They won't do a real Urza walker, because they would be afraid they wouldn't get it right and they don't want to mess with something so iconic. Urza wasn't as powerful as Bolas because he was an artificer, that being said, everything he made with his spark was pretty powerful. I mean, the Weatherlight, Karn, the titans, etc. Pre-mending walkers were capable of some pretty ridiculous feats, even if it it didn't seem that way. There was a reason the mending was implemented so they wouldn't have to delve too deeply into the exact nature of their powers.
Granted I hope they bring the power this time. Last time only Teferi rose up to the top so they only need to make two powerhouses to beat that. Just don't make a crap walker like Jaya so they should definitely push Urza and Serra if they do it.
Freyalise has done pretty well for herself too, honestly. Turns out a planeswalker that's a disenchant on a stick that makes mana dorks and draws cards is decent for green.
2 of those color combinations are straight out of C17, and I would straight-up murder anyone that decides to make Yet Another Goddamn WU Flicker Commander, so while I enjoy the nostalgia, I would have to say "no thanks".
The WUBRG is only suggested because of Urza, though Taysir seems to have some popularity around here as well, and I think Bolas fans could handle a second UBR deck if it meant their favorite Elder Dragon finally got to lead a deck with a decent card. They could include Tezzeret the Schemer, Sarkhan the Mad, and Ral Zarek to represent Bolas' current or former minions.
And what, are they not supposed to make another WU flicker legend, ever? It's just looking for something that suits Azor, and it plays well with many of the Detain creatures from RTR, not to mention in the example I provided would also compliment Serra's Angel theme well with Angels using ETB abilities. Azor, the Lawbringer had abilities based on detain and Sphinx's Revelation, so I'd expect his CPW abilities to be similar. I previously suggested Azor appear in Crucius' deck as a subcom to headline a Sphinx subtheme, in addition to artifacts and control.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
Urza being a very powerful oldwalker is part of what people expect of the character.
Urza isn't superman, he wasn't even particularly powerful as an oldwalker, It is not WOTC's fault that people get dumb ideas about Urza's power level.
Plus, what you describe could just easily be Tezzeret.
You mean the Blue-centric artifact Planeswalker would have the same effects as the OTHER Blue-Centric Artifact Planeswalker? Urza wasn't a five color superman anymore than Freyalize, Ob Nix, Nahiri, Or Teferi were, infact he was less than the first two in some ways because Ob and Freya actually used their planeswalker powers. Urza was even after 3 thousand years of being a Planeswalker was an Artificier first and no amount of internet BS from the fandom will change that. Like it or not.
WotC doesn't really gives a damn about what Urza is, they care about delivering what Urza's fans want. WotC is still a business, so saying "well screw what people think, we're going to make Urza lore accurate despite going on the face of what people expect of him" isn't exactly a good idea, and MaRo already stated multiple times that Urza would probably be five-color (and Urza from Unstable confirms it), so making Urza anything less than that is just not delivering expectations.
And Urza being the head of an Artificer Deck is in no way more justified than Tezzeret, other than that it fulfills your nostalgic desires. The point is, if you're going to make Urza just a new Tezzeret, why make it Urza? There's a name for nostalgia just for the sake of it - it's called pandering, and demanding to be pandered to is just selfish and childish.
The WUBRG is only suggested because of Urza, though Taysir seems to have some popularity around here as well, and I think Bolas fans could handle a second UBR deck if it meant their favorite Elder Dragon finally got to lead a deck with a decent card. They could include Tezzeret the Schemer, Sarkhan the Mad, and Ral Zarek to represent Bolas' current or former minions.
And what, are they not supposed to make another WU flicker legend, ever? It's just looking for something that suits Azor, and it plays well with many of the Detain creatures from RTR, not to mention in the example I provided would also compliment Serra's Angel theme well with Angels using ETB abilities. Azor, the Lawbringer had abilities based on detain and Sphinx's Revelation, so I'd expect his CPW abilities to be similar. I previously suggested Azor appear in Crucius' deck as a subcom to headline a Sphinx subtheme, in addition to artifacts and control.
