I don't intend for this to become a debate on the merits of rare redrafting but I suppose that is essentially the heart of my question.
This LGS holds drafts where the entry fee is $15. First place gets 9 prize packs, second place gets 6 prize packs, and third place gets 4 prize packs. Everyone else gets 1 prize pack for each match won (and a pity pack if you dont win any). At the end of the draft, they re-draft all rares and foils.
So basically now you have a situation where first place not only gets 9 packs as a prize, but also gets the best card pulled in the entire pod. I've seen foil money mythics in many pods in the past so first place basically gets $80+ of value from a fifteen dollar draft. If you didn't place you usually just get a bunch of crap rares.
I would understand using rare re-draft as a form of prize support if it were a cheaper draft, but with a $15 dollar draft, there already is strong prize support with the packs. It seems like adding the rare re-draft only serves to really screw over newer players and reward all the veterans. Doesn't sound that fair to me to pay 15 bucks only to hand over all my rares and pray that my deck is able to beat enough people that I can get some of them back. Or is it more fair because with actual prize pack support, you have more incentive to make the best deck you possibly can?
Sounds good, but the redrafting is horrible mine goes like this
1st 6 packs
2nd 5 packs
3rd 3 packs
4th one pack. So 15 packs total for 8 people, my store does pods of 8. three rounds. 1.8 packs per player.
How many rounds are there? How many players in total are competing for the prizes?
If it's 8 players, 3 rounds, $15 is fair. Look at it this way: $15 gets each player 4.5 boosters (3 boosters for drafting, 1.5 boosters in prizes). The extra packs for 3rd+ and pity packs are gravy.
Redrafts do not alter the total payout, only the distribution of said payout.
How many rounds are there? How many players in total are competing for the prizes?
If it's 8 players, 3 rounds, $15 is fair. Look at it this way: $15 gets each player 4.5 boosters (3 boosters for drafting, 1.5 boosters in prizes). The extra packs for 3rd+ and pity packs are gravy.
Redrafts do not alter the total payout, only the distribution of said payout.
That's insanely heavy prizing. It's pretty skewed so I don't know about "fair" or "unfair" but if I had any at all chance to win, I'd definitely join that pod.
The prizing is quite fair. However, as many have said, the fact that there are that many pack prizes (skewed to the high places) should be sufficient to not have to do a rare redraft. With such heavy prizing, you still minimize "value drafting", while allowing more casual players to show up and not have to worry about losing their Colossal Whales and Shivan Dragons when they lose and/or have to leave early.
I thought it was decent until I read the redrafting part. The point of redrafting is that it keeps costs down and gives prize support to low-cost events that otherwise wouldn't have much/any. $15 for 9-6-4-Swiss seems okay enough as is, so redrafting doesn't even fulfill its one useful function.
Personally, I'd never participate in a draft where rares were redrafted at the end, and having it at the end of an otherwise well-supported draft is just a kick in the face to people who might not be very good players, but can feel good about opening a valuable mythic every now and then. Better players still get much more value in the long run even without redrafting.
Then it's fair. The only criticism is that the prize payout is skewed towards the top players.
At the end of 3 rounds, assuming no draws, there will be:
1 player at 3-0
3 players at 2-1
3 players at 1-2
1 player at 0-3
That makes the payout 9-6-4-2-1-1-1-1, or 25 packs total.
Your LGS takes in $15 * 8 = $120. It gives out 3 * 8 + 25 = 49 packs total. That's ~$2.45 per pack. Suffice to say, your LGS is definitely not skimping on prize support.
However, the redraft makes it such that the 1st place finisher walks away with most of the prizes. Most people don't feel good about that, unless that can place first consistently. It'd be perfect if your LGS just skipped the redraft.
To reiterate, though: redrafts do not alter the total payout, only the distribution of said payout. The justification for scrapping the redraft is purely to make players feel less jelly when they don't win. It does not somehow mean that the LGS is shortchanging you.
The justification for scrapping the redraft is purely to make players feel less jelly when they don't win.
Yeah, someone is jelly because they lost something they drafted, ESPECIALLY with no warning.
Please tell me some [**SOME**] of those supporting re-drafting, who use this thinking, aren't serious, and are actually able to understand the issues people have with re-drafting enough to summarize it in a less infantile manner than this.
:
The justification for scrapping the redraft is purely to make players feel less jelly when they don't win.
