I understand gorgons being black, usually pursuing their own motives and using dark spells/natural abilities to slay enemies, but what about them is green? (More specifically: Vraska)
I use the Duels Of The Planeswalkers layout, though I'm right-handed and keep my deck and GY to the left. I dare you to ask me how tempting it is to hold flying creatures in a floating pattern over the table.
I understand gorgons being black, usually pursuing their own motives and using dark spells/natural abilities to slay enemies, but what about them is green? (More specifically: Vraska)
For Vraska specifically, it's her ability to destroy non-living material. The green Gorgons are mostly Golgari...and errr...Damia.
For Vraska specifically, it's her ability to destroy non-living material. The green Gorgons are mostly Golgari...and errr...Damia.
Okay... But what about her character/personality makes her green? :/ I get the pseudo deathtouch and noncreature destruction are green abilities, but why is SHE green?
I use the Duels Of The Planeswalkers layout, though I'm right-handed and keep my deck and GY to the left. I dare you to ask me how tempting it is to hold flying creatures in a floating pattern over the table.
Okay... But what about her character/personality makes her green? :/ I get the pseudo deathtouch and noncreature destruction are green abilities, but why is SHE green?
Her personality is pretty much exclusively black. The only reason her card is green is because she has green abilities and is formerly Golgari.
Okay... But what about her character/personality makes her green? :/ I get the pseudo deathtouch and noncreature destruction are green abilities, but why is SHE green?
At least in Ravnica: City of Guilds, Golgari Gorgons were Teratogens. Although the term was never fully fleshed, teratogen literally means "warped growth/life". So at least in the Golgari, Gorgons are very primal, very animalistic life forms ("green" human/snake hybrid) that have been "warped" (presumably through the presence of black mana).
At least in Ravnica: City of Guilds, Golgari Gorgons were Teratogens. Although the term was never fully fleshed, teratogen literally means "warped growth/life". So at least in the Golgari, Gorgons are very primal, very animalistic life forms ("green" human/snake hybrid) that have been "warped" (presumably through the presence of black mana).
Despite the fact that her primary goal and means are black, she does still hold the entire golgari "life and death cycle" close to her heart.
As to gorgons in general, they really aren't green that often. It's a big outlier really.
Gorgons were originally animalistic deities in mythology, so they by nature (hurr hurr) are somewhat associated with Green concepts.
In MTG, most gorgons are indeed Black because of their witch-like nature, but Golgari gorgons tend to sincerily apreciate the larger cycles.
As for Vraska specifically, remember that her original motivation was a twisted sense of justice. That's normally White, but it can overlap with Green.
Most green Gorgons (and gorgon-related spells) come from Ravnica, where they are associated with the Golgari guild. Similarly, there are also lots of part-white Sphinxes and part-red Angels and so forth. Guild allegiances affect color combinations of typically mono-colored creature types.
Vraska's philosophy deals with the inevitability of death and punishing those who meddle with the lives of others, which are both green concepts. Green is a color that believes strongly in predestination and wants everything to pursue the role that it's meant to fulfill in life. Predators are born to hunt prey, and prey is born to be hunted by predators. All things are born, act out their role, then die, which also serves a purpose in the larger scheme. People who want to control and manipulate others, and who pay more attention to their artificial agendas than to the emergent, eternal patterns of life, are prime targets for punishment and retribution in the eyes of Vraska and her followers. And her having a personal grudge against you doesn't hurt either; she's still black, too, after all. Overall, she has green (mostly) motives and acts on them with black methods.
The ability to petrify enemy combatants is traditionally Green, as established in Alpha: Thicket Basilisk and Cockatrice. The first time we saw the ability in Black was in Legends in the form of Infernal Medusa.
All Basilisks in existence are Green. Of the 11 that currently exist, 10 are mono Green (Rock Basilisk is the exception).
There are two reasons. One, tradition. We got a Green-Black gorgon in the original Ravnica set, so we get more in this block. There was also Damia, Sage of Stone during the intervening time period.
Second, Deathtouch and other "kill without lethal damage" effects have had a tradition of being both Black and Green. Since the whole petrifying gaze thing is the defining trait of gorgons, it makes sense to place them in those two colors.
