First off, Adriodr (Adrian) was notorious for not giving a crap about trading. He was notoriously famous amongst moderators of the Market Street for his open threads against him. His banning was a long time coming. The final straw was a 6-7 dollar trade that he didn't send out of principle (he was mad at the user) and took the ban. A month later he sold his sicko collection on ebay for the downpayment of his house.
However, FPS is right, time is really important. Amount of refs, not so much. I feel more comfortable with doing a deal with someone with around 100 refs and 5 years invested than 100 refs and 6 months invested.
I never really did huge dollar amount trades but I never had a problem simul-sending with anyone over 25 refs at any point. (actually this is probably the deciding factor that I didnt have any problems.)
I thought I had actually been burned a couple times, but it never really happened. Heck I recieved a package from a user that had been banned for ripping (not my BTR either) almost three months after the fact with an apology attached.
Adrian crapped out on me once and I had to open a btr to get him to send. Got a bunch of angry pms from him saying I should have pm'ed him first, yet I did 5 times over a month time frame.
Someone with 100+ refs telling me I had to send first would also make me fall out of my chair laughing.
I feel that I've earned the kickback of having others send first, 6 years and running! lol (barring the small hieatus I had in between hehe) BUT I don't always make people send first unless they're below 20 rating. Plus, if i've traded with a specific individual before, I simul-send, no ifs ands or buts barring special circumstances. They've proven themselves to me so I have no problem of doing a simul-send with them. There's a handful of people here that can back me on this =D In terms of sending first though, I have people send first to prove themselves to me that they're trustworthy.
As for the time issue, i mean, if you're looking to get cards for this week's FNM or GP or PT or w/e, you should either A. learn to plan ahead of time if you wanna acquire them via online trading or B. don't even trouble yourself or those you wish to engage a trade with, only serves to show how selfish you are by forcing people into an option they may not be comfortable with. If you just don't wanna wait too long for your cards, learn patience. Honestly, we're here so that we don't have to pay for cards/find cards other stores do not have and/or get those cards cheaper than online stores sell them for. Sure it'll probably take longer compared to buying from an online store/vendor, but at least you're going to get it (more often than not anyway). Can't have the best of both worlds in online trading ya know, and if you do, you're probably living in fantasy-land =D
People have to remember, barring individuals with the means to ship via UPS/FedEx/DHL/whatever on each of their trades, the rest of us are normal people. We use USPS to ship stuff due to cost (cheap in comparison), so it is going to take some time, and more often than not longer than the specialized shipping services as previously stated, so again, learn some patience.
If that doesn't work for you, build up your rep here, stay trustworthy, and have people you don't trust send first to ya.
For trades, I always do simulsend unless the other party has an objection. For purchases/sales, I like payment before shipment because that just makes sense (you're not gonna order something from a store and expect them to send it to you before you pay them are you?).
# of refs doesn't matter to me.
I guess I just don't care enough to protect myself from being ripped.
The sending first based on refs seems insanely pointless past 20 refs. "I have 7000 and you have 4600, you need to send first" - insanity.
Amen, maybe not past 20, but there should be a point where it doesn't matter. I distinctly remember some few people making it difficult for me back when I first started even when I passed 30 due to some minor small diff in refs...funny b/c I usually surpassed them in refs by the time my cards arrived.
Also, if you DO buy from a seller with less than 50 refs, since you yourself have 150+ refs I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for the product first.
Yeah that usually works, I guess I'm just surprised when the answer is no, doh! ^^ Like Telekinesis said, I find it humorous when someone with zero refs puts up a sale and sales "You pay first". I guess the prevailing thought is like dyzzy said, "payment before shipment because that just makes sense (you're not gonna order something from a store and expect them to send it to you before you pay them are you?)", but when you buy from a store it's not from a random anonymous person online with no address and no BBB to complain to
Personally, I would be insulted if someone asked me to "send first" then I would reply with hell no and move on.
I've done zero trading here but have lots of experience with other "collectible cards" value in the $25-$500 range and every single time we sent cards at the same time. It's really not that hard to pick out the "scammers"... if you aren't sure, then don't trade -that's way more risk free than complicated time-consuming rules.
I can't be the only one this community has scared off. You guys still seem to be thriving so it's probably not a "huge" issue but there's some food for thought...
It's an instant speed 5/5 trampler for 4. Wtf do you people want seriously? It has applications in populate/ above the curve beats decks, or in Bant control/ flash. I seriously think anyone mad at this card for any reason other than losing an attacker to instant speed wurm, should go home and make their own awesome card game and leave the rest of us alone.
Personally, I would be insulted if someone asked me to "send first" then I would reply with hell no and move on.
I've done zero trading here but have lots of experience with other "collectible cards" value in the $25-$500 range and every single time we sent cards at the same time. It's really not that hard to pick out the "scammers"... if you aren't sure, then don't trade -that's way more risk free than complicated time-consuming rules.
I can't be the only one this community has scared off. You guys still seem to be thriving so it's probably not a "huge" issue but there's some food for thought...
