Hi, I was mostly an online player and I'm starting to play paper. I have a question about the rules regarding missing triggers.
Things like Sporemound are pretty clear to me. Some others, not as much.
Exalted is one. From what I've been reading, you have to acknowledge the trigger as soon as it has an "effect on the visible state of the game." The example they give is life total. Does this mean I don't have to announce exalted triggers when attacking? Only when combat damage is resolving, or, obviously, when a shock is played on my now 3/3?
Second, blocking with Wall of Frost. Typically I see people just remind their opponent that something is tapped on the opponents next turn. This SOUNDS like it's enough from how I read the rules.
I think this is the same as Wall of Frost, but Guardian of the Ages's loss of Defender. It sounds like I don't need to acknowledge the trigger until the first time its relevant (ie, I try to attack). Specifically gaining/losing abilities was mentioned as something that is not part of the visible game state.
If anyone can clear these up for me I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
I think you need to go a bit further down in that article where it says:
The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state. Many triggered abilities, like exalted and the first ability of Jace, Architect of Thought, fall under this case. Say you attack alone with a creature with exalted. No choices are required when the ability triggers and is put onto the stack, so you don't have to say anything yet. No actions are required when the ability resolves, so you don't have to say anything then, either. (Compare this to an ability that instructs you to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature. The rules require you to actually do that at this point.) But, at some point, damage will be assigned and the triggered ability will have an effect on the visible game state, which includes life totals. This is the point when you need to say something. The bar isn't extraordinarily high here. If the creature is a 2/1 before the bonus, saying "take 3" is great, as is "plus 1 for exalted," and many other variations.
I think the bolded part has the answer you are looking for. You only need to note the trigger when it has a visible effect on the game such as changing how much life will be lost, as opposed to counters, as that article indicates.
As far as Wall of Frost goes, I think if you simply indicate your knowledge of the ability the first time, you can use some sort of shortcut after that whenever it blocks.
With Guardian of the Ages, you need to mention the trigger as soon as your opponent attacks. Generally it will be considered missed once it is clear you have moved to the step where you declare blockers. At that point it is evidently clear that you missed the trigger, at least to the judge, who likely was not there until called over.
states "The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state."
My confusion has to do with what is included in "the visible game state." They cite Jace, Architect of Thought's first ability of -1/-0 to all attackers on your opponents next turn.
So the question boils down to this: Are keyword abilities, and the tapped state of creatures NEXT turn, considered an effect on the "visible game state". I feel like the answer is no, since apparently the power/toughness change from exalted is NOT a change to it. Whether it DIES from a shock, or whether you take 3 damage or 2, is a change to the visible game state.
Mpt, I think you have been told before that it doesn't matter what level someone is or whether they are even a judge, but if it helps, I used to be a level 1 judge. What I quoted is from the same article as what you quoted. Note that the first time that is going to have a visible effect on the game state is when your oppt takes dmg. So, if you attack with it and it isn't blocked as long as you say something like "you take 3" or plus 1 because of exalted, as I indicated, it is just fine.
The question has to do with "missed triggers". I am not sure what tapped creatures has to do with that. Again, I quoted directly from the article, so I am not sure what "more authority" you are looking for.
I haven't been told that before, and I didn't mean to offend. I'm trying to find out the answer to this question. I read the same article. It doesn't answer my question of when a player needs to acknowledge a trigger for some things.
I restated my question above. I'll try again.
What constitutes a change to the "visible game state"? I've been looking for a while online and I can't find a good source for this.
Why would Guardian of the Ages be treated differently than exalted? You don't need to acknowledge exalted until damage is dealt, because it doesn't have a visible effect on the game state. Guardian's trigger doesn't seem to have a visible effect on the game state either, though. Is gaining or losing abilities considered a visible effect, while increasing or decreasing power and toughness is not?
Why would Guardian of the Ages be treated differently than exalted? You don't need to acknowledge exalted until damage is dealt, because it doesn't have a visible effect on the game state. Guardian's trigger doesn't seem to have a visible effect on the game state either, though. Is gaining or losing abilities considered a visible effect, while increasing or decreasing power and toughness is not?
