If I have the Worldgorger Dragon/ Animate Dead loop set up, and a Shivan Hellkite in my graveyard, can I continue the loop until time is called and then Animate the Hellkite, killing my opponent and effectively giving me the match win (assuming this was game 1), or would I be forced to Animate the Hellkite and end the game? Would this be considered "Stalling" in terms of the rules?
After declaring how many times you want to repeat the loop with Worldgorger Dragon, you would have to select a creature other than Worldgorger Dragon with the Animate Dead. (Of course, no one is forcing you to actually WIN after you do that. You can choose not to do anything with the Shivan Hellkite if you like, or to animate another creature like Coral Merfolk, or whatever.)
Insisting on repeating the same action over and over again at an unnecessarily slow pace (when the actions can be summarized trivially in a shortcut) to take advantage of the time limit is Cheating - Stalling.
After declaring how many times you want to repeat the loop with Worldgorger Dragon, you would have to select a creature other than Worldgorger Dragon with the Animate Dead. (Of course, no one is forcing you to actually WIN after you do that. You can choose not to do anything with the Shivan Hellkite if you like, or to animate another creature like Coral Merfolk, or whatever.)
Insisting on repeating the same action over and over again at an unnecessarily slow pace (when the actions can be summarized trivially in a shortcut) to take advantage of the time limit is Cheating - Stalling.
I see what you're saying, but let's assume the Hellkite is the only other target. Can a judge force a player to make a play like that? Wouldn't that be considered a judge playing the game for that player?
The judge can certainly instruct you to declare how many times in a row you want to make the same choice of which permanent to attach Animate Dead to. If you want to make the choice 500,000,000 times, that's fine. After that, you have to make a different choice, because if you wanted to make the choice 500,000,001 times in a row, you should have said that number instead.
In this case, you have only one different choice to make.
Note that the rules can't force you to terminate the loop in any way other than attaching Animate Dead to a different creature:
715.5. No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop.
Example: A player controls Seal of Cleansing, an enchantment that reads, "Sacrifice Seal of Cleansing: Destroy target artifact or enchantment." A mandatory loop that involves an artifact begins. The player is not forced to sacrifice Seal of Cleansing to destroy the artifact and end the loop.
715.6. If a loop contains an effect that says "[A] unless [B]," where [A] and [B] are each actions, no player can be forced to perform [B] to break the loop. If no player chooses to perform [B], the loop will continue as though [A] were mandatory.
In a very different way, in a very different example, I asked this same question in my own thread.
"Can a rule force you to win?"
Many players offer that if you don't advance game state/board position and are in effect "stalling" (regardless of reason) that you would get a warning for unsportsmanship, up to and including a DQ for Cheating - Stalling.
The judge can certainly instruct you to declare how many times in a row you want to make the same choice of which permanent to attach Animate Dead to. If you want to make the choice 500,000,000 times, that's fine. After that, you have to make a different choice, because if you wanted to make the choice 500,000,001 times in a row, you should have said that number instead.
In this case, you have only one different choice to make.
Note that the rules can't force you to terminate the loop in any way other than attaching Animate Dead to a different creature:
To me, those rules you cited would indicate the opposite. If there are two options, A and B, the player cannot be forced to choose B over A, so it sounds like even if a judge forced me to pick a number of times to repeat the actions, because it is an infinite loop, I could then, after that number runs out, pick another number to continue, because I cannot be forced to choose an action in this context.
In a very different way, in a very different example, I asked this same question in my own thread.
"Can a rule force you to win?"
Many players offer that if you don't advance game state/board position and are in effect "stalling" (regardless of reason) that you would get a warning for unsportsmanship, up to and including a DQ for Cheating - Stalling.
Yeah, that's where I thought of this question. However, this situation deals with an infinte combo that cannot be broken until a player chooses to do so, and since those rules would indicate that a player cannot be forced into choosing one option over another, I'm not so sure the charge of stalling is entirely accurate.
