Two Masters sets in less than 4 months that are supposed to celebrate the history of MTG.
Other than a money grab this seems a little strange.
Think about this:
Thought 1: How many iconic cards are out there that are NOT on the RL and have NOT been printed in a recent premium set?? Sure MTG Lion and other have stated some possibilities, but not really enough to fill a set that is even CLOSE to justifying a $9.99 price tag per pack.
Thought 2: Master 25 is coming next year. This description reads very similar to Iconic Masters. Celebrating the last 20 or so years of MTG, blah, blah, blah..... Even if, they manage to fill Iconic Masters how in "Zeus's Butt hole" are they going to fill that set??? This set is due to release in just 4 months after Iconic Masters.
Solution 1: Make two really bad Masters sets that very few people will buy.
Solution 2: Adjust the RL. Yes, adjust, not abolish. Now, a wizard of course has attempted to squash this, but follow this: This is what they said "We will not be reprinting reserved list cards. There are plenty of iconic cards outside of them."
Again, take this with a grain of salt, but just look at what they said. Both of their statements do not mean that the reserved will not be adjusted.
Think about it:
"We will not be reprinting reserved list cards": Even if the reserved list is adjusted, this statement is still TRUE Even if the reserved list shrinks to the P9 plus some extras this statement is still TRUE
"There are plenty of iconic cards outside of them": Again, even if the reserved list is adjusted, this statement is still TRUE. This statement is TRUE no matter the size of the reserved list and the term iconic is very subjective...
Again, take it and leave it, but changes to the reserved list need to happen and I think they will... this is the ONLY way they can fill two Masters set within 4 months of each other the celebrate this history of MTG.
Come on, this just does not pass the logic/smell test. How can Wizards really fill two premium sets that are only 4 months apart without RL cards???
The reserved list was created a LONG time ago by a few people when MTG was much smaller. I was part of that environment. I opened numerous 0.99 Legend,
Arabian and Antiquities packs. Remember when packs where only 99 cents???
Well, HASCON will give us a peek. It just makes sense (to me anyway) that RL cards will be in Iconic Masters and Masters 25.
Thought #2: Easily. There are over 16k cards currently printed in M:TG, they only need around 200 for a masters set.
But entertaining your idea for a moment. The most realistic modification of the Reserved List I can see would be for WotC to remove every card reprinted in Revised (that includes the dual lands), and every uncommon still on it. That is *if* they modify it.
However, regardless of them modifying it or abolishing it completely, they'd have to announce it far in advance of making a set or reprinting cards from it to prevent them from getting into legal trouble. How far in advance? About the lead time for a full set if they intend to print them in boosters (which is somewhere in the neighborhood of two years currently), or the lead time for a special product (such as a Commander set, a FTV, or other non booster product), which is a bit over a year. That means the likelihood of them abolishing or modifying the list for either of the two upcoming products are very, very low.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Balance, Demonic Tutor, Lighting Bolt, Fetchlands, Mishra's Factory and Giant Growth have been reprinted a lot. Fetchlands are in the last premium set as a rare, so there are TONS of them out there now. Don't get me wrong, Iconic Masters will be a blast to draft, but Wizards really only makes money by people busting packs. How many boxes and cases are going to be opened if that next two premium sets (Iconic and 25) are just some new non-RL cards, reprints and lots of normally unplayable cards? Almost smells like two really bad core-like sets. BTW: Demonic Tutor was a card removed form the reserved list (2002 I think).
Modern and Eternal Masters was developed to make Eternal and Modern more accessible to players who can't afford to pay 2k or more for a deck. At least this is what we were told by Wizards. Legacy is still not truly accessible with some RL cards, mainly the duals. I know there a TONS of Legacy decks without them, but duals are a big part of Legacy. So, the printing of Eternal Masters and reprint RL cards just make their own statement make more sense: "Making Modem and Legacy more accessible".