People will only request you to send first if you have very little or no feedback. What's wrong with this? No one wants to get ripped off, and if you're a new trader you just have to deal with this because there's no way for everyone else to know whether or not you'll actually come through on the trade. If someone has 35 references with 100% feedback, it's a pretty safe bet they aren't going to rip you off. If you have 0 trades, expect to send first. The guy on the other end with 100 trades under his belt is going to be reliable, no one who has bothered to acquire so many feedback points would risk losing their credibility just to get ahead on a few cards.
Personally, I would be insulted if someone asked me to "send first" then I would reply with hell no and move on.
I've done zero trading here but have lots of experience with other "collectible cards" value in the $25-$500 range and every single time we sent cards at the same time. It's really not that hard to pick out the "scammers"... if you aren't sure, then don't trade -that's way more risk free than complicated time-consuming rules.
I can't be the only one this community has scared off. You guys still seem to be thriving so it's probably not a "huge" issue but there's some food for thought...
Er...what? I fail to see how smart business practice is "scary" (also, what's with the quotations on everything dude?).
You say personally you would be insulted if someone asked you to send first...why? You have no refs. Why would they take an additional risk when they have earned their references? Also, take a look at the BTR threads. It IS quite hard to pick out the scammers. Sometimes they seem reputable but you never know when they will rip.
For instance, I pulled off a 150+ dollar deal with user "saliho" when he first got on here, and I even simulsent with him when he had less than 20 refs because he was in Canada and I wanted to speed up the process. It went off flawlessly. A few months later, turns out he ripped a ton of people at once and got the banhammer. Mind you, our trade included things like a Judge Gaea's Cradle, foil Standstills and Counterbalance, etc. and I had no problems. But I had no idea he was a scammer. No one has a magic scammer tag implanted on their profile to let everyone know...well, at least not until AFTER they rip.
Another example - user "Xailar" ripped me and several others, despite many people pulling off trades and alterations with him and his aliases and building up a solid ref count. His art alterations were particularly appealing. However, he decided to suddenly just jack a bunch of cards that were sent to him for alters (some quite expensive - I sent him a Beta Sol Ring for alteration and I know another user send him a Japanese Sword of Fire and Ice).
You are right, if you aren't sure...don't trade. There's plenty of deals to be made with or without you (or anyone else; I'm not picking on you, honestly). However you never CAN be sure, all you can do is minimize the risk.
I've traded with a lot of posters on this thread before; I have no doubt in mind that they are trustworthy NOW and even prior to our dealings I was pretty sure I was in good hands. But not 100% sure. Still, thanks to the rating system I have been able for the most part to avoid loss of time, money and energy spent recouping it. That's worth something.
If Dresden asked me to send first on a trade or payment, no problem. Same goes for every trader over 150 iTrader (since I am near 115 at the moment). These traders or sellers are fast, professional, and have too much to lose monetarily by getting banned for ripping. However, someone with zero (ZERO!) refs wants me to send first, or simulsend? Yeah, that's not happening. Again, you may be more gifted than me at scoping out the scammers but until I gain mind reading powers (hey, anything's possible) I will stick to the rating system, which is very good/effective and in place for this very reason.
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Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
I disagree with ActionJunkie. I am a member of many other forums (computer and technology forums mostly). Every forum I have been to if you have less than about 20 feedback, you ship the item first to people with a fair amount of feedback (say 50+). This is just the way business is done. Does that mean the 50+ guy won't rip the 0 reference person off, no... but it is much less likely.
Another thing I disagree with is on the 1st page of this thread, SolonJhee said that he requests people to ship first unless they have 130+ for sales or trades. That seems borderline paranoid to me. Granted mods have to deal with stuff that would melt our face like a 1,000 mana fireball, but I still don't understand that. I have worked with mods on here to help catch scammers and have them banned...and yet if I do a deal with him I have to ship first?
anyways, probably a bad time for me to write on the internet..it has been a crazy day where the local game store owner and I had some issues.
my personal view is:
if they have 20-30 evals with no negatives, we can simulsend in trade. (assuming trades are less than $50)
if I want to purchase cards, I pay first unless they have 20+ all positive evals.
I had to ship first to people when I started, up until about 25 evals..so that is what I gauge it on
Another thing I don't agree with is that refs are built solely on itrader evals. I have 1600+ all positive reviews on "that auction site", but it doesn't mean a damn thing here.
Er...what? I fail to see how smart business practice is "scary" (also, what's with the quotations on everything dude?).
You say personally you would be insulted if someone asked you to send first...why? You have no refs. Why would they take an additional risk when they have earned their references? Also, take a look at the BTR threads. It IS quite hard to pick out the scammers. Sometimes they seem reputable but you never know when they will rip.
For instance, I pulled off a 150+ dollar deal with user "saliho" when he first got on here, and I even simulsent with him when he had less than 20 refs because he was in Canada and I wanted to speed up the process. It went off flawlessly. A few months later, turns out he ripped a ton of people at once and got the banhammer. Mind you, our trade included things like a Judge Gaea's Cradle, foil Standstills and Counterbalance, etc. and I had no problems. But I had no idea he was a scammer. No one has a magic scammer tag implanted on their profile to let everyone know...well, at least not until AFTER they rip.