To me, those rules you cited would indicate the opposite. If there are two options, A and B, the player cannot be forced to choose B over A, so it sounds like even if a judge forced me to pick a number of times to repeat the actions, because it is an infinite loop, I could then, after that number runs out, pick another number to continue, because I cannot be forced to choose an action in this context.
Those rules are specifically not written to cover the choice of which card to attach Animate Dead to.
Rule 715.5 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by taking some kind of action not called for by a card participating in the loop. (This doesn't include Animate Dead. since it is participating in the loop.)
Rule 715.6 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by performing an action [b] as part of an effect that says "A unless b." (This doesn't cover Animate Dead, because it doesn't have the word "unless" on it.)
EDIT: Let me put this another way. When the loop starts, you have the following options:
1. Perform the loop once.
2. Perform the loop twice.
3. Perform the loop three times.
...
N. Perform the loop N times.
...
These are really the only options, because the loop is not mandatory. As a result, you have to choose one of them. The judge is not allowed to tell you which one to choose, but he is allowed to insist that you make your choice and perform it in a timely manner. This means using the shortcut rules, because that is the only way to do it in a timely manner.
nobody in their right mind would sit there and allow you to repeat actions in a loop until time was in your favor. the judge would ask you to pick the number of times you want this loop to happen, it happens, then what? you either advance the game state, pass your turn, or sit there awkwardly.
Yeah, that's where I thought of this question. However, this situation deals with an infinte combo that cannot be broken until a player chooses to do so, and since those rules would indicate that a player cannot be forced into choosing one option over another, I'm not so sure the charge of stalling is entirely accurate.
Any "true" infinite loop combo is just that - infinite (beyond a number). That being said, any "true" infinite loop combo stops when the player decides, and the rules dictate that a player HAS to decide a reasonable time (either match time limit, opponent complains of stalling, judge deems game state isn't changing, etc)
For the sake of saving time, and a lot of counting, when an infinite loop is present, players just assign a number as to when to break the loop because some goal was accomplished.
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest = technically, infinite squirrels. The player has to decide on a number. A player doesn't actually tap nest, produce a token, untap nest, tap nest, produce a token etc etc a zillion times over. The player just specifies a zillion and it happens. Same thing happens with infinite turns, creature creation, life gain, etc. The player HAS to specify an exit clause.
Those rules are specifically not written to cover the choice of which card to attach Animate Dead to.
Rule 715.5 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by taking some kind of action not called for by a card participating in the loop. (This doesn't include Animate Dead. since it is participating in the loop.)
Rule 715.6 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by performing an action [b] as part of an effect that says "A unless b." (This doesn't cover Animate Dead, because it doesn't have the word "unless" on it.)
EDIT: Let me put this another way. When the loop starts, you have the following options:
1. Perform the loop once.
2. Perform the loop twice.
3. Perform the loop three times.
...
N. Perform the loop N times.
...
These are really the only options, because the loop is not mandatory. As a result, you have to choose one of them. The judge is not allowed to tell you which one to choose, but he is allowed to insist that you make your choice and perform it in a timely manner. This means using the shortcut rules, because that is the only way to do it in a timely manner.
Fair enough. I suppose there is enough of a choice being made when the Animate comes back in to make this not a true infinite loop to the point where the shortcut would make since. However, let's say I choose to do it N times, shortcut rules apply and N is done. After N is done, because I cannot be forced to Animate the Hellkite, couldn't I just choose to do N again, and repeat until time? Yes this would be morally dubious, but I'm trying to determine if there is anything the judge could do. I'm still not sure Stalling would be the correct charge as while I'm not advancing the game state, I also cannot be forced to make the decision to end the loop.
No you cannot. Once you've chosen to do the loop X times, you have to do something else. You cannot go back into the loop. In this case, once you've looped your Animate Dead/Worldgorger Dragon X times, you have to choose to do something else. In this case, since there is another creature the Dead could enchant, you must choose that other creature. You cannot choose to use the Dead on the Worldgorger again.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Any "true" infinite loop combo is just that - infinite (beyond a number). That being said, any "true" infinite loop combo stops when the player decides, and the rules dictate that a player HAS to decide a reasonable time (either match time limit, opponent complains of stalling, judge deems game state isn't changing, etc)
For the sake of saving time, and a lot of counting, when an infinite loop is present, players just assign a number as to when to break the loop because some goal was accomplished.
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest = technically, infinite squirrels. The player has to decide on a number. A player doesn't actually tap nest, produce a token, untap nest, tap nest, produce a token etc etc a zillion times over. The player just specifies a zillion and it happens. Same thing happens with infinite turns, creature creation, life gain, etc. The player HAS to specify an exit clause.
This situation is different because you have the option of ending your turn at any time with Earthcraft. While the Dragon combo is in effect, you do not have that option. The loop has to stop before you can make any other decisions and what I'm saying is that if I can't be forced to end the loop, couldn't I take the match all the way to time legally?
Fair enough. I suppose there is enough of a choice being made when the Animate comes back in to make this not a true infinite loop to the point where the shortcut would make since. However, let's say I choose to do it N times, shortcut rules apply and N is done. After N is done, because I cannot be forced to Animate the Hellkite, couldn't I just choose to do N again, and repeat until time? Yes this would be morally dubious, but I'm trying to determine if there is anything the judge could do. I'm still not sure Stalling would be the correct charge as while I'm not advancing the game state, I also cannot be forced to make the decision to end the loop.
maybe if you were playing with robots, but a person would tell you to add your N's together for your total.
also, the time it takes for declaring your N, having the shortcut rules apply, and then finish is about 1 second.
I'm still not sure Stalling would be the correct charge as while I'm not advancing the game state, I also cannot be forced to make the decision to end the loop.
That's when you'd get a warning for unsportsmanship. Then a game loss if you do it again. In my thread, I did it to teach an impatient jakass a lesson. In this instance, I don't see why you'd engage the loop in the first place, it's not like you had Pandemonium in play...
No you cannot. Once you've chosen to do the loop X times, you have to do something else. You cannot go back into the loop. In this case, once you've looped your Animate Dead/Worldgorger Dragon X times, you have to choose to do something else. In this case, since there is another creature the Dead could enchant, you must choose that other creature. You cannot choose to use the Dead on the Worldgorger again.
Wouldn't that a choice that is being forced upon me? Unless I'm mistaken, a player cannot be forced to make such a decision. I'm not trying to be difficult, but the fact that the only choice involved is either reanimate Dragon or Hellkite doesn't seem like one that can be forced on a player, by a judge or otherwise.
This situation is different because you have the option of ending your turn at any time with Earthcraft. While the Dragon combo is in effect, you do not have that option. The loop has to stop before you can make any other decisions and what I'm saying is that if I can't be forced to end the loop, couldn't I take the match all the way to time legally?
No. You specify a shortcut of looping the Dragon X number of times. If you complete X, you can't loop the Dragon again, because you should've just said X+1, not X. Specify X, then do something else than X+1.
Either I'm missing something vastly important to your point, or I understand the card interraction wrong. I don't see a win condition, board advantage, or anything else other than you infinitely giving the same dragon -1/-0 over and over again.
Dragon in grave. Play Animate. Target Dragon. Dragon comes in. Exiles board. Animate triggers. Dragon dies. Dragon triggers. Animate comes back and targets dragon. Wash, rinse, repeat. So what?
What is this combo supposed to do, and what's the point of engaging in it in the first place?
That's when you'd get a warning for unsportsmanship. Then a game loss if you do it again. In my thread, I did it to teach an impatient jakass a lesson. In this instance, I don't see why you'd engage the loop in the first place, it's not like you had Pandemonium in play...
Well again, that's not the underlying question. The question is not of sportsmanship or why I played the Animate, it's a question of choice. When there are only two options available, can I be forced to choose option A rather than option B? Even if a shortcut is in play, once that shortcut finishes, the choice between A and B still exists. Even at that point, I'm still not sure a player can be forced to choose one over the other.
