Landfall is a likely candidate for returning mechanic in Battle for Zendikar, and if it's anything like the original Zendikar block there will be an emphasis on ramping. Kicker returned in Zendikar as a means of capitalizing on that ramp and evolved into Multikicker in Worldwake, encouraging players to pump as much mana as possible into their spells. With BFZ rotating into a Standard with a block that cares about +1/+1 counters and creature power, I'm thinking BFZ will feature at least one if not two mechanics that follow Kicker and Multikicker's example, with the focus being on making creatures bigger using +1/+1 counters.
The first mechanic is an alternative cost that has the creature enter the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to its power on it, effectively doubling its power.
Counterkicker -cost- (When this creature enters the battlefield, put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to its power on it if you cast it for its counterkicker cost.)
Counterbear 1G
Creature
Counterkicker 2GG(This creature enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to its power on it if you cast it for its counterkicker cost.)
2/2
The second takes a more Multikicker or Replicate-esque approach, where the creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time you paid the cost.
Multicounter -cost- (This creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time you paid its multicounter cost.)
Multicounterbear 1G
Creature
Multicounter 1G(This creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time you paid its multicounter cost.)
2/2
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
The problem is that both of those mechanics are more narrow versions of Kicker/Multikicker. If they want to return kicker, why not just return it in full?
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The problem is that both of those mechanics are more narrow versions of Kicker/Multikicker. If they want to return kicker, why not just return it in full?
Because there's only so much room for returning mechanics in a set and Landfall is higher priority. Not to mention, it would be nice for more distinct mechanics to carve out their own design space and not just default to Kicker. Finding alternatives to Kicker is the whole point.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
It's way too early to speculate on BFZ mechanics, and don't forget Zendikar was ravaged by the Eldrazi. There were no Allies or Landfall cards in Rise. There is no guarantee they pretend Rise never happened and continue after Worldwake with more landfall and kicker stuff.
The problem with Gravestorm is that it's very difficult to remember a count on something you weren't counting in the first place. Suddenly someone casts a gravestorm spell in the middle of a busy turn. Good luck counting, especially if tokens were involved. From a programming perspective: Wizards seems to enjoy booleans (true/false) over counts. So "IF a creature died" gets the favor over "the NUMBER of creatures that died". Look at Metalcraft vs Affinity for example. Metalcraft is a boolean (just like Threshold). You have metalcraft or you don't. You have threshold or you don't. Affinity on the other hand counts. Gravestorm counts.
That said Strive and Overload are both variations of Replicate. The idea of Replicate was rather new, and now we see these.
Strive doesn't actually make copies, and Overload makes things easier by saying "one or all?"
Kicker was a brilliant idea, that basically contains most additional costs. Many cards with additional costs could be reworded to have kicker.
Many mechanics are more or less limited kicker. Exploit is basically Kicker - sacrifice a creature.
Some cards could have been worded as Kicker - reveal a Dragon from your hand.
Kicker is an evergreen that will appear all the time, in one way or another. At least as an inspiration for other mechanics.
I prefer to think of those mechanics as more "focused" Kicker. As add/alt costs go Kicker is the generic brand X vanilla ice cream while the many offshoots are more uniqe and exciting flavors.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Endless pragmatic discussion about minor changes to Kicker to make it non-Kicker.
Evoke, Entwine and all the like are riffs on the same thing: you can pay extra to get bonus. Whether it's a creature, an effect, or a copy.
We're never going to agree, here or in another forum. It's just firing shots and selective listening.
Limited kicker or very situational kicker, I know it's not LITERALLY kicker, but the idea is everywhere.
If I put a drop of lemonade sirop in a swimming pool, the swimming pool is technically no longer filled with water, but filled with lemonade.
If I put a drop of lemonade sirop in a swimming pool, the swimming pool is technically no longer filled with water, but filled with lemonade.
I am not a native English speaker so I am pretty sure I don't get the 7th degree sarcasm behind this and I apologize for that but I am pretty sure you wouldn't drink a 'lemonade' with that density of halogens.
You change a little thing and say that the whole argument becomes invalid. It's 99% Kicker, but a small exception, so it isn't.
Evoke was basically a reverse kicker. Shriekmaw is basically Terror with a 3/2 Fear for 3 attached.
Exploit then, is a reverse Evoke. You get the creature, and maybe the effect if you sac the creature (or another).
Overload is not a variation on Kicker. Kicker is an additional cost while Overload is an alternative cost. I'm fairly certain Overload is one of the few things that can't be replicated with Kicker on account of how targets are chosen. Conceptually its similar but it is mechanically distinct.
The problem is that both of those mechanics are more narrow versions of Kicker/Multikicker. If they want to return kicker, why not just return it in full?
Almost everything is a variation on Kicker. The existence of casting costs can be considered a variation on kicker. They've decided that Kicker will be devoted to making things "bigger" in some way. The two in the OP are too close to kicker and multikicker to be printed, though.
Overload is treated as a variation on Kicker in the sense that you're paying extra mana to get a bigger spell. It may be in the form of an alternate cost as opposed to an additional cost, but the principle remains the same. Ditto for Entwine, Fuse, and so forth.
The similarities between Counterkicker and regular ol' Kicker would be a concern if they were anywhere near each other in the same Standard, but as it stands Counterkicker (that's a testing name, by the way; I'd fully expect both mechanics to get proper, more flavorful names) is simply a variant of Kicker geared towards putting +1/+1 counters on creatures. Given the likely theme of survivors banding together and helping one another, it is possible that the mechanic allows you to choose which creature gets the +1/+1 counters like so:
Counterkicker -cost- (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may pay -cost-. If you do, put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to this creature's power on target creature you control.)
Counterbear 1G
Creature
Counterkicker 1G(When this creature enters the battlefield, you may pay 1G. If you do, put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to this creature's power on target creature you control.)
2/2
This version also adapts ETB technology like Exploit uses, which has the dual benefit of not resembling Kicker so much and eliminating the risk of paying the additional cost only to lose the spell to a counter. Plus it can combo with flicker effects. :3 The biggest developmental danger with such an effect is that any lord-style bonuses can drastically increase the counter output so you're suddenly paying 1G for three or four +1/+1 counters instead of just two.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Overload is treated as a variation on Kicker in the sense that you're paying extra mana to get a bigger spell. It may be in the form of an alternate cost as opposed to an additional cost, but the principle remains the same. Ditto for Entwine, Fuse, and so forth.
So you'd say that [c]Heat Ray[/i] basically just has multikicker?
There are significant differences between costs, alternative costs, and additional costs. Sure there's a conceptual link between lots of effect but there's also a conceptual link between a toy car and a spaceship.
The similarities between Counterkicker and regular ol' Kicker would be a concern if they were anywhere near each other in the same Standard, but as it stands Counterkicker (that's a testing name, by the way; I'd fully expect both mechanics to get proper, more flavorful names) is simply a variant of Kicker geared towards putting +1/+1 counters on creatures.
They've used Kicker and Multikicker lots of times to put +1/+1 counters on creatures. Why would they want another variation on Kicker to do that?
So far Kicker variants have only been for doing things that have previously been unheard of or very rare as plain Kicker costs.
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The first mechanic is an alternative cost that has the creature enter the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to its power on it, effectively doubling its power.
Counterkicker -cost- (When this creature enters the battlefield, put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to its power on it if you cast it for its counterkicker cost.)
Counterbear 1G
Creature
Counterkicker 2GG (This creature enters the battlefield with a number of +1/+1 counters equal to its power on it if you cast it for its counterkicker cost.)
2/2
The second takes a more Multikicker or Replicate-esque approach, where the creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time you paid the cost.
Multicounter -cost- (This creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time you paid its multicounter cost.)
Multicounterbear 1G
Creature
Multicounter 1G (This creature enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each time you paid its multicounter cost.)
2/2
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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Because there's only so much room for returning mechanics in a set and Landfall is higher priority. Not to mention, it would be nice for more distinct mechanics to carve out their own design space and not just default to Kicker. Finding alternatives to Kicker is the whole point.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
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http://www.staalmedia.nl/nexus/#generate
The problem with Gravestorm is that it's very difficult to remember a count on something you weren't counting in the first place. Suddenly someone casts a gravestorm spell in the middle of a busy turn. Good luck counting, especially if tokens were involved. From a programming perspective: Wizards seems to enjoy booleans (true/false) over counts. So "IF a creature died" gets the favor over "the NUMBER of creatures that died". Look at Metalcraft vs Affinity for example. Metalcraft is a boolean (just like Threshold). You have metalcraft or you don't. You have threshold or you don't. Affinity on the other hand counts. Gravestorm counts.
That said Strive and Overload are both variations of Replicate. The idea of Replicate was rather new, and now we see these.
Strive doesn't actually make copies, and Overload makes things easier by saying "one or all?"
Kicker was a brilliant idea, that basically contains most additional costs. Many cards with additional costs could be reworded to have kicker.
Many mechanics are more or less limited kicker. Exploit is basically Kicker - sacrifice a creature.
Some cards could have been worded as Kicker - reveal a Dragon from your hand.
Kicker is an evergreen that will appear all the time, in one way or another. At least as an inspiration for other mechanics.
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(")(")
I'm an AI making Magic cards.
http://www.staalmedia.nl/nexus/#generate
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Evoke, Entwine and all the like are riffs on the same thing: you can pay extra to get bonus. Whether it's a creature, an effect, or a copy.
We're never going to agree, here or in another forum. It's just firing shots and selective listening.
Limited kicker or very situational kicker, I know it's not LITERALLY kicker, but the idea is everywhere.
If I put a drop of lemonade sirop in a swimming pool, the swimming pool is technically no longer filled with water, but filled with lemonade.
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(")(")
I'm an AI making Magic cards.
http://www.staalmedia.nl/nexus/#generate
You change a little thing and say that the whole argument becomes invalid. It's 99% Kicker, but a small exception, so it isn't.
Evoke was basically a reverse kicker. Shriekmaw is basically Terror with a 3/2 Fear for 3 attached.
Exploit then, is a reverse Evoke. You get the creature, and maybe the effect if you sac the creature (or another).
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I'm an AI making Magic cards.
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Almost everything is a variation on Kicker. The existence of casting costs can be considered a variation on kicker. They've decided that Kicker will be devoted to making things "bigger" in some way. The two in the OP are too close to kicker and multikicker to be printed, though.
The similarities between Counterkicker and regular ol' Kicker would be a concern if they were anywhere near each other in the same Standard, but as it stands Counterkicker (that's a testing name, by the way; I'd fully expect both mechanics to get proper, more flavorful names) is simply a variant of Kicker geared towards putting +1/+1 counters on creatures. Given the likely theme of survivors banding together and helping one another, it is possible that the mechanic allows you to choose which creature gets the +1/+1 counters like so:
Counterkicker -cost- (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may pay -cost-. If you do, put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to this creature's power on target creature you control.)
Counterbear 1G
Creature
Counterkicker 1G (When this creature enters the battlefield, you may pay 1G. If you do, put a number of +1/+1 counters equal to this creature's power on target creature you control.)
2/2
This version also adapts ETB technology like Exploit uses, which has the dual benefit of not resembling Kicker so much and eliminating the risk of paying the additional cost only to lose the spell to a counter. Plus it can combo with flicker effects. :3 The biggest developmental danger with such an effect is that any lord-style bonuses can drastically increase the counter output so you're suddenly paying 1G for three or four +1/+1 counters instead of just two.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
So you'd say that [c]Heat Ray[/i] basically just has multikicker?
There are significant differences between costs, alternative costs, and additional costs. Sure there's a conceptual link between lots of effect but there's also a conceptual link between a toy car and a spaceship.
They've used Kicker and Multikicker lots of times to put +1/+1 counters on creatures. Why would they want another variation on Kicker to do that?
So far Kicker variants have only been for doing things that have previously been unheard of or very rare as plain Kicker costs.