It's an automatic include in most Legacy decks as a 1-of, so that means it can't really go under $20 as a mythic. But I see what you're saying - why is it $40? I don't have the answer. Part of it may just be hype. It could settle down to $30 over the next couple weeks. Stay tuned.
I dont see a use for it in most legacy decks to be honest. The metalcraft requirement for it is a huge drawback particularly for a format with a very limited number of artifacts that see play outside of ANT decks (the swords cycle, sensei's divining top, and umezawa's jitte). I see it as a 1-2 of in ANT but in few other decks because of legendary and metalcraft. Mox Opal is the card I see most likely to drop in price among the mythics followed maybe by venser.
I am a bit surprised putrefax isn't anywhere on R_E's list and near the bottom of Jeff's. It is a pretty solid poison creature and can come out early in a green deck. I cant expect it to get too high because it's in a precon but I was expecting it to get a little love
Livewire lash may get a bit of play with infect as well. Not so much as a strategy in and of itself but rather to speed up the clock on a poison creature. Put it on skithiryx (my candidate for new most misspelled card in the history of magic) and he becomes a 2 turn clock that can add poison counters at instant speed. The instant speed poison counters is the best sell for this card
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Etched Champion does avoid All is Dust, but for 3 less mana it does die to Day of Judgement. I dont see him becoming any more prominent than Sphinx of Jwar Isle, and his ability is limited to a deck running lots of artifacts.
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"It's like some kind of Voltron... made of elephants??"
What doesn't die to DoJ? Glint Hawk Idol? 4/4 hasty mountains you can create with Koth? You can literally say every creature ever printed in Magic dies to Wrath. Period. That doesn't make it a bad card, and doesn't dilute the point made by Cam I Am. An Etched gets out and starts doing its thing, period. You don't draw or don't have DoJ, it's going to be a long day. Pointing out things that die to other things is ridiculous.
The Sphinx pretty much relegated to heavy blue because of the UU cost of bringing him into play. The Etched can play in any deck that wants him. Etched isn't just good in heavy artifact decks because equipment just got a lot better with this set and even having the chance of having him out plus equipment is better then not having it at all. A four of in every deck? Of course not. Something viable to think about? Certainly.
Mox Opal, auto-include in vintage decks. You might as well, since you have all those artifacts running around, making Karn playable.
In any case, in some ways I'm glad that this set is so mythic heavy, since a LOT of the rares in the set have me salivating. Funky thing is that mythics still are salivating stuff, just that this time there are enough rares for me to chew on as well. I'm glad to see rachet bomb in rare, as them putting it in mythic would literally be like rubbing salt in everybody's wounds.
I'm quite surprised that cards like Tunnel Ignus or Leonin Arbiter are not in the top20.. Why are they so low?
Because they're rare?
No, but seriously: because they're rare. Also, because they're sideboard cards, or cards you have to build a deck around, or both. Cards like that, while strong here and there, aren't strong everywhere, which is what it takes to get a rare into the top 20 now. Ratchet Bomb is maindeckable, goes into many more decks than the red and white cards you mentioned, doesn't require you to build your deck around it, and so on.
There's exactly two decks that would even play the card and those two decks might be puushed to tier 1.5 because of it.
Mox Opal could be an auto include in vintage as a 1-off. The price right now is just speculation for T2, its application in eternal formats is extremely limited.
Yeah, sorry, I meant Vintage, not Legacy. Legacy might have applications for it but Vintage is clearly where it's auto-included.
Appreciate the support Hammer, but I'm not looking to be thanked. It's just a thread, I do it because I like doing it, not for recognition. When I stepped down from the staff here I started contributing via this thread, since card pricing is kinda what I do, and I felt like people might be interested. Thanks are welcomed but not required, and if people want to debate points I'm ready and willing. The random personal attacks, and claims that I whine too much, fall on deaf ears however.
there are a few good uncommons and commons in there, but for the most part they are pretty much just limited filler.
Yeah agreed. There are a couple bones thrown in for constructed, but they are the exception. Everything else is either unplayable everywhere, or limited chaff.
I haven't heard the words "Power Creep" and SoM togeather very much which in my book is a win.
Excellent point, actually. You snuck that in at the end of your post, but it was worth an entire post for itself. You're quite right - power creep, at least in creature form, seems to be mostly on hold. There are a bunch of 8/8s for 8 and 7/7s for 7 and 6/6s for 6 with really good abilities that outclass anything that came before it, but otherwise creep seems to have been put on the shelf for SOM.
Wait a second, don't you have that backwards? Johnny cards are cards that work best in combos and in decks specifically designed for them, right? While spike cards are just super efficient cards that tend to go well in any deck they can be cast in? Ignus and Arbiter are both cards you need to build around and combo off of.
Speculators at this point know that they can set any ridiculous price tag in hyped Mythics and get great business so they won't stop doing.
You really don't understand. First off, a speculator is a buyer, not a seller. Secondly but more importantly, SELLERS DO NOT SET THE PRICES - BUYERS DO! Please get that. The only way sellers would dictate the prices if they ALL (every single seller of Magic cards in the world) conspired together to artificially set prices high and never drop them. Unless that happens, and it never will, you'll never be correct in your thinking that sellers set prices and buyers just have to pay them. We have a mostly free market (I say mostly because there is some manipulation going on), which means supply and demand are the rule of the day when it comes to Magic singles prices. Feel free to debate me on this, but do some reading on economics first. I don't say that to be mean; I'm trying to help you understand.
I'm paying $110, and I don't charge anything to help cover my overhead costs, so it looks like this is going to be a non-profit venture. If I manage break even. And if the value of the set doesn't go down, which is something that has never happened.
Im a bit dissapointed that 75% of the set's value is in the mythics.
How very political of you! This is an incredibly toned down version of your opinion that you expressed yesterday in the M11 thread. Probably a wise move though.
@R_E: I don't see Mox Opal being widely played in Legacy. Most decks don't really pack enough artifacts imho. Merfolk/Goblins have Vial/Jitte, the Counterbalance decks run Top and maybe Jitte in the SB and Lands has Mox Diamond. Anything else i missed?
You're right. Typo/brainfart, sorry. I meant Vintage.
Do you think we could give this thread the "Orb thread" treatment and have one thread for price analysis (possibly even stickied as long as it is the newest set) and an entirely separate thread for discussion? I think it would be incredibly helpful in being able to see trends in prices, etc.
I don't want it stickied, no. Sticky threads get noticed LESS than non-stickied threads, believe it or not. Besides, this thread is always near the top of the forum, so there's no trouble finding it.
As for splitting into multiple threads, I'm open to suggestions on how to execute that, but don't particularly see the need. I make sure to mark which post is the most recently updated, and you're free to go and look at the past updates. I also mark trends in price moves with direction arrows, position numbers, and change-in-position indicators.
Interesting. Do you think the others will drop like stones, or do you think Venser is going to go up? It really doesn't feel very valuable to me, so for it to take first spot I think the other top 3 cards are going to have to lose half their value.
It's pretty sick. used to get you Phyrexian Hulk, and that was a good deal. Now it gets not only +1/+2, but lifelink (HUGE), deathtouch (added value), and when it dies you get 2 creatures to replace it, each worth at least if you were to cast them from your hand. Very overpowered. (I won't mention that there's nothing mythic about it except the power level..... woops too late!)
Grand Architect will go up because there's just enough playable artifact.
What are its uses? From what I can see, the only decks that can use it must be monoblue, creature based, and filled with artifacts. If the deck isn't all three of those, Architect is very sub par. How many creature-based mono blue artifact decks do you expect?
I doubt it. Even if you accel it out turn 3, and have an active Voltaic Key going, you can still only do something with it starting turn 5, and then every second or third turn after that. I don't think it's worth the mana investment nor the time. Your opponent can Shatter it just before you manage to kill something with it, and then you've wasted multiple turns and a lot of mana.