It seems like Gorgons are always Black, but bleed into Green more than any other color.
Gorgons have snakes for hair. Is there anything more green than that?
yes there is, and snakes are secondary in black. they probably could have gone without making gorgons green, but i think its kind of cool to start giving enemy colors a classic creature identity (weirds in UR, for example)
I know this thread is about gorgons, but I reckon it shouldn't hurt to mention that death by petrification has occasionally been associated with green. We have Cockatrice and several Basilisks, all of which are know to cause death by petrifications.
My question would be how petrification translates into green. Green is all about nature; Deathtouch in green makes sense due to the amount of poison, but at the same time, some deathtouchs in green are dealt with petrifications. My most warped guess would be that turning something to stone turns it into a natural object (rocks), but that feels rather weird. We need more info on this.
I think you people shouldnt assume that members of a guild automatically come with some sort of a split personality. Otherwise the Orzhov would be a church of insanity akin to a Rakdos pleasure house.
I think what they really did right with Vraska is give her a black personality that fits within the Golgari guild. People always look at Golgari and see their function, their way of life, but not their ideals. They are always seens as the cute garbage men, but Vraska gave them a lot more menacing look. They like people dead more than they like them alive, and therefore can be real dark murderers, while justifying it to their green side because ''life as a cycle never ends''.
Um. Svogthos, eternal secret necromancer guildmaster of the Golgari. Jarad, CURRENT necromancer guildmaster of the Golgari. Zombies. Savra. Golgari sisters. At what point did anyone ever see them as "cute garbage men"?
A lot of the Ravnican citizens I would assume avoid the Golgari if not because they're "dirty", but because a lot of their guildmembers EAT other Ravnican citizens.
@magac: I think you're absolutely right. Gorgons seem to have very clear black goals and motivations, but mechanically, the whole petrification thing has always been clearly Green.
It's a lot like asking why Spiders or Fungus are found in Green as well. Spiders have an argument going for them since they represent the predator nature of Green, but Fungus types are clearly decompositional and focus primarily on the Black aspect of the life cycle. Gorgons can exist as part Green b/c the effect flavour is Green.
Snakes are Black and Green creatures. Petrifying is Green theme. Predation is a Green and Black overlap.
Gorgons are predators akin to spiders and snakes. They commonly lurk in their lair and kill it's victims. This is green sort of murderous behavior because, since the predator is not actively hunting down people outside of it's habitat, his not disturbing nature's balance.
Gorgons have a green splash because they are nest predators something very green.
Guys, I know this has been a fairly healthy topic, but, to be honest, the green gorgons are pretty much ALL exclusively in Ravnica, with the only exception being Damia, who is really disqualified on the fact she was MADE to be a wedge based legend.
Guys, I know this has been a fairly healthy topic, but, to be honest, the green gorgons are pretty much ALL exclusively in Ravnica, with the only exception being Damia, who is really disqualified on the fact she was MADE to be a wedge based legend.
Too true. I keep forgetting that this is the case.
But for some perspective, that is a third of the entire population of gorgons available to us.
Even so, the OP did mention that he/she noticed that gorgons were primarily Black and asked what part of them was Green. Unfortunately, it does look a lot like a case of grandfathered flavour from Ravnica rather than any real reason.
I guess the real question should be: Why did they make Gorgons the iconic Golgari creature back in Ravnica? My guess points toward magac's petrification idea. Otherwise, we'd get a fungus or a spider.
Did they?
The only gorgons back then were the sisters.
Niv-Mizzet was also the only Izzet dragon and only one of three represented on cards for the entire plane, but it would to deny that Niv wasn't the iconic creature for the Izzet if only for the privilege afforded to guildmasters.
After all, when choosing to fill the guildmaster slots, I'm sure Creative wanted to evoke of the most iconic creature types to lead each guild. This principle can be seen in the Gruul cyclops, Borborygmos; the Rakdos demon, Rakdos; and the Dimir vampire, Szadek.
Guys, I know this has been a fairly healthy topic, but, to be honest, the green gorgons are pretty much ALL exclusively in Ravnica, with the only exception being Damia, who is really disqualified on the fact she was MADE to be a wedge based legend.
