what happens to +1/+1 counters when the creature dies?
1)Go to graveyard then cease to exist.
2)cease to exist.
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Black Lotus, is really expensive.
Trinisphere came a long and made it completely worthless.
That's the only reason why it's restricted.
I think An undercover Yu-Gi-Oh agent got a temp job at WOTC. He made this card and it somehow slipped through the cracks. His main objective was to bring down the Magic Empire. Then he tapped himself and disappeared.
GENERATION 15 1 to the generation. (social experiment)
When tokens leave play in any way, they disappear. They are technichally removed from the game, but if you used Oblivion Ring on a token it still won't come back when the ring leaves play.
+1/+1 counters get removed from any creature that leaves play and disappear, because counters can only be placed on permanents, and only cards in play are permanents.
I just like answering these types of questions with further questions, to avoid similar mistakes in that mindframe...
How would a counter be put into a graveyard? How would it work and what would it do?
I ask this seriously, because it inspires people to think, and most rules in the game can be figured out by thinking deeply (if one knows how the game works, of course).
Basically, no. Counters couldn't possibly be put into a graveyard. And if they could, they'd do nothing there. Tokens would make more sense remaining there, but they're not originally part of the game as it started. They're treated as regular creatures but as soon as the game doesn't care about them (after they've gone to a graveyard or left play in any other way), they're not part of the game, basically. Same with counters, they're just representations of something physical within the game. Since it's easier to keep track of them that way, people use concrete things, sometimes making it all a bit more confusing.
Counters and tokens cannot reenter play from any zone. I was curious about this myself relating the card Momentary Blink because the token ceasing to exist is part of status checks and if you were to blink a token, would it be able to return to play? Nope:
216.3
A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.) Once a token has left play, it can't be returned to play by any means.
Another interesting situation I came across was with Lich's Mirror. Lich's Mirror says you get to shuffle all of your Permanents into your library, and tokens are a permanent. So if you had 20 tokens in play when you died with Lich's Mirror in play, you would shuffle 20 tokens into your library, draw 7 cards and then the tokens would cease to exist, but you couldn't draw the tokens because they weren't a card.
I'm of the same opinion that finding strange rule situations and exploring how they can be adapted by adding cards really helps your comprehension and remembering of the rules.:)
Counters and Permanents cannot reenter play from any zone.
Tokens can't reenter play, no. Counters can certainly reenter play; see phasing as an example. (I'm assuming you intended to say "counters and tokens" instead of counters and permanents.)
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I am no longer on MTGS staff, so please don't contact me asking me to do staff things. :|
Tokens can't reenter play, no. Counters can certainly reenter play; see phasing as an example. (I'm assuming you intended to say "counters and tokens" instead of counters and permanents.)
Hmm, didn't realize there was another zone for phasing:
502.15f
A card that returns to play from the phased-out zone is considered the same permanent it was when it left. This is an exception to rule 217.1c, which stipulates that a permanent "forgets" its previous existence when it changes zones.
So does that mean if you cannot have a token phase in because it is another zone and they cannot reenter play, or was that covered somewhere in the rules I missed?
So does that mean if you cannot have a token phase in because it is another zone and they cannot reenter play, or was that covered somewhere in the rules I missed?
A token that phases out, leaves play. It can't phase back in, and would cease to exist when state-based effects are checked.
216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.)
216.4 A token that has left play can’t come back into play. If such a token would return to play, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based effects are checked.
To be clear (and hopefully put a capstone on this thread), the following rules are most relevant (at least IMO):
200.10. A counter is a marker placed on an object or player, either modifying its characteristics or interacting with an ability. A counter is not a token, and a token is not a counter. Counters with the same name or description are interchangeable.
Counters can be placed on any object or player. Objects are defined as:
200.8. An object is an ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, or a permanent. The term “object” is used in these rules when a rule applies to abilities on the stack, cards, tokens, spells, and permanents. Combat damage on the stack is also an object, although many uses of the term “object” in these rules don’t apply to it.
Counters, themselves, are not in any zone. They are just a marker that's "on" a particular object. If that object changes zones, then it falls under the general rule:
217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object.
So, if the Glory Seeker that a +1/+1 counter is on is removed from the game, the counter just disappears. Even if the Glory Seeker is removed and returned via Momentary Blink, the counter disappears as the Glory Seeker is treated as a new object. And, as far as I know, the only exception to that is Phasing. And that just doesn't come up that often.
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what happens to +1/+1 counters when the creature dies?
1)Go to graveyard then cease to exist.
2)cease to exist.
Trinisphere came a long and made it completely worthless.
That's the only reason why it's restricted.
I think An undercover Yu-Gi-Oh agent got a temp job at WOTC. He made this card and it somehow slipped through the cracks. His main objective was to bring down the Magic Empire. Then he tapped himself and disappeared.
GENERATION 15 1 to the generation. (social experiment)
+1/+1 counters get removed from any creature that leaves play and disappear, because counters can only be placed on permanents, and only cards in play are permanents.
My blog.
do +1/+1 counters go to graveyard or out of the game when the creature dies
do tokens go to graveyard or out of the game when they die
When a token goes to the graveyard, it arrives there and then ceases to exist.
My blog.
How would a counter be put into a graveyard? How would it work and what would it do?
I ask this seriously, because it inspires people to think, and most rules in the game can be figured out by thinking deeply (if one knows how the game works, of course).