Another example - user "Xailar" ripped me and several others, despite many people pulling off trades and alterations with him and his aliases and building up a solid ref count. His art alterations were particularly appealing. However, he decided to suddenly just jack a bunch of cards that were sent to him for alters (some quite expensive - I sent him a Beta Sol Ring for alteration and I know another user send him a Japanese Sword of Fire and Ice).
You are right, if you aren't sure...don't trade. There's plenty of deals to be made with or without you (or anyone else; I'm not picking on you, honestly). However you never CAN be sure, all you can do is minimize the risk.
I've traded with a lot of posters on this thread before; I have no doubt in mind that they are trustworthy NOW and even prior to our dealings I was pretty sure I was in good hands. But not 100% sure. Still, thanks to the rating system I have been able for the most part to avoid loss of time, money and energy spent recouping it. That's worth something.
If Dresden asked me to send first on a trade or payment, no problem. Same goes for every trader over 150 iTrader (since I am near 115 at the moment). These traders or sellers are fast, professional, and have too much to lose monetarily by getting banned for ripping. However, someone with zero (ZERO!) refs wants me to send first, or simulsend? Yeah, that's not happening. Again, you may be more gifted than me at scoping out the scammers but until I gain mind reading powers (hey, anything's possible) I will stick to the rating system, which is very good/effective and in place for this very reason.
I agree with pretty much everything Vik said. I've acquired almost 100 ratings from almost 120 trades, and I'm only going to ask a few people to send first. Basically, I'm going to ask those with 25 or less feedback to send first pretty much all the time, and I feel that it's reasonable for me to ask anyone with 75 or less to send first. But most of the time, simulsend is fine because it speeds things up. I also am more likely to ask people to send first if they're international, just because I've had some issues with international trading even to Canada and England.
Xailiar ripped me as well - he first did an altered Goblin Guide (which was really awesome) then I sent it back to be fully extended, and he ended up stealing it as well as about $60 worth of other stuff.
I guess the bottom line is: if you aren't willing to comply with the precedents when you're starting out, don't trade here. I started trading here in October 2010. It's been less than 6 months since I built up my near-100 ref count, but I still remember my first trades, not knowing what a toploader was and having really kind users like SurrealSage agree to send first when I had absolutely no feedback. If you are going to be THAT untrusting, don't trade online. Just accept that sometimes, you're going to have to send first, and sometimes, it's righteous for you to ask that from another user as well. ActionJunkie, you have 0 feedback. Do you really think people are going to be ok with sending to a completely new trader? You can provide links to other websites, but it matters here. I know that a YouTube trader tried to pass off my trading thread as his own to rip people by saying "look how high my references are." You can only really believe feedback from here, but once you do, it's wise to follow the paths set by others.
plus, people could "become a scammer" once they find out that they need the money when they didn't before. circumstances change
and actionjunkie seems like he would be impossible to trade with and would argue vehemently against the use of anything but scg for trade and sale evaluation
Er...what? I fail to see how smart business practice is "scary" (also, what's with the quotations on everything dude?).
You say personally you would be insulted if someone asked you to send first...why? You have no refs. Why would they take an additional risk when they have earned their references? Also, take a look at the BTR threads. It IS quite hard to pick out the scammers. Sometimes they seem reputable but you never know when they will rip.
For instance, I pulled off a 150+ dollar deal with user "saliho" when he first got on here, and I even simulsent with him when he had less than 20 refs because he was in Canada and I wanted to speed up the process. It went off flawlessly. A few months later, turns out he ripped a ton of people at once and got the banhammer. Mind you, our trade included things like a Judge Gaea's Cradle, foil Standstills and Counterbalance, etc. and I had no problems. But I had no idea he was a scammer. No one has a magic scammer tag implanted on their profile to let everyone know...well, at least not until AFTER they rip.
In the times I communicated with Saliho, he seemed extremely shady. He was extremely unfriendly and always tried to lowball. Maybe it's just me, but after the first interaction with him I decided to stay the hell away from ever dealing with him.
I think maybe you might be too trusting, I remember you did simulsend with me for a $140 trade when I had like 10 refs.
In the times I communicated with Saliho, he seemed extremely shady. He was extremely unfriendly and always tried to lowball. Maybe it's just me, but after the first interaction with him I decided to stay the hell away from ever dealing with him.
I think maybe you might be too trusting, I remember you did simulsend with me for a $140 trade when I had like 10 refs.
Off topic: regarding Saliho, it was his/her attempt at posting in every trade/sales thread in such a short time that made me wary. I was in the market for Jace 2.0 and got a msg from Saliho that two were available but when I responded asking how much shipping from Canada is with registered mail I got a response that it was already sold.
On topic: I don't trade as much as I did last year but when I did, I respected refs and made sure I dealt with traders with refs and length of time (also looking at their detailed refs help to, which users gave them feedback, and when the feedback was left). Also I have good views of the traders that offered to simul-send when I had little or no refs and usually leads to additional trades due to "goodwill."
As for buying, I use paypal (goods) but I don't mind asking sellers to send first if they have 0 refs and a sales thread is their first post. Usually their response determines if I buy or not. If they are willing then I have no problems. If they are not then I prefer not to buy from them.
It's not a flawless system but hey it works for me.
In the times I communicated with Saliho, he seemed extremely shady. He was extremely unfriendly and always tried to lowball. Maybe it's just me, but after the first interaction with him I decided to stay the hell away from ever dealing with him.
