In my local FNM last night, I'm fairly certain that one of my opponents was cheating.
In at least two games of the round, while looking at my hand to figure out what options I had, I could barely make out him tilting the top cards of his library one by one (though quickishly) and then moving several of them to the bottom. He did this on at least four separate occasions, not always moving the cards to the bottom (obviously gaining unfair information regardless).
I never called him out on it, but I noticed that he stopped when someone walked over to watch the end of the round. I know that competitively, you're not there to make friends, but I just don't like being that guy. I just barely won the round, but I figured I should still ask here.
What is the most appropriate way to handle this situation once I catch on to what he's doing? I don't think I'd have any way to prove what he did.
What kind of penalties would this behavior result in and does that change based on type of event?
The correct answer to "I saw my opponent doing something I think is illegal, what should I do" in a tournament is always, without any exception whatsoever "immediately call a judge and explain what you saw."
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Although I doubt anyone could slip a card to the bottom of his deck without people knowing. There's a guy at my FNM who often flips the corners of his library when he is losing, blatantly trying to look at the next card coming. I just tell him "Hey, let's not cheat" and he stops.
Hopefully immediately followed by calling a judge.
Deliberately looking at extra cards to gain an advantage is Cheating - Hidden Information Violation. The penalty for cheating at any REL (even Regular) is disqualification.
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You MUST call a judge right away as soon as you see the cheating. You may talk to the judge away from the table if you like. Explain the situation calmly and objectively.
The judge will carry out an investigation, if one is necessary. If the player is found to be cheating, he will be disqualified from the tournament and the incident will be reported to the DCI. Repeat cheaters will have their DCI memberships suspended so that they cannot play in sanctioned tournaments.
Even if your accusation cannot be confirmed, it is still important that you bring it up to the judge. If the player is accused of the same thing at a later date, your prior allegation may be important evidence.
If you do not call a judge, the player will continue to cheat, and other players will be the victims.
Probably not. What I meant is that it's an ethical obligation.
However, seeing someone cheat and deliberately being silent about it could be seen as being an accomplice to the cheating. I wouldn't personally see it that way in this case, but if I were the person this guy played in the next round and I lost because he cheated, I might see it that way.
Must I? Am I at risk of penalty by allowing him to cheat?
Technically yes. Both players are responsible for maintaining a correct game state. By allowing an opponent to cheat, you are allowing an incorrect game state to exist. As others said... don't be afraid. Report it. When the cheater gives you the stinkeye, stand your ground and say "I saw you tugging at the top card of your deck and taking a look. That's cheating. And when you do it again I will call the judge again so cut it out."
Must I? Am I at risk of penalty by allowing him to cheat?
Possibly, yes. If you know that your opponent has committed an infraction, and deliberately avoid reporting it to a judge because you might gain an advantage by doing so, that could be construed as Cheating - Fraud.
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I know that competitively, you're not there to make friends, but I just don't like being that guy.
Wait, what? Reporting a cheater makes you "that guy"??? Look, the only way cheaters will ever stop is if they don't get away with it. And while no one should cheat at any level, the fact that someone would actually cheat at an introductory, entry-level form of play like an FNM shows truly deplorable character.
The bottom line is that a cheater will just keep cheating if not exposed. You're not just doing a disservice to yourself by allowing the guy to keep cheating you, but also a disservice to the game community at large because he's going to keep doing it to everyone else. That's why I feel there's a very strong ethical obligation to report cheaters.
If you don't want to confront the cheater directly or call over a judge in front of the cheater, then find a reason to leave the table. Say that you need to use the restroom or are going to the water fountain, even wait until between rounds if you want, and go talk to a judge or the TO. Just do whatever it takes. I remember seeing a youtube video interview with a competitor at Worlds who noticed his opponent cheating and said he left the table with the excuse that he needed to get another land.
Standard Mono-Green Aggro Modern :symb::0mana: Dark Affinity | :symu::symr: UR Breach | :symb::symr: Dark Burn Casual :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Bruna Reanimator (Standard) My LGS is Asgard Games in Houston, TX.
Call the judge immediatly any time you think your opponent might be cheating.
The judge may find that there is not enough evidence to act on but, after a couple times on the same person the judge will act
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Say that you need to use the restroom or are going to the water fountain, even wait until between rounds if you want, and go talk to a judge or the TO.
No. Don't wait until the round is over. Call the judge immediately. Waiting until the round is over means that it's harder for the judge to investigate (the "evidence" has already been put away).
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I have a legitimate question for the people who are advocating any course of action other than "immediately call a judge". Why do you think doing something else (waiting, telling the opponent to stop, ignoring it, etc.) is a better idea? I don't mean this to be trolling; if we know why you'd prefer to do something else, it may make it easier to explain why calling a judge is the best option.
I have a legitimate question for the people who are advocating any course of action other than "immediately call a judge". Why do you think doing something else (waiting, telling the opponent to stop, ignoring it, etc.) is a better idea? I don't mean this to be trolling; if we know why you'd prefer to do something else, it may make it easier to explain why calling a judge is the best option.
I suppose it's kind of like a social etiquette thing. FNMs are supposed to be casual, friendly tournaments so to call a judge for only a suspicion seems kind of harsh, and regardless of whether you're right or wrong, calling a judge is going to change the way that people will approach you. Another unfortunate factor is that popularity plays a part too: if you're new to a store (and relatively inexperienced), then one might hesitate to call a judge against a store regular, especially awkward if you're playing against a judge.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I had a related question of my own and wasn't sure if I should start a new thread for it. I suspect one guy at my store of cheating, but it's not something easily called. He's playing RDW and has on multiple occasions tried to recur a Chandra's Phoenix after burning a creature. I noticed it one match while I was sitting beside his game, but he also tried to do it against me despite being told earlier that Phoenix didn't work that way.
Secondly, and I admit there is a bit of sore-loserness with this point, I suspect him of having more than 4x of certain cards in his deck. Over a few weeks, I've watched his games and his T1 Stromkirk, T2 Berserker, T3 Phoenix/Shrine is a little too consistent, even for RDW. Is there a socially acceptable way to call for a deck check? And what do we do if he does indeed have more than four of each? He'll likely claim it was a mistake so the TO will probably choose to side with him, since no one likes to DQ people.
Basically, if you want to open packs to get cards for Standard and Modern, the simpler approach is to just buy all the singles you need and then set some money on fire to make up the difference.
I suppose it's kind of like a social etiquette thing.
I would argue that, if your opponent is deliberately breaking the rules of the game, then he's already breached social etiquette to a much greater degree than you would by calling a judge.
FNMs are supposed to be casual, friendly tournaments so to call a judge for only a suspicion seems kind of harsh, and regardless of whether you're right or wrong, calling a judge is going to change the way that people will approach you.
They're also supposed to be tournaments where judges can help players understand the rules of the game to prepare them for larger tournaments. Judges can't do that if they don't know players are breaking the rules.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I had a related question of my own and wasn't sure if I should start a new thread for it. I suspect one guy at my store of cheating, but it's not something easily called. He's playing RDW and has on multiple occasions tried to recur a Chandra's Phoenix after burning a creature. I noticed it one match while I was sitting beside his game, but he also tried to do it against me despite being told earlier that Phoenix didn't work that way.
Then call the judge and explain the situation.
Secondly, and I admit there is a bit of sore-loserness with this point, I suspect him of having more than 4x of certain cards in his deck. Over a few weeks, I've watched his games and his T1 Stromkirk, T2 Berserker, T3 Phoenix/Shrine is a little too consistent, even for RDW. Is there a socially acceptable way to call for a deck check?
Yes. Call for a judge and state your concern, then let the judge decide what to do next.
And what do we do if he does indeed have more than four of each? He'll likely claim it was a mistake so the TO will probably choose to side with him, since no one likes to DQ people.
If by "we" you mean the other players, then the only thing you can do is call the judge and explain. It's then up to the judge how to deal with the situation from there.
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Seriously. You would wait to tell a judge to be polite to someone that is cheating against you? That makes no sense. There is being polite and then there is allowing people to walk all over you.
To the OP, I really don't understand how you can just barely make out someone looking at the top cards of their library. Their fingers should not be anywhere near their library if they aren't interacting with it because of a card or a draw step. You act as if there was a subtle way for your opponent to continuously mess around with his deck, and even move cards to the bottom? Those are obvious, grandiose, and fearless methods of cheating.
Well, some people just "don't get" that there are certain times you are allowed to be a "jerk". If someone steals you car, you don't sit their and try to look busy while debating to call someone. You call the god damn police.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Yeah the last tournament I was in I caught a guy cheating he lost because he didn't pay for his Summoner's Pact. Then I told him that he lost and he said NO! I haven't drawn yet????? BS Then he said that I don't have a choice to pay for it I have to! I can't stand people like this it makes tournaments a ton less appealing.
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No. Don't wait until the round is over. Call the judge immediately. Waiting until the round is over means that it's harder for the judge to investigate (the "evidence" has already been put away).
