Not really. What I mean is that I'd like a fetchland that comes into play untapped and can fetch any basic land and put that basic into play untapped. Essentially an upgraded Evolving wilds that doesn't make you lose tempo and has some additional cost to activate as a result.
Not really. What I mean is that I'd like a fetchland that comes into play untapped and can fetch any basic land and put that basic into play untapped. Essentially an upgraded Evolving wilds that doesn't make you lose tempo and has some additional cost to activate as a result.
So you want something that works like Maze's End, but it fetches basics, doesn't come into play tapped, and lacks the "one of each and you win the game" clause.
Yeah... No. There is a reason why the fetches that make the lands come into play untapped are restricted to two types of land, and come with a drawback. Balance issues. Either you pay life and the cards are rare, or they are uncommon and come into play tapped.
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I get the feeling that we're having a misunderstanding here.
What I want is a rare version of Evolving Wilds. It fetches only basics, and requires an added cost like fetchlands require the players pay 1 life. The extra cost of this land doesn't have to be life, it could be discarding a card from your hand or some other manaless cost. I don't think it should be a repeatable effect like maze's end. I feel that the reason why normal fetchlands are so powerful is because they can fetch dual lands and can essentially fix players for two colors instead of one. The land I want forces the player to look for a basic land, and would only ever be able to fix a player for one color.
Here is how I imagine it would be worded:
Basic Fetchland Land t, discard a card, sacrifice Basic Fetchland: Search your library for a basic land and put it into play.
Yeah, I'm with Krishnath that the Flood Plain cycle would be overall more preferable. Since KTK's fetches are rotating out, we ease players off fetches for a while with slower fetches that still work with BFZ's Tangolands. I don't think that the Flood Plain cycle would fit Innistrad, though.
Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the SOI duals enter untapped if you sacrifice a land? That keeps them from being reliable T1 fixers, but it does provide colorfixing T2 and later, and helps support the "4 or more card types in graveyard" mechanic. Or, to play nicely with Landfall, we get rare bouncelands that enter untapped if you bounce a land, rather than requiring it as an additional cost like the Visions and Ravnica cycles. To wit:
WU Bounceland
Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may return a land you control to its owner's hand. If you don't, ~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Yeah, I'm with Krishnath that the Flood Plain cycle would be overall more preferable. Since KTK's fetches are rotating out, we ease players off fetches for a while with slower fetches that still work with BFZ's Tangolands. I don't think that the Flood Plain cycle would fit Innistrad, though.
Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the SOI duals enter untapped if you sacrifice a land? That keeps them from being reliable T1 fixers, but it does provide colorfixing T2 and later, and helps support the "4 or more card types in graveyard" mechanic. Or, to play nicely with Landfall, we get rare bouncelands that enter untapped if you bounce a land, rather than requiring it as an additional cost like the Visions and Ravnica cycles. To wit:
WU Bounceland
Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may return a land you control to its owner's hand. If you don't, ~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Yeah, I'm with Krishnath that the Flood Plain cycle would be overall more preferable. Since KTK's fetches are rotating out, we ease players off fetches for a while with slower fetches that still work with BFZ's Tangolands. I don't think that the Flood Plain cycle would fit Innistrad, though.
Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the SOI duals enter untapped if you sacrifice a land? That keeps them from being reliable T1 fixers, but it does provide colorfixing T2 and later, and helps support the "4 or more card types in graveyard" mechanic. Or, to play nicely with Landfall, we get rare bouncelands that enter untapped if you bounce a land, rather than requiring it as an additional cost like the Visions and Ravnica cycles. To wit:
WU Bounceland
Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may return a land you control to its owner's hand. If you don't, ~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Generic names that would fit nearly anywhere? None of which are tied to certain temperature zones? Looks like they could fit just fine.
But didn't MaRo, or somebody at Wizards state they don't want fetch lands in standard for the entire duration of the Zendikar standard cycle? Sure it is possible the comment was refering to just the rare Tarkir fetches and original Zen Fetches, but I expect the old style enters tapped fetches would be part of the "we don't wan't fetches for the entire cycle" comment. Who knows? I certainly wouldn't mind dusting off my old enters tapped fetches. I first would have to find them though.
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All your base are belong to us!
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
Yeah, I'm with Krishnath that the Flood Plain cycle would be overall more preferable. Since KTK's fetches are rotating out, we ease players off fetches for a while with slower fetches that still work with BFZ's Tangolands. I don't think that the Flood Plain cycle would fit Innistrad, though.
Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the SOI duals enter untapped if you sacrifice a land? That keeps them from being reliable T1 fixers, but it does provide colorfixing T2 and later, and helps support the "4 or more card types in graveyard" mechanic. Or, to play nicely with Landfall, we get rare bouncelands that enter untapped if you bounce a land, rather than requiring it as an additional cost like the Visions and Ravnica cycles. To wit:
WU Bounceland
Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may return a land you control to its owner's hand. If you don't, ~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Generic names that would fit nearly anywhere? None of which are tied to certain temperature zones? Looks like they could fit just fine.
But didn't MaRo, or somebody at Wizards state they don't want fetch lands in standard for the entire duration of the Zendikar standard cycle? Sure it is possible the comment was refering to just the rare Tarkir fetches and original Zen Fetches, but I expect the old style enters tapped fetches would be part of the "we don't wan't fetches for the entire cycle" comment. Who knows? I certainly wouldn't mind dusting off my old enters tapped fetches. I first would have to find them though.
As a commander player with a full set of the original Mirage fetchlands, I would love to see them reprinted in standard. They're a good alternative to the ONS/ZEN fetches. That said, I believe we are more likely to see the new dual land cycle finished in SOI over a cycle of fetchlands. Still, would be great to see them.
SOI needs an Allied cycle of lands to substitute KTK's Fetchlands, probably a turn 1 ETB untapped one. I don't expect a Landfall enabler like a bounceland or another fetchland-type design, they're surely able to design something completely new to make us a nice surprise. The problem with some of the ideas I see in this thread is that they are really awful for a new player: how can you explain him that a dual that makes you sac another land at ETB is worth the slot in his deck? The same goes for the Rocky Tar Pit cycle.
You don't tell them. They need to discover it on their own. Heck, when they (the Mirage fetches) first came out, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I would want to sacrifice a land to look through my library for another. It was the same with the Onslaught fetchlands. It wasn't until I (sadly) had traded away my *one* Onslaught fetchland that I realized that, hey, these are actually really friggin' good. Now, thanks to both Zendikar and Tarkir, I have a full set of those fetches as well. Heck, I now have *five* copies of Marsh Flats (including one Expedition), because I played a lot of FNM drafting during the original Zendikar block (best placement was second, but the final match was very close). WotC need to print cards that doesn't look splashy or good to the newbies so that there is something for the more experienced players as well. Heck, one of the most satisfying things to do at FNM is to help teach a newbie that a card is better than they initially think.
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I'm gonna go out on a limb and say in typical WotC overreacting fashion, since they tested having Fetches and Duals with basic land types at the same time in Standard and said it was too much... they will not have any dual lands in SOI at all.
Instead they will have a set of rare utility lands (w/ allied or enemy cost) similar to the previous time in Innistrad (which blends into BfZ as they tap for <> mana). Allied first then enemy in the second set.
What I think would be an interesting design is having a rare single color land that searches for an allied color land and puts it into play at a cost. Something like:
New dual
Tap to add W. When "new dual" enters the battlefield you may search your library for an island card and put it into play. If you do, sacrifice another land besides "new dual"
This makes it worse than a fetch turn one, but better than one on turn two, color fixing wise
What I think would be an interesting design is having a rare single color land that searches for an allied color land and puts it into play at a cost. Something like:
New dual
Tap to add W. When "new dual" enters the battlefield you may search your library for an island card and put it into play. If you do, sacrifice another land besides "new dual"
This makes it worse than a fetch turn one, but better than one on turn two, color fixing wise
I may be wrong, but I believe "ramplands" are insanely broken. Maybe if it puts the land on the top of your library it could be more reasonable. But I like the idea of producing one kind of mana and searching for the other one.