True but Ravnica is a multicolor block and one thing that multicolor, specially dual color, cards do is highlight the overlap or alliances between 2 colors. Ravnica is a place for insight in the whole dual color theme because it is down-top block. It's different from Innistrad were colors try to adapt to the top-down themes and not the opposite (so blue zombies and red vampires is not a over arcing mtg thing).
They could have, for example, placed Gorgons in the Rakdos, Dimir or Orzhov guild, but that would feel very wrong. Gorgons fits better then any combination, meaning there's some secret green splash in gorgons even if green have never showed up outside Ravnica.
The same works for demons. Those are exclusively black but in a multicolor blocks there's a higher chance to see demons then any other black pair.
In shorter thermes i believe we can see Ravnica themes as overarcing things because the block is down-top and tells about the game itself.
@magac: I think you're absolutely right. Gorgons seem to have very clear black goals and motivations, but mechanically, the whole petrification thing has always been clearly Green.
Yeah, basilisks are green. And cockatrices. Well, cockatrice, since there's only one and the rest are changelings.
I guess the real question should be: Why did they make Gorgons the iconic Golgari creature back in Ravnica? My guess points toward magac's petrification idea. Otherwise, we'd get a fungus or a spider.
The fungus would lead to Mario jokes. Or magic mushroom jokes. Spiders aren't really "iconic" of green; they just exist to fill a hole that R&D created so they can exist. And the guild that most fits a lot of traditional spider motifs in myth is Dimir, who coincidentally have a spider as their signet.
I'm sure you mean red. Goblins are red because "lol stupid goblins" is the punchline to every goblin card ever.
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For Vraska specifically, it's her ability to destroy non-living material. The green Gorgons are mostly Golgari...and errr...Damia.
Okay... But what about her character/personality makes her green? :/ I get the pseudo deathtouch and noncreature destruction are green abilities, but why is SHE green?
Her personality is pretty much exclusively black. The only reason her card is green is because she has green abilities and is formerly Golgari.
At least in Ravnica: City of Guilds, Golgari Gorgons were Teratogens. Although the term was never fully fleshed, teratogen literally means "warped growth/life". So at least in the Golgari, Gorgons are very primal, very animalistic life forms ("green" human/snake hybrid) that have been "warped" (presumably through the presence of black mana).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Despite the fact that her primary goal and means are black, she does still hold the entire golgari "life and death cycle" close to her heart.
As to gorgons in general, they really aren't green that often. It's a big outlier really.
In MTG, most gorgons are indeed Black because of their witch-like nature, but Golgari gorgons tend to sincerily apreciate the larger cycles.
As for Vraska specifically, remember that her original motivation was a twisted sense of justice. That's normally White, but it can overlap with Green.
Vraska's philosophy deals with the inevitability of death and punishing those who meddle with the lives of others, which are both green concepts. Green is a color that believes strongly in predestination and wants everything to pursue the role that it's meant to fulfill in life. Predators are born to hunt prey, and prey is born to be hunted by predators. All things are born, act out their role, then die, which also serves a purpose in the larger scheme. People who want to control and manipulate others, and who pay more attention to their artificial agendas than to the emergent, eternal patterns of life, are prime targets for punishment and retribution in the eyes of Vraska and her followers. And her having a personal grudge against you doesn't hurt either; she's still black, too, after all. Overall, she has green (mostly) motives and acts on them with black methods.
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All Basilisks in existence are Green. Of the 11 that currently exist, 10 are mono Green (Rock Basilisk is the exception).
Second, Deathtouch and other "kill without lethal damage" effects have had a tradition of being both Black and Green. Since the whole petrifying gaze thing is the defining trait of gorgons, it makes sense to place them in those two colors.
It seems like Gorgons are always Black, but bleed into Green more than any other color.