I agree completely. I was just trying to provide alternatives to those who may be too sensitive about confronting a person directly.
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Standard Mono-Green Aggro Modern :symb::0mana: Dark Affinity | :symu::symr: UR Breach | :symb::symr: Dark Burn Casual :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Bruna Reanimator (Standard) My LGS is Asgard Games in Houston, TX.
Last FNM one of my opponents was playing with Mirror-Mad Phantasm (I'm new to mtgs so I don't know how to make card links right now) and he used the activated ability and put MMP back in his deck. But he had see through sleeves and I noticed he put MMP in backwards and carefully shuffled it to the bottom of his library. I cut, picking up every card until I got to the backwards one and stopped. Then I said, "I saw you turn MMP backwards and I know you cheated." other players heard it. He flipped it over and it was MMP.
I would argue that, if your opponent is deliberately breaking the rules of the game, then he's already breached social etiquette to a much greater degree than you would by calling a judge.
They're also supposed to be tournaments where judges can help players understand the rules of the game to prepare them for larger tournaments. Judges can't do that if they don't know players are breaking the rules.
Then call the judge and explain the situation.
Yes. Call for a judge and state your concern, then let the judge decide what to do next.
If by "we" you mean the other players, then the only thing you can do is call the judge and explain. It's then up to the judge how to deal with the situation from there.
Although you bring up valid points, some of them assume that I am certain of the opponent cheating. If I am indeed mistaken, then I look like the guy who just resorted to low tactics to score a free win because I lost round 1. I'm sure we've all heard the story of a guy at a PTQ who calls a judge for a deck check before even introducing themselves, and no one wants to be him.
You also didn't really respond to the negative connotations that the very action of calling a judge comes attached to. Another factor to consider is that deck checks and such take up valuable time, especially in an environment when four rounds are squeezed into three and a half hours since the store has to close. If I'm playing a control mirror and I won game 1, then calling a judge in that environment would make it look like I was stalling.
Well, some people just "don't get" that there are certain times you are allowed to be a "jerk". If someone steals you car, you don't sit their and try to look busy while debating to call someone. You call the god damn police.
True, but do you call the cops if it just looks like someone's trying to steal your car because he parked near you, drove the same make and model, and didn't check the license plates?
(Unrelated: I edited my post, and instead of the "Save" button it said "Vote Now". I clicked it anyway since there was no "Save" and it was in the same place "Save" would have been. It's fine as of this edit, but I thought I should bring it to someone's attention. Is this normal?)
Basically, if you want to open packs to get cards for Standard and Modern, the simpler approach is to just buy all the singles you need and then set some money on fire to make up the difference.
Although you bring up valid points, some of them assume that I am certain of the opponent cheating.
Not really. All they have to assume is that you have seen your opponent do something that you believe violates the rules of the game. That alone is enough to call a judge.
You don't have to assume "cheating," which according to the DCI requires intent to break the rules to gain an advantage. Whether such intent was present is something the judge will determine during an investigation.
If I am indeed mistaken, then I look like the guy who just resorted to low tactics to score a free win because I lost round 1.
Your responsibility as a player is simply to notify a judge immediately once you believe your opponent has done something illegal, and provide the judge with as much information as possible about the situation. You don't decide what infraction was committed or what penalty is assessed; that's the judge's decision.
If the judge believes that the player did nothing wrong, then no infraction will be issued. If the judge believes an infraction was incurred but was not intentional, you don't have to worry about "scoring a free win" because the judge will issue some lesser corrective action.
You also didn't really respond to the negative connotations that the very action of calling a judge comes attached to.
Primarily because I think players should stop believing such things. Players need to understand that their failure to call a judge when they see an opponent do something illegal can (especially at higher RELs) have negative repercussions for them as well.
Another factor to consider is that deck checks and such take up valuable time, especially in an environment when four rounds are squeezed into three and a half hours since the store has to close. If I'm playing a control mirror and I won game 1, then calling a judge in that environment would make it look like I was stalling.
Again, as the player your responsibility is simply to voice your concerns to the judge. It's up to the judge as to how to proceed from there. The judge doesn't have to perform a deck check simply because you called him.
I have a legitimate question for the people who are advocating any course of action other than "immediately call a judge". Why do you think doing something else (waiting, telling the opponent to stop, ignoring it, etc.) is a better idea? I don't mean this to be trolling; if we know why you'd prefer to do something else, it may make it easier to explain why calling a judge is the best option.