Sunblast Angel will go WAY up. Potential one-sided wrath on a decent flying body? I'm surprised it hasn't ranked higher to begin with.
I'm keeping my eye on it. Currently you can get a playset for $10 on eBay, but we'll watch it over the next week and see what happens. I see it as a 2-of in defensive white decks. It's not very aggro, dies to almost everything, and you don't want to draw multiples generally, so it won't go in every deck like BSA.
Venser's Journal ; I can't help but think this is the card that will make creatureless control decks jump in power.
I don't think it makes or breaks control decks. If a very slow control deck manages to reach tier 1, then maybe it'll play with Journal. But Journal won't make that deck happen in the first place.
Nim Deathmantle ; This is my most-wanted card right now. The possibilities are endless.
I'm not seeing any possibilities, let alone endless ones. All it does that can't be done better elsewhere is ":4mana: : Regenerate target creature you control."
Steel Hellkite is flipping insane, and at $1/ea? YOINK much.
I know, right? Shivan on steroids and no more need for red mana. I'm surprised they didn't just make it 6/6 and mythic Really good card. I'll be keeping a playset of that one for myself.
Mox Opal is amazing. This is a card that will only get stronger as more artifacts come out.
Sure, I see what you're saying. But that's similar to saying Primordial Sage will get stronger as more creatures come out. While true, the effect is negligible. I DO think Mox Opal is good though. It'll be interesting to see where the price goes.
Quote from Cam I Am »
Etched Champion is a sleeper. Buy your play set now, while they're practically free.
I'm starting to think you're just joking around. Mox Opal is going to go up? Leonin Arbiter is the best rare in the set? Etched Champion? You realize that "protection from all colors" isn't all that strong, right? I'd rather play Knight of Dawn, and that's not a good card, but at least it has first strike, doesn't require I build my deck around it, and has a strong creature type.
Let's keep the discussion civil. It's just a card game, after all; it's not like we're dicussing the stock market crash.
I think people get excited about things they're interested in. True, nobody here is into the stock market crash or the collapsing economy (though they will be soon). If you had stock brokers talking about Magic cards, they probably wouldn't get excited or "salty". But these are Magic players, dealers, and collectors. They do get excited about Magic cards.
Myr Galvanizer would have been a money rare had it been a rare.
Doubt it - it's pretty terrible. +1/+1 to all Myr? Big deal. I really don't see Myr decks being big like Elves, Goblins, Vampires etc, so I don't think a "Myr lord" card is going to see play.
I am a bit surprised putrefax isn't anywhere on R_E's list
It should be on the bottom end of the list, and will be when I update (soon). It's success will depend 99% on how Infect does. It's not a good creature in any way except for the poison counters it generates. Other than that, there are better options for everything it does.
Mox Opal, auto-include in vintage decks. You might as well, since you have all those artifacts running around, making Karn playable.
There's plenty of Vintage decks that won't run Opal. Oath of Druids decks won't because making Metalcraft is hard for that deck and not worth the trouble since Null Rod is widely played. MUD decks likely won't since they don't need the colored mana. Obviously Dredge has no need. Most in not all Fish decks won't either. Other rougue-ish strategies like Elves, Goblins, R/G Beatz, Worldgorger Dragon Combo, Gro, and Dark Times will all likely pass it up. Five color Stax (a seldom played archetype) and Time Vault decks are probably the only ones that will bother with this thing- and probably just as a singleton.
EDIT: Forgot to mention TPS decks will play it and maybe ANT decks (Vintage Version) will try it out.
The Mox Opal is really strong in the right deck. It isn't negative card advantage as is Chrome Mox. It will be the most expensive card in the set when all is said and done. Probably will see play in only 1 deck though in standard.
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"I have seen the true path. I will not warm myself by the fire—I will become the flame."
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
Eched Champion? You realize that "protection from all colors" isn't all that strong, right? I'd rather play Knight of Dawn, and that's not a good card, but at least it has first strike, doesn't require I build my deck around it, and has a strong creature type.
Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when? Pro all colors means champion is unblockable, or can chump all day long. Attach some equipment and it's a machine. The common played cards it dies to are Journey to Nowhere and DoJ. Etched champion is bonkers, especially when it goes into legacy affinity and gets a Cranial Plating.
Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when? Pro all colors means champion is unblockable, or can chump all day long. Attach some equipment and it's a machine. The common played cards it dies to are Journey to Nowhere and DoJ. Etched champion is bonkers, especially when it goes into legacy affinity and gets a Cranial Plating.
Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when? Pro all colors means champion is unblockable, or can chump all day long. Attach some equipment and it's a machine. The common played cards it dies to are Journey to Nowhere and DoJ. Etched champion is bonkers, especially when it goes into legacy affinity and gets a Cranial Plating.
It's also a 2/2 for 3. If it were competitively costed, Pro: All Colors would be a very solid effect. It's not; you're paying around two mana for your sometimes-on protection. In Legacy, maybe - I don't know that format very well. In Standard, it's quite poor. DoJ still catches it fine, and a Grey Ogre isn't enough to force a DoJ, so they aren't even under pressure the way they are from, say, Malakir Bloodwitch. Plus, Ratchet Bomb catches it straight up (often with value, even), and it can't exactly brawl with Wurmcoil Engine.
It also doesn't die to Journey, FYI. Journey can't target it. (Emrakul is different.)
I expect a infect deck will be a budget deck for awile, as the most expensive card for the deck is $10 that you will not want more then two of and only works in one type of deck, the rest of the cards that go with it is a intro deck.
The one way I can see abusing mimic vat (and I use the term abuse loosely here) is roughly the same way people would abuse kiki-jiki, mirror breaker. The best target I can see for it at the moment would be wurmcoil engine. Outside of standard it would have the same favorite targets that kiki jiki would love (kokusho, duplicant, sundering titan etc) also outside of standard march of the machines + mindslaver for a lock but prototype portal is way better for that in this set and is standard legal. Speaking of I wouldnt be too surprised to see people at least try to make a slaverlock deck out of that
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From MaRo
Every rarity gets good cards. That means that some mythic rares will be tournament quality as will some commons, some uncommons and some rares. My promise wasn't that mythic rares wouldn't get good cards but that we wouldn't limit the good cards to only being mythic rare.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
An Etched gets out and starts doing its thing, period. You don't draw or don't have DoJ, it's going to be a long day.
Yes, it is quite literally going to be a long day, because that etched will take 10 turns to kill someone.
The Etched can play in any deck that wants him.
Um yeah, but the only decks that are going to want him are metalcraft decks. And to be honest I'm a lot more excited about 4-damage bolts or UU counterspells and 8/8 tramplers for 4. (His art is fantastic though, and I have nothing against the card. I just don't think I'd play him, except in an all-artifact deck.)
Wait a second, don't you have that backwards? Johnny cards are cards that work best in combos and in decks specifically designed for them, right? While spike cards are just super efficient cards that tend to go well in any deck they can be cast in? Ignus and Arbiter are both cards you need to build around and combo off of.
Sorry to nitpick, but I think you have it backwards with these particular cards, r_e. Neither the ignus nor the arbiter are "build around me" cards. They're cards designed to stop particular combos or strategies, not make a foundation for them. "Silver bullet" cards like these are clearly spike cards. They're only useful because of their ability to stop other winning strategies, like landfall and fetchlands. They don't make combos and there's no timmy value in them. (I mean, theoretically, you could come up with some Ignus combo where you force your opponent to put multiple lands into play in a turn...but quite obviously he's an anti-landfall dude and the arbiter is an anti-search dude.)
Something for Mimic Vat: evokers in extended, as they are cheap to make die and thus imprint, and paying 3 Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw in particular seem worth it.