Either I'm missing something vastly important to your point, or I understand the card interraction wrong. I don't see a win condition, board advantage, or anything else other than you infinitely giving the same dragon -1/-0 over and over again.
What is this combo supposed to do, and what's the point of engaging in it in the first place?
Float mana, enter the Dragon, leave the Dragon, float mana, etc. Animate the Hellkite and burn everyone to death.
Either I'm missing something vastly important to your point, or I understand the card interraction wrong. I don't see a win condition, board advantage, or anything else other than you infinitely giving the same dragon -1/-0 over and over again.
What is this combo supposed to do, and what's the point of engaging in it in the first place?
Produce a lot of mana with the Worldgorger Dragon/Animate Dead combo (your lands come back untapped after the Dragon leaves the battlefield), then animate the Shivan Hellkite and use its activated ability against the opponent.
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Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
The purpose of the combo is to force a draw. It only works if you have no other legal targets in your graveyard. If worldgorger is your only legal target for animate dead, then you cant actually make a different choice and thus the game forces you to continue doing it. of course if there is another legal target, plenty of people have answered that
Edit: Also Nate answered what would happen if you had a creature that actually did something in the graveyard
Either I'm missing something vastly important to your point, or I understand the card interraction wrong. I don't see a win condition, board advantage, or anything else other than you infinitely giving the same dragon -1/-0 over and over again.
What is this combo supposed to do, and what's the point of engaging in it in the first place?
The Dragon combo goes like this:
1. Have Worldgorger Dragon and another creature (Shivan Hellkite in this case) in your graveyard.
2. Animate Dead Worldgorger
3. Worldgorger comes into play and removes everything else, including Animate
4. Because Animate no longer enchants Worldgorger, it is sacrificed
5. Worldgorger's leave play ability resolves and everything, including Animate comes back into play untapped.
6. At this point you would tap all your lands for mana and repeat the process, thereby giving you infinite mana
7. Animate Hellkite and ping opponent for a bajillion.
Rule 715.5 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by taking some kind of action not called for by a card participating in the loop. (This doesn't include Animate Dead. since it is participating in the loop.)
Rule 715.6 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by performing an action [b] as part of an effect that says "A unless b." (This doesn't cover Animate Dead, because it doesn't have the word "unless" on it.)
It should be pointed out that the floating of mana is not expressly covered under either of these rules. Worldgorger returning mana to play untapped doesn't require the floating of mana. That is an active choice on behalf of the player.
Gorger MUST return animate. Animate MUST target gorger. The fact that you're floating a decided amount of mana is optional. The loop interacting with itself isn't.
The judge would most likely ask you "how much total mana do you want to float"?, NOT "How many times is dragon going to pitch animate to trigger dragon".
Then go to fast track a billion mana, you instantly achieve your goal, infinity loop is subverted because optimal mana is reached, therefore no point continuing. And if you did, because you technically can, you'd get warned by a judge, and kicked in the nuts under the table by the opponent.
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Continuing the loop indefinitely is going to get you a penalty for unsporting conduct, because you always have the option to terminate the loop in another way.
(obviously the opponent can see hellkite in your grave, your win condition isn't hidden in your hand), why they wouldn't scoop at that point is beyond me.
It should be pointed out that the floating of mana is not expressly covered under either of these rules. Worldgorger returning mana to play untapped doesn't require the floating of mana. That is an active choice on behalf of the player.
Of course it's optional. But you asked what the point of the combo was. With a creature like Hellkite in the graveyard, that's the point.
It should be pointed out that the floating of mana is not expressly covered under either of these rules. Worldgorger returning mana to play untapped doesn't require the floating of mana. That is an active choice on behalf of the player.
Gorger MUST return animate. Animate MUST target gorger. The fact that you're floating a decided amount of mana is optional. The loop interacting with itself isn't.
The judge would most likely ask you "how much total mana do you want to float"?, NOT "How many times is dragon going to pitch animate to trigger dragon".