What I think would be an interesting design is having a rare single color land that searches for an allied color land and puts it into play at a cost. Something like:
New dual
Tap to add W. When "new dual" enters the battlefield you may search your library for an island card and put it into play. If you do, sacrifice another land besides "new dual"
This makes it worse than a fetch turn one, but better than one on turn two, color fixing wise
I may be wrong, but I believe "ramplands" are insanely broken. Maybe if it puts the land on the top of your library it could be more reasonable. But I like the idea of producing one kind of mana and searching for the other one.
I'd find it strange to find Arid Mesa's, Misty Rainforests or Scalding Tarn in the Central European setting-inspired flavor of Innistrad, but you never know.
You are of course aware that Rainforests are not exclusive to tropical regions? I mean, it's not like there isn't one in Norway or in Washington State or anything...
Scalding Tarn would work anywhere volcanic, and Sulfur Falls kinda proves at least parts of Innistrad's main continent is volcanic.
And like rainforests, mesa's are not exclusive to tropical reasons, nor is arid areas. Case in point, one of the most arid places on Earth is located in Antarctica.
So, yeah, they'd work just fine on Innistrad.
But many people don't know what a temperate rainforest is, many don't know that arid can mean dry but not hot, and that's where the confusion comes from. Just because and Arid Mesa or a Misty Rainforest would technically work on Innistrad doesn't mean that people would 'get it.' I'll admit that I didn't know what a temperate rainforest was until the obligatory "OMG enemie fetchez in SOI" debate started up.
Can we please not have fetches in SOI? The manabase has already been too good with the allied fetches in Khans, and it would be another 3-5 color format if they were replaced. I think it's actually quite likely we won't get duals at all, except perhaps taplands. If we did get rare duals, they might be the discard lands someone else suggested on this thread as an enabler for madness.
Calm down, people, I suspect your enemy fetches are coming in the next Modern Masters release.
1, sacrifice this land: Search your library for a basic land and put it into play.
And I wouldn't mind having a full block free of fetching lands (like the Khans one). Love to see them reprint the enemy fetches in the block after Innistrad.
I hope we'll get all 10 checklands, spread out over the two sets. The enemy ones need to be reprinted to keep their price in check, and the allied ones...eh, they're not pricey, but they're good enough. They also work nicely with BFZ's tangolands.
Also, we haven't gotten an enemy cycle of battle lands yet. I want my Forest Island or Mountain Plains that enters untapped if you control at least 2 basic lands. The filter lands from Shadowmoor and Eventide are also in serious need of a reprint.
What I think would be an interesting design is having a rare single color land that searches for an allied color land and puts it into play at a cost. Something like:
New dual
Tap to add W. When "new dual" enters the battlefield you may search your library for an island card and put it into play. If you do, sacrifice another land besides "new dual"
This makes it worse than a fetch turn one, but better than one on turn two, color fixing wise
I may be wrong, but I believe "ramplands" are insanely broken. Maybe if it puts the land on the top of your library it could be more reasonable. But I like the idea of producing one kind of mana and searching for the other one.
It has some minor differences, but yeah, it is very similar indeed.
Btw, I was just thinking here. A Horizon Canopy cycle would work in so many ways for the set:
-By having a sacrifice ability it would be easy to have a land in your graveyard, helping Delirium count
-They are a fair color fixer: playable in constructed, but wouldn't produce the same fixing level as the current insane manabase
-It would sell tons of packs as demand for them would be pretty high (i.e. Modern playable)
-It would be kind of a complement to the Enemy Painland cycle in Standard
-Completing a Future Sight cycle is always cool
I'd find it strange to find Arid Mesa's, Misty Rainforests or Scalding Tarn in the Central European setting-inspired flavor of Innistrad, but you never know.
You are of course aware that Rainforests are not exclusive to tropical regions? I mean, it's not like there isn't one in Norway or in Washington State or anything...
Scalding Tarn would work anywhere volcanic, and Sulfur Falls kinda proves at least parts of Innistrad's main continent is volcanic.
And like rainforests, mesa's are not exclusive to tropical reasons, nor is arid areas. Case in point, one of the most arid places on Earth is located in Antarctica.
So, yeah, they'd work just fine on Innistrad.