This. Around Thanksgiving I posted up a sales thread to make money for a family trip, and he responded by saying he'd buy a bunch of stuff. He then sent me a figure he came to for what he wanted to buy, and it was seriously 30% off from what the total would have been. I explained that the prices I set were firm and unlikely to change (and stated that in the thread itself), because they were very competitively priced, and he fired back that he was doing me a favor by taking that stuff off of my hands for the prices he suggested, and that I wouldn't be able to sell it otherwise. I had a goal of $500, and I met that in 10 days without selling anything to him...and then he got banned for ripping. Seems fair.
I don't understand how anyone could possibly agree to sell something and send the item without receiving payment first. I'm definitely willing to send first in a trade if the circumstances are correct, even after trading online for 15 years, but selling a card and sending it before I receive payment just seems so...wrong. I guess if people are willing to do that, great, but it's not something I would ever do except maybe with Josh or 'Slinga, since I have dealt with both of them countless times.
Well, this seems very relevant to me all of a sudden. I've been trying to build my reputation on this site as quickly as possible, since I find great enjoyment in having access to card pools outside those of my friends and my LGS.
I finally put up a sales thread of my own because I am short on money, will likely continue to be until I trade my three part-time jobs for a quality full-time one, and wanted to see if I could hook some people up with cards they might need that I was not using at the moment.
I feel like I have already dealt with some of the best people that this site has to offer, and I've never run into any sort of issue. For the first time (very recently), I was asked to send first in what would be a sale of $96 worth of cards. That might not mean much to some of you, but to me that's an awful lot from my list. It bears mentioning that this person has 50+ more references than I do, but is it bad that I feel very uncomfortable sending nearly $100 of cards in the mail (from a sales thread, no less) to someone that I've never had dealings with before? I could certainly use the money, but I'm not sure what to do in this situation.
I've sent first in a number of trade situations, and if you want to know whether or not I'm a reliable person, you'd have to ask none other than the best on the site, jlm02a3094, with whom I have multiple transactions seemingly at all times :). I have to echo the sentiments of some others in this thread and say that it seems wrong to send first on sales provided you have any sort of reputation at all.
Hrm- how come sending (money) first is always acceptable but sending (cards) first isn't? It's really a pretty curious phenomenon from my pov When dealing with somebody who hasn't yet proved their reputation, I would send neither money (unless backed by cc) nor cards first, it's a risk either way, and cards = money for me.
P.S. Given you're in the same state though, I'd send you payment first, Juicy_J ^^
Hrm- how come sending (money) first is always acceptable but sending (cards) first isn't? It's really a pretty curious phenomenon from my pov When dealing with somebody who hasn't yet proved their reputation, I would send neither money (unless backed by cc) nor cards first, it's a risk either way, and cards = money for me.
P.S. Given you're in the same state though, I'd send you payment first, Juicy_J ^^
@Dresden:
I agree with you but I think it's due to paypal protection.
If you pay via paypal (goods) it provides protection against not receiving items.
@Juicy_J:
Also regarding sending first and you feel uncomfortable, I would recommend 3rd party trading. I've used it before when I started out when dealing with Canada for the first time (I have never sent anything to Canada before/ bought cards off ebay from Canadian vendors but never mailed anything to Canada). You pay a small fee but again it provides you peace of mind.
We're currently in the process of discussing a trade (and this has nothing to do with that trade process haha) and you mentioned this thread so I figure I would chime in my 2c.
When it comes to buying/selling cards, I'm a business man, I'm in sales / support for massive digital x-ray systems. Its pay first, and then we order it for you and install it. Just how it is (its actually 50/50 for order and system live date but same difference, we don't flip the switch until paid). You're buying goods, so you pay for them, and they're shipped to you. If you would prefer cards first by all means, suggest it, but I know that I personally would never ship unless paid, and that is just my rule with selling cards. Others might be different but I view that as a real world type scenario. I also refuse to let people pay as "gift" in PayPal because it drops their level of protection. What if they pay gift and USPS loses the mail? Even if I've insured it we're out a piece in the paper-trail process that USPS can use to weasel out of paying me back. Its just not good business.
Trading is an entirely different ballgame. Simul-send makes sense to me and always has, regardless of website, but that is just me. We're both putting goods out on the line and we both have investments to lose. The refs thing for me is a decent bar setter, but it is far from an equalizer. Someone could easily rack up 80+ refs by trading common playsets and low value rares for a year. All of a sudden they're involved in a $500+ dollar trade for Legacy staples and could just decide they don't care and keep them. I'm not saying that anyone would do that here but as has been mentioned before, situations change.
Simul-send is a crapshoot anyway. Three times this week I've had people agree to simul-send with me then drop the "Oh man I'm so sorry I've been so busy my dog died when it ate my leftovers that I didn't eat because I was ill from taking care of my sick grandma while at college doing all my homework" type excuses on the back end of "Hey I just got your cards in the mail!"
