If I am in a situation where I have no library remaining, Beacon of Tomorrows in hand, and enough mana to resolve it, and then proceed to take infinite turns without accomplishing anything, am I allowed to offer my opponent a draw, or do I have to repeat this action until the match runs out of time?
I wasn't given to understand you could offer draws.
Suppose in the above scenario, I won the first game, we are on game two when this loop occurs, and my opponent asks for a draw.
I'm not obligated to agree, correct? I can simply take X number of turns, moving through them quickly and appropriately, until time is called and I win 1-0-1, yes?
I'm not continuing a loop. There is no shortcut to take infinite turns. I'm not taking Aphetto Alchemist to untap himself 100000 times. I'm simply taking an inordinate number of turns without doing much during those turns.
I don't think you would be able to get away with this because of the shortcut rules in magic. I think you need to declare in advance how many times you would be performing this action and I do not think 'Infinite' is a valid option at which point you would 'fast forward' to a point where someone did something different (in this case it would be you passing the turn because you have no other option).
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There are 10 types of people in this world, those that understand binary and those that don't.
You are still performing the same actions again and again, even though that is spread over multiple turns that is pretty much a textbook definition of a loop of optional actions.
Studuko is correct you would be asked by the judge to elect to repeat the loop a number of times then make a different choice of game actions or if you refuse it is very likely that you would get the stalling penalty, DQ, as you are spending a lot of time not advancing the game state, presumably just to burn out the clock.
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Taking infinite turns isn't a loop, because in order for something to be a loop, there has to be an option to shortcut the loop, as it were.
Turns are not something that can be shortcut. This is a fact.
In a previous tournament I played in, my opponent's entire deck consisted of only mindcontrol/threaten effects. I realized this after an early Memoricide. I counted each of our decks, and thanks to draw effects, my opponent had 8 fewer cards in his deck than mine. I told my opponent that for the rest of the game, I would draw to seven and discard every turn, giving him no option to threaten or mind control anything, and that he would deck out eventually and I would win.. He said its possible, but it was game 1 and he wanted a draw so he and I then sat there for eternity, drawing to seven and discarding.
I called judge maybe five minutes into the charade and the judge said you can't shortcut turns, that they have to be played, even if the result is the same. This was at a PTQ, and the headjudge concurred with the floor judge's ruling.
Taking infinite turns isn't a loop, because in order for something to be a loop, there has to be an option to shortcut the loop, as it were.
Turns are not something that can be shortcut. This is a fact.
In a previous tournament I played in, my opponent's entire deck consisted of only mindcontrol/threaten effects. I realized this after an early Memoricide. I counted each of our decks, and thanks to draw effects, my opponent had 8 fewer cards in his deck than mine. I told my opponent that for the rest of the game, I would draw to seven and discard every turn, giving him no option to threaten or mind control anything, and that he would deck out eventually and I would win.. He said its possible, but it was game 1 and he wanted a draw so he and I then sat there for eternity, drawing to seven and discarding.
I called judge maybe five minutes into the charade and the judge said you can't shortcut turns, that they have to be played, even if the result is the same. This was at a PTQ, and the headjudge concurred with the floor judge's ruling.
That may be true, but there is hidden information being used to decide that.
Without a library there is none. It would depend on the judge, but I would guess 90/100 would make you pick a number then do something else.
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If I am in a situation where I have no library remaining, Beacon of Tomorrows in hand, and enough mana to resolve it, and then proceed to take infinite turns without accomplishing anything, am I allowed to offer my opponent a draw, or do I have to repeat this action until the match runs out of time?
You can take a shortcut in this situation. The Comprehensive Rules says the following...
Quote from CompRules, 716.2a »
At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a nonrepetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.
...so if you have Beacon of Tomorrows and want to take multiple turns in a row (for example, to allow some 1/1 token to attack until your opponent is at 0 life), you could do that. There's a reasonable shortcut to be had there, which is perfectly finite and definable, and you don't have to play out every single turn. So, you can easily propose a shortcut here to take X extra turns, and then the game can continue.
Taking each individual turn in such a situation would be very problematic. Especially if you are just trying to eat up time on the clock.
I called judge maybe five minutes into the charade and the judge said you can't shortcut turns, that they have to be played, even if the result is the same. This was at a PTQ, and the headjudge concurred with the floor judge's ruling.