In standard, it's vaguely humorous in a deck with Mortician Beetle and a sac outlet to imprint some creature with a good ETB effect. Gatekeeper of Malakir, perhaps. On the creatures-that-die-horribly-for-cheap front, there's Ball Lightning variants. There isn't really anything strong enough to make it crazy at current.
You know what I want from a Mox? Mana, the turn I play it, especially if that turn is turn 1. For Opal to give that, you're almost in MCTL(Magical Christmas Tree Land)--and it cost you 2 more cards. Sure, you got some other stuff out of those--but how many of those would you really want in your deck, if they weren't there to help out the Mox? Chrome or Diamond give mana turn 1, assuming they're imprinted(cost: the worst card in hand that fits); Opal won't until turn 2-3+, most often. You also need a deck that really wants most/all colors of mana--throwing it in a 2-color deck doesn't seem as strong, comparatively. With many decks running some artifact hate until the format shakes out (and then possibly running lots of hate), Metalcraft strategies seem like the most likely to be nerfed by everyone's random artifact hate. I'd suggest unloading your Opals quickly; they're going to drop faster than the Planeswalkers, for example.
Don't worry about speculators driving up prices of this or that; the vast majority of them will be wrong about any given mythic going up from $50, causing them to lose money. Once they've lost enough money, they'll quit trying to jump on every mythic as it's spoiled. Of course, new speculators with more money than experience might join in, but you don't have to. Figure out what you think is valuable, and how much it's worth to you, rather than getting drawn into hype. For example, I'd much rather have 20 Mimic Vats at $2 each, than 1 Koth at $40, if I'm going to speculate; if the Vat only goes up $2 to $4, I've doubled my money--while Koth is much more likely to go down.
Speaking of which:
... I don't see any deck lists or even solid ideas. Other than "it seems good", does anyone have anything to say about Vat?
Sure thing. What I like about Mimic Vat is: imprint without card disadvantage, relative cheapness, and flexibility.
Imprint has, historically, also come with card disadvantage (most exceptions being expensive/casual usage only). You cast the imprint card, imprint something, it gets shattered--you've 2 for 1'd yourself. Mimic Vat sidesteps that; you imprint creatures on their way to the graveyard--if someone shatters the Vat in response, you're not down a card. It's also cheap--not as cheap as isochron scepter to cast/activate, but just 1 more with no converted mana cost restriction. 3 is not an onerous or unprotectable cost.
Flexibility is the main point of the Vat, though. You can imprint the best creature of your opponent(s) (that can be killed), or the best creature of yours that's gone to the graveyard--and if that 'best' changes, you can let go of the old choice, imprinting the new 'best'. Aggro decks can use the Vat as sweeper/removal insurance, 'saving' their best creature--and if their opponent is running artifact hate, then they're running less creature hate. Control decks can use the Vat as a cheap threat/source of card advantage; every opponent's deck (except some Pyro Ascension builds) runs creatures worth 'Xeroxing'. Assuming you didn't imprint a legend, you can use the Waylay trick with it; make a creature during Opp's EOT, after 'beginning of EOT' effects have gone on the stack, then make another on your turn, swing with both tokens. Even combo decks can use the Vat, at a minimum to buy time, or to abuse 'enter the battlefield' effects. Anarchist in a Vat + Time Warp is infinite turns, unless they can disrupt the loop. Since the imprint is a triggered ability, you can even imprint many cards that would normally remove themselves from the graveyard, thwarting lesser re-animation concepts (WARNING: Attempting to fit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into your Mimic Vat may void your warranty). Feel free to check the Mimic Vat thread for other ideas.
You really don't understand. First off, a speculator is a buyer, not a seller. Secondly but more importantly, SELLERS DO NOT SET THE PRICES - BUYERS DO! Please get that. The only way sellers would dictate the prices if they ALL (every single seller of Magic cards in the world) conspired together to artificially set prices high and never drop them. Unless that happens, and it never will, you'll never be correct in your thinking that sellers set prices and buyers just have to pay them. We have a mostly free market (I say mostly because there is some manipulation going on), which means supply and demand are the rule of the day when it comes to Magic singles prices. Feel free to debate me on this, but do some reading on economics first. I don't say that to be mean; I'm trying to help you understand.
Hi. More than debate you, perhaps I'll clarify. I'm not saying that sellers set the prices, -once the product is out- I did say that I understand the fluctuation in price is set solely by the demand of the buyers. What I'm talking about (and when I use the word "speculators") is of the ebay sellers and stores that upon the spoiling of certain Rare or Mythic and in the space of a couple hours, after gathering people's reactions they start pre-sells with, for Koth's example, a tag of $40 (which is laughable IMHO.)
I understand your point: if the price was perceived as unfair, people wouldn't pre-buy and the card's cost would be necessarily set down by the consumers (which is what certainly happened with Time Reversal.) However, we are at a point when people expect certain cards to be priced highly and even if they don't like the price tag, they'll pre-buy not wanting to miss out/save on future increases, thus, meeting the demand needed to keep that value. Only after the set is finally released, and people had time to play with the cards, they'll start understanding what's the card's real value and their demand will change accordingly, but it's already too late: hundreds of buyers already paid the initial price and all the other stores started acknowledging that price as the "proper" one. If the card is well hyped, and not having other choice, people will begrudlingly keep buying until the card is proven a tanker or otherwise.
In other words, I feel that if those initial price taggers would set a more logical price in a card (say, $25 for Koth) that would be the base of the fluctuation and from there on, the card would go up or down accordingly to demand. Sad thing is that they know they can get away with setting such prices, and even if they're proven wrong, they managed to sell a good bunch of $2.75 cards for over $30. Please note that I'm not accusing you or Jeff (or most other sellers.) I know that you set your prices after averages you gather from eBay or other places, after the arbitrariness has occurred.
So a mythic is twice as hard to pull as a rare, but is almost 13 times as valuable.
People really need to think about that, and what it means.
Your reasoning here is a bit skewed: there are almost 4 times as many rares in a set than Mythics, meaning that there's much more room for chaff that pulls the average rare cost down. YOu should compare only the 15 Mythics against the top 15 rares. Sure, there will still show a disproportionate difference, but not as startling as your bolded giant type would suggest. Anyway, talking of that difference, that is what I'm trying to say, it is definitely not logical, especially when you have cards like the narrow Venser that are definitely NOT better than say, Ratchet Bomb. If it wasn't for the irrational initial prices we should see more top Mythics costing only twice as much (maybe a bit more for the added perceived value of Mythics) as top Rares. Koth is definitely not a $20 rare (remember the Lorwyn pre-Mythic PWs? Garruk was hands-down the most coveted and it was $15 at it's highest,) so it shouldn't be a $40 Mythic.
I doubt it. Even if you accel it out turn 3, and have an active Voltaic Key going, you can still only do something with it starting turn 5, and then every second or third turn after that. I don't think it's worth the mana investment nor the time. Your opponent can Shatter it just before you manage to kill something with it, and then you've wasted multiple turns and a lot of mana.
I've seen this in action. The goal is not to drop it as soon as possible, but to drop it at a point where you can destroy a permanent immediately and have counterspell mana to protect it (and this happens much earlier than you'd expect thanks to ridiculously bigger Chalices). Once you untap next turn, game is basically over.
Now for something totally different, I'm going to try my hand at predictions I'll steal kind's RE format (if it's allright with him) and try my guess at how the table will look at the end of the year
1) Elspeth Tirel :1mana::thumbsup: ($30?)
