With the spoiler for Thassa, everyone seems to be all yah Scry, Yah! and everyone is all it's soooo Flavourful there's "Oracle of Dephi!"
That's 1 iconic greek implementation of scry! total of 1 meaningful top down designs that'd be great to see.
Why does this warrant Scry being the 5th mechanism for assumable 2 (or 3)Sets worth of cards. Particularly since we had it as a returning mechanism only a few core sets ago in which I assume we saw a lot of the key design space for it.
I am totally hoping that they have just allowed Thassa to have a special one off use of scry for the whole set. Justified in that it is only appearing at mythic.
I believe that M10 set a precedent here with Flash appearing only on Borgardian Hellkite. (Yes I get that Flash is evergreen and that this was a reprint not a new card, but I think there is at least a level of similarity here)
Really though I just want to understand why scry is so popular (other then being a great mechanic)
That's why. Scry is one of those rare mechanics that gives every color a way to generate some card advantage. While the initial round of scry cards from mirrodin were pretty mono-spike (usually just being a variant on cantrips.) They expanded scrys apeal by adding them to cards that apeall towards Jonny (Riddle of Lightning) and Timmy (Cryptic Annelid.)
It's a nice mechanic that can go on a wide pallet of cards in terms of appeal. Cycling is similar in that regard.
Huh? Oracles and Seers have been in and out of the Greek/Roman/Mediterranean mythology all over the place. Just because the "Oracle of Delphi" was a well known one, does not mean she is the only one. I mean hey, even the Fates could be seen as scrying (or, I suppose fatesealing.)
And there is still design space to have new types of scry cards. I'm personally expecting the "Cancel upgrade" we are bound to get to have scry on it.
I believe that M10 set a precedent here with Flash appearing only on Borgardian Hellkite. (Yes I get that Flash is evergreen and that this was a reprint not a new card, but I think there is at least a level of similarity here))
The fact that Flash is evergreen makes a world of difference. I suppose they could either make Scry evergreen or else just have it not be keyworded on Thassa. Apart from that, I really can't see them bringing a mechanic back as a one-off for a single card.
Because Scry is an awesome mechanic. I think they really could make it everygreen. It's very similar to Cycling in that both are simple, useful mechanics that are great in any situation and can be tacked on to almost any card you can imagine. Anything that lets you smooth out your draws or see more of your deck, for a minimal cost, is amazing.
The flavor thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO. Basically people just really like Scry. So give them an excuse for why the flavor could work (and in this case it does) and they will run with it.
Because obviously you can only have one spell that represents something right? Look at the number of different burn spells in the history of magic that represent "shooting fire at someone". There are so many different ways that an idea can be represented in card form. Just because they've already made a card that represents a "wizard's familiar" or whatever, doesn't mean that there aren't twenty more different versions that can also be made.
Okay, I get it's appeal as a mechanism. I totally agree that scry would be better at evergreen. Which was sort of my point in that I feel that it's not strong enough to be the 5th pillar of a set.
Okay, I get it's appeal as a mechanism. I totally agree that scry would be better at evergreen. Which was sort of my point in that I feel that it's not strong enough to be the 5th pillar of a set.
Anyway thanks for the responses.
scry is not strong enough? oO
scry is an awesome mechanic. and i dont even care much about the mechanics in a set, or about how many of them are new. the only thing i care for is: Are they fun?
and scry is fun, so im happy that its back
I love scry. It's a non-creature based mechanic (the only one in this set, sigh) that forces you to take decision and not just smash with the biggest creature you have on the field.
To be fair, while we have only seen Devotion on creatures, it doesn't have to be a creature based mechanic at all. Just a permanent based one.
It also is easy and fun to incorporate into flavor. There are so many tropes that can be used with scrye, various forms of divination, many types of mystics and wizards that use divination magic and so many natural events that can be seen as omens, like eclipses, equinoxes and the like!
To stay on topic: I don't like scry being the returning mechanic. To me, scry is down there with Cycling and Echo as far as least flavorful mechanics goes. I'd much rathre the returning mechanic be battle cry or convoke.
Pray for Thunder :2mana::symr:
Instant
~ deals damage to target creature equal to your devotion to red.
You are quite fair, but I think more fair is possible.
well, since devotion counts mana symbols in the costs of permanents you control, it would have to be at least semi-permanent based. yes, you can have instants and sorceries that care about your devotion for a certain color, but those won't do a thing in a deck where the only permanents are lands.
and on another note, scry and cycling will never be upgraded to evengreen mechanics unless it's in the same way hybrid mana is technically an evergreen mechanic. and it is for precisely the same reason both are so popular, they do a fantastic job at upping deck consistency and smoothing draws. i'm not saying this is always a bad thing, just that it is in too high a concentration.
To stay on topic: I don't like scry being the returning mechanic. To me, scry is down there with Cycling and Echo as far as least flavorful mechanics goes. I'd much rathre the returning mechanic be battle cry or convoke.
"Scry X" vs "draw X" is card quality vs card quantity. Of course, if you draw say 7 cards compared to getting just 1 card out of 7, there is a greater chance of getting more than 1 good card. This is compared to most cards that scry 1 or 2 vs drawing just 1 card. I'd rather take scry in the latter situation because you will greatly increase the power of that next drawn card being something you need/want vs purely at random.
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-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
It also is easy and fun to incorporate into flavor. There are so many tropes that can be used with scrye, various forms of divination, many types of mystics and wizards that use divination magic and so many natural events that can be seen as omens, like eclipses, equinoxes and the like!
Sure but implementation on cards seems to be either
scry, draw in various size,
scry once a turn,
some other unrelated thing + tacked on scry.
For instance take Magma Jet, where's the flavour or the reason that a blast of hot magma let's you see the future?
and it's not that I don't get why it's a good thing, you can basically added to any card for all upside.
And I think I was misunderstood when I used "Strong" I meant strong design wise not game power, I just don't think there is as much that you can do with scry.
I agree that a spell based mechanism is what is needed for the 5th mechanism not a combat trick or make creatures bigger / better and I will accept that scry is okay enough since it seems like that is what we've got.
Sure but implementation on cards seems to be either
scry, draw in various size,
scry once a turn,
some other unrelated thing + tacked on scry.
For instance take Magma Jet, where's the flavour or the reason that a blast of hot magma let's you see the future?
and it's not that I don't get why it's a good thing, you can basically added to any card for all upside.
And I think I was misunderstood when I used "Strong" I meant strong design wise not game power, I just don't think there is as much that you can do with scry.
I agree that a spell based mechanism is what is needed for the 5th mechanism not a combat trick or make creatures bigger / better and I will accept that scry is okay enough since it seems like that is what we've got.
You're seeing things in fire? Like in coffee dregs? Like in animal viscera? That's the flavour lol Fire speaks to you!
Scry isn't a very interesting mechanic on its own unless paired with top-down designs (e.g. Oracle of Delphi) but it is at least very powerful when costed aggressively. Then again, it takes something that cares about the top card (like Delver or Miracle) to really make it compelling from a gameplay standpoint. Anything less just doesn't really show off the mechanic to make it feel like more than just a free tag along affect.
There's probably enough design space left in Scry to squeeze out another set or two, but that'll probably be the last we see of it for a while. Not my first choice for a returning mechanic, but it fits the top-down flavor well enough to be justified.
The good news is it enables a few solid reprints that are needed for Modern and maybe this means there's a chance Preordain could be unbanned in Modern at the Theros B&R update, but that's neither here nor there.
That's 1 iconic greek implementation of scry! total of 1 meaningful top down designs that'd be great to see.
Why does this warrant Scry being the 5th mechanism for assumable 2 (or 3)Sets worth of cards. Particularly since we had it as a returning mechanism only a few core sets ago in which I assume we saw a lot of the key design space for it.
I am totally hoping that they have just allowed Thassa to have a special one off use of scry for the whole set. Justified in that it is only appearing at mythic.
I believe that M10 set a precedent here with Flash appearing only on Borgardian Hellkite. (Yes I get that Flash is evergreen and that this was a reprint not a new card, but I think there is at least a level of similarity here)
Really though I just want to understand why scry is so popular (other then being a great mechanic)
That's why. Scry is one of those rare mechanics that gives every color a way to generate some card advantage. While the initial round of scry cards from mirrodin were pretty mono-spike (usually just being a variant on cantrips.) They expanded scrys apeal by adding them to cards that apeall towards Jonny (Riddle of Lightning) and Timmy (Cryptic Annelid.)
It's a nice mechanic that can go on a wide pallet of cards in terms of appeal. Cycling is similar in that regard.
or is it just about reprinting Preordain, Foresee and Augury Owl and a bigger Crystal Ball?
And there is still design space to have new types of scry cards. I'm personally expecting the "Cancel upgrade" we are bound to get to have scry on it.
So something like
<Name> 1UU
Instant
Counter target spell.
Scry 2.
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#DefundThePolice
Seer that uses a creatures entrails. Check Viscera Seer
Message from the Gods. Check Augury Owl
Divinve inspiration. Check Preordain and Foresee Check.
Even Tapion's Scying counter spell as been done in Condescend
I guess I'm just a little bit underwhelmed with the mechanics we've seen so far and feel like there's something missing.
The fact that Flash is evergreen makes a world of difference. I suppose they could either make Scry evergreen or else just have it not be keyworded on Thassa. Apart from that, I really can't see them bringing a mechanic back as a one-off for a single card.
A grand total of 14 cards have been spoiled so far, and you're underwhelmed?
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#DefundThePolice
The flavor thing is a bit of a red herring IMHO. Basically people just really like Scry. So give them an excuse for why the flavor could work (and in this case it does) and they will run with it.
Because obviously you can only have one spell that represents something right? Look at the number of different burn spells in the history of magic that represent "shooting fire at someone". There are so many different ways that an idea can be represented in card form. Just because they've already made a card that represents a "wizard's familiar" or whatever, doesn't mean that there aren't twenty more different versions that can also be made.
Anyway thanks for the responses.
scry is not strong enough? oO
scry is an awesome mechanic. and i dont even care much about the mechanics in a set, or about how many of them are new. the only thing i care for is: Are they fun?
and scry is fun, so im happy that its back
To be fair, while we have only seen Devotion on creatures, it doesn't have to be a creature based mechanic at all. Just a permanent based one.
It needs to be permanent based?
Instant
~ deals damage to target creature equal to your devotion to red.
Finally a good white villain quote: "So, do I ever re-evaluate my life choices? Never, because I know what I'm doing is a righteous cause."
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Oh come on:
Instant
~ deals damage to target creature equal to your devotion to red.
Much more skreddy :>
[Clan Flamingo]
Scrying isn't card advantage. It's card selection.
To stay on topic: I don't like scry being the returning mechanic. To me, scry is down there with Cycling and Echo as far as least flavorful mechanics goes. I'd much rathre the returning mechanic be battle cry or convoke.
well, since devotion counts mana symbols in the costs of permanents you control, it would have to be at least semi-permanent based. yes, you can have instants and sorceries that care about your devotion for a certain color, but those won't do a thing in a deck where the only permanents are lands.
and on another note, scry and cycling will never be upgraded to evengreen mechanics unless it's in the same way hybrid mana is technically an evergreen mechanic. and it is for precisely the same reason both are so popular, they do a fantastic job at upping deck consistency and smoothing draws. i'm not saying this is always a bad thing, just that it is in too high a concentration.
-- Duncan McGregor, DCI L3 Judge, while playing his "judgebreaker" deck in an IRL EDH game
Sure but implementation on cards seems to be either
scry, draw in various size,
scry once a turn,
some other unrelated thing + tacked on scry.
For instance take Magma Jet, where's the flavour or the reason that a blast of hot magma let's you see the future?
and it's not that I don't get why it's a good thing, you can basically added to any card for all upside.
And I think I was misunderstood when I used "Strong" I meant strong design wise not game power, I just don't think there is as much that you can do with scry.
I agree that a spell based mechanism is what is needed for the 5th mechanism not a combat trick or make creatures bigger / better and I will accept that scry is okay enough since it seems like that is what we've got.
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You're seeing things in fire? Like in coffee dregs? Like in animal viscera? That's the flavour lol Fire speaks to you!
There's probably enough design space left in Scry to squeeze out another set or two, but that'll probably be the last we see of it for a while. Not my first choice for a returning mechanic, but it fits the top-down flavor well enough to be justified.
The good news is it enables a few solid reprints that are needed for Modern and maybe this means there's a chance Preordain could be unbanned in Modern at the Theros B&R update, but that's neither here nor there.
Speculate less. Test more.