But many people don't know what a temperate rainforest is, many don't know that arid can mean dry but not hot, and that's where the confusion comes from. Just because and Arid Mesa or a Misty Rainforest would technically work on Innistrad doesn't mean that people would 'get it.' I'll admit that I didn't know what a temperate rainforest was until the obligatory "OMG enemie fetchez in SOI" debate started up.
Perhaps many people should read a book once in a while, and I'm not talking about that Twilight drek.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
>hears about new dual lands on another forum
>they turn out to be the kind that always enter tapped, tap for one of two colors, and don't have any other benefits (and at uncommon to boot)
>FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU-
Wizards...what are you doing? Stop it. You've made actually decent dual lands on at least three occasions (the Sunpetal Grove/Hinterland Harbor cycle, the Canopy Vista cycle, and the Fire-Lit Thicket cycle); why do you keep giving us this crap?! Jeez, the Tarkir block at least had ones that enter tapped and gain you 1 life at common rarity.
>hears about new dual lands on another forum
>they turn out to be the kind that always enter tapped, tap for one of two colors, and don't have any other benefits (and at uncommon to boot)
>FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU-
Wizards...what are you doing? Stop it. You've made actually decent dual lands on at least three occasions (the Sunpetal Grove/Hinterland Harbor cycle, the Canopy Vista cycle, and the Fire-Lit Thicket cycle); why do you keep giving us this crap?! Jeez, the Tarkir block at least had ones that enter tapped and gain you 1 life at common rarity.
The lands were printed for limited purposes, they don't need to be amazing because this is a 2 color limited format. The reason why these lands are worse then khans ones and higher rarity is because khans encouraged playing 3-4 colors and the life gain was needed so people could hit the late game.
There is very likely going to be a cycle of ally colored lands at rare coming in SOI
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So you want something that works like Maze's End, but it fetches basics, doesn't come into play tapped, and lacks the "one of each and you win the game" clause.
Yeah... No. There is a reason why the fetches that make the lands come into play untapped are restricted to two types of land, and come with a drawback. Balance issues. Either you pay life and the cards are rare, or they are uncommon and come into play tapped.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
What I want is a rare version of Evolving Wilds. It fetches only basics, and requires an added cost like fetchlands require the players pay 1 life. The extra cost of this land doesn't have to be life, it could be discarding a card from your hand or some other manaless cost. I don't think it should be a repeatable effect like maze's end. I feel that the reason why normal fetchlands are so powerful is because they can fetch dual lands and can essentially fix players for two colors instead of one. The land I want forces the player to look for a basic land, and would only ever be able to fix a player for one color.
Here is how I imagine it would be worded:
Basic Fetchland
Land
t, discard a card, sacrifice Basic Fetchland: Search your library for a basic land and put it into play.
Here's a crazy idea: Maybe the SOI duals enter untapped if you sacrifice a land? That keeps them from being reliable T1 fixers, but it does provide colorfixing T2 and later, and helps support the "4 or more card types in graveyard" mechanic. Or, to play nicely with Landfall, we get rare bouncelands that enter untapped if you bounce a land, rather than requiring it as an additional cost like the Visions and Ravnica cycles. To wit:
WU Bounceland
Land
As ~ enters the battlefield, you may return a land you control to its owner's hand. If you don't, ~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Let's see...
Bad River
Flood Plain
Grasslands
Mountain Valley
Rocky Tar Pit
Generic names that would fit nearly anywhere? None of which are tied to certain temperature zones? Looks like they could fit just fine.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
But didn't MaRo, or somebody at Wizards state they don't want fetch lands in standard for the entire duration of the Zendikar standard cycle? Sure it is possible the comment was refering to just the rare Tarkir fetches and original Zen Fetches, but I expect the old style enters tapped fetches would be part of the "we don't wan't fetches for the entire cycle" comment. Who knows? I certainly wouldn't mind dusting off my old enters tapped fetches. I first would have to find them though.
RIP Batman guy. I hope somebody picks up the slack now that you are gone. Sick children need their Batman.
As a commander player with a full set of the original Mirage fetchlands, I would love to see them reprinted in standard. They're a good alternative to the ONS/ZEN fetches. That said, I believe we are more likely to see the new dual land cycle finished in SOI over a cycle of fetchlands. Still, would be great to see them.
You don't tell them. They need to discover it on their own. Heck, when they (the Mirage fetches) first came out, I couldn't for the life of me figure out why I would want to sacrifice a land to look through my library for another. It was the same with the Onslaught fetchlands. It wasn't until I (sadly) had traded away my *one* Onslaught fetchland that I realized that, hey, these are actually really friggin' good. Now, thanks to both Zendikar and Tarkir, I have a full set of those fetches as well. Heck, I now have *five* copies of Marsh Flats (including one Expedition), because I played a lot of FNM drafting during the original Zendikar block (best placement was second, but the final match was very close). WotC need to print cards that doesn't look splashy or good to the newbies so that there is something for the more experienced players as well. Heck, one of the most satisfying things to do at FNM is to help teach a newbie that a card is better than they initially think.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Instead they will have a set of rare utility lands (w/ allied or enemy cost) similar to the previous time in Innistrad (which blends into BfZ as they tap for <> mana). Allied first then enemy in the second set.
http://www.cubetutor.com/visualspoiler/20765
New dual
Tap to add W. When "new dual" enters the battlefield you may search your library for an island card and put it into play. If you do, sacrifice another land besides "new dual"
This makes it worse than a fetch turn one, but better than one on turn two, color fixing wise
I may be wrong, but I believe "ramplands" are insanely broken. Maybe if it puts the land on the top of your library it could be more reasonable. But I like the idea of producing one kind of mana and searching for the other one.
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
But many people don't know what a temperate rainforest is, many don't know that arid can mean dry but not hot, and that's where the confusion comes from. Just because and Arid Mesa or a Misty Rainforest would technically work on Innistrad doesn't mean that people would 'get it.' I'll admit that I didn't know what a temperate rainforest was until the obligatory "OMG enemie fetchez in SOI" debate started up.
Calm down, people, I suspect your enemy fetches are coming in the next Modern Masters release.
1, sacrifice this land: Search your library for a basic land and put it into play.
And I wouldn't mind having a full block free of fetching lands (like the Khans one). Love to see them reprint the enemy fetches in the block after Innistrad.
I agree with this...
...and this...
...and this.
Also, we haven't gotten an enemy cycle of battle lands yet. I want my Forest Island or Mountain Plains that enters untapped if you control at least 2 basic lands. The filter lands from Shadowmoor and Eventide are also in serious need of a reprint.
It has some minor differences, but yeah, it is very similar indeed.
Btw, I was just thinking here. A Horizon Canopy cycle would work in so many ways for the set:
-By having a sacrifice ability it would be easy to have a land in your graveyard, helping Delirium count
-They are a fair color fixer: playable in constructed, but wouldn't produce the same fixing level as the current insane manabase
-It would sell tons of packs as demand for them would be pretty high (i.e. Modern playable)
-It would be kind of a complement to the Enemy Painland cycle in Standard
-Completing a Future Sight cycle is always cool
Commander: WUBRG Superfriends, GW Rhys Tokens, WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon
Kitchen Table (now that's real Magic): WUBRG Domain, GU Biovisionary, UB Korlash Grandeur, UW Merfolk Mill
Perhaps many people should read a book once in a while, and I'm not talking about that Twilight drek.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
>they turn out to be the kind that always enter tapped, tap for one of two colors, and don't have any other benefits (and at uncommon to boot)
>FFFFFFUUUUUUUUU-
Wizards...what are you doing? Stop it. You've made actually decent dual lands on at least three occasions (the Sunpetal Grove/Hinterland Harbor cycle, the Canopy Vista cycle, and the Fire-Lit Thicket cycle); why do you keep giving us this crap?! Jeez, the Tarkir block at least had ones that enter tapped and gain you 1 life at common rarity.
The lands were printed for limited purposes, they don't need to be amazing because this is a 2 color limited format. The reason why these lands are worse then khans ones and higher rarity is because khans encouraged playing 3-4 colors and the life gain was needed so people could hit the late game.
There is very likely going to be a cycle of ally colored lands at rare coming in SOI