I could see one of the decks being a repeat from C17, but not both. It's simply a fact that different people enjoy some color combinations more than others, reason why color representation is important. So if a friend of mine enjoys, say, UG, which hasn't gotten a deck since 2015's Ezuri, should he just suck it up and buy WUBRG to get his favorite colors while I get another Grixis Commander?
And stop putting words on my mouth. "Never" is too long, but after Roon and Brago, plus Venser filling the "flicker Planeswalker" slot, is there even a real need for another Flicker Commander? Your only justification for it seems to be "it's something Azor would do", which only solidifies the point that maybe Azor shouldn't get a PW Commander at all. So, once again, just like Urza, give me a good reason why Azor should get a PW in the first place that it's not "but it would be cool and nostalgic".
I could see one of the decks being a repeat from C17, but not both. It's simply a fact that different people enjoy some color combinations more than others, reason why color representation is important. So if a friend of mine enjoys, say, UG, which hasn't gotten a deck since 2015's Ezuri, should he just suck it up and buy WUBRG to get his favorite colors while I get another Grixis Commander?
First of all, I ventured the idea of green getting more representation than what I have suggested thus far. If a GU planeswalker, say Kiora, were to get a CPW in C18, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm well aware that last year makes certain color combinations less likely which I spelled out in one of my previous posts:
Since we're likely to get at least one cycle of Commander PWs, I'm thinking they can choose PWs that have served in some manner of leadership position, like Urza, Serra, Crucius, Azor, and of course Nicol Bolas. I would love an additional cycle of PW subcommanders that fit in to the deck's main color identity.
Justice From Above WU Azor, Grand Arbiter (Flicker/bounce) W Serra, Mother of Light (Angels)
Plot For Power UBR Nicol Bolas, Draconic Overlord (Discard) BR Ob Nixilis the Infernal (Demons)
I would add Sorin to this list as well, with an ultimate that creates an Avacyn token, but we've already gotten three PW cards for him, while we have yet to get PW cards for Serra, Azor, or Crucius, not to mention we just got a Vampire deck last year. I know fans would love to see a Bolas Commander PW, though coming off the heels of C17's UBR Wizard deck hurts those chances a bit.Ob Nixilis has gotten a CPW before, but Maro feels his personality is BR more than monoblack, and he'd be the obvious candidate for a Demon subtheme in a Grixis control deck. A couple green CPWs for the fourth deck would be nice, to help balance the overall color weight.
Vigorous Valor RGW Samut, Who Leads The Way (Aggro) GW Ajani, Spiritual Leader (Lifegain matters)
Perhaps Samut, since she has become a leader of sorts for the refugees of Naktamun? Lord Windgrace also seems like a viable RGW option, especially for Cat fans who wanted a Naya option last year. Ajani is seen as a leader by a portion of Naya's leonin and nacatl, and if Windgrace is the face card, they could include a Cat subtheme, though like with Vampires, C17 having just done Cat Tribal makes it less likely.
And the fact is, Urza fits WUBRG, while Bolas, who would probably be among the most anticipated PWs to get a CPW, is UBR. Make their decks different from those of last year. If we only get one of the two, it's probably going to be Urza due to demand. Serra is the other most requested PW I've seen, so she's the second most likely after Urza. And of course there's always the chance Wizards will throw us a curveball and introduce someone brand spanking new like they did with Daretti.
And stop putting words on my mouth. "Never" is too long, but after Roon and Brago, plus Venser filling the "flicker Planeswalker" slot, is there even a real need for another Flicker Commander? Your only justification for it seems to be "it's something Azor would do", which only solidifies the point that maybe Azor shouldn't get a PW Commander at all. So, once again, just like Urza, give me a good reason why Azor should get a PW in the first place that it's not "but it would be cool and nostalgic".