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$30:rate0::rate0::rate0:
2) Venser, the Sojourner
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$25:rate0::rate0::rate0:
3) Mox Opal
4) Koth of the Hammer
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$20:rate0::rate0::rate0:
5) Ratchet Bomb (R)
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$15:rate0::rate0::rate0:
6) Wurmcoil Engine
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$10:rate0::rate0::rate0:
7) Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
8) Molten-Tail Masticore
9) Lux Cannon
10) Sunblast Angel (R) :10mana::thumbsup:
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$8:rate0::rate0::rate0:
11) Grand Architect (R)
12) Sword of Body and Mind
13) Indomitable Archangel :3mana::thumbsdown:
14) Argent Sphinx (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
15) Razorverge Thicket (R)
16) Mindslaver
17) Copperline Gorge (R)
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$5:rate0::rate0::rate0:
18) Memoricide (R)
19) Mimic Vat (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
20) Steel Hellkite (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
21) Semblance Anvil (R)
22) Blackcleave Cliffs (R) :7mana::thumbsdown:
23) Necrotic Ooze (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
24) Hand of the Praetors (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
25) Darkslick Shores (R) :10mana::thumbsdown: ($3.50?)
An overall increase in the appealing of the rares makes the most expensive Dual (the GW IMHO) stay at the 15th place even though, I predict it will be sold for $3-5 more than presently. There, for the posterity, my optimistic view in the set. Feel free to make fun of my mistakes in 3 months.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when?
It just isn't, so, since forever I guess?
2/2 for would be a crap card. So would 2/2 for :3mana:. 2/2 for with the chance to have protection from all colors is a bit better, but a bit better than garbage isn't necessarily very good. Let's put it this way. If it ALWAYS had protection from all colors, it would be played. But if you want unblockable, you can already get a 2/2 for 3. If you want shroud, you can already get a 3/2 for 3. It does nothing we don't already have, and it doesn't even do it reliably. That's my stance. I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving my opinion on it.
I think you have it backwards with these particular cards, r_e. Neither the ignus nor the arbiter are "build around me" cards. They're cards designed to stop particular combos or strategies, not make a foundation for them. They don't make combos and there's no timmy value in them.
On the contrary - people are trying to combo Ignus with all kinds of things, such as Realm Razer and Warp World type stuff. Opponent takes 15, 18, 21 or more damage, you win.
As for not needing to build around them, are you kidding? They're symmetrical. If you're hoping your opponent is just going to play into their abilities, then you're either at the same risk for falling into that trap, or you've built your deck around the cards to avoid doing so. Right?
Hmmm, maybe I don't understand what MaRo's definition of "spike" is. I thought it was efficient, usually simple cards (burn, aggro creatures, card draw etc). Cards like Isamaru, Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak, etc. These guys aren't mana efficient (sorry, but 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 doesn't break any records) and they aren't simple. They're more "utility" than anything else.
Would you settle for johnny-spike? (Not that I care how MaRo classifies cards. It's pretty arbitrary.)
Something for Mimic Vat: evokers in extended, as they are cheap to make die and thus imprint, and paying 3 Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw in particular seem worth it.
Walk me through it. On second thought, I'll walk you through it.
- You have Mimic Vat and Mulldrifter in your opening hand, and enough mana to play them both. Sweet.
- Third turn, you play out the Mimic Vat.
- Sixth turn, you've hit all your hand drops, and have open, so you evoke the Mulldrifter. Draw 2 cards, it dies, you imprint it on the Vat, tap out, and make a token. Draw 2 more cards, swing for 2, and it goes away.
- Seventh turn, you get an extra 2 cards and swing for 2.
Is that what you have in mind? If so, I see the possibilities, but I know of far more devastating 2 card combos for six mana in Extended. Generally, for 6 mana and two cards you want to lock your opponent down or simply win the game, not get a free Mulldrifter.
we are at a point when people expect certain cards to be priced highly and even if they don't like the price tag, they'll pre-buy not wanting to miss out/save on future increases
I see that as the buyer's responsibility. If they "expect" cards to be priced high, and buy even though they don't think the card is worth that price, whose fault is that?
I feel that if those initial price taggers would set a more logical price in a card (say, $25 for Koth) that would be the base of the fluctuation and from there on, the card would go up or down accordingly to demand.
Ahhhh, "logical". Who is to say what's logical? You think Koth is worth $25, I think it's worth $10, and StarCityGames thinks it's worth $50. Which one is logical? All those prices are logical, to those who are setting them. As for "the card would go up or down accordingly to demand", I see what's happening now to be exactly that. Right now Koth is about $40, and is going up and down according to supply and demand.
Maybe you know this, maybe you don't, but when Koth or other cards are spoiled, they appear on eBay immediately. You go check the prices and you notice a bunch at $40, some at $50, and some perhaps even higher, at $60. But what you DON'T see is that some were put up at $20 and some at $30, but they're already sold, so you don't know about them. Bingo - the buyers have set the price, even 10 minutes after the card has been spoiled. All the ones under $40 are bought, all the ones over $40 still remain, and voila: Koth is generally considered to be a $40 card. Free market economics in action.
Your reasoning here is a bit skewed: there are almost 4 times as many rares in a set than Mythics, meaning that there's much more room for chaff that pulls the average rare cost down. YOu should compare only the 15 Mythics against the top 15 rares.
Yikes. I'm afraid that appears to be bad math. Gotta disagree with you there.
You have ably demonstrated that Vat + evoke is not necessarily powerful enough for Extended, though I'd evoke the mulldrifter turn 4 rather than turn 6, and get mulldrifters each turn after that for 3 if the vat doesn't die or you don't die from getting smashed in the face by Doran and friends. (That is a giant if, for sure)
Walk me through it. On second thought, I'll walk you through it.
- You have Mimic Vat and Mulldrifter in your opening hand, and enough mana to play them both. Sweet.
- Third turn, you play out the Mimic Vat.
- Sixth turn, you've hit all your hand drops, and have :5mana::symu: open, so you evoke the Mulldrifter. Draw 2 cards, it dies, you imprint it on the Vat, tap out, and make a token. Draw 2 more cards, swing for 2, and it goes away.
- Seventh turn, you get an extra 2 cards and swing for 2.
Note that you can always evoke 'Drifter in turn 4 and keep playing normally. You may just activate Vat if you have spare mana or if you really need the two cards... then later in the game you imprint Reveillark...
Except the card you exiled with Vat, you mean?
What? That's a card that was already going to the grave, not to mention it may be your opponent's. You're being curiously hardheaded about acknowledging this card picking at straws and all.
But what you DON'T see is that some were put up at $20 and some at $30, but they're already sold, so you don't know about them. Bingo - the buyers have set the price, even 10 minutes after the card has been spoiled. All the ones under $40 are bought, all the ones over $40 still remain, and voila: Koth is generally considered to be a $40 card. Free market economics in action.
Ah, indeed I didn't know that. I'll take your word on it, but it's hard for me to imagine that in this time and age eBayers are going to put an initial low price tag in the PWs if they know they can generally get away with a higher tag. Sounds more likely that they would set an exorbitant price and then lower it until people starts buying (and you know there's always a couple of fools that will pay the exorbitant price, anyway.)
I see that as the buyer's responsibility. If they "expect" cards to be priced high, and buy even though they don't think the card is worth that price, whose fault is that?
Yeah, I guess that you are ultimately right. People just need to chill with the hype on PWs and that would make everything better for everyone. But that's another point: several people complain that all this is to blame on WotC for "concentrating the power in the Mythics", however, in SOM the PWs are by no means the most powerful cards of the set. Ratchet Bomb, Wurmcoil Engine and perhaps Mox and Sunblast Angel. Maybe Elspeth is in there too after them. If people didn't buy into the hype and remembered that when PWs were rare they topped at $15 with Garruk, and hell, none of the SOM planeswalkers is in Garruk's level, particularly not Koth. So no, it's not WotC cackling evilly while twirling their moustaches whom generate the disparity between Mythics and Rares' costs beyond the rational difference in scarcity. It's YOU, the community.