I can't speak to either the judge's ruling or the Head Judge's ruling, but the situation you describe involving not playing anything each turn and simply discarding isn't actually comparable to your original situation. The difference largely has to do with your opponent here, especially if he or she is drawing each turn and has the ability to cast spells or activate abilities during the game. As such, while you can propose that your opponent is simply going to lose and can't win the game at all, your opponent doesn't have to accept that. And he can certainly play out the turns and go for a win condition or otherwise do something that causes you to lose. (After sideboarding, perhaps he has a way to make you mill cards at a critical point.)
But, neither case is comparable with the other, despite your opinion. And in the first situation, you can certainly shortcut those extra turns. You can specify a finite number of times to repeat the loop and a definitive end state to the loop. So, it meets the general rules/guidelines on loops per the CR. The second situation does not.
If you're doing nothing to advance the game state than that's considered slow play/stalling. Taking an indeterminate number of turns and not doing anything with them is not considered advancing the game state. But that doesn't seem like the answer you want to hear so w/e.
Your example from the PTQ is completely different from the question you posed.
So if I were to say "you're a complete douchebag who has his head up his ass so far he's using his own eyeballs as glasses," you'd simply shrug it off?
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Suppose in the above scenario, I won the first game, we are on game two when this loop occurs, and my opponent asks for a draw.
I'm not obligated to agree, correct? I can simply take X number of turns, moving through them quickly and appropriately, until time is called and I win 1-0-1, yes?
It would only be a draw if it was a loop of mandatory actions like 3 faceless butcher cycling with no other eligible targets for the ETB.
As this loop contains optional actions at some point another choice is going to have to be made otherwise when the judge gets involved the resultant investigation is going to involve stalling as it appears the only intent here is to run down the clock which is categorically against the MTR.
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It would only be a draw if it was a loop of mandatory actions like 3 faceless butcher cycling with no other eligible targets for the ETB.
As this loop contains optional actions at some point another choice is going to have to be made otherwise when the judge gets involved the resultant investigation is going to involve stalling as it appears the only intent here is to run down the clock which is categorically against the MTR.
I was saying that if the game ends in a draw on the 2nd game where he has won 1 game, it's still a draw. At least that's how it's been enforced in my local area, pretty well every shop
And he was correcting you. If a match ends during the 2nd game after a player has won the first game, the player with more game wins will be the winner of the match.
So it's not a draw if a player ends the match with a game score of 1-0-1. It's a win.
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Sorry to sound skeptical, but I've been under the impression that 1-0-1/0-1-1 is still a draw and not a win/loss to either player. Can someone point me to the ruling that states this?
A Magic match consists of a series of games that are played until one side has won an announced number. Drawn games do not count toward this goal, and the match continues for as many games as necessary or until time ends for the round, in which case the winner of the match is the player who has won the most games at that point. If both players have equal game wins, the match is a draw. The minimum number of games required for winning a match is two. The Tournament Organizer may define single-elimination playoff rounds to be played until one player has won at least three games, but this choice must be announced before the tournament begins. Match results, not individual game results, are reported to the DCI for inclusion in Planeswalker Points.
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Sorry to sound skeptical, but I've been under the impression that 1-0-1/0-1-1 is still a draw and not a win/loss to either player. Can someone point me to the ruling that states this?
It's covered in the Magic Tournament Rules...
Quote from Section 2.1 »
A Magic match consists of a series of games that are played until one side has won an announced number. Drawn games do not count toward this goal, and the match continues for as many games as necessary or until time ends for the round, in which case the winner of the match is the player who has won the most games at that point.
...so while very typically a player wins the match once he or she has won two games, a player can win the match if he or she has won a single game as drawn games don't count for this determination.
Back to the original situation. What if the player casting Beacon of Tomorrows has a Scornful Egotist in play that he attacks with every turn and twoother cards in hand, and the other player has a tapped Thragtusk and an untapped Fog Bank that blocks every turn is it still considered slow play?
Back to the original situation. What if the player casting Beacon of Tomorrows has a Scornful Egotist in play that he attacks with every turn and twoother cards in hand, and the other player has a tapped Thragtusk and an untapped Fog Bank that blocks every turn is it still considered slow play?
It would be considered slow play for the active player. The onus for advancing the game state is on the active player, which means the defending player can block all day long but the active player must do something different or get penalized.
So if I were to say "you're a complete douchebag who has his head up his ass so far he's using his own eyeballs as glasses," you'd simply shrug it off?
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I wasn't given to understand you could offer draws.
They don't have to agree though.
I'm not obligated to agree, correct? I can simply take X number of turns, moving through them quickly and appropriately, until time is called and I win 1-0-1, yes?
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Studuko is correct you would be asked by the judge to elect to repeat the loop a number of times then make a different choice of game actions or if you refuse it is very likely that you would get the stalling penalty, DQ, as you are spending a lot of time not advancing the game state, presumably just to burn out the clock.
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All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
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Turns are not something that can be shortcut. This is a fact.
In a previous tournament I played in, my opponent's entire deck consisted of only mindcontrol/threaten effects. I realized this after an early Memoricide. I counted each of our decks, and thanks to draw effects, my opponent had 8 fewer cards in his deck than mine. I told my opponent that for the rest of the game, I would draw to seven and discard every turn, giving him no option to threaten or mind control anything, and that he would deck out eventually and I would win.. He said its possible, but it was game 1 and he wanted a draw so he and I then sat there for eternity, drawing to seven and discarding.
I called judge maybe five minutes into the charade and the judge said you can't shortcut turns, that they have to be played, even if the result is the same. This was at a PTQ, and the headjudge concurred with the floor judge's ruling.
That may be true, but there is hidden information being used to decide that.
Without a library there is none. It would depend on the judge, but I would guess 90/100 would make you pick a number then do something else.
You can take a shortcut in this situation. The Comprehensive Rules says the following...
...so if you have Beacon of Tomorrows and want to take multiple turns in a row (for example, to allow some 1/1 token to attack until your opponent is at 0 life), you could do that. There's a reasonable shortcut to be had there, which is perfectly finite and definable, and you don't have to play out every single turn. So, you can easily propose a shortcut here to take X extra turns, and then the game can continue.
Taking each individual turn in such a situation would be very problematic. Especially if you are just trying to eat up time on the clock.
I can't speak to either the judge's ruling or the Head Judge's ruling, but the situation you describe involving not playing anything each turn and simply discarding isn't actually comparable to your original situation. The difference largely has to do with your opponent here, especially if he or she is drawing each turn and has the ability to cast spells or activate abilities during the game. As such, while you can propose that your opponent is simply going to lose and can't win the game at all, your opponent doesn't have to accept that. And he can certainly play out the turns and go for a win condition or otherwise do something that causes you to lose. (After sideboarding, perhaps he has a way to make you mill cards at a critical point.)
But, neither case is comparable with the other, despite your opinion. And in the first situation, you can certainly shortcut those extra turns. You can specify a finite number of times to repeat the loop and a definitive end state to the loop. So, it meets the general rules/guidelines on loops per the CR. The second situation does not.
Your example from the PTQ is completely different from the question you posed.
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Loops can involve multiple turns. The shortcut here is simply: "I draw Beacon, cast it, and take another turn 1000 times, then I stop."
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No, it's a draw
if the first game is a win, and the second is a draw due to time, then the match is reported as a 1-0-1 win in favor of whoever won game one.
It would only be a draw if it was a loop of mandatory actions like 3 faceless butcher cycling with no other eligible targets for the ETB.
As this loop contains optional actions at some point another choice is going to have to be made otherwise when the judge gets involved the resultant investigation is going to involve stalling as it appears the only intent here is to run down the clock which is categorically against the MTR.
- H.L Mencken
I Became insane with long Intervals of horrible Sanity
All Religion, my friend is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination and poetry.
- Edgar Allan Poe
The Crafters' Rules Guru
I was saying that if the game ends in a draw on the 2nd game where he has won 1 game, it's still a draw. At least that's how it's been enforced in my local area, pretty well every shop
So it's not a draw if a player ends the match with a game score of 1-0-1. It's a win.
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My Type 4 Stack -- DCI Documents -- Comp Rules
It's covered in the Magic Tournament Rules...
...so while very typically a player wins the match once he or she has won two games, a player can win the match if he or she has won a single game as drawn games don't count for this determination.
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It would be considered slow play for the active player. The onus for advancing the game state is on the active player, which means the defending player can block all day long but the active player must do something different or get penalized.
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