Then go to fast track a billion mana, you instantly achieve your goal, infinity loop is subverted because optimal mana is reached, therefore no point continuing. And if you did, because you technically can, you'd get warned by a judge, and kicked in the nuts under the table by the opponent.
The fact that I'm floating mana is irrelevant to the situation. I could say I want to float a billion mana and take the shortcut. But then what? Can anyone, including a judge, force me to choose to reanimate the Hellkite? You're right that the opponent can scoop at any time, but that's not the central question. Also, I'm not sure I could be warned either. If the judge can't force me to end the loop, on what grounds would he warn me? Even Unsportsmanlike conduct doesn't make much sense as I'm just replaying the same loop over and over. It may not be moral, but I don't think it breaks any rules.
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Insisting on repeating the same action over and over again at an unnecessarily slow pace (when the actions can be summarized trivially in a shortcut) to take advantage of the time limit is Cheating - Stalling.
I see what you're saying, but let's assume the Hellkite is the only other target. Can a judge force a player to make a play like that? Wouldn't that be considered a judge playing the game for that player?
In this case, you have only one different choice to make.
Note that the rules can't force you to terminate the loop in any way other than attaching Animate Dead to a different creature:
"Can a rule force you to win?"
Many players offer that if you don't advance game state/board position and are in effect "stalling" (regardless of reason) that you would get a warning for unsportsmanship, up to and including a DQ for Cheating - Stalling.
To me, those rules you cited would indicate the opposite. If there are two options, A and B, the player cannot be forced to choose B over A, so it sounds like even if a judge forced me to pick a number of times to repeat the actions, because it is an infinite loop, I could then, after that number runs out, pick another number to continue, because I cannot be forced to choose an action in this context.
Yeah, that's where I thought of this question. However, this situation deals with an infinte combo that cannot be broken until a player chooses to do so, and since those rules would indicate that a player cannot be forced into choosing one option over another, I'm not so sure the charge of stalling is entirely accurate.
Rule 715.5 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by taking some kind of action not called for by a card participating in the loop. (This doesn't include Animate Dead. since it is participating in the loop.)
Rule 715.6 covers the question of whether a player can be forced to break a loop by performing an action [b] as part of an effect that says "A unless b." (This doesn't cover Animate Dead, because it doesn't have the word "unless" on it.)
EDIT: Let me put this another way. When the loop starts, you have the following options:
1. Perform the loop once.
2. Perform the loop twice.
3. Perform the loop three times.
...
N. Perform the loop N times.
...
These are really the only options, because the loop is not mandatory. As a result, you have to choose one of them. The judge is not allowed to tell you which one to choose, but he is allowed to insist that you make your choice and perform it in a timely manner. This means using the shortcut rules, because that is the only way to do it in a timely manner.
are you trolling?
Any "true" infinite loop combo is just that - infinite (beyond a number). That being said, any "true" infinite loop combo stops when the player decides, and the rules dictate that a player HAS to decide a reasonable time (either match time limit, opponent complains of stalling, judge deems game state isn't changing, etc)
For the sake of saving time, and a lot of counting, when an infinite loop is present, players just assign a number as to when to break the loop because some goal was accomplished.
Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest = technically, infinite squirrels. The player has to decide on a number. A player doesn't actually tap nest, produce a token, untap nest, tap nest, produce a token etc etc a zillion times over. The player just specifies a zillion and it happens. Same thing happens with infinite turns, creature creation, life gain, etc. The player HAS to specify an exit clause.
Fair enough. I suppose there is enough of a choice being made when the Animate comes back in to make this not a true infinite loop to the point where the shortcut would make since. However, let's say I choose to do it N times, shortcut rules apply and N is done. After N is done, because I cannot be forced to Animate the Hellkite, couldn't I just choose to do N again, and repeat until time? Yes this would be morally dubious, but I'm trying to determine if there is anything the judge could do. I'm still not sure Stalling would be the correct charge as while I'm not advancing the game state, I also cannot be forced to make the decision to end the loop.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
This situation is different because you have the option of ending your turn at any time with Earthcraft. While the Dragon combo is in effect, you do not have that option. The loop has to stop before you can make any other decisions and what I'm saying is that if I can't be forced to end the loop, couldn't I take the match all the way to time legally?
maybe if you were playing with robots, but a person would tell you to add your N's together for your total.
also, the time it takes for declaring your N, having the shortcut rules apply, and then finish is about 1 second.