If there's nothing on the line (no prizes, a free FNM with no prizes) then there's no point in embarrasing the guy or making a big deal out of it. It's basic social behavior: acting like a nerdy rules lawyer over nothing isn't going to make you any friends. And the ramificaitons of being known as "that guy" that no one likes cause you snap call a judge every time you think you see something outweigh a magic game with nothing on the line.
If someones cheating with nothing on the line, tell them to stop. If they don't do play with them. Simple
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In at least two games of the round, while looking at my hand to figure out what options I had, I could barely make out him tilting the top cards of his library one by one (though quickishly) and then moving several of them to the bottom. He did this on at least four separate occasions, not always moving the cards to the bottom (obviously gaining unfair information regardless).
I never called him out on it, but I noticed that he stopped when someone walked over to watch the end of the round. I know that competitively, you're not there to make friends, but I just don't like being that guy. I just barely won the round, but I figured I should still ask here.
What is the most appropriate way to handle this situation once I catch on to what he's doing? I don't think I'd have any way to prove what he did.
What kind of penalties would this behavior result in and does that change based on type of event?
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
Although I doubt anyone could slip a card to the bottom of his deck without people knowing. There's a guy at my FNM who often flips the corners of his library when he is losing, blatantly trying to look at the next card coming. I just tell him "Hey, let's not cheat" and he stops.
Hopefully immediately followed by calling a judge.
Deliberately looking at extra cards to gain an advantage is Cheating - Hidden Information Violation. The penalty for cheating at any REL (even Regular) is disqualification.
The judge will carry out an investigation, if one is necessary. If the player is found to be cheating, he will be disqualified from the tournament and the incident will be reported to the DCI. Repeat cheaters will have their DCI memberships suspended so that they cannot play in sanctioned tournaments.
Even if your accusation cannot be confirmed, it is still important that you bring it up to the judge. If the player is accused of the same thing at a later date, your prior allegation may be important evidence.
If you do not call a judge, the player will continue to cheat, and other players will be the victims.
Older Magic as a Board Game: Panglacial Wurm , Mill
However, seeing someone cheat and deliberately being silent about it could be seen as being an accomplice to the cheating. I wouldn't personally see it that way in this case, but if I were the person this guy played in the next round and I lost because he cheated, I might see it that way.
Technically yes. Both players are responsible for maintaining a correct game state. By allowing an opponent to cheat, you are allowing an incorrect game state to exist. As others said... don't be afraid. Report it. When the cheater gives you the stinkeye, stand your ground and say "I saw you tugging at the top card of your deck and taking a look. That's cheating. And when you do it again I will call the judge again so cut it out."
Possibly, yes. If you know that your opponent has committed an infraction, and deliberately avoid reporting it to a judge because you might gain an advantage by doing so, that could be construed as Cheating - Fraud.
Wait, what? Reporting a cheater makes you "that guy"??? Look, the only way cheaters will ever stop is if they don't get away with it. And while no one should cheat at any level, the fact that someone would actually cheat at an introductory, entry-level form of play like an FNM shows truly deplorable character.
The bottom line is that a cheater will just keep cheating if not exposed. You're not just doing a disservice to yourself by allowing the guy to keep cheating you, but also a disservice to the game community at large because he's going to keep doing it to everyone else. That's why I feel there's a very strong ethical obligation to report cheaters.
If you don't want to confront the cheater directly or call over a judge in front of the cheater, then find a reason to leave the table. Say that you need to use the restroom or are going to the water fountain, even wait until between rounds if you want, and go talk to a judge or the TO. Just do whatever it takes. I remember seeing a youtube video interview with a competitor at Worlds who noticed his opponent cheating and said he left the table with the excuse that he needed to get another land.
Modern :symb::0mana: Dark Affinity | :symu::symr: UR Breach | :symb::symr: Dark Burn
Casual :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Bruna Reanimator (Standard)
My LGS is Asgard Games in Houston, TX.
The judge may find that there is not enough evidence to act on but, after a couple times on the same person the judge will act
BEtched Champion/InfectB
WSoilders/knightsW
WUVenser SplicerWU
RRDWR
GFeed the Pack comboG
WUPool of ExhaustionWU
EDH
GEzuri, Elf OverrunG
BGeth, GraverobberB
UThada Adel, ThiefU
RUrabrask, Big RedR
WElesh Norn, CrusadeW
WUGAngus Makenzie, Bant ControlWUG
Extended
WGElvesWG
Legacy
RGoblinsR
UBGFariesUBG
UBGRaffinityUBG
No. Don't wait until the round is over. Call the judge immediately. Waiting until the round is over means that it's harder for the judge to investigate (the "evidence" has already been put away).