As far as the legal trouble. This promise was never a binding contact. How can they get into legal trouble?? They will anger ~0.1% of the MTG population, but the rest will be very very happy. Sure there will be unwinnable lawsuits, but in the end Wizards will make ~1 BAZILLION dollars and younger MTG players will finally be able to play and be competitive in Legacy.
As for trouble, if a company breaks policy while that policy is in effect they can be sued for breach of contract. WotC need to remove or edit the reserved list *before* they produce a product that contains cards from it.
And before we go to far into the discussion, I want to make it absolutely clear as a person who has played since the Dark and owns multiple cards on the reserved list, I want it gone. It is debilitating to the long term health of the game and has effectively made both Vintage and Legacy prohibitively expensive to enter to such an extent that nearly no people today can afford to. I feel it was a kneejerk reaction to complaints by a small group of people, most of which didn't play the game at the time and haven't done so since.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I don't think being a "contract" has anything to do with it. As try as I can, all I can find are "verbal" agreements for the creation of the RL. No lawsuit. No signed contract. Just an announcement and a barely remembered story. Estoppel Promissory is a bit of a stretch since, historically, the RL has had cards removed. Loopholes. Even an instance of an "accidental" printing. And at one point, support from WotC staff for its removal.
But no actual full blown lawsuit over the RL.
I think the truth, once it comes out, might be a lot more shocking.
The value in the iconic masters set is likely going to come from the iconic low cmc tribes. Everyone has been focusing on the top end, but there has to be stuff in the set to get to the big stuff or to play other strategies besides ramping to giant creatures or playing a strait control game. Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk could potentially fill out the lower roster.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The value in the iconic masters set is likely going to come from the iconic low cmc tribes. Everyone has been focusing on the top end, but there has to be stuff in the set to get to the big stuff or to play other strategies besides ramping to giant creatures or playing a strait control game. Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk could potentially fill out the lower roster.
I concur.
I feel that WotC keeps transmitting two messages about their Masters sets by telling us these are good for Newish Modern players to flesh out their collections then going out of their way to make the set suitable for drafting. The scenario you describe seem like it would be exactly in-line with that sort of mentality.
I'm not certain if players would be satiated with that kind of set or toss their boxes through windows when they realize they spent $200 on jank.
The value in the iconic masters set is likely going to come from the iconic low cmc tribes. Everyone has been focusing on the top end, but there has to be stuff in the set to get to the big stuff or to play other strategies besides ramping to giant creatures or playing a strait control game. Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk could potentially fill out the lower roster.
I concur.
I feel that WotC keeps transmitting two messages about their Masters sets by telling us these are good for Newish Modern players to flesh out their collections then going out of their way to make the set suitable for drafting. The scenario you describe seem like it would be exactly in-line with that sort of mentality.
I'm not certain if players would be satiated with that kind of set or toss their boxes through windows when they realize they spent $200 on jank.
The only masters set that was actually worth it was Modern Masters 2013. Even 2017 with the fetchlands was far too inconsistent when doing pulls to make it worth while as basically none of the following masters sets had enough value in the commons and uncommons. Imo they should drop the price on Masters products if they are going to continue the trend they have been pulling for the last two years, but they likely wont due to Hasbro and financial reasons.
Think that bloom tender and oracle of something elf from zendikar block could get reprinted.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
But two Masters Sets in just 4 months. I understand Master 25. That celebrates 25 years of MTG, but why Iconic Masters??
Iconic Masters description reads "Iconic Masters offers players a tour through some of the most powerful cards in over 23 years of Magic history"
Master 25 reads "A Masters set that celebrates the 25 years of Magic's history"
One Masters set celebrating 23 years and the other celebrating 25 years, both just 4 months apart. BTW, both release dates are at the 24 year point, but that is most likely irreverent (maybe this post is too).
If you go by all the Master set release dates the next one should have been Masters 25. Iconic Masters is the oddball here. If they followed their normal schema we should have just had Master 25.
The question is why celebrate 23 years (odd celebration year too) of MTG and then celebrate 25 years of MTG history just 4 months later?????