Personally I think that you should just require DC / tracking, and if it is a huge deal to the person with high refs they should just ship the next day once the lower ref person can verify their shipment with tracking numbers, etc. - I know for my first few trades here I also took pics of the cards before I sent them saying "Here is your cards, they're out in the mail now!" or something to that nature to let them know I wasn't trying to pull a fast one. It sucks that people would scam people, but holding refs as the end-all of trading online over someone creates a barrier of entry to would-be traders that could probably add a lot of decent value/cards to the site.
I've been pretty lucky so far with quite nice people willing to work deals out with me (a few of them have posted in this thread), but I also credit the fact that I've been around the internet block a few times and know what I'm doing / what to look out for.
@Telekinesis - Yeah, I'm fairly trusting but I do my homework. I always do ref checks with people I've never dealt with, and unless I have reason to believe something is off I am usually cool with simulsend. Hey, you didn't rip me, right? ;-)
Honestly I always check with Josh (jlm02a3094) if I have a question about a user, as his opinions are usually quite good and grounded in previous dealings - since he's dealt with, well, everybody lol.
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My Trade Thread | Member of House Dimir, where hopes and dreams become death and corruption. Won't you join us?
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
I just basically wanted to throw my hat in the ring on this one. I see cards and cash/ sales and trades to be the same thing. If I am purchasing an item from a 0-ref user, I frankly can not see how they would expect me to just throw my cash out into cyberspace with no assurance of a good ending. I think it is only fair for them to send first. It is exactly the same as a trade in my opinion as MTG cards have real and easily definable value.
Thanks for all the trades to everyone who has posted in this thread lol.
In summation.....Star Trek wins a prolonged naval battle against superior, yet less technologically advanced, numbers, with Picard leading the assault, while Kirk takes your soul by laying out Solo and probably his manservant Chewy as well, before impregnating and ditching your Princess.
I just basically wanted to throw my hat in the ring on this one. I see cards and cash/ sales and trades to be the same thing. If I am purchasing an item from a 0-ref user, I frankly can not see how they would expect me to just throw my cash out into cyberspace with no assurance of a good ending. I think it is only fair for them to send first. It is exactly the same as a trade in my opinion as MTG cards have real and easily definable value.
Thanks for all the trades to everyone who has posted in this thread lol.
The problem with that logic is that, as a buyer paying first, you have protection. Especially if you pay via PayPal, and do it correctly (non gift, actual goods purchased).
PayPal will step up for buyers when you file a claim against a seller, they and eBay took a very buyer-centric stance last year (not that its a bad thing).
If the seller ships first and you don't pay there is generally a very small paper trail and very little actual recourse. You could file a mail fraud claim (if it ever gets answered), but your honest course of action is an attempt at small claims and that's probably going nowhere.
Now, I have no problem with people saying "If they want me to pay first we're not dealing," that is completely your right, especially with the level of refs a lot of you have acquired. That does however create a major barrier to entry in the market for people coming to sell.
They can pick here, have to ship first, have near zero protection, etc. etc. - or just go to ebay, pay some fees and let another company take a percentage but have at least some semi-assurance you're going to get paid.
With trades I totally see the "you first" philosophy. With sales its cash for goods, and I wouldn't put myself out on it. Now, that all being said, I've only done two "sales" on this site and they both turned into trades mid-way through.
I don't mind sending first if the person has more refs than me. But if we are close in the amount of refs, simul send is the way to go. Actually i think that if a person has a moderatly amount of refs, simul send should be fair. I have nothing against sending first as i said, but it shows trust. Anyways, i always trade with alterers of late, so i always send first so they can get my cards and alter them xP.
I believe the person with lower refs sends first. That is the way I trade, that means on this site, I generally send first. If the other party has more refs, but wants to send same time, that's fine with me, but when I have more, then send first.
On another site I trade on, I have 380 refs, and I only send same time to users I have had more than three trades and have known for at least a year.
For buying and selling, I do not use Paypal, so I do not have the luxury of paypal. Don't ask why, I am not talking about it.
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However, FPS is right, time is really important. Amount of refs, not so much. I feel more comfortable with doing a deal with someone with around 100 refs and 5 years invested than 100 refs and 6 months invested.
I thought I had actually been burned a couple times, but it never really happened. Heck I recieved a package from a user that had been banned for ripping (not my BTR either) almost three months after the fact with an apology attached.
Adrian crapped out on me once and I had to open a btr to get him to send. Got a bunch of angry pms from him saying I should have pm'ed him first, yet I did 5 times over a month time frame.
Someone with 100+ refs telling me I had to send first would also make me fall out of my chair laughing.
As for the time issue, i mean, if you're looking to get cards for this week's FNM or GP or PT or w/e, you should either A. learn to plan ahead of time if you wanna acquire them via online trading or B. don't even trouble yourself or those you wish to engage a trade with, only serves to show how selfish you are by forcing people into an option they may not be comfortable with. If you just don't wanna wait too long for your cards, learn patience. Honestly, we're here so that we don't have to pay for cards/find cards other stores do not have and/or get those cards cheaper than online stores sell them for. Sure it'll probably take longer compared to buying from an online store/vendor, but at least you're going to get it (more often than not anyway). Can't have the best of both worlds in online trading ya know, and if you do, you're probably living in fantasy-land =D
People have to remember, barring individuals with the means to ship via UPS/FedEx/DHL/whatever on each of their trades, the rest of us are normal people. We use USPS to ship stuff due to cost (cheap in comparison), so it is going to take some time, and more often than not longer than the specialized shipping services as previously stated, so again, learn some patience.
