being printed in a supplemental. It's an unlimited print run, but if Conspiracy doesn't have a massive popularity then there cold be fairly small numbers of copies of him. His price will largely be determined by how popular Conspiracy ends up being, really. If it's massively popular, then yes the $20-30 range isn't unreasonable. If it's not a heavily opened set, he very well could see an inflated price well beyond that. Pricing is only partly based on how strong a card is; the other part is scarcity.
He's not as strong as Lili or Jace for certain, but they were also printed in standard legal sets in their first run. Conspiracy being a supplemental means it will be a bit more of a crap-shoot as to where Dack will end up. If it ends being extremely popular, then he will likely fall to the range you suggested. If it's not, then I fully expect his price to be quite higher.
There is no misconception on my part, though there is one or more on your part.
This is, of course, laughably incorrect, because it would mean no card is legal in Commander format, since Commander is not a sanctioned (tournament-authorized) format.
Essentially yes, which is why silver-bordered cards are legal in Legacy/Vintage but not in their sanctioned play.
Correct. And "black bordered" has no bearing here.
Incorrect. Asking whether a card is tournament legal is a completely different question.
Incorrect. Shahrazad is a tournament-legal card by the black border but it is not legal in Legacy/Vintage.
I read them before you ever did. Again, the fact it's black border tells you nothing about whether it's legal in Legacy or Vintage. It's functionally identical to the statement, "Dack Fayden is black border, so it's legal in Modern" if by legal you only mean tournament rules. And that would be incorrect.
Beyond that, if you're like to continue arguing with me about how I don't know what makes something legal, I'd invite you to pass the L5 exam first. I don't think it's required, but it seems you haven't learned enough yet at any rate. (It's also pretty darn offensive that you try to "pull rank" in order to dismiss an argument.)
All your Ice Age Foil Basics are belong to us
If you have any foil 7ED Island #334 I am very interested!
For me, I can see this card eventually - EVENTUALLY - reaching the $50.00 price tag, but not in the short term, and certainly not while it's in print. Dack Fayden is a great planeswalker, but let's be realistic here. He is to Vintage what Liliana is to Legacy. Probably a format staple that does many good things and allows you to compress the space in your deck by using cards that can play multiple roles. His abilities are more relevant in a format where you are almost assured to be able to steal artifact mana if nothing else. In that format, he might as well read: "Each turn, either loot or ramp. Your call, I get bigger either way."
However, I don't think he's really all that good in Legacy. You get the odd Aether Vial or equipment, but stealing the equipment doesn't de-equip it, so you still have to pay mana and have a dork to get rid of the opponent's affect. He's great against Legacy Shops but bad against Affinity since he'll get ramrodded once he lands. And, as people have said, he's not legal in Modern or Standard.
All that means that he is probably as good as Lily in a format that has lower demand because fewer people play it. On the flip side, those who DO play it have more disposable income.
Of course, if the Powers That Be decide to jack up the price to $100.00 and then charge us $5.00 for each pack of conspiracy to thwart us from buying him in packs affordably, then I guess it sucks to be a player in the modern age of Magic finance. But, demand alone? I can't see more than $50.00.
Please report them on eBay. Select Listing Practices -> Inappropriate Seller Terms -> Presale. eBay does not allow presales over 30 days out. Report any Conspiracy or Modern Event Deck listings.
Jace, TmS only had one extra printing and is legal in 2 other big formats: Cube and EDH. We can't really predict where Dack is going to fall. He is a good planeswalker, but I don't believe there is an existing deck that needs Dack in multiples. I think the real comparison is Tezz 2.
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You are forgetting From the Vault 20. Granted the price on original printings dented(One could even say plummeted) significantly after release, but the point remains; there is precedent for Planeswalkers only legal in Legacy(And EDH/Cube) to be worth a significant amount.