The value in the iconic masters set is likely going to come from the iconic low cmc tribes. Everyone has been focusing on the top end, but there has to be stuff in the set to get to the big stuff or to play other strategies besides ramping to giant creatures or playing a strait control game. Elves, Goblins, and Merfolk could potentially fill out the lower roster.
I concur.
I feel that WotC keeps transmitting two messages about their Masters sets by telling us these are good for Newish Modern players to flesh out their collections then going out of their way to make the set suitable for drafting. The scenario you describe seem like it would be exactly in-line with that sort of mentality.
I'm not certain if players would be satiated with that kind of set or toss their boxes through windows when they realize they spent $200 on jank.
The only masters set that was actually worth it was Modern Masters 2013. Even 2017 with the fetchlands was far too inconsistent when doing pulls to make it worth while as basically none of the following masters sets had enough value in the commons and uncommons. Imo they should drop the price on Masters products if they are going to continue the trend they have been pulling for the last two years, but they likely wont due to Hasbro and financial reasons.
Think that bloom tender and oracle of something elf from zendikar block could get reprinted.
I am quite happy with both my MM2 and Eternal Masters pulls. Sure I didn't get everything I wanted, but I got a lot of good stuff that I did want. Whenever I decide upon whether or not to purchase a Masters product I take a look at the card list first, and if there are enough uncommons and rares I want, I purchase. And we'll be getting the card list for Iconic the week after Hascon, so we'll have time to decide (I am basing this on MaRo saying that once the cards are public knowledge, after the Hascon drafting, the list will be released with a visual spoiler).
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I think they are going to just create cards that are strictly worse, but still quite functional. This should appease both sides.
It never appeases both sides. The ones that want the RL to stay in place don't care at all about the playability of the cards on the List as much as their value, so printing anything that relates to the card even functionally hurts them. That's why they complained when even a limited reprint via From the Vaults happened: It infringed on their value prospect financially. The only reason they aren't complaining when this happens is that they are more focused on the legal text and realize complaining is pointless. The other side that wants the reprints wants to be able to buy the cards at fair value. A lot of cards would drop in value without even a reprint if the reserved list were to go away simply because they just aren't that good. Preacher was never a really good card as much as a janky, interesting card. However, because it is from the dark and on the RL people bought it out and now it costs 20 dollars. A card that doesn't even compare to a lot of current cards valued at a dollar.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I don't think being a "contract" has anything to do with it. As try as I can, all I can find are "verbal" agreements for the creation of the RL. No lawsuit. No signed contract. Just an announcement and a barely remembered story. Estoppel Promissory is a bit of a stretch since, historically, the RL has had cards removed. Loopholes. Even an instance of an "accidental" printing. And at one point, support from WotC staff for its removal.
But no actual full blown lawsuit over the RL.
I think the truth, once it comes out, might be a lot more shocking.
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
Off the top of my head; a group of sellers/collectors came to them with lawyers, they had some closed door discussions, signed some non-disclosure agreements and wizards tightened up the rules on the reserve list. I don't think Wizards are allowed to talk about the contents of the deal but what I get from it is the reserve list is legally enforceable.
It's pretty hard to find much information on it since everyone involved in what happened has stayed tight lipped about the whole thing. I think now that Wizards is Hasbro's cash cow they don't want to rock the boat by possibly courting legal action and scaring off the secondary market.
FWIW - I would like to see the reserved list scaled back a bit, but I am ok with the P9 and some others staying on the list but there are a lot of strange cards on it. I am happy playing with proxies in my cube, but I can see how people looking to get into legacy would just want to do away with it altogether.
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
It wasn't Mox Diamond. People didn't know Mox Diamond was going to be printed when the outrage hit Wizards. The outrage came from Phyrexian Negator and Masticore. My understanding from the time was that while people were happy with the random judge foil or other possible limited released cards, they were upset that a RL card(negator) was going to be in a 'print to demand' product(duel deck). I don't recall anything with lawyers actually happening but its possible.
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
It wasn't Mox Diamond. People didn't know Mox Diamond was going to be printed when the outrage hit Wizards. The outrage came from Phyrexian Negator and Masticore. My understanding from the time was that while people were happy with the random judge foil or other possible limited released cards, they were upset that a RL card(negator) was going to be in a 'print to demand' product(duel deck). I don't recall anything with lawyers actually happening but its possible.
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
It wasn't Mox Diamond. People didn't know Mox Diamond was going to be printed when the outrage hit Wizards. The outrage came from Phyrexian Negator and Masticore. My understanding from the time was that while people were happy with the random judge foil or other possible limited released cards, they were upset that a RL card(negator) was going to be in a 'print to demand' product(duel deck). I don't recall anything with lawyers actually happening but its possible.
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
While I can't say for certain it was Negator, I can say for certain it wasn't the Mox, Wizards closed the loophole before the public knew that Mox Diamon was going to be reprinted, so it couldn't have been the Mox people were upset with. The only known cards when the outrage started was the previewed Masticore and Negator. It wasn't about value, it was about availability of the card, limited releases added very few cards and people were fine, the unlimited release of Negator set a dangerous precedent that people were unhappey with.
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
It wasn't Mox Diamond. People didn't know Mox Diamond was going to be printed when the outrage hit Wizards. The outrage came from Phyrexian Negator and Masticore. My understanding from the time was that while people were happy with the random judge foil or other possible limited released cards, they were upset that a RL card(negator) was going to be in a 'print to demand' product(duel deck). I don't recall anything with lawyers actually happening but its possible.
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
While I can't say for certain it was Negator, I can say for certain it wasn't the Mox, Wizards closed the loophole before the public knew that Mox Diamon was going to be reprinted, so it couldn't have been the Mox people were upset with. The only known cards when the outrage started was the previewed Masticore and Negator. It wasn't about value, it was about availability of the card, limited releases added very few cards and people were fine, the unlimited release of Negator set a dangerous precedent that people were unhappey with.
Fair enough, must have my timelines wrong, I was pretty new to magic around then.
I wish we had more info on this hush hush deal, but most of what I can find is MaRo saying he isn't allowed to say anything about it and random speculation.
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
It wasn't Mox Diamond. People didn't know Mox Diamond was going to be printed when the outrage hit Wizards. The outrage came from Phyrexian Negator and Masticore. My understanding from the time was that while people were happy with the random judge foil or other possible limited released cards, they were upset that a RL card(negator) was going to be in a 'print to demand' product(duel deck). I don't recall anything with lawyers actually happening but its possible.
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
While I can't say for certain it was Negator, I can say for certain it wasn't the Mox, Wizards closed the loophole before the public knew that Mox Diamon was going to be reprinted, so it couldn't have been the Mox people were upset with. The only known cards when the outrage started was the previewed Masticore and Negator. It wasn't about value, it was about availability of the card, limited releases added very few cards and people were fine, the unlimited release of Negator set a dangerous precedent that people were unhappey with.
Fair enough, must have my timelines wrong, I was pretty new to magic around then.
I wish we had more info on this hush hush deal, but most of what I can find is MaRo saying he isn't allowed to say anything about it and random speculation.
There is no info on any deal(there may or may not have even been one), but there is Wizards' official announcement where they say they previewed the cards and the 'community' said it wasn't cool and so they changed the policy. Its very difficult to track down any specifics but I vaguely recall a lot of buzz about how them mass printing a RL card was bad.
It wasn't Mox Diamond. People didn't know Mox Diamond was going to be printed when the outrage hit Wizards. The outrage came from Phyrexian Negator and Masticore. My understanding from the time was that while people were happy with the random judge foil or other possible limited released cards, they were upset that a RL card(negator) was going to be in a 'print to demand' product(duel deck). I don't recall anything with lawyers actually happening but its possible.