If that doesn't work for you, build up your rep here, stay trustworthy, and have people you don't trust send first to ya.
# of refs doesn't matter to me.
I guess I just don't care enough to protect myself from being ripped.
ゆっくりしていってね!!!
Amen, maybe not past 20, but there should be a point where it doesn't matter. I distinctly remember some few people making it difficult for me back when I first started even when I passed 30 due to some minor small diff in refs...funny b/c I usually surpassed them in refs by the time my cards arrived.
Yeah that usually works, I guess I'm just surprised when the answer is no, doh! ^^ Like Telekinesis said, I find it humorous when someone with zero refs puts up a sale and sales "You pay first". I guess the prevailing thought is like dyzzy said, "payment before shipment because that just makes sense (you're not gonna order something from a store and expect them to send it to you before you pay them are you?)", but when you buy from a store it's not from a random anonymous person online with no address and no BBB to complain to
Personally, I would be insulted if someone asked me to "send first" then I would reply with hell no and move on.
I've done zero trading here but have lots of experience with other "collectible cards" value in the $25-$500 range and every single time we sent cards at the same time. It's really not that hard to pick out the "scammers"... if you aren't sure, then don't trade -that's way more risk free than complicated time-consuming rules.
I can't be the only one this community has scared off. You guys still seem to be thriving so it's probably not a "huge" issue but there's some food for thought...
I collect Knowledge Pools!
People will only request you to send first if you have very little or no feedback. What's wrong with this? No one wants to get ripped off, and if you're a new trader you just have to deal with this because there's no way for everyone else to know whether or not you'll actually come through on the trade. If someone has 35 references with 100% feedback, it's a pretty safe bet they aren't going to rip you off. If you have 0 trades, expect to send first. The guy on the other end with 100 trades under his belt is going to be reliable, no one who has bothered to acquire so many feedback points would risk losing their credibility just to get ahead on a few cards.
UR [PRIMER] Flash of the Firemind (Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind) RU
BG Death and Staxes: FireStorm4056's Competitive Meren Stax List GB
W Avacyn Angel of Hope W
R Akroma, Angel of (Your Opponent's) Fury R
R 99-Mountain Ashling R
You say personally you would be insulted if someone asked you to send first...why? You have no refs. Why would they take an additional risk when they have earned their references? Also, take a look at the BTR threads. It IS quite hard to pick out the scammers. Sometimes they seem reputable but you never know when they will rip.
For instance, I pulled off a 150+ dollar deal with user "saliho" when he first got on here, and I even simulsent with him when he had less than 20 refs because he was in Canada and I wanted to speed up the process. It went off flawlessly. A few months later, turns out he ripped a ton of people at once and got the banhammer. Mind you, our trade included things like a Judge Gaea's Cradle, foil Standstills and Counterbalance, etc. and I had no problems. But I had no idea he was a scammer. No one has a magic scammer tag implanted on their profile to let everyone know...well, at least not until AFTER they rip.
Another example - user "Xailar" ripped me and several others, despite many people pulling off trades and alterations with him and his aliases and building up a solid ref count. His art alterations were particularly appealing. However, he decided to suddenly just jack a bunch of cards that were sent to him for alters (some quite expensive - I sent him a Beta Sol Ring for alteration and I know another user send him a Japanese Sword of Fire and Ice).
You are right, if you aren't sure...don't trade. There's plenty of deals to be made with or without you (or anyone else; I'm not picking on you, honestly). However you never CAN be sure, all you can do is minimize the risk.
I've traded with a lot of posters on this thread before; I have no doubt in mind that they are trustworthy NOW and even prior to our dealings I was pretty sure I was in good hands. But not 100% sure. Still, thanks to the rating system I have been able for the most part to avoid loss of time, money and energy spent recouping it. That's worth something.
If Dresden asked me to send first on a trade or payment, no problem. Same goes for every trader over 150 iTrader (since I am near 115 at the moment). These traders or sellers are fast, professional, and have too much to lose monetarily by getting banned for ripping. However, someone with zero (ZERO!) refs wants me to send first, or simulsend? Yeah, that's not happening. Again, you may be more gifted than me at scoping out the scammers but until I gain mind reading powers (hey, anything's possible) I will stick to the rating system, which is very good/effective and in place for this very reason.
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Another thing I disagree with is on the 1st page of this thread, SolonJhee said that he requests people to ship first unless they have 130+ for sales or trades. That seems borderline paranoid to me. Granted mods have to deal with stuff that would melt our face like a 1,000 mana fireball, but I still don't understand that. I have worked with mods on here to help catch scammers and have them banned...and yet if I do a deal with him I have to ship first?
anyways, probably a bad time for me to write on the internet..it has been a crazy day where the local game store owner and I had some issues.
my personal view is:
if they have 20-30 evals with no negatives, we can simulsend in trade. (assuming trades are less than $50)
if I want to purchase cards, I pay first unless they have 20+ all positive evals.
I had to ship first to people when I started, up until about 25 evals..so that is what I gauge it on
Another thing I don't agree with is that refs are built solely on itrader evals. I have 1600+ all positive reviews on "that auction site", but it doesn't mean a damn thing here.