Well, no, it's to incentivize drafting for less-skilled players. If you want the draft to be highly competitive, then redrafting encourages that. However, that also drives away the non-competitive players, which represent a fair bit of revenue for the store. It's better to allow the more casual players the chance to take something nice home every once in a while, because that makes them more likely to want to draft. The store takes in more money, competitive players get more prize value in the long run, casual players get something nice every now and then, and everyone's better off.
Never heard of getting prizes for losing. If you don't have to place or even win to get a prize that seems to negate any complaints you can have about the prize payouts.
I did about 6-8 booster drafts with 0 prizes, not even a promo card, by your strange pay out system I would have won a dozen packs and lost an Obzedat which I'm ok with.
Can't believe there are any complaints about your payout system, I mean my drafts are $12 and only 25% of the players win anything.
and wouldnt a re-draft make more sense to put 3 random rares in each person's hands?
I don't intend for this to become a debate on the merits of rare redrafting but I suppose that is essentially the heart of my question.
This LGS holds drafts where the entry fee is $15. First place gets 9 prize packs, second place gets 6 prize packs, and third place gets 4 prize packs. Everyone else gets 1 prize pack for each match won (and a pity pack if you dont win any). At the end of the draft, they re-draft all rares and foils.
So basically now you have a situation where first place not only gets 9 packs as a prize, but also gets the best card pulled in the entire pod. I've seen foil money mythics in many pods in the past so first place basically gets $80+ of value from a fifteen dollar draft. If you didn't place you usually just get a bunch of crap rares.
I would understand using rare re-draft as a form of prize support if it were a cheaper draft, but with a $15 dollar draft, there already is strong prize support with the packs. It seems like adding the rare re-draft only serves to really screw over newer players and reward all the veterans. Doesn't sound that fair to me to pay 15 bucks only to hand over all my rares and pray that my deck is able to beat enough people that I can get some of them back. Or is it more fair because with actual prize pack support, you have more incentive to make the best deck you possibly can?
I'm pretty torn on this. Thoughts?
Are you actually complaining about that payout? In my experience that is probably the highest payout I have ever seen in a draft.
While the prize support doesn't seem terrible do to the spread of prize, as it's not top heavy prize support, the fact that it's in packs is terrible. I can't stand places that pay out in packs as opposed to cash or store credit. Sure, the packs might end up being worth more, but you can never go infinite, and I'd rather lose value so I don't have to pay cash for cards/drafts in the future.
While the prize support doesn't seem terrible do to the spread of prize, as it's not top heavy prize support, the fact that it's in packs is terrible. I can't stand places that pay out in packs as opposed to cash or store credit. Sure, the packs might end up being worth more, but you can never go infinite, and I'd rather lose value so I don't have to pay cash for cards/drafts in the future.
As much as I've heard about stores that let players go infinite, I've never actually been to a store that allows it. Most of the stores around me will give out credit, but will put a "product-only" restriction on it.
the actual prize-support is very very good. 9 boosters for first is a sweet deal.
but that just raises the question, why bother with the re-draft? Generally, re-drafts are for low prize support drafts. Its how they reward the guy who came first. But if they already get that much of a prize, I don't see the need for the re-draft.
the thing is, re-drafts feel pretty bad when, as a new player, you open your first walker and are really stoked, and it ends up with the guy who already has a playset of it. If prize support can feed that guy, then leave the rares as is, IMO
Yeah, someone is jelly because they lost something they drafted, ESPECIALLY with no warning.
"Lost"? You don't own the product until after the event or you drop.
"No warning"? The thread starter obviously knows that there is a redraft. It's not like the TO told him that there wouldn't be a redraft, then went back on his word later.
From the POV of the LGS, all they know is that they take in $X and give out Y boosters. Whether player A or player B walks home with the foil Scavenging Ooze is of little concern to them.
However, if they want the continued business of their customers, they have to offer what the majority of their customers want. If the majority of their customers are going to feel bad when they open a money card only to have it redrafted, despite the fact that they were informed of the possibility of such an occurrence before they entered the draft, then the LGS owner just has to bite his tongue.
you should all stop whining. In Australia where I live its $20 entry, 3 boosters+promo for first and 2 boosters+promo for second. Re-drafting is the only thing that makes it worthwhile. We also usually give our third picks to the players that went 0-3 and 1-2. So be happy with your cheap and huge payout draft.
Also most redrafts let you keep your foils so there is 24 rares every time.
As much as I've heard about stores that let players go infinite, I've never actually been to a store that allows it. Most of the stores around me will give out credit, but will put a "product-only" restriction on it.