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
While I can't say for certain it was Negator, I can say for certain it wasn't the Mox, Wizards closed the loophole before the public knew that Mox Diamon was going to be reprinted, so it couldn't have been the Mox people were upset with. The only known cards when the outrage started was the previewed Masticore and Negator. It wasn't about value, it was about availability of the card, limited releases added very few cards and people were fine, the unlimited release of Negator set a dangerous precedent that people were unhappey with.
Fair enough, must have my timelines wrong, I was pretty new to magic around then.
I wish we had more info on this hush hush deal, but most of what I can find is MaRo saying he isn't allowed to say anything about it and random speculation.
There is no info on any deal(there may or may not have even been one), but there is Wizards' official announcement where they say they previewed the cards and the 'community' said it wasn't cool and so they changed the policy. Its very difficult to track down any specifics but I vaguely recall a lot of buzz about how them mass printing a RL card was bad.
Basically, around (I think it was eight edition, but I am not 100% sure), WotC wanted to reprint Clone in the core set. Unfortunately Clone was on the reserved list, so they basically asked the community if they could remove it and a number of other cards from the reserved list. The vast majority of the community was totally fine with this, and a lot of cards, mostly uncommons (as Clone had last been printed as an uncommon) were removed. Basically. It was around the time of "You make the core set" promotion they had, were the community had input on the next core set (Each day we got to vote on two cards, the one with the more votes by the time the next poll came up got printed in the next core set, the other wasn't. It was mostly commons and uncommons though. Mostly.)
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
While I can't say for certain it was Negator, I can say for certain it wasn't the Mox, Wizards closed the loophole before the public knew that Mox Diamon was going to be reprinted, so it couldn't have been the Mox people were upset with. The only known cards when the outrage started was the previewed Masticore and Negator. It wasn't about value, it was about availability of the card, limited releases added very few cards and people were fine, the unlimited release of Negator set a dangerous precedent that people were unhappey with.
Fair enough, must have my timelines wrong, I was pretty new to magic around then.
I wish we had more info on this hush hush deal, but most of what I can find is MaRo saying he isn't allowed to say anything about it and random speculation.
There is no info on any deal(there may or may not have even been one), but there is Wizards' official announcement where they say they previewed the cards and the 'community' said it wasn't cool and so they changed the policy. Its very difficult to track down any specifics but I vaguely recall a lot of buzz about how them mass printing a RL card was bad.
Basically, around (I think it was eight edition, but I am not 100% sure), WotC wanted to reprint Clone in the core set. Unfortunately Clone was on the reserved list, so they basically asked the community if they could remove it and a number of other cards from the reserved list. The vast majority of the community was totally fine with this, and a lot of cards, mostly uncommons (as Clone had last been printed as an uncommon) were removed. Basically. It was around the time of "You make the core set" promotion they had, were the community had input on the next core set (Each day we got to vote on two cards, the one with the more votes by the time the next poll came up got printed in the next core set, the other wasn't. It was mostly commons and uncommons though. Mostly.)
That is all true, we were discussing a completely different event. When wizards closed the loophole on premium reprints,
While I can't say for certain it was Negator, I can say for certain it wasn't the Mox, Wizards closed the loophole before the public knew that Mox Diamon was going to be reprinted, so it couldn't have been the Mox people were upset with. The only known cards when the outrage started was the previewed Masticore and Negator. It wasn't about value, it was about availability of the card, limited releases added very few cards and people were fine, the unlimited release of Negator set a dangerous precedent that people were unhappey with.
Fair enough, must have my timelines wrong, I was pretty new to magic around then.
I wish we had more info on this hush hush deal, but most of what I can find is MaRo saying he isn't allowed to say anything about it and random speculation.
There is no info on any deal(there may or may not have even been one), but there is Wizards' official announcement where they say they previewed the cards and the 'community' said it wasn't cool and so they changed the policy. Its very difficult to track down any specifics but I vaguely recall a lot of buzz about how them mass printing a RL card was bad.