Yikes. I'm afraid that appears to be bad math. Gotta disagree with you there.
Uh? The only math I made is stating that there are almost 4 times as many rares than Mythics in a set, but fine, there are 3.56 times more rares than Mythics in a set. I don't see how that invalidates my point that a bigger amount of rares, with a good percentage of them being chaff lower the average cost of the rares in a way that cannot be compared agains the short 15-card pool of the Mythics, especially if the goal is generate such sensasionalist statements.
I'm calling it right now- worst rare in the set. Even good limited players will find better bombs at common and uncommon no sweat. Worst. Episode. Ever.
I really do predict this to be our worst rare in set award winner. I'd be happier opening a jar of eyeballs, so I think anything worse is highly unlikely. This card wont just have zero constructed potential, but not be significantly better than a mass of ghouls in a draft.
How many people plan to run artifact creatures as the majority of their creature base though? From what I've read, most people are saying are a very few artifact creatures in SoM that are worth running.
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Ah, indeed I didn't know that. I'll take your word on it, but it's hard for me to imagine that in this time and age eBayers are going to put an initial low price tag in the PWs if they know they can generally get away with a higher tag. Sounds more likely that they would set an exorbitant price and then lower it until people starts buying (and you know there's always a couple of fools that will pay the exorbitant price, anyway.)
To put it in perspective: RE priced Koth at 3 dollars. Assuming he had the mindset you're speaking about...in his mind, 20 dollars would have been that higher price tag he'd have been trying to get away with.
To put it in perspective: RE priced Koth at 3 dollars. Assuming he had the mindset you're speaking about...in his mind, 20 dollars would have been that higher price tag he'd have been trying to get away with.
To be fair he admitted to not having fully read the card first when making the comment about what he felt the card might be "worth". Instinct is a great tool to use, however if people are paying $40 for the card on ebay consistently, then pricing it at $20 would just be dumb. Pricing it at $35 if you assume it was going to drop however, would make sense. Im certainly going to likely adjust some of the top mythics downward a tad when I do price them for release day at the shop because Im sure they wont stay that high. Probably price Koth at $35, Elspeth and Venser at around $33, and the Mox at $30 (based upon the last prices I saw). I personally believe them to all be overpriced right now and expect them all to drop, so Ill be watching them like a hawk to be sure.
It just isn't, so, since forever I guess?
2/2 for would be a crap card. So would 2/2 for :3mana:. 2/2 for with the chance to have protection from all colors is a bit better, but a bit better than garbage isn't necessarily very good. Let's put it this way. If it ALWAYS had protection from all colors, it would be played. But if you want unblockable, you can already get a 2/2 for 3. If you want shroud, you can already get a 3/2 for 3. It does nothing we don't already have, and it doesn't even do it reliably. That's my stance. I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving my opinion on it.
Yup. If it had been 2/1 for :2mana:, with the "sometimes protection", it would be played.
On the contrary - people are trying to combo Ignus with all kinds of things, such as Realm Razer and Warp World type stuff. Opponent takes 15, 18, 21 or more damage, you win.
As for not needing to build around them, are you kidding? They're symmetrical. If you're hoping your opponent is just going to play into their abilities, then you're either at the same risk for falling into that trap, or you've built your deck around the cards to avoid doing so. Right?
Hmmm, maybe I don't understand what MaRo's definition of "spike" is. I thought it was efficient, usually simple cards (burn, aggro creatures, card draw etc). Cards like Isamaru, Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak, etc. These guys aren't mana efficient (sorry, but 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 doesn't break any records) and they aren't simple. They're more "utility" than anything else.
Would you settle for johnny-spike? (Not that I care how MaRo classifies cards. It's pretty arbitrary.)
Walk me through it. On second thought, I'll walk you through it.
- You have Mimic Vat and Mulldrifter in your opening hand, and enough mana to play them both. Sweet.
- Third turn, you play out the Mimic Vat.
- Sixth turn, you've hit all your hand drops, and have :5mana::symu: open, so you evoke the Mulldrifter. Draw 2 cards, it dies, you imprint it on the Vat, tap out, and make a token. Draw 2 more cards, swing for 2, and it goes away.
- Seventh turn, you get an extra 2 cards and swing for 2.
Is that what you have in mind? If so, I see the possibilities, but I know of far more devastating 2 card combos for six mana in Extended. Generally, for 6 mana and two cards you want to lock your opponent down or simply win the game, not get a free Mulldrifter.
Except the card you exiled with Vat, you mean?
Okay, I'll buy that. It does seem like it would be fun to have out, at the very least. I can see why you bought all 8 of mine
I see that as the buyer's responsibility. If they "expect" cards to be priced high, and buy even though they don't think the card is worth that price, whose fault is that?
Ahhhh, "logical". Who is to say what's logical? You think Koth is worth $25, I think it's worth $10, and StarCityGames thinks it's worth $50. Which one is logical? All those prices are logical, to those who are setting them. As for "the card would go up or down accordingly to demand", I see what's happening now to be exactly that. Right now Koth is about $40, and is going up and down according to supply and demand.
Maybe you know this, maybe you don't, but when Koth or other cards are spoiled, they appear on eBay immediately. You go check the prices and you notice a bunch at $40, some at $50, and some perhaps even higher, at $60. But what you DON'T see is that some were put up at $20 and some at $30, but they're already sold, so you don't know about them. Bingo - the buyers have set the price, even 10 minutes after the card has been spoiled. All the ones under $40 are bought, all the ones over $40 still remain, and voila: Koth is generally considered to be a $40 card. Free market economics in action.
Yikes. I'm afraid that appears to be bad math. Gotta disagree with you there.
Johnny likes cards he has to be creative and inventive with to have them be awesome.
Spike likes cards that are competitive and that let him show that he is more skilled or understands the game better.
The best example of a Spike card is Gifts Ungiven: its competitively costed for tournament play, and the choices involved allow Spike to use his better understanding of the game to own his opponent. Gifts was a card specifically created to tournament spike players.
Tunnel Ignus is Johnny-Spike. It has combolicious potential, but the first thing people see looking at it is 'fetchland/landfall hoser priced to see tournament play'
Leonin Arbiter is pretty much exactly a Spike card; it has no appeal other than that it owns the hell out of popular tournament strategies.
competitive tournament players who want to hose other strategies
casual players who hate people with lots of tutors/fetches/other library search stuff.
Arbiter is a wierd card thats almost for the most and least casual magic players.
Rosewater's player psychographics are really pretty intuitive IMO.
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I dont see a use for it in most legacy decks to be honest. The metalcraft requirement for it is a huge drawback particularly for a format with a very limited number of artifacts that see play outside of ANT decks (the swords cycle, sensei's divining top, and umezawa's jitte). I see it as a 1-2 of in ANT but in few other decks because of legendary and metalcraft. Mox Opal is the card I see most likely to drop in price among the mythics followed maybe by venser.
I am a bit surprised putrefax isn't anywhere on R_E's list and near the bottom of Jeff's. It is a pretty solid poison creature and can come out early in a green deck. I cant expect it to get too high because it's in a precon but I was expecting it to get a little love
Livewire lash may get a bit of play with infect as well. Not so much as a strategy in and of itself but rather to speed up the clock on a poison creature. Put it on skithiryx (my candidate for new most misspelled card in the history of magic) and he becomes a 2 turn clock that can add poison counters at instant speed. The instant speed poison counters is the best sell for this card
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
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The Sphinx pretty much relegated to heavy blue because of the UU cost of bringing him into play. The Etched can play in any deck that wants him. Etched isn't just good in heavy artifact decks because equipment just got a lot better with this set and even having the chance of having him out plus equipment is better then not having it at all. A four of in every deck? Of course not. Something viable to think about? Certainly.