I agree with pretty much everything Vik said. I've acquired almost 100 ratings from almost 120 trades, and I'm only going to ask a few people to send first. Basically, I'm going to ask those with 25 or less feedback to send first pretty much all the time, and I feel that it's reasonable for me to ask anyone with 75 or less to send first. But most of the time, simulsend is fine because it speeds things up. I also am more likely to ask people to send first if they're international, just because I've had some issues with international trading even to Canada and England.
Xailiar ripped me as well - he first did an altered Goblin Guide (which was really awesome) then I sent it back to be fully extended, and he ended up stealing it as well as about $60 worth of other stuff.
I guess the bottom line is: if you aren't willing to comply with the precedents when you're starting out, don't trade here. I started trading here in October 2010. It's been less than 6 months since I built up my near-100 ref count, but I still remember my first trades, not knowing what a toploader was and having really kind users like SurrealSage agree to send first when I had absolutely no feedback. If you are going to be THAT untrusting, don't trade online. Just accept that sometimes, you're going to have to send first, and sometimes, it's righteous for you to ask that from another user as well. ActionJunkie, you have 0 feedback. Do you really think people are going to be ok with sending to a completely new trader? You can provide links to other websites, but it matters here. I know that a YouTube trader tried to pass off my trading thread as his own to rip people by saying "look how high my references are." You can only really believe feedback from here, but once you do, it's wise to follow the paths set by others.
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
and actionjunkie seems like he would be impossible to trade with and would argue vehemently against the use of anything but scg for trade and sale evaluation
I collect Knowledge Pools!
In the times I communicated with Saliho, he seemed extremely shady. He was extremely unfriendly and always tried to lowball. Maybe it's just me, but after the first interaction with him I decided to stay the hell away from ever dealing with him.
I think maybe you might be too trusting, I remember you did simulsend with me for a $140 trade when I had like 10 refs.
Commander/EDH:
WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator WU
GW Saffi Eriksdotter GW
BW Selenia, Dark Angel BW
W Heliod, God of Sun W
Retired:
Jenara, Asura of War Thada Adel, Acquisitor Jaya Ballard, Task Mage Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero Lyzolda, the Blood Witch Akroma, Angel of Wrath Nath of the Gilt-Leaf Tajic, Blade of the Legion Selvala, Explorer Returned Maga, Traitor to Mortals
Tiny Leaders:
W Mangara of Corondor W
Off topic: regarding Saliho, it was his/her attempt at posting in every trade/sales thread in such a short time that made me wary. I was in the market for Jace 2.0 and got a msg from Saliho that two were available but when I responded asking how much shipping from Canada is with registered mail I got a response that it was already sold.
On topic: I don't trade as much as I did last year but when I did, I respected refs and made sure I dealt with traders with refs and length of time (also looking at their detailed refs help to, which users gave them feedback, and when the feedback was left). Also I have good views of the traders that offered to simul-send when I had little or no refs and usually leads to additional trades due to "goodwill."
As for buying, I use paypal (goods) but I don't mind asking sellers to send first if they have 0 refs and a sales thread is their first post. Usually their response determines if I buy or not. If they are willing then I have no problems. If they are not then I prefer not to buy from them.
It's not a flawless system but hey it works for me.
This awesome signature is by Bookworm10.
Goodbye Gutter!
This. Around Thanksgiving I posted up a sales thread to make money for a family trip, and he responded by saying he'd buy a bunch of stuff. He then sent me a figure he came to for what he wanted to buy, and it was seriously 30% off from what the total would have been. I explained that the prices I set were firm and unlikely to change (and stated that in the thread itself), because they were very competitively priced, and he fired back that he was doing me a favor by taking that stuff off of my hands for the prices he suggested, and that I wouldn't be able to sell it otherwise. I had a goal of $500, and I met that in 10 days without selling anything to him...and then he got banned for ripping. Seems fair.
I don't understand how anyone could possibly agree to sell something and send the item without receiving payment first. I'm definitely willing to send first in a trade if the circumstances are correct, even after trading online for 15 years, but selling a card and sending it before I receive payment just seems so...wrong. I guess if people are willing to do that, great, but it's not something I would ever do except maybe with Josh or 'Slinga, since I have dealt with both of them countless times.
I finally put up a sales thread of my own because I am short on money, will likely continue to be until I trade my three part-time jobs for a quality full-time one, and wanted to see if I could hook some people up with cards they might need that I was not using at the moment.
I feel like I have already dealt with some of the best people that this site has to offer, and I've never run into any sort of issue. For the first time (very recently), I was asked to send first in what would be a sale of $96 worth of cards. That might not mean much to some of you, but to me that's an awful lot from my list. It bears mentioning that this person has 50+ more references than I do, but is it bad that I feel very uncomfortable sending nearly $100 of cards in the mail (from a sales thread, no less) to someone that I've never had dealings with before? I could certainly use the money, but I'm not sure what to do in this situation.
I've sent first in a number of trade situations, and if you want to know whether or not I'm a reliable person, you'd have to ask none other than the best on the site, jlm02a3094, with whom I have multiple transactions seemingly at all times :). I have to echo the sentiments of some others in this thread and say that it seems wrong to send first on sales provided you have any sort of reputation at all.
P.S. Given you're in the same state though, I'd send you payment first, Juicy_J ^^
@Dresden:
I agree with you but I think it's due to paypal protection.
If you pay via paypal (goods) it provides protection against not receiving items.
@Juicy_J:
Also regarding sending first and you feel uncomfortable, I would recommend 3rd party trading. I've used it before when I started out when dealing with Canada for the first time (I have never sent anything to Canada before/ bought cards off ebay from Canadian vendors but never mailed anything to Canada). You pay a small fee but again it provides you peace of mind.
This awesome signature is by Bookworm10.
Goodbye Gutter!
When it comes to buying/selling cards, I'm a business man, I'm in sales / support for massive digital x-ray systems. Its pay first, and then we order it for you and install it. Just how it is (its actually 50/50 for order and system live date but same difference, we don't flip the switch until paid). You're buying goods, so you pay for them, and they're shipped to you. If you would prefer cards first by all means, suggest it, but I know that I personally would never ship unless paid, and that is just my rule with selling cards. Others might be different but I view that as a real world type scenario. I also refuse to let people pay as "gift" in PayPal because it drops their level of protection. What if they pay gift and USPS loses the mail? Even if I've insured it we're out a piece in the paper-trail process that USPS can use to weasel out of paying me back. Its just not good business.
Trading is an entirely different ballgame. Simul-send makes sense to me and always has, regardless of website, but that is just me. We're both putting goods out on the line and we both have investments to lose. The refs thing for me is a decent bar setter, but it is far from an equalizer. Someone could easily rack up 80+ refs by trading common playsets and low value rares for a year. All of a sudden they're involved in a $500+ dollar trade for Legacy staples and could just decide they don't care and keep them. I'm not saying that anyone would do that here but as has been mentioned before, situations change.
Simul-send is a crapshoot anyway. Three times this week I've had people agree to simul-send with me then drop the "Oh man I'm so sorry I've been so busy my dog died when it ate my leftovers that I didn't eat because I was ill from taking care of my sick grandma while at college doing all my homework" type excuses on the back end of "Hey I just got your cards in the mail!"
Personally I think that you should just require DC / tracking, and if it is a huge deal to the person with high refs they should just ship the next day once the lower ref person can verify their shipment with tracking numbers, etc. - I know for my first few trades here I also took pics of the cards before I sent them saying "Here is your cards, they're out in the mail now!" or something to that nature to let them know I wasn't trying to pull a fast one. It sucks that people would scam people, but holding refs as the end-all of trading online over someone creates a barrier of entry to would-be traders that could probably add a lot of decent value/cards to the site.
I've been pretty lucky so far with quite nice people willing to work deals out with me (a few of them have posted in this thread), but I also credit the fact that I've been around the internet block a few times and know what I'm doing / what to look out for.
Washington State University Alumni
Legacy
GWR Enchantress RWG
UUU Omni/Enter UUU
GUBW Lands WBUG
R4G Belcher G4R
GUW Bant WUG
Trade Thread
Honestly I always check with Josh (jlm02a3094) if I have a question about a user, as his opinions are usually quite good and grounded in previous dealings - since he's dealt with, well, everybody lol.
Currently playing:
Vintage - Meandeck MUD
Legacy - Death and TaxesW, Team AmericaBUG, GSZ ZooGRW, TES, JunkBGW, Blue MUDU
Extended - BantUGW
Standard - Big RedR, UB ControlBU, Eldrazi GreenG
EDH/Commander - Thrun, the Last TrollG, Gwendolyn Di CorciBUR, Venser, Shaper SavantU
Thanks for all the trades to everyone who has posted in this thread lol.
The problem with that logic is that, as a buyer paying first, you have protection. Especially if you pay via PayPal, and do it correctly (non gift, actual goods purchased).
PayPal will step up for buyers when you file a claim against a seller, they and eBay took a very buyer-centric stance last year (not that its a bad thing).
If the seller ships first and you don't pay there is generally a very small paper trail and very little actual recourse. You could file a mail fraud claim (if it ever gets answered), but your honest course of action is an attempt at small claims and that's probably going nowhere.
Now, I have no problem with people saying "If they want me to pay first we're not dealing," that is completely your right, especially with the level of refs a lot of you have acquired. That does however create a major barrier to entry in the market for people coming to sell.
They can pick here, have to ship first, have near zero protection, etc. etc. - or just go to ebay, pay some fees and let another company take a percentage but have at least some semi-assurance you're going to get paid.
With trades I totally see the "you first" philosophy. With sales its cash for goods, and I wouldn't put myself out on it. Now, that all being said, I've only done two "sales" on this site and they both turned into trades mid-way through.
Washington State University Alumni
Legacy
GWR Enchantress RWG
UUU Omni/Enter UUU
GUBW Lands WBUG
R4G Belcher G4R
GUW Bant WUG
Trade Thread
On another site I trade on, I have 380 refs, and I only send same time to users I have had more than three trades and have known for at least a year.
For buying and selling, I do not use Paypal, so I do not have the luxury of paypal. Don't ask why, I am not talking about it.