Basically, around (I think it was eight edition, but I am not 100% sure), WotC wanted to reprint Clone in the core set. Unfortunately Clone was on the reserved list, so they basically asked the community if they could remove it and a number of other cards from the reserved list. The vast majority of the community was totally fine with this, and a lot of cards, mostly uncommons (as Clone had last been printed as an uncommon) were removed. Basically. It was around the time of "You make the core set" promotion they had, were the community had input on the next core set (Each day we got to vote on two cards, the one with the more votes by the time the next poll came up got printed in the next core set, the other wasn't. It was mostly commons and uncommons though. Mostly.)
That is all true, we were discussing a completely different event. When wizards closed the loophole on premium reprints,
That was a combination of Phyrexia Vs. the Coalition (Phyrexian Negator), FTV:Relics (Karn, Silver Golem and Mox Diamond) and a single person throwing a hissy fit. Mind you, a person who admittedly had not played the game since Urza's Saga and didn't give a frigg' about the game.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Reserved list fans are in decline, thats for sure. Mayority of Players want to RL go away.
To celebrate 25th anniversary wizards should make a pool, what to do with RL and WE, Players we should vote to get rid of IT.
If not immediately, then in 1 year time, not in five or ten, but in 1 year.
Just imagine how many duals & moxes were lost in recent nature disasters. Prices skyrocket right now, buyouts are real, market is flooded with fakes. And what are wizards doing? Nothing, because of some old list, that is not even considered legal in Europe. Ridiculous.
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By John Avon
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
The fake situation is what is going to bring this to a head. We are not far off from having fakes that are indistinguishable from the real card. When that happens the reserved list is meaningless whether Wizards wants it to be or not. The bubble will burst. It is in everyone's best interest, including the speculators, to have that bubble dealt with in a controlled manner by Wizards and not from some counterfeiter's printing press.
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That was pretty interesting. But dropping a warship on me is cheating. Take it back!
What happens when the fakes start being printed on better cards stock then the new real cards, fakes that don't bend/warp/whatever it is that the recent sets do? I've been going through cards in my cube the past few weekend and it is amazing to me the amount of cards 1-2 yrs old that bend more than any cards 10-15yrs old.
Other than a money grab this seems a little strange.
Think about this:
Thought 1: How many iconic cards are out there that are NOT on the RL and have NOT been printed in a recent premium set?? Sure MTG Lion and other have stated some possibilities, but not really enough to fill a set that is even CLOSE to justifying a $9.99 price tag per pack.
Thought 2: Master 25 is coming next year. This description reads very similar to Iconic Masters. Celebrating the last 20 or so years of MTG, blah, blah, blah..... Even if, they manage to fill Iconic Masters how in "Zeus's Butt hole" are they going to fill that set??? This set is due to release in just 4 months after Iconic Masters.
Solution 1: Make two really bad Masters sets that very few people will buy.
Solution 2: Adjust the RL. Yes, adjust, not abolish. Now, a wizard of course has attempted to squash this, but follow this: This is what they said "We will not be reprinting reserved list cards. There are plenty of iconic cards outside of them."
Again, take this with a grain of salt, but just look at what they said. Both of their statements do not mean that the reserved will not be adjusted.
Think about it:
"We will not be reprinting reserved list cards": Even if the reserved list is adjusted, this statement is still TRUE Even if the reserved list shrinks to the P9 plus some extras this statement is still TRUE
"There are plenty of iconic cards outside of them": Again, even if the reserved list is adjusted, this statement is still TRUE. This statement is TRUE no matter the size of the reserved list and the term iconic is very subjective...
Again, take it and leave it, but changes to the reserved list need to happen and I think they will... this is the ONLY way they can fill two Masters set within 4 months of each other the celebrate this history of MTG.
Come on, this just does not pass the logic/smell test. How can Wizards really fill two premium sets that are only 4 months apart without RL cards???
The reserved list was created a LONG time ago by a few people when MTG was much smaller. I was part of that environment. I opened numerous 0.99 Legend,
Arabian and Antiquities packs. Remember when packs where only 99 cents???