In any case, in some ways I'm glad that this set is so mythic heavy, since a LOT of the rares in the set have me salivating. Funky thing is that mythics still are salivating stuff, just that this time there are enough rares for me to chew on as well. I'm glad to see rachet bomb in rare, as them putting it in mythic would literally be like rubbing salt in everybody's wounds.
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Because they're rare?
No, but seriously: because they're rare. Also, because they're sideboard cards, or cards you have to build a deck around, or both. Cards like that, while strong here and there, aren't strong everywhere, which is what it takes to get a rare into the top 20 now. Ratchet Bomb is maindeckable, goes into many more decks than the red and white cards you mentioned, doesn't require you to build your deck around it, and so on.
Yeah, sorry, I meant Vintage, not Legacy. Legacy might have applications for it but Vintage is clearly where it's auto-included.
Appreciate the support Hammer, but I'm not looking to be thanked. It's just a thread, I do it because I like doing it, not for recognition. When I stepped down from the staff here I started contributing via this thread, since card pricing is kinda what I do, and I felt like people might be interested. Thanks are welcomed but not required, and if people want to debate points I'm ready and willing. The random personal attacks, and claims that I whine too much, fall on deaf ears however.
Yeah agreed. There are a couple bones thrown in for constructed, but they are the exception. Everything else is either unplayable everywhere, or limited chaff.
Excellent point, actually. You snuck that in at the end of your post, but it was worth an entire post for itself. You're quite right - power creep, at least in creature form, seems to be mostly on hold. There are a bunch of 8/8s for 8 and 7/7s for 7 and 6/6s for 6 with really good abilities that outclass anything that came before it, but otherwise creep seems to have been put on the shelf for SOM.
Wait a second, don't you have that backwards? Johnny cards are cards that work best in combos and in decks specifically designed for them, right? While spike cards are just super efficient cards that tend to go well in any deck they can be cast in? Ignus and Arbiter are both cards you need to build around and combo off of.
I have some conspiracy theories about that, but it's kind of off topic so I'll save it for now.
You really don't understand. First off, a speculator is a buyer, not a seller. Secondly but more importantly, SELLERS DO NOT SET THE PRICES - BUYERS DO! Please get that. The only way sellers would dictate the prices if they ALL (every single seller of Magic cards in the world) conspired together to artificially set prices high and never drop them. Unless that happens, and it never will, you'll never be correct in your thinking that sellers set prices and buyers just have to pay them. We have a mostly free market (I say mostly because there is some manipulation going on), which means supply and demand are the rule of the day when it comes to Magic singles prices. Feel free to debate me on this, but do some reading on economics first. I don't say that to be mean; I'm trying to help you understand.
Much appreciated Jeff!
So a mythic is twice as hard to pull as a rare, but is almost 13 times as valuable.
People really need to think about that, and what it means.
I'm paying $110, and I don't charge anything to help cover my overhead costs, so it looks like this is going to be a non-profit venture. If I manage break even. And if the value of the set doesn't go down, which is something that has never happened.
How very political of you! This is an incredibly toned down version of your opinion that you expressed yesterday in the M11 thread. Probably a wise move though.
You're right. Typo/brainfart, sorry. I meant Vintage.
I don't want it stickied, no. Sticky threads get noticed LESS than non-stickied threads, believe it or not. Besides, this thread is always near the top of the forum, so there's no trouble finding it.
As for splitting into multiple threads, I'm open to suggestions on how to execute that, but don't particularly see the need. I make sure to mark which post is the most recently updated, and you're free to go and look at the past updates. I also mark trends in price moves with direction arrows, position numbers, and change-in-position indicators.
Interesting. Do you think the others will drop like stones, or do you think Venser is going to go up? It really doesn't feel very valuable to me, so for it to take first spot I think the other top 3 cards are going to have to lose half their value.
It's pretty sick. used to get you Phyrexian Hulk, and that was a good deal. Now it gets not only +1/+2, but lifelink (HUGE), deathtouch (added value), and when it dies you get 2 creatures to replace it, each worth at least if you were to cast them from your hand. Very overpowered. (I won't mention that there's nothing mythic about it except the power level..... woops too late!)
What are its uses? From what I can see, the only decks that can use it must be monoblue, creature based, and filled with artifacts. If the deck isn't all three of those, Architect is very sub par. How many creature-based mono blue artifact decks do you expect?
I doubt it. Even if you accel it out turn 3, and have an active Voltaic Key going, you can still only do something with it starting turn 5, and then every second or third turn after that. I don't think it's worth the mana investment nor the time. Your opponent can Shatter it just before you manage to kill something with it, and then you've wasted multiple turns and a lot of mana.
I'm keeping my eye on it. Currently you can get a playset for $10 on eBay, but we'll watch it over the next week and see what happens. I see it as a 2-of in defensive white decks. It's not very aggro, dies to almost everything, and you don't want to draw multiples generally, so it won't go in every deck like BSA.
I don't think it makes or breaks control decks. If a very slow control deck manages to reach tier 1, then maybe it'll play with Journal. But Journal won't make that deck happen in the first place.
I see people saying that, but I don't see any deck lists or even solid ideas. Other than "it seems good", does anyone have anything to say about Vat?
I'm not seeing any possibilities, let alone endless ones. All it does that can't be done better elsewhere is ":4mana: : Regenerate target creature you control."
I know, right? Shivan on steroids and no more need for red mana. I'm surprised they didn't just make it 6/6 and mythic Really good card. I'll be keeping a playset of that one for myself.
Sure, I see what you're saying. But that's similar to saying Primordial Sage will get stronger as more creatures come out. While true, the effect is negligible. I DO think Mox Opal is good though. It'll be interesting to see where the price goes.
I'm starting to think you're just joking around. Mox Opal is going to go up? Leonin Arbiter is the best rare in the set? Etched Champion? You realize that "protection from all colors" isn't all that strong, right? I'd rather play Knight of Dawn, and that's not a good card, but at least it has first strike, doesn't require I build my deck around it, and has a strong creature type.
I think people get excited about things they're interested in. True, nobody here is into the stock market crash or the collapsing economy (though they will be soon). If you had stock brokers talking about Magic cards, they probably wouldn't get excited or "salty". But these are Magic players, dealers, and collectors. They do get excited about Magic cards.
Doubt it - it's pretty terrible. +1/+1 to all Myr? Big deal. I really don't see Myr decks being big like Elves, Goblins, Vampires etc, so I don't think a "Myr lord" card is going to see play.
It should be on the bottom end of the list, and will be when I update (soon). It's success will depend 99% on how Infect does. It's not a good creature in any way except for the poison counters it generates. Other than that, there are better options for everything it does.
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There's plenty of Vintage decks that won't run Opal. Oath of Druids decks won't because making Metalcraft is hard for that deck and not worth the trouble since Null Rod is widely played. MUD decks likely won't since they don't need the colored mana. Obviously Dredge has no need. Most in not all Fish decks won't either. Other rougue-ish strategies like Elves, Goblins, R/G Beatz, Worldgorger Dragon Combo, Gro, and Dark Times will all likely pass it up. Five color Stax (a seldom played archetype) and Time Vault decks are probably the only ones that will bother with this thing- and probably just as a singleton.
EDIT: Forgot to mention TPS decks will play it and maybe ANT decks (Vintage Version) will try it out.
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Protection from all colors is not that good? Since when? Pro all colors means champion is unblockable, or can chump all day long. Attach some equipment and it's a machine. The common played cards it dies to are Journey to Nowhere and DoJ. Etched champion is bonkers, especially when it goes into legacy affinity and gets a Cranial Plating.
Journey to Nowhere can't target the etched champion. That's more of an Emrakul weakness.