That absolutely defeats the purpose of credit, especially if they don't have cards in stock that you need or want. More so, it really invalidates the point of credit at a store... I've come into my LGS, handed them a 20, told them to use the amount needed for the FNM and put the rest on credit because I knew I'd use it for an event eventually. I've gone infinite for a few sets, but not all sets. Here are a few things stores should consider:
1.) Credit being used is cash being used. Sure, you can restrict it to product, and not allow it to be used for events, but you still have to purchase that product and in reality if I buy cards I see as below the right value in your case you're losing as much if not more as if you let me just use that money to re-enter the event. Either I can buy cards, or I can buy events, events usually have a lower profit margin than singles, you're choice if you want to lose money.
2.) Store credit being allowed for events keeps people coming back and paying you more cash. I live in an area that isn't exactly fiscally affluent, and a lot of players can't always justify the full amount for an FNM, but then can justify a partial payment. So buy awarding credit to x-1 players, and letting them use that credit to pay for partial re-entry gives you more cash, not less. In short, a player with 10 credit and 5 dollars can enter a draft and you get 5 dollars, a player with 10 credit that can only use it on product will buy product and skip next week... You actually stand to make more by allowing players to pay partially in credit, and you keep attendance up which helps with product allocation and such for your store.
3.) A store that offers the infinite incentive will beat the one that pays more in packs. This actually happened where I moved to, one store offered cheaper drafts with theoretical higher pay out, and the other offered store credit that could be used for anything and everything. The incentive for players to go infinite attracted better players and as such pulled in the players that wanted to improve. These days the store that offered unrestricted credit has a flourishing community while the other store is a footnote in magic event history.
4.) Are these people stupid? Store credit is store credit, don't devalue the meaning of it by not allowing it to be used on stuff... Can you imagine walking into a Dunkin' Donuts and them telling you that you can only use it on Donuts but not coffee? I'd tell them to go to hell in a second.
This LGS holds drafts where the entry fee is $15. First place gets 9 prize packs, second place gets 6 prize packs, and third place gets 4 prize packs. Everyone else gets 1 prize pack for each match won (and a pity pack if you dont win any). At the end of the draft, they re-draft all rares and foils.
So basically now you have a situation where first place not only gets 9 packs as a prize, but also gets the best card pulled in the entire pod. I've seen foil money mythics in many pods in the past so first place basically gets $80+ of value from a fifteen dollar draft. If you didn't place you usually just get a bunch of crap rares.
I would understand using rare re-draft as a form of prize support if it were a cheaper draft, but with a $15 dollar draft, there already is strong prize support with the packs. It seems like adding the rare re-draft only serves to really screw over newer players and reward all the veterans. Doesn't sound that fair to me to pay 15 bucks only to hand over all my rares and pray that my deck is able to beat enough people that I can get some of them back. Or is it more fair because with actual prize pack support, you have more incentive to make the best deck you possibly can?
I'm pretty torn on this. Thoughts?
No way is that a bad deal.
1st 6 packs
2nd 5 packs
3rd 3 packs
4th one pack. So 15 packs total for 8 people, my store does pods of 8. three rounds. 1.8 packs per player.
Dega midrange 1-0
$15 draft... all you get for winning is the FNM promo card... and the cards you drafted.
although booster packs are normally $6.5 here... everything is rediclously expensive.
I basically don't buy packs and just draft instead.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
If it's 8 players, 3 rounds, $15 is fair. Look at it this way: $15 gets each player 4.5 boosters (3 boosters for drafting, 1.5 boosters in prizes). The extra packs for 3rd+ and pity packs are gravy.
Redrafts do not alter the total payout, only the distribution of said payout.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yep, 8 players, 3 rounds.
So, $80 goes to the store, and ~40 packs come out... $2/pack...
woahhhhh...
Removing the redraft would be a win-win, IMO.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Personally, I'd never participate in a draft where rares were redrafted at the end, and having it at the end of an otherwise well-supported draft is just a kick in the face to people who might not be very good players, but can feel good about opening a valuable mythic every now and then. Better players still get much more value in the long run even without redrafting.
Then it's fair. The only criticism is that the prize payout is skewed towards the top players.
At the end of 3 rounds, assuming no draws, there will be:
1 player at 3-0
3 players at 2-1
3 players at 1-2
1 player at 0-3
That makes the payout 9-6-4-2-1-1-1-1, or 25 packs total.
Your LGS takes in $15 * 8 = $120. It gives out 3 * 8 + 25 = 49 packs total. That's ~$2.45 per pack. Suffice to say, your LGS is definitely not skimping on prize support.
However, the redraft makes it such that the 1st place finisher walks away with most of the prizes. Most people don't feel good about that, unless that can place first consistently. It'd be perfect if your LGS just skipped the redraft.