I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. I drew a conclusion based off what you said here:
2 of those color combinations are straight out of C17, and I would straight-up murder anyone that decides to make Yet Another Goddamn WU Flicker Commander, so while I enjoy the nostalgia, I would have to say "no thanks".
So take it easy with the fangs, there. I gave a design-based justification for his mechanic focus (which I'm going to elaborate upon in a moment), which is also supported by flavor as the Azorius are known for being excessively controlling; were it not for Theros making flickering a very bad mechanic to have in Standard at the time RTR was out, flickering would likely have been a major tool in Azorius' box, since it would work well with the ETB Detain creatures in that set. Artifacts and angels both also work well with flicker effects, hence why I suggested pairing Azor with either Crucius or Serra.
Azor has design and flavor reasons to justify his getting a CPW in a deck with a flicker/bounce focus or subtheme; what more does he need? On top of that, his skillset wouldn't be purely exile or flicker-focused; it would make sense if he got a -X loyalty Sphinx's Revelation ability to reflect what his legendary creature card has.
What reasons do you have to justify his not getting a CPW with an exiling/flickering ability, other than "I hate WU flicker legends"? And before you accuse me of putting words in your mouth again, your descriptor makes it pretty clear you have it out for that archetype.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
First of all, I ventured the idea of green getting more representation than what I have suggested thus far. If a GU planeswalker, say Kiora, were to get a CPW in C18, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm well aware that last year makes certain color combinations less likely which I spelled out in one of my previous posts:
Which means you're aware that it's not how Wizards do business and you are aware not everyone would be happy with this lineup, but you speculate it's going to be it because that's what you want? That's less "speculation" and more "wishful thinking".
And the fact is, Urza fits WUBRG, while Bolas, who would probably be among the most anticipated PWs to get a CPW, is UBR. Make their decks different from those of last year. If we only get one of the two, it's probably going to be Urza due to demand. Serra is the other most requested PW I've seen, so she's the second most likely after Urza. And of course there's always the chance Wizards will throw us a curveball and introduce someone brand spanking new like they did with Daretti.
Nope, according to MaRo, Serra comes first. Which once again makes sense not only because of Serra's wider appeal due to being tied to Magic's most iconic creature, but because she actually has a defined niche tied to her.
As for Bolas, don't we already have threeBolasPlaneswalkers and a Legendary Creature? And weren't two of these from last year? Yeah, I would like a Bolas Commander that doesn't suck just as any other guy, but do you really think they would print 3 versions of the same guy in less than a year?
What reasons do you have to justify his not getting a CPW with an exiling/flickering ability, other than "I hate WU flicker legends"? And before you accuse me of putting words in your mouth again, your descriptor makes it pretty clear you have it out for that archetype.
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER FLICKER COMMANDER. Roon and Brago already provide whatever a Flicker Deck needs, or even Ephara if you want to build her that way.
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER FLICKER PLANESWALKER. Venser is already a well estabilished character with the same niche.
WE DON'T NEED AN AZOR COMMANDER. Azor just got one, so if you like the character, play the creature, and let another character get a chance in the spotlight.
WE DON'T NEED A COMMANDER DECK TO REPRESENT AZOR. We could get someone like Venser or Vronos, characters that are canonically dead and have an actual zero chance of appearing outside Commander. (And I know Azor wouldn't appear as a Planeswalker, which is still vastly different from the characters that won't appear at all)
DESIGN ISN'T A REASON, IT'S A PREREQUISITE. Having a coherent theme that works well is the bare minimum of any deck, Commander or not. Flicker could just as easily be replaced with a Pillowfort PW to combo with Angel's Lifegain, or straight-up Skies for Flying synergy.
GOOD ENOUGH FLAVOR JUSTIFIES ANYTHING. Especially when, once again, the answer to your flavor woes about Azor-Flicker and its ties to Azorius is just "don't do Azor Planeswalker".
And I don't hate UW Flicker, in fact my one and only Pauper deck is UW Flicker. Doesn't changes the fact we don't need another UW Flicker Commander.
I am pretty sure they are going with Oldwalkers as the Face Characters again. There will be no Kiora or Venser.
Also the fact Venser can flicker is irrelevant unless EDH rules change such that any Walker can be a commander.
This is all 25 Years of Magic and the characters don't have to be alive or currently sparked in the main story to get a Card.
First of all, I ventured the idea of green getting more representation than what I have suggested thus far. If a GU planeswalker, say Kiora, were to get a CPW in C18, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm well aware that last year makes certain color combinations less likely which I spelled out in one of my previous posts:
Which means you're aware that it's not how Wizards do business and you are aware not everyone would be happy with this lineup, but you speculate it's going to be it because that's what you want? That's less "speculation" and more "wishful thinking".
"How Wizards do business" is ultimately something Wizards knows better than any of us. They've done predictable stuff, they've done surprising stuff. If the Commander designers think they have a good idea, they'll do it. A Bolas CPW would definitely excite a lot of fans
A Bolas CPW can justify another UBR deck; there'll be groans and complaints, but that's true of any product. The focus is generating enough excitement to convince fans to buy the product.
And the fact is, Urza fits WUBRG, while Bolas, who would probably be among the most anticipated PWs to get a CPW, is UBR. Make their decks different from those of last year. If we only get one of the two, it's probably going to be Urza due to demand. Serra is the other most requested PW I've seen, so she's the second most likely after Urza. And of course there's always the chance Wizards will throw us a curveball and introduce someone brand spanking new like they did with Daretti.
Nope, according to MaRo, Serra comes first. Which once again makes sense not only because of Serra's wider appeal due to being tied to Magic's most iconic creature, but because she actually has a defined niche tied to her.
Okay then. But if we're looking at color identity and the prospect of PW subcommanders, a monowhite Serra really isn't the best lead when you have to come up with a subcommander that can't lead the current deck; you'd be stuck with Karn, Ugin, or a new colorless PW. Now it's perfectly possible the only new PWs in the whole product will be the face cards, but the use of a plural in the product description makes me think we're getting more than just four; certainly, I expect at this point that each decklist will have multiple planeswalkers in it, to help sell the theme. But if the only CPWs are the face cards, then it's perfectly possible we get monowhite Serra Angels.
As for Bolas, don't we already have threeBolasPlaneswalkers and a Legendary Creature? And weren't two of these from last year? Yeah, I would like a Bolas Commander that doesn't suck just as any other guy, but do you really think they would print 3 versions of the same guy in less than a year?
Again, I'll cede that C17 having a UBR deck makes a dedicated Bolas deck this year a little less likely, combined with the high volume of Bolas cards we've gotten recently. It's perfectly possible my speculation is entirely wrong. Not the end of the world if it is. I was simply enjoying brainstorming, using a lot of what I was reading around here and my knowledge of Magic popularity in general as a guide.
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER FLICKER COMMANDER. Roon and Brago already provide whatever a Flicker Deck needs, or even Ephara if you want to build her that way.
WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER FLICKER PLANESWALKER. Venser is already a well estabilished character with the same niche.
WE DON'T NEED AN AZOR COMMANDER. Azor just got one, so if you like the character, play the creature, and let another character get a chance in the spotlight.
WE DON'T NEED A COMMANDER DECK TO REPRESENT AZOR. We could get someone like Venser or Vronos, characters that are canonically dead and have an actual zero chance of appearing outside Commander. (And I know Azor wouldn't appear as a Planeswalker, which is still vastly different from the characters that won't appear at all)
DESIGN ISN'T A REASON, IT'S A PREREQUISITE. Having a coherent theme that works well is the bare minimum of any deck, Commander or not. Flicker could just as easily be replaced with a Pillowfort PW to combo with Angel's Lifegain, or straight-up Skies for Flying synergy.
GOOD ENOUGH FLAVOR JUSTIFIES ANYTHING. Especially when, once again, the answer to your flavor woes about Azor-Flicker and its ties to Azorius is just "don't do Azor Planeswalker".