Well, HASCON will give us a peek. It just makes sense (to me anyway) that RL cards will be in Iconic Masters and Masters 25.
Thought #2: Easily. There are over 16k cards currently printed in M:TG, they only need around 200 for a masters set.
But entertaining your idea for a moment. The most realistic modification of the Reserved List I can see would be for WotC to remove every card reprinted in Revised (that includes the dual lands), and every uncommon still on it. That is *if* they modify it.
However, regardless of them modifying it or abolishing it completely, they'd have to announce it far in advance of making a set or reprinting cards from it to prevent them from getting into legal trouble. How far in advance? About the lead time for a full set if they intend to print them in boosters (which is somewhere in the neighborhood of two years currently), or the lead time for a special product (such as a Commander set, a FTV, or other non booster product), which is a bit over a year. That means the likelihood of them abolishing or modifying the list for either of the two upcoming products are very, very low.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Modern and Eternal Masters was developed to make Eternal and Modern more accessible to players who can't afford to pay 2k or more for a deck. At least this is what we were told by Wizards. Legacy is still not truly accessible with some RL cards, mainly the duals. I know there a TONS of Legacy decks without them, but duals are a big part of Legacy. So, the printing of Eternal Masters and reprint RL cards just make their own statement make more sense: "Making Modem and Legacy more accessible".
As far as the legal trouble. This promise was never a binding contact. How can they get into legal trouble?? They will anger ~0.1% of the MTG population, but the rest will be very very happy. Sure there will be unwinnable lawsuits, but in the end Wizards will make ~1 BAZILLION dollars and younger MTG players will finally be able to play and be competitive in Legacy.
As for trouble, if a company breaks policy while that policy is in effect they can be sued for breach of contract. WotC need to remove or edit the reserved list *before* they produce a product that contains cards from it.
And before we go to far into the discussion, I want to make it absolutely clear as a person who has played since the Dark and owns multiple cards on the reserved list, I want it gone. It is debilitating to the long term health of the game and has effectively made both Vintage and Legacy prohibitively expensive to enter to such an extent that nearly no people today can afford to. I feel it was a kneejerk reaction to complaints by a small group of people, most of which didn't play the game at the time and haven't done so since.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
But no actual full blown lawsuit over the RL.
I think the truth, once it comes out, might be a lot more shocking.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I concur.
I feel that WotC keeps transmitting two messages about their Masters sets by telling us these are good for Newish Modern players to flesh out their collections then going out of their way to make the set suitable for drafting. The scenario you describe seem like it would be exactly in-line with that sort of mentality.
I'm not certain if players would be satiated with that kind of set or toss their boxes through windows when they realize they spent $200 on jank.
The only masters set that was actually worth it was Modern Masters 2013. Even 2017 with the fetchlands was far too inconsistent when doing pulls to make it worth while as basically none of the following masters sets had enough value in the commons and uncommons. Imo they should drop the price on Masters products if they are going to continue the trend they have been pulling for the last two years, but they likely wont due to Hasbro and financial reasons.
Think that bloom tender and oracle of something elf from zendikar block could get reprinted.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Iconic Masters description reads "Iconic Masters offers players a tour through some of the most powerful cards in over 23 years of Magic history"
Master 25 reads "A Masters set that celebrates the 25 years of Magic's history"
One Masters set celebrating 23 years and the other celebrating 25 years, both just 4 months apart. BTW, both release dates are at the 24 year point, but that is most likely irreverent (maybe this post is too).
If you go by all the Master set release dates the next one should have been Masters 25. Iconic Masters is the oddball here. If they followed their normal schema we should have just had Master 25.
The question is why celebrate 23 years (odd celebration year too) of MTG and then celebrate 25 years of MTG history just 4 months later?????
This is very strange.....
I am quite happy with both my MM2 and Eternal Masters pulls. Sure I didn't get everything I wanted, but I got a lot of good stuff that I did want. Whenever I decide upon whether or not to purchase a Masters product I take a look at the card list first, and if there are enough uncommons and rares I want, I purchase. And we'll be getting the card list for Iconic the week after Hascon, so we'll have time to decide (I am basing this on MaRo saying that once the cards are public knowledge, after the Hascon drafting, the list will be released with a visual spoiler).
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
It never appeases both sides. The ones that want the RL to stay in place don't care at all about the playability of the cards on the List as much as their value, so printing anything that relates to the card even functionally hurts them. That's why they complained when even a limited reprint via From the Vaults happened: It infringed on their value prospect financially. The only reason they aren't complaining when this happens is that they are more focused on the legal text and realize complaining is pointless. The other side that wants the reprints wants to be able to buy the cards at fair value. A lot of cards would drop in value without even a reprint if the reserved list were to go away simply because they just aren't that good. Preacher was never a really good card as much as a janky, interesting card. However, because it is from the dark and on the RL people bought it out and now it costs 20 dollars. A card that doesn't even compare to a lot of current cards valued at a dollar.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Didn't they get in some legal trouble with cards like Mox Diamond from FTV: Relics?
Off the top of my head; a group of sellers/collectors came to them with lawyers, they had some closed door discussions, signed some non-disclosure agreements and wizards tightened up the rules on the reserve list. I don't think Wizards are allowed to talk about the contents of the deal but what I get from it is the reserve list is legally enforceable.
It's pretty hard to find much information on it since everyone involved in what happened has stayed tight lipped about the whole thing. I think now that Wizards is Hasbro's cash cow they don't want to rock the boat by possibly courting legal action and scaring off the secondary market.
FWIW - I would like to see the reserved list scaled back a bit, but I am ok with the P9 and some others staying on the list but there are a lot of strange cards on it. I am happy playing with proxies in my cube, but I can see how people looking to get into legacy would just want to do away with it altogether.
Really? I remember a lot of hubub around Mox Diamond. I know people weren't a fan of Negator getting reprinted but it wasn't a big money card so most people let it slide and were kinda ok with the loophole, Mox Diamond seemed like the card that really annoyed people and led to the loophole being closed as it was a much higher value card that was seeing play.
Fair enough, must have my timelines wrong, I was pretty new to magic around then.
I wish we had more info on this hush hush deal, but most of what I can find is MaRo saying he isn't allowed to say anything about it and random speculation.
Basically, around (I think it was eight edition, but I am not 100% sure), WotC wanted to reprint Clone in the core set. Unfortunately Clone was on the reserved list, so they basically asked the community if they could remove it and a number of other cards from the reserved list. The vast majority of the community was totally fine with this, and a lot of cards, mostly uncommons (as Clone had last been printed as an uncommon) were removed. Basically. It was around the time of "You make the core set" promotion they had, were the community had input on the next core set (Each day we got to vote on two cards, the one with the more votes by the time the next poll came up got printed in the next core set, the other wasn't. It was mostly commons and uncommons though. Mostly.)
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
That was a combination of Phyrexia Vs. the Coalition (Phyrexian Negator), FTV:Relics (Karn, Silver Golem and Mox Diamond) and a single person throwing a hissy fit. Mind you, a person who admittedly had not played the game since Urza's Saga and didn't give a frigg' about the game.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
To celebrate 25th anniversary wizards should make a pool, what to do with RL and WE, Players we should vote to get rid of IT.
If not immediately, then in 1 year time, not in five or ten, but in 1 year.
Just imagine how many duals & moxes were lost in recent nature disasters. Prices skyrocket right now, buyouts are real, market is flooded with fakes. And what are wizards doing? Nothing, because of some old list, that is not even considered legal in Europe. Ridiculous.
Decks:
EDH: :symbw::symuw::symub:Merieke Ri Berit:symbw::symuw::symub:
Archenemy EDH: Reaper king
(")(")
GONZO
Genius, fast, and long eared.