It's also a 2/2 for 3. If it were competitively costed, Pro: All Colors would be a very solid effect. It's not; you're paying around two mana for your sometimes-on protection. In Legacy, maybe - I don't know that format very well. In Standard, it's quite poor. DoJ still catches it fine, and a Grey Ogre isn't enough to force a DoJ, so they aren't even under pressure the way they are from, say, Malakir Bloodwitch. Plus, Ratchet Bomb catches it straight up (often with value, even), and it can't exactly brawl with Wurmcoil Engine.
It also doesn't die to Journey, FYI. Journey can't target it. (Emrakul is different.)
Card is quite poor.
Bear this in mind the next time a powerful mythic rare is spoiled
Thanks to chaostheory90 for finding this quiz for me
Yes, it is quite literally going to be a long day, because that etched will take 10 turns to kill someone.
Um yeah, but the only decks that are going to want him are metalcraft decks. And to be honest I'm a lot more excited about 4-damage bolts or UU counterspells and 8/8 tramplers for 4. (His art is fantastic though, and I have nothing against the card. I just don't think I'd play him, except in an all-artifact deck.)
Sorry to nitpick, but I think you have it backwards with these particular cards, r_e. Neither the ignus nor the arbiter are "build around me" cards. They're cards designed to stop particular combos or strategies, not make a foundation for them. "Silver bullet" cards like these are clearly spike cards. They're only useful because of their ability to stop other winning strategies, like landfall and fetchlands. They don't make combos and there's no timmy value in them. (I mean, theoretically, you could come up with some Ignus combo where you force your opponent to put multiple lands into play in a turn...but quite obviously he's an anti-landfall dude and the arbiter is an anti-search dude.)
Mulldrifter and Shriekmaw in particular seem worth it.
In standard, it's vaguely humorous in a deck with Mortician Beetle and a sac outlet to imprint some creature with a good ETB effect. Gatekeeper of Malakir, perhaps. On the creatures-that-die-horribly-for-cheap front, there's Ball Lightning variants. There isn't really anything strong enough to make it crazy at current.
Don't worry about speculators driving up prices of this or that; the vast majority of them will be wrong about any given mythic going up from $50, causing them to lose money. Once they've lost enough money, they'll quit trying to jump on every mythic as it's spoiled. Of course, new speculators with more money than experience might join in, but you don't have to. Figure out what you think is valuable, and how much it's worth to you, rather than getting drawn into hype. For example, I'd much rather have 20 Mimic Vats at $2 each, than 1 Koth at $40, if I'm going to speculate; if the Vat only goes up $2 to $4, I've doubled my money--while Koth is much more likely to go down.
Speaking of which:
Sure thing. What I like about Mimic Vat is: imprint without card disadvantage, relative cheapness, and flexibility.
Imprint has, historically, also come with card disadvantage (most exceptions being expensive/casual usage only). You cast the imprint card, imprint something, it gets shattered--you've 2 for 1'd yourself. Mimic Vat sidesteps that; you imprint creatures on their way to the graveyard--if someone shatters the Vat in response, you're not down a card. It's also cheap--not as cheap as isochron scepter to cast/activate, but just 1 more with no converted mana cost restriction. 3 is not an onerous or unprotectable cost.
Flexibility is the main point of the Vat, though. You can imprint the best creature of your opponent(s) (that can be killed), or the best creature of yours that's gone to the graveyard--and if that 'best' changes, you can let go of the old choice, imprinting the new 'best'. Aggro decks can use the Vat as sweeper/removal insurance, 'saving' their best creature--and if their opponent is running artifact hate, then they're running less creature hate. Control decks can use the Vat as a cheap threat/source of card advantage; every opponent's deck (except some Pyro Ascension builds) runs creatures worth 'Xeroxing'. Assuming you didn't imprint a legend, you can use the Waylay trick with it; make a creature during Opp's EOT, after 'beginning of EOT' effects have gone on the stack, then make another on your turn, swing with both tokens. Even combo decks can use the Vat, at a minimum to buy time, or to abuse 'enter the battlefield' effects. Anarchist in a Vat + Time Warp is infinite turns, unless they can disrupt the loop. Since the imprint is a triggered ability, you can even imprint many cards that would normally remove themselves from the graveyard, thwarting lesser re-animation concepts (WARNING: Attempting to fit Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into your Mimic Vat may void your warranty). Feel free to check the Mimic Vat thread for other ideas.
Hi. More than debate you, perhaps I'll clarify. I'm not saying that sellers set the prices, -once the product is out- I did say that I understand the fluctuation in price is set solely by the demand of the buyers. What I'm talking about (and when I use the word "speculators") is of the ebay sellers and stores that upon the spoiling of certain Rare or Mythic and in the space of a couple hours, after gathering people's reactions they start pre-sells with, for Koth's example, a tag of $40 (which is laughable IMHO.)
I understand your point: if the price was perceived as unfair, people wouldn't pre-buy and the card's cost would be necessarily set down by the consumers (which is what certainly happened with Time Reversal.) However, we are at a point when people expect certain cards to be priced highly and even if they don't like the price tag, they'll pre-buy not wanting to miss out/save on future increases, thus, meeting the demand needed to keep that value. Only after the set is finally released, and people had time to play with the cards, they'll start understanding what's the card's real value and their demand will change accordingly, but it's already too late: hundreds of buyers already paid the initial price and all the other stores started acknowledging that price as the "proper" one. If the card is well hyped, and not having other choice, people will begrudlingly keep buying until the card is proven a tanker or otherwise.
In other words, I feel that if those initial price taggers would set a more logical price in a card (say, $25 for Koth) that would be the base of the fluctuation and from there on, the card would go up or down accordingly to demand. Sad thing is that they know they can get away with setting such prices, and even if they're proven wrong, they managed to sell a good bunch of $2.75 cards for over $30. Please note that I'm not accusing you or Jeff (or most other sellers.) I know that you set your prices after averages you gather from eBay or other places, after the arbitrariness has occurred.
Your reasoning here is a bit skewed: there are almost 4 times as many rares in a set than Mythics, meaning that there's much more room for chaff that pulls the average rare cost down. YOu should compare only the 15 Mythics against the top 15 rares. Sure, there will still show a disproportionate difference, but not as startling as your bolded giant type would suggest. Anyway, talking of that difference, that is what I'm trying to say, it is definitely not logical, especially when you have cards like the narrow Venser that are definitely NOT better than say, Ratchet Bomb. If it wasn't for the irrational initial prices we should see more top Mythics costing only twice as much (maybe a bit more for the added perceived value of Mythics) as top Rares. Koth is definitely not a $20 rare (remember the Lorwyn pre-Mythic PWs? Garruk was hands-down the most coveted and it was $15 at it's highest,) so it shouldn't be a $40 Mythic.
I've seen this in action. The goal is not to drop it as soon as possible, but to drop it at a point where you can destroy a permanent immediately and have counterspell mana to protect it (and this happens much earlier than you'd expect thanks to ridiculously bigger Chalices). Once you untap next turn, game is basically over.
Now for something totally different, I'm going to try my hand at predictions I'll steal kind's RE format (if it's allright with him) and try my guess at how the table will look at the end of the year
1) Elspeth Tirel :1mana::thumbsup: ($30?)
