Yeah Young Pyromancer deserves the spot and him been an uncomon doesn't change it and i think it just makes him more interesting that an uncomon card is this amazing
As dumb and irrational as it sounds, I honestly think it's more of a gut thing. Young Pyromancer, powerful as it is, just doesn't feel right in the context of the other four cards.
As dumb and irrational as it sounds, I honestly think it's more of a gut thing. Young Pyromancer, powerful as it is, just doesn't feel right in the context of the other four cards.
I like how your post leads so well into your signature. I kind of know what you mean, though.
It's probably just the name throwing you off. If it was called "Master Pyromancer" there would most likely be less objection.
Haha, yeah, possibly. Maybe my biggest issue is the price. I mean, uncommons are three times more plentiful than rares, which means Young Pyromancer would be $10 rare, theoretically. I guess I just don't think that's expensive enough to be in the club.
Actually someone a couple of weeks ago asked maro this very question and his answer was something to the effect of we dont intentionally print mistakes. I will see if I can find the quote.
First, if a card is intentionally printed, it is not a mistake; a mistake is, by definition, an accident.
You are aware that Skullclamp, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are three cards that were intentionally printed as is and were basically admitted mistakes right? One of them is even in this "Cycle" you are talking about.
I think the difference between any of these 4 cards and something like Young Pyromancer and Eidolon of the Great Revel is that their abilities are ones you can translate to noncreature permanents and still have eternal format worthy cards, where if you take the abilities away from the two red ones, they become a lot worse and their is something to be said about that I think.
Even Standard has this going on right now with Siege Rhino, powerful card cracking down on the format with an oppressive ability stapled onto a body but if you take the ability and stick in on an enchantment for the same CMC, it becomes practically unplayable. There is a good shot that Pyromancer would not see play in Legacy and perhaps even Modern (but more so Legacy) if it was just an enchantment. Eidolon seems like the same sort of deal.
It's probably just the name throwing you off. If it was called "Master Pyromancer" there would most likely be less objection.
Haha, yeah, possibly. Maybe my biggest issue is the price. I mean, uncommons are three times more plentiful than rares, which means Young Pyromancer would be $10 rare, theoretically. I guess I just don't think that's expensive enough to be in the club.
that's not exactly how economics works
there still has to be demand
if there's demand for X copies of a card, then the X + 1 copy will have no value because no one will want/need it
It's probably just the name throwing you off. If it was called "Master Pyromancer" there would most likely be less objection.
Haha, yeah, possibly. Maybe my biggest issue is the price. I mean, uncommons are three times more plentiful than rares, which means Young Pyromancer would be $10 rare, theoretically. I guess I just don't think that's expensive enough to be in the club.
that's not exactly how economics works
there still has to be demand
if there's demand for X copies of a card, then the X + 1 copy will have no value because no one will want/need it
#oversimplifying
I think that's kind of my point... by normalizing the cost to account for the rarity, we see the demand isn't high enough to make it as expensive as the other members of this pseudocycle are. Since the demand is theoretically lower, the power level of the card is lower.
This wasn't exactly meant to be a rigorous proof, however.
It appears as if you are implying that prices is fixed only by demand without considering supply. You can't really just compare an uncommon from a recently printed set with a rare from years ago, at least not without more detailed knowledge of print runs.
Rarity is not a perfect art. Every rarity has crap, and every rarity has cards above the power average.
Young Pyromancer could have been a rare, its power is not tied to its rarity in anyway, only its secondary market price. I wouldn't use card price exclusively as a measure of power, since reprinting, large set vs small set, etc, all change the economics of a card.
Besides, I thought this pseudo cycle was strictly 1C for 2/1, Goyf is on another level imho, like Mindsculptor.
Part of the problem with this discussion is that we can't all agree on what defines the cycle, other than that they all cost 1C. Is it price? Format ubiquity? Number of different architypes it fits in? If they feel right? Rarity? A combination of those?
My opinion is that red has yet to find its piece of the pie, as it were. If Dualcaster Mage would have been 1R then it might finally have been closed, but alas. In any event, I think it works something like this; each of those cards is the tier 1 of two drops for their respective color (Scavenging Ooze being more like the tier 2 for green). A few of red's cards have come close. Young Pyromancer being the closest of them, but in my opinion it is like tier 1.25. It's very very close, given how powerful it has the potential to be, but just doesn't quite fit. I don't care that it's uncommon, I care that it's a little bit too situational. If you land it on turn 2, it's likely going to be insane. But later, with no other cards in hand, it's Goblin Piker. The others aren't necessarily so much better in that instance, but they provide card advantage in a way that is, in my opinion, more powerful than what Pyro does. Yes, each of them does require you to build your deck a certain way, but to a degree that is less than Pyro. Stoneforge really only requires one or two good equipment to be at its best, not really taking up slots in your deck. It fits nicely into a lot of different deck types. Bob may have the restriction of low CMC but that's hardly even a problem, given how Jund makes it work and is just a pile of goodstuff. Snappy only wants some instants and sorceries, which you're playing anyway. Goyf is just a big guy, but his rate is the best among pretty much all creatures most of the time. Pyro needs you to maximize free spells, or spells that are as cheap and useful as possible. You need critical mass. Which is fine in legacy and vintage, where you're already doing that. Even to some extent in modern. It just isn't quite there for me.
As far as Goblin Piledriver and Eidolon of the Great Revel are concerned, I feel they share a similar fate as Ooze. Eidolon sadly is too narrow for consideration; you only want it in a deck that focuses on burn. Which is the same with Piledriver and goblins. Close but no cigar.
Actually someone a couple of weeks ago asked maro this very question and his answer was something to the effect of we dont intentionally print mistakes. I will see if I can find the quote.
First, if a card is intentionally printed, it is not a mistake; a mistake is, by definition, an accident.
Second, how are those other cards that I mentioned "mistakes?" They are certainly very powerful, but I see no reason for WotC to regret printing them (although I do believe that each of them could have cost 1 more mana each and been perfectly balanced, that way).
Well, Wizards has reason to regret Stoneforge Mystic for obvious reasons. Its interaction with the swords wasn't thought to be that powerful. Snapcaster Mage was supposed to be red until Tiago Chan refused. Goyf was supposed to be a 3 mana */* instead of a 2 mana */1 but development changed it because it wasn't seeing play. Not sure about Bob though.
I like how your post leads so well into your signature. I kind of know what you mean, though.
Haha, yeah, possibly. Maybe my biggest issue is the price. I mean, uncommons are three times more plentiful than rares, which means Young Pyromancer would be $10 rare, theoretically. I guess I just don't think that's expensive enough to be in the club.
You are aware that Skullclamp, Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor are three cards that were intentionally printed as is and were basically admitted mistakes right? One of them is even in this "Cycle" you are talking about.
I think the difference between any of these 4 cards and something like Young Pyromancer and Eidolon of the Great Revel is that their abilities are ones you can translate to noncreature permanents and still have eternal format worthy cards, where if you take the abilities away from the two red ones, they become a lot worse and their is something to be said about that I think.
Even Standard has this going on right now with Siege Rhino, powerful card cracking down on the format with an oppressive ability stapled onto a body but if you take the ability and stick in on an enchantment for the same CMC, it becomes practically unplayable. There is a good shot that Pyromancer would not see play in Legacy and perhaps even Modern (but more so Legacy) if it was just an enchantment. Eidolon seems like the same sort of deal.
that's not exactly how economics works
there still has to be demand
if there's demand for X copies of a card, then the X + 1 copy will have no value because no one will want/need it
#oversimplifying
I think that's kind of my point... by normalizing the cost to account for the rarity, we see the demand isn't high enough to make it as expensive as the other members of this pseudocycle are. Since the demand is theoretically lower, the power level of the card is lower.
This wasn't exactly meant to be a rigorous proof, however.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Young Pyromancer could have been a rare, its power is not tied to its rarity in anyway, only its secondary market price. I wouldn't use card price exclusively as a measure of power, since reprinting, large set vs small set, etc, all change the economics of a card.
Besides, I thought this pseudo cycle was strictly 1C for 2/1, Goyf is on another level imho, like Mindsculptor.
My opinion is that red has yet to find its piece of the pie, as it were. If Dualcaster Mage would have been 1R then it might finally have been closed, but alas. In any event, I think it works something like this; each of those cards is the tier 1 of two drops for their respective color (Scavenging Ooze being more like the tier 2 for green). A few of red's cards have come close. Young Pyromancer being the closest of them, but in my opinion it is like tier 1.25. It's very very close, given how powerful it has the potential to be, but just doesn't quite fit. I don't care that it's uncommon, I care that it's a little bit too situational. If you land it on turn 2, it's likely going to be insane. But later, with no other cards in hand, it's Goblin Piker. The others aren't necessarily so much better in that instance, but they provide card advantage in a way that is, in my opinion, more powerful than what Pyro does. Yes, each of them does require you to build your deck a certain way, but to a degree that is less than Pyro. Stoneforge really only requires one or two good equipment to be at its best, not really taking up slots in your deck. It fits nicely into a lot of different deck types. Bob may have the restriction of low CMC but that's hardly even a problem, given how Jund makes it work and is just a pile of goodstuff. Snappy only wants some instants and sorceries, which you're playing anyway. Goyf is just a big guy, but his rate is the best among pretty much all creatures most of the time. Pyro needs you to maximize free spells, or spells that are as cheap and useful as possible. You need critical mass. Which is fine in legacy and vintage, where you're already doing that. Even to some extent in modern. It just isn't quite there for me.
As far as Goblin Piledriver and Eidolon of the Great Revel are concerned, I feel they share a similar fate as Ooze. Eidolon sadly is too narrow for consideration; you only want it in a deck that focuses on burn. Which is the same with Piledriver and goblins. Close but no cigar.
Well, Wizards has reason to regret Stoneforge Mystic for obvious reasons. Its interaction with the swords wasn't thought to be that powerful. Snapcaster Mage was supposed to be red until Tiago Chan refused. Goyf was supposed to be a 3 mana */* instead of a 2 mana */1 but development changed it because it wasn't seeing play. Not sure about Bob though.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Explodatog
1R
Creature - Atog
Sacrifice an artifact: ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
1/2