To reiterate, though: redrafts do not alter the total payout, only the distribution of said payout. The justification for scrapping the redraft is purely to make players feel less jelly when they don't win. It does not somehow mean that the LGS is shortchanging you.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Yeah, someone is jelly because they lost something they drafted, ESPECIALLY with no warning.
Please tell me some [**SOME**] of those supporting re-drafting, who use this thinking, aren't serious, and are actually able to understand the issues people have with re-drafting enough to summarize it in a less infantile manner than this.
:
Well, no, it's to incentivize drafting for less-skilled players. If you want the draft to be highly competitive, then redrafting encourages that. However, that also drives away the non-competitive players, which represent a fair bit of revenue for the store. It's better to allow the more casual players the chance to take something nice home every once in a while, because that makes them more likely to want to draft. The store takes in more money, competitive players get more prize value in the long run, casual players get something nice every now and then, and everyone's better off.
I did about 6-8 booster drafts with 0 prizes, not even a promo card, by your strange pay out system I would have won a dozen packs and lost an Obzedat which I'm ok with.
Can't believe there are any complaints about your payout system, I mean my drafts are $12 and only 25% of the players win anything.
and wouldnt a re-draft make more sense to put 3 random rares in each person's hands?
Are you actually complaining about that payout? In my experience that is probably the highest payout I have ever seen in a draft.
As much as I've heard about stores that let players go infinite, I've never actually been to a store that allows it. Most of the stores around me will give out credit, but will put a "product-only" restriction on it.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
but that just raises the question, why bother with the re-draft? Generally, re-drafts are for low prize support drafts. Its how they reward the guy who came first. But if they already get that much of a prize, I don't see the need for the re-draft.
the thing is, re-drafts feel pretty bad when, as a new player, you open your first walker and are really stoked, and it ends up with the guy who already has a playset of it. If prize support can feed that guy, then leave the rares as is, IMO
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
"Lost"? You don't own the product until after the event or you drop.
"No warning"? The thread starter obviously knows that there is a redraft. It's not like the TO told him that there wouldn't be a redraft, then went back on his word later.
From the POV of the LGS, all they know is that they take in $X and give out Y boosters. Whether player A or player B walks home with the foil Scavenging Ooze is of little concern to them.
However, if they want the continued business of their customers, they have to offer what the majority of their customers want. If the majority of their customers are going to feel bad when they open a money card only to have it redrafted, despite the fact that they were informed of the possibility of such an occurrence before they entered the draft, then the LGS owner just has to bite his tongue.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Also most redrafts let you keep your foils so there is 24 rares every time.
That absolutely defeats the purpose of credit, especially if they don't have cards in stock that you need or want. More so, it really invalidates the point of credit at a store... I've come into my LGS, handed them a 20, told them to use the amount needed for the FNM and put the rest on credit because I knew I'd use it for an event eventually. I've gone infinite for a few sets, but not all sets. Here are a few things stores should consider:
1.) Credit being used is cash being used. Sure, you can restrict it to product, and not allow it to be used for events, but you still have to purchase that product and in reality if I buy cards I see as below the right value in your case you're losing as much if not more as if you let me just use that money to re-enter the event. Either I can buy cards, or I can buy events, events usually have a lower profit margin than singles, you're choice if you want to lose money.
2.) Store credit being allowed for events keeps people coming back and paying you more cash. I live in an area that isn't exactly fiscally affluent, and a lot of players can't always justify the full amount for an FNM, but then can justify a partial payment. So buy awarding credit to x-1 players, and letting them use that credit to pay for partial re-entry gives you more cash, not less. In short, a player with 10 credit and 5 dollars can enter a draft and you get 5 dollars, a player with 10 credit that can only use it on product will buy product and skip next week... You actually stand to make more by allowing players to pay partially in credit, and you keep attendance up which helps with product allocation and such for your store.
3.) A store that offers the infinite incentive will beat the one that pays more in packs. This actually happened where I moved to, one store offered cheaper drafts with theoretical higher pay out, and the other offered store credit that could be used for anything and everything. The incentive for players to go infinite attracted better players and as such pulled in the players that wanted to improve. These days the store that offered unrestricted credit has a flourishing community while the other store is a footnote in magic event history.
4.) Are these people stupid? Store credit is store credit, don't devalue the meaning of it by not allowing it to be used on stuff... Can you imagine walking into a Dunkin' Donuts and them telling you that you can only use it on Donuts but not coffee? I'd tell them to go to hell in a second.