You are correct, I apologize. Since it has no visual impact on the game, you don't need to mention it until it would have an impact on the game and that would be when you attempt to attack with it.
Can I generally think of a visual effect as something that would add/remove cards from zones, or change life totals? It's kind of a bizarre phrase for me (on MODO, lots of things are visual that aren't in paper).
A visual effect is anything that would visibly change the state of the game. Any card or token changing zones (Geist of Saint Traft, Fiend Hunter), life totals changing (Centaur Healer), adding or removing counters (Shrine of Boundless Growth), moving to the next stage of the game (Into the Wilds if you draw a card for turn it's too late). There are possibly more that I can't think of.
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Things like Sporemound are pretty clear to me. Some others, not as much.
Exalted is one. From what I've been reading, you have to acknowledge the trigger as soon as it has an "effect on the visible state of the game." The example they give is life total. Does this mean I don't have to announce exalted triggers when attacking? Only when combat damage is resolving, or, obviously, when a shock is played on my now 3/3?
Second, blocking with Wall of Frost. Typically I see people just remind their opponent that something is tapped on the opponents next turn. This SOUNDS like it's enough from how I read the rules.
I think this is the same as Wall of Frost, but Guardian of the Ages's loss of Defender. It sounds like I don't need to acknowledge the trigger until the first time its relevant (ie, I try to attack). Specifically gaining/losing abilities was mentioned as something that is not part of the visible game state.
If anyone can clear these up for me I'd really appreciate it. Thanks!
The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state. Many triggered abilities, like exalted and the first ability of Jace, Architect of Thought, fall under this case. Say you attack alone with a creature with exalted. No choices are required when the ability triggers and is put onto the stack, so you don't have to say anything yet. No actions are required when the ability resolves, so you don't have to say anything then, either. (Compare this to an ability that instructs you to put a +1/+1 counter on a creature. The rules require you to actually do that at this point.) But, at some point, damage will be assigned and the triggered ability will have an effect on the visible game state, which includes life totals. This is the point when you need to say something. The bar isn't extraordinarily high here. If the creature is a 2/1 before the bonus, saying "take 3" is great, as is "plus 1 for exalted," and many other variations.
I think the bolded part has the answer you are looking for. You only need to note the trigger when it has a visible effect on the game such as changing how much life will be lost, as opposed to counters, as that article indicates.
As far as Wall of Frost goes, I think if you simply indicate your knowledge of the ability the first time, you can use some sort of shortcut after that whenever it blocks.
With Guardian of the Ages, you need to mention the trigger as soon as your opponent attacks. Generally it will be considered missed once it is clear you have moved to the step where you declare blockers. At that point it is evidently clear that you missed the trigger, at least to the judge, who likely was not there until called over.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
This article: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/233
states "The controller must take physical action or make it clear what the action is the first time the change has an effect on the visible game state."
My confusion has to do with what is included in "the visible game state." They cite Jace, Architect of Thought's first ability of -1/-0 to all attackers on your opponents next turn.
So the question boils down to this: Are keyword abilities, and the tapped state of creatures NEXT turn, considered an effect on the "visible game state". I feel like the answer is no, since apparently the power/toughness change from exalted is NOT a change to it. Whether it DIES from a shock, or whether you take 3 damage or 2, is a change to the visible game state.
The question has to do with "missed triggers". I am not sure what tapped creatures has to do with that. Again, I quoted directly from the article, so I am not sure what "more authority" you are looking for.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
I restated my question above. I'll try again.
What constitutes a change to the "visible game state"? I've been looking for a while online and I can't find a good source for this.
You are correct, I apologize. Since it has no visual impact on the game, you don't need to mention it until it would have an impact on the game and that would be when you attempt to attack with it.
New to Commander? Read the Above article.
Can I generally think of a visual effect as something that would add/remove cards from zones, or change life totals? It's kind of a bizarre phrase for me (on MODO, lots of things are visual that aren't in paper).