I notice that dark confidant, snapcaster mage, stoneforge mystic, and tarmogoyf all have something in common: they all are rare creatures that cost only two mana to summon and are extremely powerful for that cost. While I highly doubt that WotC intended for them to be a cycle, they nevertheless do form a pseudo-cycle of sorts, especially since each one is a different color. The only color that is not represented among that cycle is red, which has me wondering (even hoping) if there shall be a red creature that costs two mana and is insanely powerful for that cost.
What does everyone else say about this? How likely is it that WotC shall print a red creature that is akin to the other four that I mentioned?
Oh yea cause red is really hurting in the two drop creature department between young pyromancer and eidolon of the great revelation. Poor poor ignored red. But yea I think (and hope) that's as good as it gets for red at least for a little while.
Oh yea cause red is really hurting in the two drop creature department between young pyromancer and eidolon of the great revelation. Poor poor ignored red. But yea I think (and hope) that's as good as it gets for red at least for a little while.
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Red may not have a single obvious one, but there are a few that reach that power level.
Young Pyromancer- Not rare, but one of the very best creatures in every eternal format stretching back to Vintage. Massively played with the new influx of Cruise-based tempo. Eidolon of the Great Revel- The new king of burn. Respect him (and try him on for size in modern if you're unconvinced). Goblin Recruiter- Stacking your deck is a stupidly overpowered ability. Banned in Legacy for a reason.
Oh yea cause red is really hurting in the two drop creature department between young pyromancer and eidolon of the great revelation. Poor poor ignored red. But yea I think (and hope) that's as good as it gets for red at least for a little while.
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
I expected some sorta argument here, but power level was not one of them. Card is bonkers and is dominating the mtgo meta for a reason. It singlehandedly makes burn a tier one deck in modern. What WOULD be powerful enough?
Oh yea cause red is really hurting in the two drop creature department between young pyromancer and eidolon of the great revelation. Poor poor ignored red. But yea I think (and hope) that's as good as it gets for red at least for a little while.
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
I expected some sorta argument here, but power level was not one of them. Card is bonkers and is dominating the mtgo meta for a reason. It singlehandedly makes burn a tier one deck in modern. What WOULD be powerful enough?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Actually someone a couple of weeks ago asked maro this very question and his answer was something to the effect of we dont intentionally print mistakes. I will see if I can find the quote.
Oh yea cause red is really hurting in the two drop creature department between young pyromancer and eidolon of the great revelation. Poor poor ignored red. But yea I think (and hope) that's as good as it gets for red at least for a little while.
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
I expected some sorta argument here, but power level was not one of them. Card is bonkers and is dominating the mtgo meta for a reason. It singlehandedly makes burn a tier one deck in modern. What WOULD be powerful enough?
I really think the biggest issue here is people just don't respect burn and want something that fits junds game plan.
All of these cards are, to an extent, build arounds. It's just eidolon doesn't fit in the same strategies as the rest because it's punishing you for something you want to do as well. Bleh. I guess I just prefer actual build arounds like eidolon to goodstuff like snap and tarmo.
Oh yea cause red is really hurting in the two drop creature department between young pyromancer and eidolon of the great revelation. Poor poor ignored red. But yea I think (and hope) that's as good as it gets for red at least for a little while.
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
I expected some sorta argument here, but power level was not one of them. Card is bonkers and is dominating the mtgo meta for a reason. It singlehandedly makes burn a tier one deck in modern. What WOULD be powerful enough?
I really think the biggest issue here is people just don't respect burn and want something that fits junds game plan.
All of these cards are, to an extent, build arounds. It's just eidolon doesn't fit in the same strategies as the rest because it's punishing you for something you want to do as well. Bleh. I guess I just prefer actual build arounds like eidolon to goodstuff like snap and tarmo.
I agree with everything you said.
...including the part where you pointed out that Eidolon isn't powerful enough to be considered "goodstuff".
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
I expected some sorta argument here, but power level was not one of them. Card is bonkers and is dominating the mtgo meta for a reason. It singlehandedly makes burn a tier one deck in modern. What WOULD be powerful enough?
I really think the biggest issue here is people just don't respect burn and want something that fits junds game plan.
All of these cards are, to an extent, build arounds. It's just eidolon doesn't fit in the same strategies as the rest because it's punishing you for something you want to do as well. Bleh. I guess I just prefer actual build arounds like eidolon to goodstuff like snap and tarmo.
I agree with everything you said.
...including the part where you pointed out that Eidolon isn't powerful enough to be considered "goodstuff".
Bahahaha fiiiiine. I guess I'm just bitter though I mean if they print more ways to get around eidolons downside such a delve costs and aether vial, I feel it'll become just like paying bobs life costs and essentially become good stuff.
I notice that dark confidant, snapcaster mage, stoneforge mystic, and tarmogoyf all have something in common: they all are rare creatures that cost only two mana to summon and are extremely powerful for that cost. While I highly doubt that WotC intended for them to be a cycle, they nevertheless do form a pseudo-cycle of sorts, especially since each one is a different color. The only color that is not represented among that cycle is red, which has me wondering (even hoping) if there shall be a red creature that costs two mana and is insanely powerful for that cost.
What does everyone else say about this? How likely is it that WotC shall print a red creature that is akin to the other four that I mentioned?
I notice that dark confidant, snapcaster mage, stoneforge mystic, and tarmogoyf all have something in common: they all are rare creatures that cost only two mana to summon and are extremely powerful for that cost. While I highly doubt that WotC intended for them to be a cycle, they nevertheless do form a pseudo-cycle of sorts, especially since each one is a different color. The only color that is not represented among that cycle is red, which has me wondering (even hoping) if there shall be a red creature that costs two mana and is insanely powerful for that cost.
What does everyone else say about this? How likely is it that WotC shall print a red creature that is akin to the other four that I mentioned?
There's a reason goyfs are pushing $200 while scoozes are under $10. Scavenging ooze is not part of this cycle of mistakes, something also shown by the fact that WotC deliberately reprinted it to put it in modern.
Actually someone a couple of weeks ago asked maro this very question and his answer was something to the effect of we dont intentionally print mistakes. I will see if I can find the quote.
First, if a card is intentionally printed, it is not a mistake; a mistake is, by definition, an accident.
Second, how are those other cards that I mentioned "mistakes?" They are certainly very powerful, but I see no reason for WotC to regret printing them (although I do believe that each of them could have cost 1 more mana each and been perfectly balanced, that way).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
From Maro "goldenpineapples said: Is completing the "power two-drop cycle" (Stoneforge mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Dark Confidant, missing red card, Tarmogoyf for those unaware) a thing on the radar at WotC or just community speculation? And how do you feel about specifically Young Pyromancer being more of a reason for blue decks to play red than anything else? ("Spells matter" being heavily in blue's favor, tournament-wise)
We don’t consider it a thing. Also, we don’t go out of our way to make broken cards so it’s not a hole we would design to.
Actually someone a couple of weeks ago asked maro this very question and his answer was something to the effect of we dont intentionally print mistakes. I will see if I can find the quote.
First, if a card is intentionally printed, it is not a mistake; a mistake is, by definition, an accident.
Second, how are those other cards that I mentioned "mistakes?" They are certainly very powerful, but I see no reason for WotC to regret printing them (although I do believe that each of them could have cost 1 more mana each and been perfectly balanced, that way).
Maro must have meant that those cards were accidentally more powerful than they wished. Nothing worng with calling them a mistake.
In my opinion, its bad when one card is THE card, meaning that it is the best in slot and by a significant margin it absolutely crushes the competition (other 2 mana creatures). I rather see more variety, more choices.
I guess thats kinda the reason maro calls them mistakes.
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Young Pyromancer is way better than any of these "rare" creatures. It is the most common creature in the VSL. Josh Utter-Leyton called it the best creature in vintage. The idea that rarity means power level is bogus. Lightning Bolt, Ponder, Brainstorm, Force of Will, Thirst for Knowledge, Demonic Tutor, Sol Ring, Treasure Cruise all disagree with the rarity=power level.
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():
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I've got a "powered" peasant cube. You can draft it here.
Brief description:
---Primary------Secondary W Midrange----Control U Control------Tempo B Aggro--------Necromancy R Aggro--------Reach G Midrange-----Ramp
Goblin Piledriver is also a candidate for the "they already did it"-award.
That is a nice card, but it is a tribal card (i.e., it requires creatures of a specific type to function), while none of the other creatures that have been mentioned in this thread are tribal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Goblin Piledriver is also a candidate for the "they already did it"-award.
That is a nice card, but it is a tribal card (i.e., it requires creatures of a specific type to function), while none of the other creatures that have been mentioned in this thread are tribal.
And? Stoneforge Mystic requires that you play equipment. How is that so different from Piledriver needing goblins?
Pretty much all of the cards in the 'cycle' have some deck building constraint tied to them anyways, right? Stoneforge requires equipment, Snapcaster requires instant and sorcery cards, and Dark Confidant can be bad if you run too many cards with high CMC.
Goblin Piledriver is also a candidate for the "they already did it"-award.
That is a nice card, but it is a tribal card (i.e., it requires creatures of a specific type to function), while none of the other creatures that have been mentioned in this thread are tribal.
And? Stoneforge Mystic requires that you play equipment. How is that so different from Piledriver needing goblins?
Because Stoneforge doesn't feed off of equipment to be good, it just requires that there are like three of them in your deck. Piledriver requires that you play enough goblins that you get them with your Piledriver.
If I had to pick a red card to finish the cycle, it would be Young Pyromancer, but I don't feel like it's quite on the same level. And that's not because it's an uncommon.
If you have ever played dever, you will know that young pyromancer the best card in the deck. I think saying "Rare" is excluding many powerful cards. I sure hope that someday people will come to a consensus about young pyromancer, so I know that I dont have to spend at lest $200 for a playset for one of these two-drops.
This will always be debatable since this isn't an official "cycle."
But I think Young Pyromancer clearly fits. Widely played in Modern and Legacy. Probably the best and most-played creature in Vintage.
If Young Pyromancer doesn't belong in the "cycle," then Tarmogoyf definitely doesn't. Tarmo sees about the same amount of Modern play as Pyro, it sees significantly less Legacy play than pyro, and it sees zero vintage play to my knowledge. I'm not aware of any format (even counting things like Cube and Commander) where Tarmogoyf is definitively better than Young Pyromancer.
What does everyone else say about this? How likely is it that WotC shall print a red creature that is akin to the other four that I mentioned?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Actually, with that being said, perhaps eidolon of the great revel could be considered the red counterpart to the others, but it does not seem quite sufficiently powerful, to me.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Young Pyromancer- Not rare, but one of the very best creatures in every eternal format stretching back to Vintage. Massively played with the new influx of Cruise-based tempo.
Eidolon of the Great Revel- The new king of burn. Respect him (and try him on for size in modern if you're unconvinced).
Goblin Recruiter- Stacking your deck is a stupidly overpowered ability. Banned in Legacy for a reason.
Cubetutor Link
I expected some sorta argument here, but power level was not one of them. Card is bonkers and is dominating the mtgo meta for a reason. It singlehandedly makes burn a tier one deck in modern. What WOULD be powerful enough?
Something splashable.
Snapcaster Mage: 1U
Stoneforge Mystic: 1W
Tarmogoyf: 1G
Dark Confidant: 1B
Eidolon of the Great Revel: RR
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I really think the biggest issue here is people just don't respect burn and want something that fits junds game plan.
All of these cards are, to an extent, build arounds. It's just eidolon doesn't fit in the same strategies as the rest because it's punishing you for something you want to do as well. Bleh. I guess I just prefer actual build arounds like eidolon to goodstuff like snap and tarmo.
I agree with everything you said.
...including the part where you pointed out that Eidolon isn't powerful enough to be considered "goodstuff".
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Bahahaha fiiiiine. I guess I'm just bitter though I mean if they print more ways to get around eidolons downside such a delve costs and aether vial, I feel it'll become just like paying bobs life costs and essentially become good stuff.
There's a reason goyfs are pushing $200 while scoozes are under $10. Scavenging ooze is not part of this cycle of mistakes, something also shown by the fact that WotC deliberately reprinted it to put it in modern.
First, if a card is intentionally printed, it is not a mistake; a mistake is, by definition, an accident.
Second, how are those other cards that I mentioned "mistakes?" They are certainly very powerful, but I see no reason for WotC to regret printing them (although I do believe that each of them could have cost 1 more mana each and been perfectly balanced, that way).
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
We don’t consider it a thing. Also, we don’t go out of our way to make broken cards so it’s not a hole we would design to.
In my opinion, its bad when one card is THE card, meaning that it is the best in slot and by a significant margin it absolutely crushes the competition (other 2 mana creatures). I rather see more variety, more choices.
I guess thats kinda the reason maro calls them mistakes.
Well, there's the answer.
They may accidentally make something that finishes this imaginary "cycle,"
but they won't do it intentionally.
Reprint Stasis!
Control needs more love.
EDH:
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Oona, Queen of the Fae
Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Sen Triplets
The Mimeoplasm
WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW
WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Brief description:
W Midrange----Control
U Control------Tempo
B Aggro--------Necromancy
R Aggro--------Reach
G Midrange-----Ramp
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
That is a nice card, but it is a tribal card (i.e., it requires creatures of a specific type to function), while none of the other creatures that have been mentioned in this thread are tribal.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
And? Stoneforge Mystic requires that you play equipment. How is that so different from Piledriver needing goblins?
Yes, you are correct; I did not think of that when I made my previous post.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Because Stoneforge doesn't feed off of equipment to be good, it just requires that there are like three of them in your deck. Piledriver requires that you play enough goblins that you get them with your Piledriver.
If I had to pick a red card to finish the cycle, it would be Young Pyromancer, but I don't feel like it's quite on the same level. And that's not because it's an uncommon.
If you have ever played dever, you will know that young pyromancer the best card in the deck. I think saying "Rare" is excluding many powerful cards. I sure hope that someday people will come to a consensus about young pyromancer, so I know that I dont have to spend at lest $200 for a playset for one of these two-drops.
But I think Young Pyromancer clearly fits. Widely played in Modern and Legacy. Probably the best and most-played creature in Vintage.
If Young Pyromancer doesn't belong in the "cycle," then Tarmogoyf definitely doesn't. Tarmo sees about the same amount of Modern play as Pyro, it sees significantly less Legacy play than pyro, and it sees zero vintage play to my knowledge. I'm not aware of any format (even counting things like Cube and Commander) where Tarmogoyf is definitively better than Young Pyromancer.