That's when you'd get a warning for unsportsmanship. Then a game loss if you do it again. In my thread, I did it to teach an impatient jakass a lesson. In this instance, I don't see why you'd engage the loop in the first place, it's not like you had Pandemonium in play...
Wouldn't that a choice that is being forced upon me? Unless I'm mistaken, a player cannot be forced to make such a decision. I'm not trying to be difficult, but the fact that the only choice involved is either reanimate Dragon or Hellkite doesn't seem like one that can be forced on a player, by a judge or otherwise.
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Dragon in grave. Play Animate. Target Dragon. Dragon comes in. Exiles board. Animate triggers. Dragon dies. Dragon triggers. Animate comes back and targets dragon. Wash, rinse, repeat. So what?
What is this combo supposed to do, and what's the point of engaging in it in the first place?
Well again, that's not the underlying question. The question is not of sportsmanship or why I played the Animate, it's a question of choice. When there are only two options available, can I be forced to choose option A rather than option B? Even if a shortcut is in play, once that shortcut finishes, the choice between A and B still exists. Even at that point, I'm still not sure a player can be forced to choose one over the other.
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Produce a lot of mana with the Worldgorger Dragon/Animate Dead combo (your lands come back untapped after the Dragon leaves the battlefield), then animate the Shivan Hellkite and use its activated ability against the opponent.
Scientists have calculated that the chance of anything so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten.
Edit: Also Nate answered what would happen if you had a creature that actually did something in the graveyard
Ex-DCI Level 1 judge
Ex-Rules Advisor
The Dragon combo goes like this:
1. Have Worldgorger Dragon and another creature (Shivan Hellkite in this case) in your graveyard.
2. Animate Dead Worldgorger
3. Worldgorger comes into play and removes everything else, including Animate
4. Because Animate no longer enchants Worldgorger, it is sacrificed
5. Worldgorger's leave play ability resolves and everything, including Animate comes back into play untapped.
6. At this point you would tap all your lands for mana and repeat the process, thereby giving you infinite mana
7. Animate Hellkite and ping opponent for a bajillion.
It should be pointed out that the floating of mana is not expressly covered under either of these rules. Worldgorger returning mana to play untapped doesn't require the floating of mana. That is an active choice on behalf of the player.
Gorger MUST return animate. Animate MUST target gorger. The fact that you're floating a decided amount of mana is optional. The loop interacting with itself isn't.
The judge would most likely ask you "how much total mana do you want to float"?, NOT "How many times is dragon going to pitch animate to trigger dragon".
Then go to fast track a billion mana, you instantly achieve your goal, infinity loop is subverted because optimal mana is reached, therefore no point continuing. And if you did, because you technically can, you'd get warned by a judge, and kicked in the nuts under the table by the opponent.
-----
Continuing the loop indefinitely is going to get you a penalty for unsporting conduct, because you always have the option to terminate the loop in another way.
(obviously the opponent can see hellkite in your grave, your win condition isn't hidden in your hand), why they wouldn't scoop at that point is beyond me.
Double-post merged. -Carsten
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The fact that I'm floating mana is irrelevant to the situation. I could say I want to float a billion mana and take the shortcut. But then what? Can anyone, including a judge, force me to choose to reanimate the Hellkite? You're right that the opponent can scoop at any time, but that's not the central question. Also, I'm not sure I could be warned either. If the judge can't force me to end the loop, on what grounds would he warn me? Even Unsportsmanlike conduct doesn't make much sense as I'm just replaying the same loop over and over. It may not be moral, but I don't think it breaks any rules.