Basically, no. Counters couldn't possibly be put into a graveyard. And if they could, they'd do nothing there. Tokens would make more sense remaining there, but they're not originally part of the game as it started. They're treated as regular creatures but as soon as the game doesn't care about them (after they've gone to a graveyard or left play in any other way), they're not part of the game, basically. Same with counters, they're just representations of something physical within the game. Since it's easier to keep track of them that way, people use concrete things, sometimes making it all a bit more confusing.
I like 4/4s for 7.
Another interesting situation I came across was with Lich's Mirror. Lich's Mirror says you get to shuffle all of your Permanents into your library, and tokens are a permanent. So if you had 20 tokens in play when you died with Lich's Mirror in play, you would shuffle 20 tokens into your library, draw 7 cards and then the tokens would cease to exist, but you couldn't draw the tokens because they weren't a card.
I'm of the same opinion that finding strange rule situations and exploring how they can be adapted by adding cards really helps your comprehension and remembering of the rules.:)
[c=Black Lotus]Lotus[/c]=Lotus
[c=Black Lotus|Alpha]Lotus[/c]=Lotus
[mana]WUBRGS-TQ-1-2-12-XY[/mana]=WUBRGS-TQ----XY
[mana]{WU}{UB}{BR}{RG}{GW}{WB}{BG}{GU}{UR}{RW}{2W}{2U}{2B}{2R}{2G}[/mana]=(W/U)(U/B)(B/R)(R/G)(G/W)(W/B)(B/G)(G/U)(U/R)(R/W)(2/W)(2/U)(2/B)(2/R)(2/G)
Triggered Ability-Whenever/When/At ..., (effect)
Replacement Effect-If/As ..., (effect)
It's quite obvious you meant tokens, not permanents. Just nitpicking to prevent confusing someone who comes across this thread later
Tokens can't reenter play, no. Counters can certainly reenter play; see phasing as an example. (I'm assuming you intended to say "counters and tokens" instead of counters and permanents.)
Ahh, thank you for that, Fixed it! =)
[c=Black Lotus]Lotus[/c]=Lotus
[c=Black Lotus|Alpha]Lotus[/c]=Lotus
[mana]WUBRGS-TQ-1-2-12-XY[/mana]=WUBRGS-TQ----XY
[mana]{WU}{UB}{BR}{RG}{GW}{WB}{BG}{GU}{UR}{RW}{2W}{2U}{2B}{2R}{2G}[/mana]=(W/U)(U/B)(B/R)(R/G)(G/W)(W/B)(B/G)(G/U)(U/R)(R/W)(2/W)(2/U)(2/B)(2/R)(2/G)
Triggered Ability-Whenever/When/At ..., (effect)
Replacement Effect-If/As ..., (effect)
Hmm, didn't realize there was another zone for phasing:
So does that mean if you cannot have a token phase in because it is another zone and they cannot reenter play, or was that covered somewhere in the rules I missed?
[c=Black Lotus]Lotus[/c]=Lotus
[c=Black Lotus|Alpha]Lotus[/c]=Lotus
[mana]WUBRGS-TQ-1-2-12-XY[/mana]=WUBRGS-TQ----XY
[mana]{WU}{UB}{BR}{RG}{GW}{WB}{BG}{GU}{UR}{RW}{2W}{2U}{2B}{2R}{2G}[/mana]=(W/U)(U/B)(B/R)(R/G)(G/W)(W/B)(B/G)(G/U)(U/R)(R/W)(2/W)(2/U)(2/B)(2/R)(2/G)
Triggered Ability-Whenever/When/At ..., (effect)
Replacement Effect-If/As ..., (effect)
A token that phases out, leaves play. It can't phase back in, and would cease to exist when state-based effects are checked.
216.3. A token in a zone other than the in-play zone ceases to exist. This is a state-based effect. (Note that a token changing zones sets off triggered abilities before the token ceases to exist.)
216.4 A token that has left play can’t come back into play. If such a token would return to play, it remains in its current zone instead. It ceases to exist the next time state-based effects are checked.
My blog.
There's no exceptions, either something works within the rules or it doesn't.
Also see poison counters on players ^^ (And Ertai's Meddling long before Suspend)
To be clear (and hopefully put a capstone on this thread), the following rules are most relevant (at least IMO):
200.10. A counter is a marker placed on an object or player, either modifying its characteristics or interacting with an ability. A counter is not a token, and a token is not a counter. Counters with the same name or description are interchangeable.
Counters can be placed on any object or player. Objects are defined as:
200.8. An object is an ability on the stack, a card, a copy of a card, a token, a spell, or a permanent. The term “object” is used in these rules when a rule applies to abilities on the stack, cards, tokens, spells, and permanents. Combat damage on the stack is also an object, although many uses of the term “object” in these rules don’t apply to it.
Counters, themselves, are not in any zone. They are just a marker that's "on" a particular object. If that object changes zones, then it falls under the general rule:
217.1c An object that moves from one zone to another is treated as a new object.
So, if the Glory Seeker that a +1/+1 counter is on is removed from the game, the counter just disappears. Even if the Glory Seeker is removed and returned via Momentary Blink, the counter disappears as the Glory Seeker is treated as a new object. And, as far as I know, the only exception to that is Phasing. And that just doesn't come up that often.