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$30:rate0::rate0::rate0:
2) Venser, the Sojourner
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$25:rate0::rate0::rate0:
3) Mox Opal
4) Koth of the Hammer
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$20:rate0::rate0::rate0:
5) Ratchet Bomb (R)
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$15:rate0::rate0::rate0:
6) Wurmcoil Engine
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$10:rate0::rate0::rate0:
7) Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
8) Molten-Tail Masticore
9) Lux Cannon
10) Sunblast Angel (R) :10mana::thumbsup:
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$8:rate0::rate0::rate0:
11) Grand Architect (R)
12) Sword of Body and Mind
13) Indomitable Archangel :3mana::thumbsdown:
14) Argent Sphinx (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
15) Razorverge Thicket (R)
16) Mindslaver
17) Copperline Gorge (R)
:rate0::rate0::rate0:$5:rate0::rate0::rate0:
18) Memoricide (R)
19) Mimic Vat (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
20) Steel Hellkite (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
21) Semblance Anvil (R)
22) Blackcleave Cliffs (R) :7mana::thumbsdown:
23) Necrotic Ooze (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
24) Hand of the Praetors (R) :?mana::thumbsup:
25) Darkslick Shores (R) :10mana::thumbsdown: ($3.50?)
An overall increase in the appealing of the rares makes the most expensive Dual (the GW IMHO) stay at the 15th place even though, I predict it will be sold for $3-5 more than presently. There, for the posterity, my optimistic view in the set. Feel free to make fun of my mistakes in 3 months.
It just isn't, so, since forever I guess?
2/2 for would be a crap card. So would 2/2 for :3mana:. 2/2 for with the chance to have protection from all colors is a bit better, but a bit better than garbage isn't necessarily very good. Let's put it this way. If it ALWAYS had protection from all colors, it would be played. But if you want unblockable, you can already get a 2/2 for 3. If you want shroud, you can already get a 3/2 for 3. It does nothing we don't already have, and it doesn't even do it reliably. That's my stance. I'm not saying you're wrong, just giving my opinion on it.
Yup. If it had been 2/1 for :2mana:, with the "sometimes protection", it would be played.
On the contrary - people are trying to combo Ignus with all kinds of things, such as Realm Razer and Warp World type stuff. Opponent takes 15, 18, 21 or more damage, you win.
As for not needing to build around them, are you kidding? They're symmetrical. If you're hoping your opponent is just going to play into their abilities, then you're either at the same risk for falling into that trap, or you've built your deck around the cards to avoid doing so. Right?
Hmmm, maybe I don't understand what MaRo's definition of "spike" is. I thought it was efficient, usually simple cards (burn, aggro creatures, card draw etc). Cards like Isamaru, Lightning Bolt, Mana Leak, etc. These guys aren't mana efficient (sorry, but 2/2 or 2/1 for 2 doesn't break any records) and they aren't simple. They're more "utility" than anything else.
Would you settle for johnny-spike? (Not that I care how MaRo classifies cards. It's pretty arbitrary.)
Walk me through it. On second thought, I'll walk you through it.
- You have Mimic Vat and Mulldrifter in your opening hand, and enough mana to play them both. Sweet.
- Third turn, you play out the Mimic Vat.
- Sixth turn, you've hit all your hand drops, and have open, so you evoke the Mulldrifter. Draw 2 cards, it dies, you imprint it on the Vat, tap out, and make a token. Draw 2 more cards, swing for 2, and it goes away.
- Seventh turn, you get an extra 2 cards and swing for 2.
Is that what you have in mind? If so, I see the possibilities, but I know of far more devastating 2 card combos for six mana in Extended. Generally, for 6 mana and two cards you want to lock your opponent down or simply win the game, not get a free Mulldrifter.
Except the card you exiled with Vat, you mean?
Okay, I'll buy that. It does seem like it would be fun to have out, at the very least. I can see why you bought all 8 of mine
I see that as the buyer's responsibility. If they "expect" cards to be priced high, and buy even though they don't think the card is worth that price, whose fault is that?
Ahhhh, "logical". Who is to say what's logical? You think Koth is worth $25, I think it's worth $10, and StarCityGames thinks it's worth $50. Which one is logical? All those prices are logical, to those who are setting them. As for "the card would go up or down accordingly to demand", I see what's happening now to be exactly that. Right now Koth is about $40, and is going up and down according to supply and demand.
Maybe you know this, maybe you don't, but when Koth or other cards are spoiled, they appear on eBay immediately. You go check the prices and you notice a bunch at $40, some at $50, and some perhaps even higher, at $60. But what you DON'T see is that some were put up at $20 and some at $30, but they're already sold, so you don't know about them. Bingo - the buyers have set the price, even 10 minutes after the card has been spoiled. All the ones under $40 are bought, all the ones over $40 still remain, and voila: Koth is generally considered to be a $40 card. Free market economics in action.
Yikes. I'm afraid that appears to be bad math. Gotta disagree with you there.
.
Note that you can always evoke 'Drifter in turn 4 and keep playing normally. You may just activate Vat if you have spare mana or if you really need the two cards... then later in the game you imprint Reveillark...
What? That's a card that was already going to the grave, not to mention it may be your opponent's. You're being curiously hardheaded about acknowledging this card picking at straws and all.
Ah, indeed I didn't know that. I'll take your word on it, but it's hard for me to imagine that in this time and age eBayers are going to put an initial low price tag in the PWs if they know they can generally get away with a higher tag. Sounds more likely that they would set an exorbitant price and then lower it until people starts buying (and you know there's always a couple of fools that will pay the exorbitant price, anyway.)
Yeah, I guess that you are ultimately right. People just need to chill with the hype on PWs and that would make everything better for everyone. But that's another point: several people complain that all this is to blame on WotC for "concentrating the power in the Mythics", however, in SOM the PWs are by no means the most powerful cards of the set. Ratchet Bomb, Wurmcoil Engine and perhaps Mox and Sunblast Angel. Maybe Elspeth is in there too after them. If people didn't buy into the hype and remembered that when PWs were rare they topped at $15 with Garruk, and hell, none of the SOM planeswalkers is in Garruk's level, particularly not Koth. So no, it's not WotC cackling evilly while twirling their moustaches whom generate the disparity between Mythics and Rares' costs beyond the rational difference in scarcity. It's YOU, the community.
Uh? The only math I made is stating that there are almost 4 times as many rares than Mythics in a set, but fine, there are 3.56 times more rares than Mythics in a set. I don't see how that invalidates my point that a bigger amount of rares, with a good percentage of them being chaff lower the average cost of the rares in a way that cannot be compared agains the short 15-card pool of the Mythics, especially if the goal is generate such sensasionalist statements.
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To put it in perspective: RE priced Koth at 3 dollars. Assuming he had the mindset you're speaking about...in his mind, 20 dollars would have been that higher price tag he'd have been trying to get away with.
To be fair he admitted to not having fully read the card first when making the comment about what he felt the card might be "worth". Instinct is a great tool to use, however if people are paying $40 for the card on ebay consistently, then pricing it at $20 would just be dumb. Pricing it at $35 if you assume it was going to drop however, would make sense. Im certainly going to likely adjust some of the top mythics downward a tad when I do price them for release day at the shop because Im sure they wont stay that high. Probably price Koth at $35, Elspeth and Venser at around $33, and the Mox at $30 (based upon the last prices I saw). I personally believe them to all be overpriced right now and expect them all to drop, so Ill be watching them like a hawk to be sure.
Johnny likes cards he has to be creative and inventive with to have them be awesome.
Spike likes cards that are competitive and that let him show that he is more skilled or understands the game better.
The best example of a Spike card is Gifts Ungiven: its competitively costed for tournament play, and the choices involved allow Spike to use his better understanding of the game to own his opponent. Gifts was a card specifically created to tournament spike players.
Tunnel Ignus is Johnny-Spike. It has combolicious potential, but the first thing people see looking at it is 'fetchland/landfall hoser priced to see tournament play'
Leonin Arbiter is pretty much exactly a Spike card; it has no appeal other than that it owns the hell out of popular tournament strategies.
competitive tournament players who want to hose other strategies
casual players who hate people with lots of tutors/fetches/other library search stuff.
Arbiter is a wierd card thats almost for the most and least casual magic players.
Rosewater's player psychographics are really pretty intuitive IMO.