The Horizon Canopy template for each color would have been fair and balanced in the older eras of the game, but I'm not sure they would even put such cards to print now. A shame really. Enemy fast lands and man lands would be super cool.
Why do you say that? WotC reprinted five of the ten painlands in Magic 2015, and horizon canopy is very similar to them, so I see no reason for which they could not have a full cycle of ten lands modeled after the canopy.
Mana wise it's similar, but the card draw aspect is the problem.
Tell me, where is Gandalf? Cause I most desire to speak to him.
That being said, I would really like to see the cycle of enemy manlands come out. Those were just way too awesome not to love. And it would balance out our nonbasic land situation in block constructed.
Wizards has a love-hate relationship with card draw permanents that can lower variance, so lands like Horizon Canopy in a cycle might be taboo for Standard. Unless they printed them into an eternal legal product only, which would be swell
I want the enemy cycle of Future-Shifted lands. Nimbus Maze, Grove, Canopy are a cycle, like it or not. I'd love to see their enemy counterparts.
If that is true, how do you explain the fact that graven cairns was given its own cycle outside of the cycle in which it debuted? If that card could be given its own cycle, then I see no reason for which horizon canopy and nimbus maze could not be given their own cycles, as well.
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I want a river of tears cycle but it's impossible since it takes 20 slots to complete. Grove cycle would be fine in some colors but broken in others. Blue white in particular because control doesn't care about life at all.
Canopy cycle is in a similar boat. Broken in some colors fine in others. In aggro canopy is insane. In control it's still pretty fine because it cantrips at least but the damage is eh. Painlands are not strictly worse because you can tap them for colorless to take nothing but with canopy you don't have a choice when tapping it for mana. The only similarities between the 2 is that you can take damage when tapping them and that they are dual lands.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
I want a river of tears cycle but it's impossible since it takes 20 slots to complete. Grove cycle would be fine in some colors but broken in others. Blue white in particular because control doesn't care about life at all.
Canopy cycle is in a similar boat. Broken in some colors fine in others. In aggro canopy is insane. In control it's still pretty fine because it cantrips at least but the damage is eh. Painlands are not strictly worse because you can tap them for colorless to take nothing but with canopy you don't have a choice when tapping it for mana. The only similarities between the 2 is that you can take damage when tapping them and that they are dual lands.
I can understand how the grove would be too powerful in certain colors, but what about the canopy? What is wrong with that in certain colors? Also, since graven cairns worked very nicely when expanded into its own cycle, would not the same be true for nimbus maze, as well?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
I want a river of tears cycle but it's impossible since it takes 20 slots to complete. Grove cycle would be fine in some colors but broken in others. Blue white in particular because control doesn't care about life at all.
Canopy cycle is in a similar boat. Broken in some colors fine in others. In aggro canopy is insane. In control it's still pretty fine because it cantrips at least but the damage is eh. Painlands are not strictly worse because you can tap them for colorless to take nothing but with canopy you don't have a choice when tapping it for mana. The only similarities between the 2 is that you can take damage when tapping them and that they are dual lands.
I can understand how the grove would be too powerful in certain colors, but what about the canopy? What is wrong with that in certain colors? Also, since graven cairns worked very nicely when expanded into its own cycle, would not the same be true for nimbus maze, as well?
Horizon Canopy turned into a cycle is dangerous for things like Storm, if there was a red/blue version. A land that can be turned into a cantrip in a deck that doesn't need much mana to combo off makes those kind of decks incredibly more consistent. They also don't care about the damage penalty when they are working right. If they made a Horizon Canopy cycle, they'd probably wind up having to ban most Storm cards, which would produce far greater rage from the player base than simply not producing such a cycle.
A full Grove of the Burnwillows cycle wouldn't work if they all gave life, but what about having some other upside for the opponent?
RB, for example, could give an opponent's creature hexproof (negating burn and kill spells) while RU could let them pay life to counter the spell that the mana is used to cast. I'm making these up as I type, so I know they're not perfect, just examples.
What do you guys think would be acceptable upsides for each color pair?
I'd like to see a variation on the tribal lands from Lorwyn:
U/B Reveal Land
As U/B Reveal Land enters the battlefield, you may reveal a blue or black card from your hand. If you don't, U/B Reveal Land enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add U or B to your mana pool.
I think there might have been some cards in Shadowmoor/Eventide that used a similar mechanic. The lands seem really powerful, but the shared information would allow for more interesting games.
I throw my vote in for enemy manlands and fastlands. But you know a cycle I'd like to see that hasn't even been done yet? Cycling duals, like so:
WU Cycleland
Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Cycling 1(W/U)
A cycle like this would have served Shards well, I'd think. One problem with lands like these compared to the monocolor cyclelands from Urza's Saga and Onslaught is that you generally want to play your duals early in the game, ETB tapped or not, while lands with cycling generally encourage you to toss them for another card unless you absolutely need the mana. I suppose a second way they could do them would be similar to Cluestones:
WU Clueland
Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool. WU, , Sacrifice ~: Draw a card.
The benefit of this cycle is that it encourages you to actually play the land before tossing it for the card, and the ETBT helps balance it compared to the Cluestones. It helps that such a cycle would be easier to reprint since it doesn't use a distinct keyword.
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MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
alexanderkrizak asked: The Shadowmoor filter lands are the only one of Future Sight's dual lands to show up so far. Did the other four have issues, or have you just not found the right future for them yet?
But the real question is why MaRo post this Right Now?
No one post this question before?
Or they will reprint the filter cycle? Possible hint for FRF?
I understand how Grove, River, and Horizon might be a concern, I don't see how a Nimbus Maze cycle would be an issue. It would simply be a variation of the Glacial Fortress cycle.
But the real question is why MaRo post this Right Now?
No one post this question before?
It is not even the first time Maro talks about the Future Sight lands being reprinted in full cycles. He is simply answering a question he got that day, just one in dozens he does every day. Some are intentional hints, true, but those are not that common.
Probably it was asked more times before besides the ones he answered. The man simply can't even read all the asks he gets on that site.
I'm going to be the Contrarian and say I dont want any man lands in standard ever. Don't get me wrong I know why they are good but I hate how they make your decks be strictly worst for not having them. Enemy fastlands would be uber sweet though. I can get on board with that.
alexanderkrizak asked: The Shadowmoor filter lands are the only one of Future Sight's dual lands to show up so far. Did the other four have issues, or have you just not found the right future for them yet?
But the real question is why MaRo post this Right Now?
No one post this question before?
Or they will reprint the filter cycle? Possible hint for FRF?
This is sad... haha
I'd love to see Horizon Canopy and Grove of Burnwillows to become cycles.
Still, both are kinda degenerate.
Some "low land count" decks would pack 8-12 Horizon Canopy like lands, for example... even a monocolor deck could pack 8 of those.
they'd easily replace themselves and the general consistency of the deck would receive a big boost.
Grove of the Burnwillows, in the other side, is only that good because of Kavu Predator and Punishing Fire, but it's so good it's degenerate.
Eight or more of those in a deck with Kavu Predator is hella scary.
About the other two... their problem is that they're really underwhelming....
I really hope the return to Zendikar brings back landfall and the whole land matters theme. So what ten duals could they have there? I'm hoping for enemy manlands and allied Horizon Canopy cycle. Not too confident it'll happen like that, but a man can dream.
alexanderkrizak asked: The Shadowmoor filter lands are the only one of Future Sight's dual lands to show up so far. Did the other four have issues, or have you just not found the right future for them yet?
But the real question is why MaRo post this Right Now?
No one post this question before?
Or they will reprint the filter cycle? Possible hint for FRF?
What might those "issues" be?
I often find Mark Rosewater to be very annoying and cruel, at times; he dismissed the possibility of three-colored cards in Dragons of Tarkir, and now he says that only graven cairns is free of "issues" to have its own cycle? Why do the other employees at WotC tolerate him?
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“Those who would trade their freedoms for security will have neither.”-Benjamin Franklin
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
A River of Tears cycle wouldn't be 20 cards, it would be 4. All of them blue + X.
The whole idea of the card is that it fuels counterspells when it isn't your turn, and proactive spells when it is. There's a precedent for a 4 card dual land cycle too (Tainted PeakTainted Field cycle in Torment).
Edit: My vote was for enemy fastlands, for Modern's sake. Alternatives to fetch+shock manabases are a good thing.
Am i the only one that really liked murmuring bosk? It's fetchable, but slow unless specically built for. It punishes for reach colors, and would be hard to stay competitive past a certain count.
when i heard about the wedge config for this block, i thought we'd get em here.
Mana wise it's similar, but the card draw aspect is the problem.
Tell me, where is Gandalf? Cause I most desire to speak to him.
That being said, I would really like to see the cycle of enemy manlands come out. Those were just way too awesome not to love. And it would balance out our nonbasic land situation in block constructed.
How is that aspect a problem?
I do not understand that line; could you please explain it to me?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
Other than that, jut give me enemy fastlands.
My wife was on MTV with this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUutIZg2EpU
If that is true, how do you explain the fact that graven cairns was given its own cycle outside of the cycle in which it debuted? If that card could be given its own cycle, then I see no reason for which horizon canopy and nimbus maze could not be given their own cycles, as well.
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Canopy cycle is in a similar boat. Broken in some colors fine in others. In aggro canopy is insane. In control it's still pretty fine because it cantrips at least but the damage is eh. Painlands are not strictly worse because you can tap them for colorless to take nothing but with canopy you don't have a choice when tapping it for mana. The only similarities between the 2 is that you can take damage when tapping them and that they are dual lands.
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I can understand how the grove would be too powerful in certain colors, but what about the canopy? What is wrong with that in certain colors? Also, since graven cairns worked very nicely when expanded into its own cycle, would not the same be true for nimbus maze, as well?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
Horizon Canopy turned into a cycle is dangerous for things like Storm, if there was a red/blue version. A land that can be turned into a cantrip in a deck that doesn't need much mana to combo off makes those kind of decks incredibly more consistent. They also don't care about the damage penalty when they are working right. If they made a Horizon Canopy cycle, they'd probably wind up having to ban most Storm cards, which would produce far greater rage from the player base than simply not producing such a cycle.
RB, for example, could give an opponent's creature hexproof (negating burn and kill spells) while RU could let them pay life to counter the spell that the mana is used to cast. I'm making these up as I type, so I know they're not perfect, just examples.
What do you guys think would be acceptable upsides for each color pair?
Jungle Waterfall
Basic Land - Forest Island
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
You could fetch it with more things than the Ravnica shocks, but it's always slow.
Or homelands:
Diamond Peak
Land - Mountain Homeland
Other homelands you control are mountains.
U/B Reveal Land
As U/B Reveal Land enters the battlefield, you may reveal a blue or black card from your hand. If you don't, U/B Reveal Land enters the battlefield tapped.
T: Add U or B to your mana pool.
I think there might have been some cards in Shadowmoor/Eventide that used a similar mechanic. The lands seem really powerful, but the shared information would allow for more interesting games.
WU Cycleland
Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
Cycling 1(W/U)
A cycle like this would have served Shards well, I'd think. One problem with lands like these compared to the monocolor cyclelands from Urza's Saga and Onslaught is that you generally want to play your duals early in the game, ETB tapped or not, while lands with cycling generally encourage you to toss them for another card unless you absolutely need the mana. I suppose a second way they could do them would be similar to Cluestones:
WU Clueland
Land
~ enters the battlefield tapped.
: Add or to your mana pool.
WU, , Sacrifice ~: Draw a card.
The benefit of this cycle is that it encourages you to actually play the land before tossing it for the card, and the ETBT helps balance it compared to the Cluestones. It helps that such a cycle would be easier to reprint since it doesn't use a distinct keyword.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
It is not even the first time Maro talks about the Future Sight lands being reprinted in full cycles. He is simply answering a question he got that day, just one in dozens he does every day. Some are intentional hints, true, but those are not that common.
Probably it was asked more times before besides the ones he answered. The man simply can't even read all the asks he gets on that site.
This is sad... haha
I'd love to see Horizon Canopy and Grove of Burnwillows to become cycles.
Still, both are kinda degenerate.
Some "low land count" decks would pack 8-12 Horizon Canopy like lands, for example... even a monocolor deck could pack 8 of those.
they'd easily replace themselves and the general consistency of the deck would receive a big boost.
Grove of the Burnwillows, in the other side, is only that good because of Kavu Predator and Punishing Fire, but it's so good it's degenerate.
Eight or more of those in a deck with Kavu Predator is hella scary.
About the other two... their problem is that they're really underwhelming....
It's safe.... it's just not exciting.
simply print Glacial Fortress cycle instead and you'll be fine.
we don't need more underwhelming lands.
Still, if a Nimbus maze cycle got printed at uncommon, I'd be hyped.
What might those "issues" be?
I often find Mark Rosewater to be very annoying and cruel, at times; he dismissed the possibility of three-colored cards in Dragons of Tarkir, and now he says that only graven cairns is free of "issues" to have its own cycle? Why do the other employees at WotC tolerate him?
“When the people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.”-Thomas Jefferson
“A vote is like a rifle; its usefulness depends upon the character of its user.”-Theodore Roosevelt
“Patriotism means to stand by one's country; it does not mean to stand by one's president.”-Theodore Roosevelt
The whole idea of the card is that it fuels counterspells when it isn't your turn, and proactive spells when it is. There's a precedent for a 4 card dual land cycle too (Tainted Peak Tainted Field cycle in Torment).
Edit: My vote was for enemy fastlands, for Modern's sake. Alternatives to fetch+shock manabases are a good thing.
when i heard about the wedge config for this block, i thought we'd get em here.
Grammar is the difference between knowing your ****, and knowing you're ****.