If they weren't legally forced to keep it, they wouldn't act so skittish when talking about it. As I understand, promissory estoppel laws are involved and enforceable thanks to Wizard's official reprint policy. They've made a public promise to never again reprint cards on the list, functionally or otherwise, and estoppel laws are holding them to that promise. Reverberate isn't a technical violation but many see it as a spiritual violation, and legendary equivalents of the old ABUR duals would be in the same boat. Not to mention it feels like a poor reason to make lands legendary; the supertype is supposed to be used on cards with a distinct storyline flavor and lands that tap for two colors and enter untapped are hardly deserving of a legendary distinction. You want legendary duals, how about Guild lands that ETBT and have secondary abilities?
Ah, but it isn't actually Promissory Estoppel. They have promised no economic gain nor business deals. Which is what the legal definition of Promissory Estoppel deals with. However, the reserved list is Policy, and policies can change. That said, as I mentioned in my previous post, I respect them for keeping it, even though they are technically not beholden to it. Heck, they even made a change to it several years ago, removing all uncommons and a handful of rares from it (so they could reprint clone.)
The only reason they adhere to it, is because they made a promise, and I respect them for it.
I don't see why keeping a promise for keeping the promise sake is an inherently good thing. If I'd make a promise to kick a puppy every day, would that be respectful, if i kept doing it for decades? I think whether this deserves respect depends on the promise, not on the fact that they keep it.
Not even remotely the same thing, and you know it. The reserved list does not harm anyone. It is annoying yes, but hardly harmful.
A company that makes a promise, and sticks to said promise is a rare thing.
Except the list does hurt someone... potential Legacy players (and even exsisting ones). Sure, it holds the value of some cards, but cardboard doesn't last forever. Without the ability to reprint some of the cards on the list, Legacy will die off eventually.
but cardboard doesn't last forever. Without the ability to reprint some of the cards on the list, Legacy will die off eventually.
Why would Legacy die off instead of just change manabases?
Wouldn't modern be more at risk given there is a new card frame? New Modern with the new black bottom frame could become a format one day, and then what is the point to the modern manabases of shocklands? The shocklands would become the legacy staple. Legacy wont die, because legacy is simply all the cards you and your playgroup owns minus a small banlist.
but cardboard doesn't last forever. Without the ability to reprint some of the cards on the list, Legacy will die off eventually.
Why would Legacy die off instead of just change manabases?
Wouldn't modern be more at risk given there is a new card frame? New Modern with the new black bottom frame could become a format one day, and then what is the point to the modern manabases of shocklands? The shocklands would become the legacy staple. Legacy wont die, because legacy is simply all the cards you and your playgroup owns minus a small banlist.
Are people still dumb enough to think Modern will be supplanted by a 5% card frame change? 'New Modern' will never be a thing because it doesn't have a list of cards that can never be reprinted. The fact we got a reprint set in 2013 and are getting one this year shows they will never need to make another format when they are supporting Modern now. That and they've been reprinting staples in standard sets where applicable, especially mana bases where they see higher print circulation.
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but cardboard doesn't last forever. Without the ability to reprint some of the cards on the list, Legacy will die off eventually.
Why would Legacy die off instead of just change manabases?
Wouldn't modern be more at risk given there is a new card frame? New Modern with the new black bottom frame could become a format one day, and then what is the point to the modern manabases of shocklands? The shocklands would become the legacy staple. Legacy wont die, because legacy is simply all the cards you and your playgroup owns minus a small banlist.
Are people still dumb enough to think Modern will be supplanted by a 5% card frame change? 'New Modern' will never be a thing because it doesn't have a list of cards that can never be reprinted. The fact we got a reprint set in 2013 and are getting one this year shows they will never need to make another format when they are supporting Modern now. That and they've been reprinting staples in standard sets where applicable, especially mana bases where they see higher print circulation.
For some reason people don't get that they firstly wanted a new format that didn't have a reserved list and had a power level close to Extended than Legacy. For it, the new frame (or more precisely, the first set with the new frame) was just a convenient cutting point, not the origin of the format in itself.
If they weren't legally forced to keep it, they wouldn't act so skittish when talking about it. As I understand, promissory estoppel laws are involved and enforceable thanks to Wizard's official reprint policy. They've made a public promise to never again reprint cards on the list, functionally or otherwise, and estoppel laws are holding them to that promise. Reverberate isn't a technical violation but many see it as a spiritual violation, and legendary equivalents of the old ABUR duals would be in the same boat. Not to mention it feels like a poor reason to make lands legendary; the supertype is supposed to be used on cards with a distinct storyline flavor and lands that tap for two colors and enter untapped are hardly deserving of a legendary distinction. You want legendary duals, how about Guild lands that ETBT and have secondary abilities?
Ah, but it isn't actually Promissory Estoppel. They have promised no economic gain nor business deals. Which is what the legal definition of Promissory Estoppel deals with. However, the reserved list is Policy, and policies can change. That said, as I mentioned in my previous post, I respect them for keeping it, even though they are technically not beholden to it. Heck, they even made a change to it several years ago, removing all uncommons and a handful of rares from it (so they could reprint clone.)
The only reason they adhere to it, is because they made a promise, and I respect them for it.
I don't see why keeping a promise for keeping the promise sake is an inherently good thing. If I'd make a promise to kick a puppy every day, would that be respectful, if i kept doing it for decades? I think whether this deserves respect depends on the promise, not on the fact that they keep it.
Not even remotely the same thing, and you know it. The reserved list does not harm anyone. It is annoying yes, but hardly harmful.
A company that makes a promise, and sticks to said promise is a rare thing.
Except the list does hurt someone... potential Legacy players (and even exsisting ones). Sure, it holds the value of some cards, but cardboard doesn't last forever. Without the ability to reprint some of the cards on the list, Legacy will die off eventually.
Which is why one of two things will happen, either Vintage/Legacy will move to be an entirely digital format (which is bad), or they will eventually abolish the reserved list (which is good.)
Heck, a lot of the cards on there shouldn't be due to being reprinted in Revised (such as the dual lands.)
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I'd love to see them pull out some of the old-school mana generators like Dark Ritual for example.
Rituals such as Dark Ritual are no longer in flavor for black. They have moved to Red (see Seething Song).
Personally, I am of the opinion that exchanging one resource for another (as with Sacrifice) however, is flavorfully very black, and would love for that type of mana boost to return to black in the future.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
It's flavorfully fine in either but it's a little safer in red mechanic wise. Red doesn't really draw cards as well and doesn't have the control elements to make combo work as well.
Honestly as the land types generally only matter for fetches, if they simple made fetches that where based on something else besides land type (example " tap sac: search your library for a gate or basic land that can produce red or blue mana and put it into play untapped") it would solve the problem while staying clear of the reserve list.
Still can't make legendary dual lands with basic land types without adding at least one additional line of rules text without violating the reserved list. Supertypes DO NOT MATTER when it comes to it. Neither do subtypes. For example, they can't make a Fork effect in red, and the only difference being a different name and the arcane subtype. They need to either change the casting cost or add a line of rules text. Preferably both.
For example:
Arcane Fork 2RR
Instant - Arcane
Copy target instant or sorcery spell on the stack, the copy is red.
Splice onto Arcane: 2RR
Is fine.
Arcane Fork RR
Instant - Arcane
Copy target instant or sorcery spell on the stack, the copy is red.
Is not fine.
Another Bodyguard 5WW
Creature - Human Soldier
3/6
Vigilance
As long as Another Bodyguard is untapped, all damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to Another Bodyguard instead.
is fine.
Another Bodyguard. 3WW
Legendary Creature - Kor Soldier
2/5
As long as Another Bodyguard is untapped, all damage that would be dealt to you by unblocked creatures is dealt to Another Bodyguard instead.
I think legendary duals without the basic land type is pretty fairly balanced (still powerful and probably would all be $10+ for their duration in Standard). Not being able to fetch them would probably keep them from affecting Legacy/Vintage.
Let's just assume that this thread is about having them without the basic land type because otherwise you guys go off on 4 pages arguing about the reserved list, and this solution avoids all that.
I think this thread has a bit of a misunderstanding about how legendary type works flavor wise. You can't create such a simple thing as a cycle of legendary duals just for mechanical reasons. And justifying it flavor wise would be difficult, especially if they are all patterned similar mechanically to each other. Maybe if they all had some minor effect or ability that was unique to each one? But that would probably be too powerful.
I _could_ however, see them making a legendary mana-confluence esque thing, that creates any color of mana but without the pain drawbacks or whatnot, perhaps something along these lines:
Diamond Monolith Legendary Land t: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Until after the next time Diamond Monolith is used to generate mana, it can't be used to generate that color of mana.
((Can't be tapped for the same color multiple times in a row))
Gleaming Fae Realm Legendary Land
When Gleaming Fae Realm enters the battlefield, it gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has. t: Gleaming Fae Realm gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has. 1: Gleaming Fae Realm gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has.
((can be tapped for whatever color you want to set it as when it comes down, and may add other types over time for investment, permanently gains the new types as long as it remains on the battlefield))
I think it would be more likely to end the reserve list than to print simple mechanical 'legendary' duals.
I think this thread has a bit of a misunderstanding about how legendary type works flavor wise. You can't create such a simple thing as a cycle of legendary duals just for mechanical reasons. And justifying it flavor wise would be difficult, especially if they are all patterned similar mechanically to each other. Maybe if they all had some minor effect or ability that was unique to each one? But that would probably be too powerful.
I _could_ however, see them making a legendary mana-confluence esque thing, that creates any color of mana but without the pain drawbacks or whatnot, perhaps something along these lines:
Diamond Monolith Legendary Land t: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Until after the next time Diamond Monolith is used to generate mana, it can't be used to generate that color of mana.
((Can't be tapped for the same color multiple times in a row))
Gleaming Fae Realm Legendary Land
When Gleaming Fae Realm enters the battlefield, it gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has. t: Gleaming Fae Realm gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has. 1: Gleaming Fae Realm gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has.
((can be tapped for whatever color you want to set it as when it comes down, and may add other types over time for investment, permanently gains the new types as long as it remains on the battlefield))
I think it would be more likely to end the reserve list than to print simple mechanical 'legendary' duals.
The problem is that those both suffer from non-visual memory issues. They're highly unlikely to make anything that would require you to write down types chosen for it. I think we'd be more likely to see things like these:
City of Gold-Plated Aluminum
Legendary Land
If this would enter the battlefield, instead you may exile a land card that has at least two basic land types from your hand. If you do, put ~ onto the battlefield. If you don't, exile ~.
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Dead Bunny Isle
Land
T, You get a poison counter: Add W or U to your mana pool. (A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.)
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I think they made the poison duals in the design for a set (Maybe SoM-block, but could also be one of the future-sighted lands), but Development didn't want them because they are too powerful in the large amounts of games you play that aren't against infect.
I think they made the poison duals in the design for a set (Maybe SoM-block, but could also be one of the future-sighted lands), but Development didn't want them because they are too powerful in the large amounts of games you play that aren't against infect.
MaRo has said that they were originally made for Unglued 2, but development didn't want poison in the set. He also said at one point that the Dimir one was at one point in the Future Sight file, before being removed for the same reason.
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Whenever enter battlefield, any opponent may search for basic land in library or put any basic land from hang to battlefield tapped which won't untap in that player's next untap step.
Honestly I think they should just make the dual lands with
If X land was not played from your hand, ETB tapped and you add one mana that the land produces immediately as it enters the battlefield.
This will result as no real downside (you will still stifle the fetchland) and you will just fetch it when you want to use it. And if you play it from your hand its the exact same as a fetch. This should also be put into commander sets and not allowed into modern. This would heavily revive legacy.
Currently playing: Legacy: RUB Grixis Delver | RUGB 4c Control Modern: UR Affinity | RWG Burn EDH: R Krenko Combo | UR Mizzix WomboCombo | U Arcum Daggson Combo | WUBG Atraxa Dumpster Fire French Duels EDH: BUG Leovold, Emissary of Trest Prison Standard: Standard Sucks
Honestly I think they should just make the dual lands with
If X land was not played from your hand, ETB tapped and you add one mana that the land produces immediately as it enters the battlefield.
This will result as no real downside (you will still stifle the fetchland) and you will just fetch it when you want to use it. And if you play it from your hand its the exact same as a fetch. This should also be put into commander sets and not allowed into modern. This would heavily revive legacy.
I think it is hilarious that they can't print functional reprints of the dual lands but they can print strictly better versions of them if they wanted to.
"Glorious Tundra"
Land- Island Plains
When Glorious Tundra enters the battlefield, tap or untap target land.
Tap to add U or W to your mana pool
this would be "okay" to print under the reserved list... although, something stupid like this wouldn't get printed... but it doesn't violate the reserved list.
I think the argument over what functional means is coming down to them not defining functional properly. A legendary dual land, functionally, is nothing like an actual dual land and I think that this is the kind of amendment WOTC would be comfortable making, just like when they closed the foil loophole. Even if they were looking to get around their wording of what "functional" is defined as, they could just print this:
Subterranean Lake
Land - Island Swamp
When Subterranean Lake enters the battlefield, sacrifice all other permanents named Subterranean Lake.
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Modern Ux Whirza Rb Goblins
Legacy U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
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Why would Legacy die off instead of just change manabases?
Wouldn't modern be more at risk given there is a new card frame? New Modern with the new black bottom frame could become a format one day, and then what is the point to the modern manabases of shocklands? The shocklands would become the legacy staple. Legacy wont die, because legacy is simply all the cards you and your playgroup owns minus a small banlist.
Are people still dumb enough to think Modern will be supplanted by a 5% card frame change? 'New Modern' will never be a thing because it doesn't have a list of cards that can never be reprinted. The fact we got a reprint set in 2013 and are getting one this year shows they will never need to make another format when they are supporting Modern now. That and they've been reprinting staples in standard sets where applicable, especially mana bases where they see higher print circulation.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
For some reason people don't get that they firstly wanted a new format that didn't have a reserved list and had a power level close to Extended than Legacy. For it, the new frame (or more precisely, the first set with the new frame) was just a convenient cutting point, not the origin of the format in itself.
Which is why one of two things will happen, either Vintage/Legacy will move to be an entirely digital format (which is bad), or they will eventually abolish the reserved list (which is good.)
Heck, a lot of the cards on there shouldn't be due to being reprinted in Revised (such as the dual lands.)
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Rituals such as Dark Ritual are no longer in flavor for black. They have moved to Red (see Seething Song).
Personally, I am of the opinion that exchanging one resource for another (as with Sacrifice) however, is flavorfully very black, and would love for that type of mana boost to return to black in the future.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
So basically Plague Sliver violated the reserved list?
Let's just assume that this thread is about having them without the basic land type because otherwise you guys go off on 4 pages arguing about the reserved list, and this solution avoids all that.
I _could_ however, see them making a legendary mana-confluence esque thing, that creates any color of mana but without the pain drawbacks or whatnot, perhaps something along these lines:
Diamond Monolith
Legendary Land
t: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Until after the next time Diamond Monolith is used to generate mana, it can't be used to generate that color of mana.
((Can't be tapped for the same color multiple times in a row))
Gleaming Fae Realm
Legendary Land
When Gleaming Fae Realm enters the battlefield, it gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has.
t: Gleaming Fae Realm gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has.
1: Gleaming Fae Realm gains a basic land type of your choice in addition to any other types it has.
((can be tapped for whatever color you want to set it as when it comes down, and may add other types over time for investment, permanently gains the new types as long as it remains on the battlefield))
I think it would be more likely to end the reserve list than to print simple mechanical 'legendary' duals.
The problem is that those both suffer from non-visual memory issues. They're highly unlikely to make anything that would require you to write down types chosen for it. I think we'd be more likely to see things like these:
City of Gold-Plated Aluminum
Legendary Land
If this would enter the battlefield, instead you may exile a land card that has at least two basic land types from your hand. If you do, put ~ onto the battlefield. If you don't, exile ~.
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.
Dead Bunny Isle
Land
T, You get a poison counter: Add W or U to your mana pool. (A player with ten or more poison counters loses the game.)
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Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
MaRo has said that they were originally made for Unglued 2, but development didn't want poison in the set. He also said at one point that the Dimir one was at one point in the Future Sight file, before being removed for the same reason.
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R/W/G
Legendary Land - Mountain Plains Forest
Whenever enter battlefield, any opponent may search for basic land in library or put any basic land from hang to battlefield tapped which won't untap in that player's next untap step.
Land
It is any basic type.
Whenever is tapped for mana, it procudes mana of random color instead.
If X land was not played from your hand, ETB tapped and you add one mana that the land produces immediately as it enters the battlefield.
This will result as no real downside (you will still stifle the fetchland) and you will just fetch it when you want to use it. And if you play it from your hand its the exact same as a fetch. This should also be put into commander sets and not allowed into modern. This would heavily revive legacy.
Upside - Amulet of Vigor
Downside - Back to Basics
Legacy:
RUB Grixis Delver | RUGB 4c Control
Modern:
UR Affinity | RWG Burn
EDH:
R Krenko Combo | UR Mizzix WomboCombo | U Arcum Daggson Combo | WUBG Atraxa Dumpster Fire
French Duels EDH:
BUG Leovold, Emissary of Trest Prison
Standard:
Standard Sucks
That would still pretty much be the Alpha duals.
And if the two reprint set for modern have clued you in,they aren't looking to revive legacy.
BAfter the lights go out on you, after your worthless life is through. I will remember how you scream...B
"Glorious Tundra"
Land- Island Plains
When Glorious Tundra enters the battlefield, tap or untap target land.
Tap to add U or W to your mana pool
this would be "okay" to print under the reserved list... although, something stupid like this wouldn't get printed... but it doesn't violate the reserved list.
Subterranean Lake
Land - Island Swamp
When Subterranean Lake enters the battlefield, sacrifice all other permanents named Subterranean Lake.
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist