I'm talking about what you see the professionals do during big events. I usually don't watch event coverage, but I did watch the PotY match. Ever since watching that my buddy has picked up the exact same habits they had. I'm talking about tapping your cards when you draw, shuffling your hand really fast and then flicking the bottom, and then putting it down and glancing into the air. Then there is the annoying "hand swish" that means go. Is there any purpose to this at all?
Generally we play casual or friendly drafts and it kind of annoys me. Is it just people trying to imitate the pros?
Being a new player I also find this curious. I guess it can be equated to shuffling poker chips, which I actually do when I play live poker. With poker it's more of a there's-nothing-else-to-do type thing, I can only assume the card shuffling is similar. Although I don't see myself ever constantly shuffling my cards as if I have OCD.
Have you ever drawn a card then shuffled your hand an then played something? The shuffling is to prevent your opponent knowing if what has been played was already in your hand or drawn. Or to not let your opponent know whether the card you discarded for Merfolk Looter is the same card you drew.
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MTGS: You guys do not speak for the wider Magic community despite what you guys think.
708th at Grand Prix: Toronto 2013
Modern: U/R Delver, RUG Scapeshift, Pod
Standard: Jeskai Tempo
Legacy: Dredge, Burn
Pauper: Mono-U Delver
EDH: Ghave, Token Master
I signed up to post to respond to this topic, I'm deaf and I find that the flickings, rolling eyes, and hand flicking is in actuality "visual" cues of the phases and I find it very useful especially the hand "go" motions.
Have you ever drawn a card then shuffled your hand an then played something? The shuffling is to prevent your opponent knowing if what has been played was already in your hand or drawn. Or to not let your opponent know whether the card you discarded for Merfolk Looter is the same card you drew.
That's something I never considered, but I think one cycle would be sufficient to accomplish that, most I see are doing it constantly (which is probably just habit).
I was watching some SCG coverage yesterday and I noticed one player who would shuffle on a draw a few times, but always put his cards face down on the table when it was his opponents turn.
Different players all have different habits of course.
When I shuffle and flick my cards through my hand its because of a few things.
1. To prevent my opponent from knowing which card I drew and which I'm playing.
2. I tend to do I while I'm thinking about what playing I'm going to make, especially if I have a few different options.
3. Just a habit I guess. Still keeps me thinking about all the cards I have in my hand at all times so I don't forget about anything or any option in whatever situation it may be.
Edit: I do also put my hand down at various times during both my turn when I'm thinking and my opponents when I'm not doing anything else but waiting for my opponent to play.
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Decks:
Standard: UWB Control
Modern: UWR Midrange/Control UW Control
EDH: BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher G Omnath, Locus of Mana BUG The Mimeoplasm
It's simple... nervous habit. I know I do it with any game. With Magic as well it is a bit of a "hand manipulation." If I show you my hand and you know my third card over is X card... I might want to change the order a bit so you don't know what I'm planning. I also tend to move cards around to remind myself of optimal plays, so I don't let nerves get the better of my play.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
Yea. I actually have a TON of nervous habits other than just flicking cards. I probably picked it up from other players doing it around me when I started playing. It gives you something to do and personally, it helps me concentrate sometimes.
Skullclamp cannot really be considered a best for it was banned upon release. I think the best card/most broken card on that list has to be Bloodbraid Elf. That card was too busted.
I'm talking about what you see the professionals do during big events. I usually don't watch event coverage, but I did watch the PotY match. Ever since watching that my buddy has picked up the exact same habits they had. I'm talking about tapping your cards when you draw, shuffling your hand really fast and then flicking the bottom, and then putting it down and glancing into the air. Then there is the annoying "hand swish" that means go. Is there any purpose to this at all?
Generally we play casual or friendly drafts and it kind of annoys me. Is it just people trying to imitate the pros?
I flip through the cards in my hand all the time. Picked it up somewhere and now it's just a restless habit. It helps me to have my hands doing something. I'd have to exert conscious effort to keep myself from doing it, and as others have said it keeps me aware of all the cards in my hand.
I actually find the flick of the wrist to show the passing of the turn helpful. Magic is a game with a very carefully defined structure, and yet efficient play requires that most of that structure be skipped over. It gets tedious and/or confusing to go through the phases using only verbal means, so any nonverbal cues that can be given are nice.
By tapping your cards when you draw, I'm assuming you mean tapping/slapping them onto the table and then dragging/flipping them up into your hand. I don't really get where that one came from either, and I try not to abuse my cards/sleeves any more than I have to. That said, it doesn't bother me when people do it.
I knew a guy at the card shop I frequented in college who held his cards so tightly all of his decks were curved. He asked one time if he could borrow a card for a tournament, and I think I looked at him like he asked if he could set my pants on fire. He seemed to have no idea that other people might not want their cards completely warped.
There were some studies that showed that walking/leg movements helped generate thought (which is why some of us walk in circles/back and forth while talking on the phone), so maybe hand movements have a similar effect?
Have you ever drawn a card then shuffled your hand an then played something? The shuffling is to prevent your opponent knowing if what has been played was already in your hand or drawn. Or to not let your opponent know whether the card you discarded for Merfolk Looter is the same card you drew.
I totally understand that, and I'll do a quick lil shuffle of my hand when I first draw just to try and make sure it's not obvious that I just topdecks a land and put it straight into play without it ever hitting my hand.
But I think the OP is talking about those damn kids who like obsessively do that crap every friggin moment of the game, during your turn, while they're thinking, whilst you're thinking, etc....
That constant "Flick, flick, flick, flick, flick" that just makes them look like they're playing whilst tweeking out on meth or they have some kind of nervous condition. Yet for some reason, this is considered "pro" and "cool" despite it making the player look like an annoying jackass. For christ's sake kiddo, take some Valium before the tourny or something.
What's worse is that these guys always have to start putting on the facade of like being "super serious" about the game too. They always look like they're unhappy to even be playing, like every moment of thought is painful and they're struggling through it. And what's worse is that with some people it starts to spread over into their personality outside the game. Even whilst not playing, they become withdrawn and cold and come across as if they literally have no sense of humour whatsoever.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with taking the game seriously and really focusing on your game and trying to be the best player you can be. But it doesn't even look like these guys enjoy it. I can't understand how anyone would want to actually be friends with these people unless they're in that same lame-ass mindset and just looking for other humourless douchebags to play with.
I do that sometimes. I find out it makes my opponent's concentrate less because they start looking at me. I think it's a useful technique
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, you understand that's kind of unsporting right? I mean, under that logic, why not start hitting the table with your hand and shouting "HEY! COME ON! PLAY SOMETHING, PLAY SOMETHING!!!" It seems I'm the only one here, as I've brought this up before. But the idea of "outside game" distractions just seems like something only a tool would do.
People are admitting that "annoying and distracting the opponent" are part of the reason they do this crap. If people are good enough players, they shouldn't have to rely on crap like that to win their games nor should it be part of their "Strategy".
I totally understand that, and I'll do a quick lil shuffle of my hand when I first draw just to try and make sure it's not obvious that I just topdecks a land and put it straight into play without it ever hitting my hand.
But I think the OP is talking about those damn kids who like obsessively do that crap every friggin moment of the game, during your turn, while they're thinking, whilst you're thinking, etc....
That constant "Flick, flick, flick, flick, flick" that just makes them look like they're playing whilst tweeking out on meth or they have some kind of nervous condition. Yet for some reason, this is considered "pro" and "cool" despite it making the player look like an annoying jackass. For christ's sake kiddo, take some Valium before the tourny or something.
What's worse is that these guys always have to start putting on the facade of like being "super serious" about the game too. They always look like they're unhappy to even be playing, like every moment of thought is painful and they're struggling through it. And what's worse is that with some people it starts to spread over into their personality outside the game. Even whilst not playing, they become withdrawn and cold and come across as if they literally have no sense of humour whatsoever.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with taking the game seriously and really focusing on your game and trying to be the best player you can be. But it doesn't even look like these guys enjoy it. I can't understand how anyone would want to actually be friends with these people unless they're in that same lame-ass mindset and just looking for other humourless douchebags to play with.
The whole thing is just lame and contrived BS.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, you understand that's kind of unsporting right? I mean, under that logic, why not start hitting the table with your hand and shouting "HEY! COME ON! PLAY SOMETHING, PLAY SOMETHING!!!" It seems I'm the only one here, as I've brought this up before. But the idea of "outside game" distractions just seems like something only a tool would do.
People are admitting that "annoying and distracting the opponent" are part of the reason they do this crap. If people are good enough players, they shouldn't have to rely on crap like that to win their games nor should it be part of their "Strategy".
Agreed. Its not "pro". Its a jackass move. The only difference between flicking the card for the purpose of getting an "edge", and pounding the table to get an "edge" is a difference of degree.
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WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
People are admitting that "annoying and distracting the opponent" are part of the reason they do this crap. If people are good enough players, they shouldn't have to rely on crap like that to win their games nor should it be part of their "Strategy".
Well, Magic is a card game you play against another person. Things like bluffing and deception are valid and active parts of playing this game, which all takes place 'off table' so to speak. I don't see why distracting your opponent in a non disruptive way (like yelling) isn't a valid tactic. If you look at poker, also a card game where you're playing against other players, talking and prodding your opponents is part of the game. Getting someone on tilt and making them misplay is a valid strategy and a legitimate part of the game.
I don't see why Magic would be any different. Much like poker, a lot of people don't incorporate that into their game plan, but it doesn't make people who do any worse at the game. You can't blame someone for trying to get any extra edge they can against their opponent.
Well, Magic is a card game you play against another person. Things like bluffing and deception are valid and active parts of playing this game, which all takes place 'off table' so to speak. I don't see why distracting your opponent in a non disruptive way (like yelling) isn't a valid tactic. If you look at poker, also a card game where you're playing against other players, talking and prodding your opponents is part of the game. Getting someone on tilt and making them misplay is a valid strategy and a legitimate part of the game.
I don't see why Magic would be any different. Much like poker, a lot of people don't incorporate that into their game plan, but it doesn't make people who do any worse at the game. You can't blame someone for trying to get any extra edge they can against their opponent.
In my opinion, at least.
Isn't the very reason flicking your cards is distracting is because it's disruptive? Albeit not as disruptive as spitting on your opponent during the game, but disruptive nevertheless.
And I could understand deception in the sense of like looking at your hand and going "ummmmmm, hold on" when they cast something to imply that you might have a counter even if you don't. But that's at least still "in-game" stuff more or less.
I can indeed blame someone for getting an extra edge if it involves being an annoying tool during the game.
By tapping your cards when you draw, I'm assuming you mean tapping/slapping them onto the table and then dragging/flipping them up into your hand. I don't really get where that one came from either, and I try not to abuse my cards/sleeves any more than I have to. That said, it doesn't bother me when people do it.
As far as I am aware, the primary reason for dragging a card along the table before putting it into your hand is three-fold: It gives time before you see the card for your opponent to do something in your upkeep, it gives you time to think about your upkeep before drawing (and therefore try not to miss triggers etc), and to minimize the risk of accidentally drawing/seeing more cards than you're supposed to (which can be very costly).
More on Topic: I flick my cards as a nervous habit. I tend to do it more when I'm making a difficult decision about what to play - flicking the various options around in my hand.
Also: If someone is annoying you during a game, you're well within your rights to ask them to stop. If they refuse, you can get a judge over. It's more useful if someone is hurrying you or something, but it could apply to flicking cards, especially if you feel it is malicious. (Although I've never known anyone who does it on purpose to annoy.)
I can indeed blame someone for getting an extra edge if it involves being an annoying tool during the game.
So then the question is what makes Magic any different from Hold'Em in terms of etiquette? Why can I say whatever I want to my opponent in poker, but can't flick a card in Magic?
Many people put lands on their right side of their hand. It's an information give away that many pro's don't want to give. So they often flick their cards around constantly to not give away information. I think it was mentioned in the World Championship match between Frank Karsten and (don't remember the name) in (which ever year Karsten came in 2nd).
It's Nick Spagnolo vs Pat Chapin. Spagnolo is rightfully scared ☺☺☺☺less: he is playing against Chapin; using a non-mainstream deck; against an opponent who is a master of his own archetype; under the feature match camera.
It's a long vid but you can get a good glimpse of the situation around 28:00. Viewers in the live chat started a running count of how many times Nick touched his library and graveyard. By game 3 it was at least 106.
The funny thing is that Chapin is the one everyone thinks is on drugs.
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Generally we play casual or friendly drafts and it kind of annoys me. Is it just people trying to imitate the pros?
:EDH:
WR Gisela, Blade of Goldnight (HOLD/100) WR
WB Teysa, Orzhov Scion (HOLD/100) WB
708th at Grand Prix: Toronto 2013
Modern: U/R Delver, RUG Scapeshift, Pod
Standard: Jeskai Tempo
Legacy: Dredge, Burn
Pauper: Mono-U Delver
EDH: Ghave, Token Master
That's something I never considered, but I think one cycle would be sufficient to accomplish that, most I see are doing it constantly (which is probably just habit).
I was watching some SCG coverage yesterday and I noticed one player who would shuffle on a draw a few times, but always put his cards face down on the table when it was his opponents turn.
When I shuffle and flick my cards through my hand its because of a few things.
1. To prevent my opponent from knowing which card I drew and which I'm playing.
2. I tend to do I while I'm thinking about what playing I'm going to make, especially if I have a few different options.
3. Just a habit I guess. Still keeps me thinking about all the cards I have in my hand at all times so I don't forget about anything or any option in whatever situation it may be.
Edit: I do also put my hand down at various times during both my turn when I'm thinking and my opponents when I'm not doing anything else but waiting for my opponent to play.
Standard:
UWB Control
Modern:
UWR Midrange/Control
UW Control
EDH:
BRG Prossh, Skyraider of Kher
G Omnath, Locus of Mana
BUG The Mimeoplasm
I don't think that's a fair statement. I don't see how me doing that really gives me an advantage.
Same. Habits sometimes just are like that.
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Yea. I actually have a TON of nervous habits other than just flicking cards. I probably picked it up from other players doing it around me when I started playing. It gives you something to do and personally, it helps me concentrate sometimes.
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I flip through the cards in my hand all the time. Picked it up somewhere and now it's just a restless habit. It helps me to have my hands doing something. I'd have to exert conscious effort to keep myself from doing it, and as others have said it keeps me aware of all the cards in my hand.
I actually find the flick of the wrist to show the passing of the turn helpful. Magic is a game with a very carefully defined structure, and yet efficient play requires that most of that structure be skipped over. It gets tedious and/or confusing to go through the phases using only verbal means, so any nonverbal cues that can be given are nice.
By tapping your cards when you draw, I'm assuming you mean tapping/slapping them onto the table and then dragging/flipping them up into your hand. I don't really get where that one came from either, and I try not to abuse my cards/sleeves any more than I have to. That said, it doesn't bother me when people do it.
I knew a guy at the card shop I frequented in college who held his cards so tightly all of his decks were curved. He asked one time if he could borrow a card for a tournament, and I think I looked at him like he asked if he could set my pants on fire. He seemed to have no idea that other people might not want their cards completely warped.
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I totally understand that, and I'll do a quick lil shuffle of my hand when I first draw just to try and make sure it's not obvious that I just topdecks a land and put it straight into play without it ever hitting my hand.
But I think the OP is talking about those damn kids who like obsessively do that crap every friggin moment of the game, during your turn, while they're thinking, whilst you're thinking, etc....
That constant "Flick, flick, flick, flick, flick" that just makes them look like they're playing whilst tweeking out on meth or they have some kind of nervous condition. Yet for some reason, this is considered "pro" and "cool" despite it making the player look like an annoying jackass. For christ's sake kiddo, take some Valium before the tourny or something.
What's worse is that these guys always have to start putting on the facade of like being "super serious" about the game too. They always look like they're unhappy to even be playing, like every moment of thought is painful and they're struggling through it. And what's worse is that with some people it starts to spread over into their personality outside the game. Even whilst not playing, they become withdrawn and cold and come across as if they literally have no sense of humour whatsoever.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with taking the game seriously and really focusing on your game and trying to be the best player you can be. But it doesn't even look like these guys enjoy it. I can't understand how anyone would want to actually be friends with these people unless they're in that same lame-ass mindset and just looking for other humourless douchebags to play with.
The whole thing is just lame and contrived BS.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I mean, you understand that's kind of unsporting right? I mean, under that logic, why not start hitting the table with your hand and shouting "HEY! COME ON! PLAY SOMETHING, PLAY SOMETHING!!!" It seems I'm the only one here, as I've brought this up before. But the idea of "outside game" distractions just seems like something only a tool would do.
People are admitting that "annoying and distracting the opponent" are part of the reason they do this crap. If people are good enough players, they shouldn't have to rely on crap like that to win their games nor should it be part of their "Strategy".
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
Well, Magic is a card game you play against another person. Things like bluffing and deception are valid and active parts of playing this game, which all takes place 'off table' so to speak. I don't see why distracting your opponent in a non disruptive way (like yelling) isn't a valid tactic. If you look at poker, also a card game where you're playing against other players, talking and prodding your opponents is part of the game. Getting someone on tilt and making them misplay is a valid strategy and a legitimate part of the game.
I don't see why Magic would be any different. Much like poker, a lot of people don't incorporate that into their game plan, but it doesn't make people who do any worse at the game. You can't blame someone for trying to get any extra edge they can against their opponent.
In my opinion, at least.
Isn't the very reason flicking your cards is distracting is because it's disruptive? Albeit not as disruptive as spitting on your opponent during the game, but disruptive nevertheless.
And I could understand deception in the sense of like looking at your hand and going "ummmmmm, hold on" when they cast something to imply that you might have a counter even if you don't. But that's at least still "in-game" stuff more or less.
I can indeed blame someone for getting an extra edge if it involves being an annoying tool during the game.
As far as I am aware, the primary reason for dragging a card along the table before putting it into your hand is three-fold: It gives time before you see the card for your opponent to do something in your upkeep, it gives you time to think about your upkeep before drawing (and therefore try not to miss triggers etc), and to minimize the risk of accidentally drawing/seeing more cards than you're supposed to (which can be very costly).
More on Topic: I flick my cards as a nervous habit. I tend to do it more when I'm making a difficult decision about what to play - flicking the various options around in my hand.
Also: If someone is annoying you during a game, you're well within your rights to ask them to stop. If they refuse, you can get a judge over. It's more useful if someone is hurrying you or something, but it could apply to flicking cards, especially if you feel it is malicious. (Although I've never known anyone who does it on purpose to annoy.)
So then the question is what makes Magic any different from Hold'Em in terms of etiquette? Why can I say whatever I want to my opponent in poker, but can't flick a card in Magic?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2_oAqDuUjo
It's Nick Spagnolo vs Pat Chapin. Spagnolo is rightfully scared ☺☺☺☺less: he is playing against Chapin; using a non-mainstream deck; against an opponent who is a master of his own archetype; under the feature match camera.
It's a long vid but you can get a good glimpse of the situation around 28:00. Viewers in the live chat started a running count of how many times Nick touched his library and graveyard. By game 3 it was at least 106.
The funny thing is that Chapin is the one everyone thinks is on drugs.