I also don't think the Tezz comparison is entirely accurate. Tezz is viable only a handful of very specific archetypes. Dack not so much; he is playable in almost any deck running U/R, which is pretty popular right now in Legacy play. His +1 is useful, and his -2 can be crippling in the right matches. He's certainly not something you would play against Elves or the ilk, but against Stoneblade of any sort or any deck running Jitte, Swords, or Batterskull. He's particularly brutal against Imperial Painter I imagine as well, as you rip their pieces to shreds. The ult is worthless for Legacy concerns. Note I don't think he'll become as ubiquitous with the format as JtMS or Lily are.
All that said, I think his strength alone will justify a very decent price tag in the 20ish or so area. It'll be his scarcity that drives the rest of the price. I don't doubt he'll see some play in Legacy, and if Conspiracy isn't fairly popular there just won't be many out there. This will drive the price beyond what you would normally see in a regular set printing of him.
With this in mind, I can see him climbing up to current Lily levels if Conspiracy doesn't get a ton of play simply because there won't be many opened. Price are first affected by strength of the card. They are then affected a great deal by both the demand and the available supply. If the supply isn't enough to meet the demand, which is possible, his prices will rise accordingly. How high that goes depends on how popular he becomes in Legacy (And EDH/casual formats), and how well-received Conspiracy is.
I'm not forgetting Jace's FtV printing because that is the other printing I'm talking about: Worldwake and FtV:20. Unless I am missing something, that's just 2 printings and FtV barely does squat about supply. Jace's dip was a combination of TNN and people no longer scrambling to pick up Jace.
I am definitely willing to eat my words if Dack becomes popular in Legacy. The only deck I see him in? URx Delver decks. I still stand by his comparison to Tezz 2. Here's why: small printing/short draft, does pretty powerful things, and only works in a particular deck. Conspiracy will only be drafted for what? 3-4 months?
And Jace might be the face of MTG, but Dack (IMO) just seems 100 times more appealing story/character wise. Jace is a has been....
EDH:
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The Rack
Modern
Venser, the Sojourner Control
It all depends on the popularity of Conspiracy. If it's unpopular as a format, and he finds a home in Legacy, the price may be inflated just so that singles dealers can recoup the loss on opening a ton of Conspiracy just to have enough in stock to meet demand. The fact that it is an unlimited print run doesn't really mean a great deal. If it gets drafted relatively lightly then there simply won't be many out there. Which is a strong possibility, as it will be competing with standard drafts, and the cards are generally only legal for Legacy play with a few exceptions, cutting out a good deal of people who just won't want to spend money on it.
If the reception of Conspiracy is lukewarm, his price will reflect that. Doubly so if he ends up being strong in Legacy. And I will stand by this assertion. If he was released in Standard, I would say he'd be a 15$ planeswalker, if not worse(He would depend on what is going on in the format), until after the set is out of print. But considering that Conspiracy has a very limited consumer base within the community, I'm not certain where he'll land. Supply will likely be short, and demand is difficult to figure out.
Dack can't do either. Not every deck plays artifacts as well.
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Perhaps just the new card thing.
Cards have been out all of two days, and Dack is already below $30 on TCGplayer.com and presumably headed lower. So yeah, looks like the hype was just the usual JTMS planeswalker pre-order tax.
Modern: 1WUR(B/P) Affinity
Legacy: R Burn, W Ascension
Multiplayer: 1U Grand Post
EDH: 1R Daretti
The card just came out, as expected the price dipped, but if he does end up seeing play in Eternal formats then he's bound to creep back up as time goes.
The set looks like a smash hit so I do expect that supply will be decent and steady for the short-term
Although somewhat true, I would like to point out that it is a bit of an odd duck in the PW territory. First, it's not standard legal, meaning that demand is much lower than normal. Second, Conspiracy was just released. We haven't had any chance to see what he can do in Legacy (Or not do for that matter). His price drop may just be a reflection of over-anticipating early demand for a card that has no testing. Couple this with Legacy being an environment that evolves at a near glacial pace compared to other formats, for various reasons, and it'd be weeks before he would pick up steam even if he is worthy.
My thoughts: Watch the next few weeks of Legacy Opens, and see if Dack pops up. If he pops up more than a couple times, it will be interesting. If it's just an oddball inclusion that does nothing useful, move along.