Thanks to Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery Signatures!
yes there is, and snakes are secondary in black. they probably could have gone without making gorgons green, but i think its kind of cool to start giving enemy colors a classic creature identity (weirds in UR, for example)
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
My question would be how petrification translates into green. Green is all about nature; Deathtouch in green makes sense due to the amount of poison, but at the same time, some deathtouchs in green are dealt with petrifications. My most warped guess would be that turning something to stone turns it into a natural object (rocks), but that feels rather weird. We need more info on this.
Um. Svogthos, eternal secret necromancer guildmaster of the Golgari. Jarad, CURRENT necromancer guildmaster of the Golgari. Zombies. Savra. Golgari sisters. At what point did anyone ever see them as "cute garbage men"?
A lot of the Ravnican citizens I would assume avoid the Golgari if not because they're "dirty", but because a lot of their guildmembers EAT other Ravnican citizens.
@magac: I think you're absolutely right. Gorgons seem to have very clear black goals and motivations, but mechanically, the whole petrification thing has always been clearly Green.
It's a lot like asking why Spiders or Fungus are found in Green as well. Spiders have an argument going for them since they represent the predator nature of Green, but Fungus types are clearly decompositional and focus primarily on the Black aspect of the life cycle. Gorgons can exist as part Green b/c the effect flavour is Green.
Gorgons are predators akin to spiders and snakes. They commonly lurk in their lair and kill it's victims. This is green sort of murderous behavior because, since the predator is not actively hunting down people outside of it's habitat, his not disturbing nature's balance.
Gorgons have a green splash because they are nest predators something very green.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
Too true. I keep forgetting that this is the case.
But for some perspective, that is a third of the entire population of gorgons available to us.
Even so, the OP did mention that he/she noticed that gorgons were primarily Black and asked what part of them was Green. Unfortunately, it does look a lot like a case of grandfathered flavour from Ravnica rather than any real reason.
I guess the real question should be: Why did they make Gorgons the iconic Golgari creature back in Ravnica? My guess points toward magac's petrification idea. Otherwise, we'd get a fungus or a spider.
Did they?
The only gorgons back then were the sisters.
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I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
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Niv-Mizzet was also the only Izzet dragon and only one of three represented on cards for the entire plane, but it would to deny that Niv wasn't the iconic creature for the Izzet if only for the privilege afforded to guildmasters.
After all, when choosing to fill the guildmaster slots, I'm sure Creative wanted to evoke of the most iconic creature types to lead each guild. This principle can be seen in the Gruul cyclops, Borborygmos; the Rakdos demon, Rakdos; and the Dimir vampire, Szadek.
True but Ravnica is a multicolor block and one thing that multicolor, specially dual color, cards do is highlight the overlap or alliances between 2 colors. Ravnica is a place for insight in the whole dual color theme because it is down-top block. It's different from Innistrad were colors try to adapt to the top-down themes and not the opposite (so blue zombies and red vampires is not a over arcing mtg thing).
They could have, for example, placed Gorgons in the Rakdos, Dimir or Orzhov guild, but that would feel very wrong. Gorgons fits better then any combination, meaning there's some secret green splash in gorgons even if green have never showed up outside Ravnica.
The same works for demons. Those are exclusively black but in a multicolor blocks there's a higher chance to see demons then any other black pair.
In shorter thermes i believe we can see Ravnica themes as overarcing things because the block is down-top and tells about the game itself.
BGU Control
R Aggro
Standard - For Fun
BG Auras
And gorgons are only green alligned in Ravnica. Dominarian gorgons are pure black.
On Modern Masters 2:
Will be kept until 12/31/2013 to prove if Right or Wrong.Proven right 1/27/2013Tradition mostly, I figure.
They've had red and black skin plenty of times, too.
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I write flavor articles for RoxieCards.
I play and judge at Giga Bites Cafein Marietta, Georgia.
Yeah, basilisks are green. And cockatrices. Well, cockatrice, since there's only one and the rest are changelings.
The fungus would lead to Mario jokes. Or magic mushroom jokes. Spiders aren't really "iconic" of green; they just exist to fill a hole that R&D created so they can exist. And the guild that most fits a lot of traditional spider motifs in myth is Dimir, who coincidentally have a spider as their signet.
I'm sure you mean red. Goblins are red because "lol stupid goblins" is the punchline to every goblin card ever.
On phasing: