Of the unconfirmed characters, I really hope that none of Narset, Tamiyo, Saheeli, and Huatli die. They all have too many more stories to tell (and we really need to have Huatli meet Tamiyo's story circle). I wouldn't want to see Kasmina die either, since she's a new character and could be another blue planeswalker to share Jace's spot. Vivien is kind of in the same boat, and I like her better than Nissa mechanically (though from a characterization standpoint, I like Nissa better). I'd like to see Dovin get his butt kicked but not fatally to allow him to learn a lesson (see: the main character in the Azorius guild story), ditto Sorin and Nahiri (and Nahiri still needs to get a card in a Zendikar set). Davriel is too new to die, and he could be another black planeswalker for M20 and other sets. I certainly wish Nicol Bolas would die, but it probably won't happen. I hope Ugin lives, especially if Bolas does. Teferi has barely been in the Gatewatch yet, so he should live. Kiora could use some character development (though I wouldn't say no to another GU planeswalker). And Angrath has only been around for a year and a half, hasn't gotten a chance to cool down, and hasn't gotten a card or set on his own plane, so it wouldn't be fair to kill him off. Gideon will probably die, especially since we have Teyo to replace him, but I think is an okay character and hope he at least makes it to Theros and gets a card there (I like the idea of him becoming the new white god). Liliana should either redeem herself and become a decent person or die, but she's too popular to kill off. Domri is expendable; he's yet another human RG planeswalker, he doesn't have any special abilities that other characters don't, and he pretty much wants to just destroy everything, so he could easily die in battle.
Of the unconfirmed characters, I really hope that none of Narset, Tamiyo, Saheeli, and Huatli die. They all have too many more stories to tell (and we really need to have Huatli meet Tamiyo's story circle). I wouldn't want to see Kasmina die either, since she's a new character and could be another blue planeswalker to share Jace's spot. Vivien is kind of in the same boat, and I like her better than Nissa mechanically (though from a characterization standpoint, I like Nissa better). I'd like to see Dovin get his butt kicked but not fatally to allow him to learn a lesson (see: the main character in the Azorius guild story), ditto Sorin and Nahiri (and Nahiri still needs to get a card in a Zendikar set). Davriel is too new to die, and he could be another black planeswalker for M20 and other sets. I certainly wish Nicol Bolas would die, but it probably won't happen. I hope Ugin lives, especially if Bolas does. Teferi has barely been in the Gatewatch yet, so he should live. Kiora could use some character development (though I wouldn't say no to another GU planeswalker). And Angrath has only been around for a year and a half, hasn't gotten a chance to cool down, and hasn't gotten a card or set on his own plane, so it wouldn't be fair to kill him off. Gideon will probably die, especially since we have Teyo to replace him, but I think is an okay character and hope he at least makes it to Theros and gets a card there (I like the idea of him becoming the new white god). Liliana should either redeem herself and become a decent person or die, but she's too popular to kill off. Domri is expendable; he's yet another human RG planeswalker, he doesn't have any special abilities that other characters don't, and he pretty much wants to just destroy everything, so he could easily die in battle.
Well, we know that Lily lives, as she is in the next book set after War of the Spark. Same with Chandra, Ajani, Jace, Vraska, and Tibalt. Of the Gatewatch, Gideon is the only one who is expendable, and he now wields the Blackblade, a weapon that eats sparks and souls, and he was told in Amonkhet that he would die facing a God, just not on Amonkhet. And well, there are seven entities in WAR that are godlike if not outright gods, and that is not counting the possibility that RAKDOS or Maat'Selesnya shows up. The odds are quite frankly stacked against him, particularly considering that Chandra in in mourning at the start of her comic, which takes place *after* WAR.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
We are aware of the novel leak and we are actively deleting posts. We have contacted Wizards of the Coast about these posts as they represent inappropriate and possibly illegal actions by the original poster. Discussion of leaked material from the novel will be deleted and the users infracted
We are aware of the novel leak and we are actively deleting posts. We have contacted Wizards of the Coast about these posts as they represent inappropriate and possibly illegal actions by the original poster. Discussion of leaked material from the novel will be deleted and the users infracted
This is now the official Book Spoiler discussion thread, yes?
So we know according to the book that:
Gideon dies.
Domri dies.
Dack dies. (Apparently Dack even gets some time to shine before he goes.)
Ugin sacrifices himself, but does not actually die. (This will still probably wreak havoc on Tarkir, calling it now. Bye bye, dragons.)
However, since the book can't possibly cover all 36 carded Planeswalkers, those are the only "confirmed" losses we have at this point. We do know that there will be online fiction for War of the Spark as well, written by the same author as the novel. Mark Rosewater said that story fans will want to read both the novel and the online fiction to get the full story.
So whether more named characters will die in the online stories remains to be seen.
This is now the official Book Spoiler discussion thread, yes?
So we know according to the book that:
Gideon dies.
Domri dies.
Dack dies. (Apparently Dack even gets some time to shine before he goes.)
Ugin sacrifices himself, but does not actually die. (This will still probably wreak havoc on Tarkir, calling it now. Bye bye, dragons.)
However, since the book can't possibly cover all 36 carded Planeswalkers, those are the only "confirmed" losses we have at this point. We do know that there will be online fiction for War of the Spark as well, written by the same author as the novel. Mark Rosewater said that story fans will want to read both the novel and the online fiction to get the full story.
So whether more named characters will die in the online stories remains to be seen.
I have a feeling that before leaving Tarkir, Ugin makes it so they can breed so that when the dragontempest ends, they won't die off like last time. I can also see Sarkhan becoming something of a "dragon shepherd" to ensure the clans don't wipe out the dragons again. Their numbers will dwindle, but I doubt they will die off, particularly considering that they have five elders now.
How did the almighty, all knowing Nicol Bolas who then successfully casts the Elder Spell and becomes a DRAGON GOD, fall so easily and foolishly is beyond reason....unless you have Gatewatch
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
How did the almighty, all knowing Nicol Bolas who then successfully casts the Elder Spell and becomes a DRAGON GOD, fall so easily and foolishly is beyond reason....unless you have Gatewatch
Because, ultimately he suffers from the same thing all dragons suffer from: Arrogance and Narcissism. He did not plan on Lily turning on him, nor was he aware that Ugin was still alive.
Secondly, he relied on a modified version of a trick that had already been tried once before, and failed back then as well.
Thirdly, he didn't count on Niv-Mizzet having a plan that relied on Bolas killing him to gain a massive power boost. Niv-Mizzet is just as old as Bolas, and smarter as well. Had Niv-Mizzet been a planeswalker, he would have been Bolas's equal in power.
Bolas also relied on the guilds being fractured due to his meddling, not realizing that invading their plane would cause the guilds to put aside their differences and start to work together.
By invading Ravnica, Bolas achieved what Azor tried to do, getting the guilds to work together.
And finally, Bolas failed, because it was the foregone conclusion. Had he not, the game would have been over.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
How did the almighty, all knowing Nicol Bolas who then successfully casts the Elder Spell and becomes a DRAGON GOD, fall so easily and foolishly is beyond reason....unless you have Gatewatch
Because, ultimately he suffers from the same thing all dragons suffer from: Arrogance and Narcissism. He did not plan on Lily turning on him, nor was he aware that Ugin was still alive.
Secondly, he relied on a modified version of a trick that had already been tried once before, and failed back then as well.
Thirdly, he didn't count on Niv-Mizzet having a plan that relied on Bolas killing him to gain a massive power boost. Niv-Mizzet is just as old as Bolas, and smarter as well. Had Niv-Mizzet been a planeswalker, he would have been Bolas's equal in power.
Bolas also relied on the guilds being fractured due to his meddling, not realizing that invading their plane would cause the guilds to put aside their differences and start to work together.
By invading Ravnica, Bolas achieved what Azor tried to do, getting the guilds to work together.
And finally, Bolas failed, because it was the foregone conclusion. Had he not, the game would have been over.
Yes I understand all that, but still........the guilds and ravnica really have nothing to do with his plan of becoming a Dragon God, just a ruse that worked exactly as he wanted (luring the planeswalkers). Lily turning the eternals didnt really matter either since by then he had already completed the spell. He should have just walked or flew up into the sky to avoid the "dangers" that led to his downfall. Its very silly honestly.
I only say this because the card in the set indicates that he completed the spell and attained god hood. Maybe that doesnt happen in the book.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Been a member here for over a dozen years. Playing since '95 just got lost in the twitch shuffle.
How did the almighty, all knowing Nicol Bolas who then successfully casts the Elder Spell and becomes a DRAGON GOD, fall so easily and foolishly is beyond reason....unless you have Gatewatch
Because, ultimately he suffers from the same thing all dragons suffer from: Arrogance and Narcissism. He did not plan on Lily turning on him, nor was he aware that Ugin was still alive.
Secondly, he relied on a modified version of a trick that had already been tried once before, and failed back then as well.
Thirdly, he didn't count on Niv-Mizzet having a plan that relied on Bolas killing him to gain a massive power boost. Niv-Mizzet is just as old as Bolas, and smarter as well. Had Niv-Mizzet been a planeswalker, he would have been Bolas's equal in power.
Bolas also relied on the guilds being fractured due to his meddling, not realizing that invading their plane would cause the guilds to put aside their differences and start to work together.
By invading Ravnica, Bolas achieved what Azor tried to do, getting the guilds to work together.
And finally, Bolas failed, because it was the foregone conclusion. Had he not, the game would have been over.
Yes I understand all that, but still........the guilds and ravnica really have nothing to do with his plan of becoming a Dragon God, just a ruse that worked exactly as he wanted (luring the planeswalkers). Lily turning the eternals didnt really matter either since by then he had already completed the spell. He should have just walked or flew up into the sky to avoid the "dangers" that led to his downfall. Its very silly honestly.
I only say this because the card in the set indicates that he completed the spell and attained god hood. Maybe that doesnt happen in the book.
He couldn't leave Ravnica for the same reason the other planeswalkers were stuck there, the Immortal Sun. Also, again Arrogance and Narcissism. He was convinced he was infallible and undefeatable, and that always leads to making stupid mistakes. It was the same reason that when he was an oldwalker, he just stood there when Umezawa summoned a giant meteor to stike him with, he could easily have removed himself or planeswalked away, but he didn't, because his arrogance and narcissism would not allow him to believe he could be defeated by a "mere" mortal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
From what we know his plan was working perfectly. He lost some ground after a surprise arrival but gained it back with the god eternals arrival. He just made some minor miscalculations which can happen to any evil genius. The biggest I think was granting the eternals the ability to harvest sparks so easily and extending it to the eternalized gods. He kept a tight leash on the gods for the most part but it seems like when he let his guard down it gave the resistance an opening. I don't think any old eternal would have posed a threat to him but two eternalized gods who had been given some aspect of their original minds back are obviously a major challenge.
I also think they caught him at the point of his ascension when he was vulnerable. It's in character to me that he would think he had won at that point and not be worrying about the insects he could squash after he attains godhood.
From what we know his plan was working perfectly. He lost some ground after a surprise arrival but gained it back with the god eternals arrival. He just made some minor miscalculations which can happen to any evil genius. The biggest I think was granting the eternals the ability to harvest sparks so easily and extending it to the eternalized gods. He kept a tight leash on the gods for the most part but it seems like when he let his guard down it gave the resistance an opening. I don't think any old eternal would have posed a threat to him but two eternalized gods who had been given some aspect of their original minds back are obviously a major challenge.
I also think they caught him at the point of his ascension when he was vulnerable. It's in character to me that he would think he had won at that point and not be worrying about the insects he could squash after he attains godhood.
The eternals harvest on touch, *all* eternals were a threat to him, which is how he was defeated. It just happened to be Bontu that did it, but any eternal would have worked.
Due to Amonkhet he knew that the gatewatch was gunning for him, which is why he had Lily's contract default to him and he gave them false hope that the blackblade would work on him. But to be honest, the blackblade had killed two other elder dragons, of course Bolas would have found a way to turn it into a no issue for him.
Bolas's biggest weakness has always been his arrogance and narcissism, he can't conceive that a "lesser being" than him could ever be a threat to him, which causes him to underestimate them time and time again.
The Elder Spell didn't work for the last planeswalker that tried it, so thinking it would work for him is a study in arrogance and narcissism.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
[quote from="Couver »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/the-rumor-mill/speculation/807930-leak-book-spoiler-discussion-ok-yeah-cool-cards?comment=74"]
The Elder Spell didn't work for the last planeswalker that tried it, so thinking it would work for him is a study in arrogance and narcissism.
Is this in the book? I haven’t seen anything about the Elder Spell accept it gives you sparks somehow
That's the most disappointing part of this to me also. Creative didn't really use Ugin for all that much. This also greatly reduces the chances we will get a legendary creature version of a pre-sparked Ugin, since he's effectively being removed from the plot forever.
Yeah this would be disappointing but I'm hoping they still give him a card. It seems like a waste after all the build up in the M19 story.
Not at all! This is the payoff to all that buildup. Their destinies are entwined, and now Ugin has manipulated events and sacrificed himself to finally vanquish Bolas once and for all. How's that not "all that much"? That's huge, and indeed it's everything.
MVP title in this finale absolutely goes to Ugin. In the end, Liliana, Gideon, and the rest of the heroes turned out to be chess pieces in his game. Bolas, like the audience, mistook those game pieces for the actual players -- but Bolas true opponent on Ravnica turned out to be Ugin all along. Bolas could not have won because he didn't understand what game he was actually playing, and on what game board, until it was too late. That's Sun Tzu 101: Know yourself, and know your enemy. Bolas did not know his true enemy. He was gloating over Gideon even as Ugin moved to checkmate him.
I too would like to see more of Ugin, but this is really everything the story requires of him. This is his role, his destiny, his long journey fulfilled. I find it immensely satisfying. What could he possibly do, what ending could he have, that's greater or more significant than this?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"I'd rather die speaking the truth than live a lie." --Gix, to Yawgmoth (pre-Phyrexia)
Is this in the book? I haven’t seen anything about the Elder Spell accept it gives you sparks somehow
Go to the MTGSalvation wiki and look up the Mox Beacon and the story around it, it's an obscure part of MTG lore, but I am glad that WotC made it canon again with Bolas's plan.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
That's the most disappointing part of this to me also. Creative didn't really use Ugin for all that much. This also greatly reduces the chances we will get a legendary creature version of a pre-sparked Ugin, since he's effectively being removed from the plot forever.
Yeah this would be disappointing but I'm hoping they still give him a card. It seems like a waste after all the build up in the M19 story.
Not at all! This is the payoff to all that buildup. Their destinies are entwined, and now Ugin has manipulated events and sacrificed himself to finally vanquish Bolas once and for all. How's that not "all that much"? That's huge, and indeed it's everything.
MVP title in this finale absolutely goes to Ugin. In the end, Liliana, Gideon, and the rest of the heroes turned out to be chess pieces in his game. Bolas, like the audience, mistook those game pieces for the actual players -- but Bolas true opponent on Ravnica turned out to be Ugin all along. Bolas could not have won because he didn't understand what game he was actually playing, and on what game board, until it was too late. That's Sun Tzu 101: Know yourself, and know your enemy. Bolas did not know his true enemy. He was gloating over Gideon even as Ugin moved to checkmate him.
I too would like to see more of Ugin, but this is really everything the story requires of him. This is his role, his destiny, his long journey fulfilled. I find it immensely satisfying. What could he possibly do, what ending could he have, that's greater or more significant than this?
I agree storywise it has a nice symmetry. That they both 'end' together as they were born together and finally join their actual dead siblings in obscurity. It reminds me of this great Tolkein quote. The elder dragons are finally done. But selfishly Ugin is one of my favorite MTG characters so I would like a playable commander card for him. And I always wondered if he was always colourless or if he had a colour identity that he lost upon death and resurrection.
So comes snow after fire, and even dragons have their endings.
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/184091476248/about-chandra
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Well, we know that Lily lives, as she is in the next book set after War of the Spark. Same with Chandra, Ajani, Jace, Vraska, and Tibalt. Of the Gatewatch, Gideon is the only one who is expendable, and he now wields the Blackblade, a weapon that eats sparks and souls, and he was told in Amonkhet that he would die facing a God, just not on Amonkhet. And well, there are seven entities in WAR that are godlike if not outright gods, and that is not counting the possibility that RAKDOS or Maat'Selesnya shows up. The odds are quite frankly stacked against him, particularly considering that Chandra in in mourning at the start of her comic, which takes place *after* WAR.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Look At the ultimate...
RIP
With The Immortal Sun on Ravnica? Not likely, well, down right impossible actually.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
no problem amigo
So we know according to the book that:
Gideon dies.
Domri dies.
Dack dies. (Apparently Dack even gets some time to shine before he goes.)
Ugin sacrifices himself, but does not actually die. (This will still probably wreak havoc on Tarkir, calling it now. Bye bye, dragons.)
However, since the book can't possibly cover all 36 carded Planeswalkers, those are the only "confirmed" losses we have at this point. We do know that there will be online fiction for War of the Spark as well, written by the same author as the novel. Mark Rosewater said that story fans will want to read both the novel and the online fiction to get the full story.
So whether more named characters will die in the online stories remains to be seen.
I am wondering if the number of sparks flying towards bolas in that image can still be used as evidence that more people die.
I have a feeling that before leaving Tarkir, Ugin makes it so they can breed so that when the dragontempest ends, they won't die off like last time. I can also see Sarkhan becoming something of a "dragon shepherd" to ensure the clans don't wipe out the dragons again. Their numbers will dwindle, but I doubt they will die off, particularly considering that they have five elders now.
It was confirmed that there were many more planeswalkers on Ravnica than those shown on the cards, most of the dead ones are unnamed.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I think Wizards let her live only to troll us
Let this great clan rest in peace (2001-2011)
I am very glad that they did, because she is the undisputed queen of Snark in MTG. Although, Kasmina shows promise.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Because, ultimately he suffers from the same thing all dragons suffer from: Arrogance and Narcissism. He did not plan on Lily turning on him, nor was he aware that Ugin was still alive.
Secondly, he relied on a modified version of a trick that had already been tried once before, and failed back then as well.
Thirdly, he didn't count on Niv-Mizzet having a plan that relied on Bolas killing him to gain a massive power boost. Niv-Mizzet is just as old as Bolas, and smarter as well. Had Niv-Mizzet been a planeswalker, he would have been Bolas's equal in power.
Bolas also relied on the guilds being fractured due to his meddling, not realizing that invading their plane would cause the guilds to put aside their differences and start to work together.
By invading Ravnica, Bolas achieved what Azor tried to do, getting the guilds to work together.
And finally, Bolas failed, because it was the foregone conclusion. Had he not, the game would have been over.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Yes I understand all that, but still........the guilds and ravnica really have nothing to do with his plan of becoming a Dragon God, just a ruse that worked exactly as he wanted (luring the planeswalkers). Lily turning the eternals didnt really matter either since by then he had already completed the spell. He should have just walked or flew up into the sky to avoid the "dangers" that led to his downfall. Its very silly honestly.
I only say this because the card in the set indicates that he completed the spell and attained god hood. Maybe that doesnt happen in the book.
He couldn't leave Ravnica for the same reason the other planeswalkers were stuck there, the Immortal Sun. Also, again Arrogance and Narcissism. He was convinced he was infallible and undefeatable, and that always leads to making stupid mistakes. It was the same reason that when he was an oldwalker, he just stood there when Umezawa summoned a giant meteor to stike him with, he could easily have removed himself or planeswalked away, but he didn't, because his arrogance and narcissism would not allow him to believe he could be defeated by a "mere" mortal.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I also think they caught him at the point of his ascension when he was vulnerable. It's in character to me that he would think he had won at that point and not be worrying about the insects he could squash after he attains godhood.
The eternals harvest on touch, *all* eternals were a threat to him, which is how he was defeated. It just happened to be Bontu that did it, but any eternal would have worked.
Due to Amonkhet he knew that the gatewatch was gunning for him, which is why he had Lily's contract default to him and he gave them false hope that the blackblade would work on him. But to be honest, the blackblade had killed two other elder dragons, of course Bolas would have found a way to turn it into a no issue for him.
Bolas's biggest weakness has always been his arrogance and narcissism, he can't conceive that a "lesser being" than him could ever be a threat to him, which causes him to underestimate them time and time again.
The Elder Spell didn't work for the last planeswalker that tried it, so thinking it would work for him is a study in arrogance and narcissism.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Is this in the book? I haven’t seen anything about the Elder Spell accept it gives you sparks somehow
Dack helps out but overwhelming doesn’t make
Domri came to realization about bolas to late
Gideon sacrifices himself to save Liliana which caused a Domino reaction to save Ravnica and finally once and for all defeat Nicol Bolas
Not at all! This is the payoff to all that buildup. Their destinies are entwined, and now Ugin has manipulated events and sacrificed himself to finally vanquish Bolas once and for all. How's that not "all that much"? That's huge, and indeed it's everything.
MVP title in this finale absolutely goes to Ugin. In the end, Liliana, Gideon, and the rest of the heroes turned out to be chess pieces in his game. Bolas, like the audience, mistook those game pieces for the actual players -- but Bolas true opponent on Ravnica turned out to be Ugin all along. Bolas could not have won because he didn't understand what game he was actually playing, and on what game board, until it was too late. That's Sun Tzu 101: Know yourself, and know your enemy. Bolas did not know his true enemy. He was gloating over Gideon even as Ugin moved to checkmate him.
I too would like to see more of Ugin, but this is really everything the story requires of him. This is his role, his destiny, his long journey fulfilled. I find it immensely satisfying. What could he possibly do, what ending could he have, that's greater or more significant than this?
Go to the MTGSalvation wiki and look up the Mox Beacon and the story around it, it's an obscure part of MTG lore, but I am glad that WotC made it canon again with Bolas's plan.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
I agree storywise it has a nice symmetry. That they both 'end' together as they were born together and finally join their actual dead siblings in obscurity. It reminds me of this great Tolkein quote. The elder dragons are finally done. But selfishly Ugin is one of my favorite MTG characters so I would like a playable commander card for him. And I always wondered if he was always colourless or if he had a colour identity that he lost upon death and resurrection.