I suppose it's kind of like a social etiquette thing. FNMs are supposed to be casual, friendly tournaments so to call a judge for only a suspicion seems kind of harsh, and regardless of whether you're right or wrong, calling a judge is going to change the way that people will approach you. Another unfortunate factor is that popularity plays a part too: if you're new to a store (and relatively inexperienced), then one might hesitate to call a judge against a store regular, especially awkward if you're playing against a judge.
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I had a related question of my own and wasn't sure if I should start a new thread for it. I suspect one guy at my store of cheating, but it's not something easily called. He's playing RDW and has on multiple occasions tried to recur a Chandra's Phoenix after burning a creature. I noticed it one match while I was sitting beside his game, but he also tried to do it against me despite being told earlier that Phoenix didn't work that way.
Secondly, and I admit there is a bit of sore-loserness with this point, I suspect him of having more than 4x of certain cards in his deck. Over a few weeks, I've watched his games and his T1 Stromkirk, T2 Berserker, T3 Phoenix/Shrine is a little too consistent, even for RDW. Is there a socially acceptable way to call for a deck check? And what do we do if he does indeed have more than four of each? He'll likely claim it was a mistake so the TO will probably choose to side with him, since no one likes to DQ people.
I would argue that, if your opponent is deliberately breaking the rules of the game, then he's already breached social etiquette to a much greater degree than you would by calling a judge.
They're also supposed to be tournaments where judges can help players understand the rules of the game to prepare them for larger tournaments. Judges can't do that if they don't know players are breaking the rules.
Then call the judge and explain the situation.
Yes. Call for a judge and state your concern, then let the judge decide what to do next.
If by "we" you mean the other players, then the only thing you can do is call the judge and explain. It's then up to the judge how to deal with the situation from there.
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- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
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I agree completely. I was just trying to provide alternatives to those who may be too sensitive about confronting a person directly.
Modern :symb::0mana: Dark Affinity | :symu::symr: UR Breach | :symb::symr: Dark Burn
Casual :symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Bruna Reanimator (Standard)
My LGS is Asgard Games in Houston, TX.
Why did you play Confusion in the Ranks ?! and Hunted Dragon ?! It's so CONFUSING!
Although you bring up valid points, some of them assume that I am certain of the opponent cheating. If I am indeed mistaken, then I look like the guy who just resorted to low tactics to score a free win because I lost round 1. I'm sure we've all heard the story of a guy at a PTQ who calls a judge for a deck check before even introducing themselves, and no one wants to be him.
You also didn't really respond to the negative connotations that the very action of calling a judge comes attached to. Another factor to consider is that deck checks and such take up valuable time, especially in an environment when four rounds are squeezed into three and a half hours since the store has to close. If I'm playing a control mirror and I won game 1, then calling a judge in that environment would make it look like I was stalling.
True, but do you call the cops if it just looks like someone's trying to steal your car because he parked near you, drove the same make and model, and didn't check the license plates?
(Unrelated: I edited my post, and instead of the "Save" button it said "Vote Now". I clicked it anyway since there was no "Save" and it was in the same place "Save" would have been. It's fine as of this edit, but I thought I should bring it to someone's attention. Is this normal?)
Not really. All they have to assume is that you have seen your opponent do something that you believe violates the rules of the game. That alone is enough to call a judge.
You don't have to assume "cheating," which according to the DCI requires intent to break the rules to gain an advantage. Whether such intent was present is something the judge will determine during an investigation.
Your responsibility as a player is simply to notify a judge immediately once you believe your opponent has done something illegal, and provide the judge with as much information as possible about the situation. You don't decide what infraction was committed or what penalty is assessed; that's the judge's decision.
If the judge believes that the player did nothing wrong, then no infraction will be issued. If the judge believes an infraction was incurred but was not intentional, you don't have to worry about "scoring a free win" because the judge will issue some lesser corrective action.
Primarily because I think players should stop believing such things. Players need to understand that their failure to call a judge when they see an opponent do something illegal can (especially at higher RELs) have negative repercussions for them as well.
Again, as the player your responsibility is simply to voice your concerns to the judge. It's up to the judge as to how to proceed from there. The judge doesn't have to perform a deck check simply because you called him.
If there's nothing on the line (no prizes, a free FNM with no prizes) then there's no point in embarrasing the guy or making a big deal out of it. It's basic social behavior: acting like a nerdy rules lawyer over nothing isn't going to make you any friends. And the ramificaitons of being known as "that guy" that no one likes cause you snap call a judge every time you think you see something outweigh a magic game with nothing on the line.
If someones cheating with nothing on the line, tell them to stop. If they don't do play with them. Simple