And I don't hate UW Flicker, in fact my one and only Pauper deck is UW Flicker. Doesn't changes the fact we don't need another UW Flicker Commander.
And Roon and Brago are the only way to ever do flicker? Now that we have them, the archetype is complete, there's no room for new designs?
And he hasn't been printed since DD:VvK.
I'll acknowledge that Azor is probably too recent of a character to realistically get a card right now. I've just been hearing speculation about Azor getting a CPW due to him being an oldwalker, and the concept sounded intriguing.
We don't need a commander deck to represent anybody. But sometimes having new cards is nice, yeah?
"Design reason" means that an Azor flicker commander would serve a use within the overall design of the product, hence giving it a reason. And yes, pillowfort could compliment ANgels as well. A deck lead by Serra will very likely have that sort of theme, given her protective nature. But if she is in fact a subcom in a multicolor deck, then the Angel theme will find other ways to manifest itself.
That's a weak answer, considering it can be used by opponents to anything. You can give a better reason, like "I think character X would better serve the needs of the product." And considering I have suggested Crucius as a WUB Sphinx planeswalker, that's honestly the best reason I can think of right now not to do an Azor walker as well, to diversify the species and color identity.
Or that you simply don't want one, just like all those times when people groan that they made "Yet another RW Aggro commander" or "Yet another UB Mill commander" or "Yet another UR Instant/sorcery commander". It's almost like those color pairs have mechanical archetypes or something.
And I get that people want color pairs to be about more than one thing; my goal here wasn't to start with a WU flicker commander and match Azor to that role. When I was brainstorming, Azor was a recent example of a character whose planeswalker form we hadn't seem yet, so I included him and looked for mechanical directions that made sense for him. He was associated with imprisoning stuff, so I started with an exile theme which evolved into a flicker theme to play well with other cards. The flicker theme was a consequence of building around the character.
When a character matches the established archetype, I say go with it, and when their personality offers room for a new mechanical angle, like Tiana and the Aura/Equipment focus for RW, then I'm happy to explore novel space as well. Legendary cards should, above all else, be built around the character. If they use Azor, I'm fine with flicker. If they don't use Azor at all, I'm also fine with that.
Neither of us is convincing the other of anything here, as so often happens in almost every debate on forums these days. I think it'd be best if we just agreed to disagree on this one. You don't want Azor or a WU flicker legend at this time, and I'm fine either way.
So, if they do monowhite Serra, what else will they do? What other commanders go in her deck? They always produce at least two new options; how do you make Serra's deck look cool next to the highly-likely-to-be-multicolored decks in the same product? At least one of them is going to be multicolored, that's pretty much a given going forward.
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
"How Wizards do business" is ultimately something Wizards knows better than any of us. They've done predictable stuff, they've done surprising stuff. If the Commander designers think they have a good idea, they'll do it. A Bolas CPW would definitely excite a lot of fans
A Bolas CPW can justify another UBR deck; there'll be groans and complaints, but that's true of any product. The focus is generating enough excitement to convince fans to buy the product.
This is simple pattern recognition, it's not rocket science. Since Commander's inception in 2011, we haven't gotten a single repeat color-wise. They don't do it because it makes sense. No matter how cool Bolas is, people like to play the game due to the gameplay mechanics first place, and game mechanics are tied to colors.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but if we get it, it won't be 2 repeats in the same year, granted.
Okay then. But if we're looking at color identity and the prospect of PW subcommanders, a monowhite Serra really isn't the best lead when you have to come up with a subcommander that can't lead the current deck; you'd be stuck with Karn, Ugin, or a new colorless PW. Now it's perfectly possible the only new PWs in the whole product will be the face cards, but the use of a plural in the product description makes me think we're getting more than just four; certainly, I expect at this point that each decklist will have multiple planeswalkers in it, to help sell the theme. But if the only CPWs are the face cards, then it's perfectly possible we get monowhite Serra Angels.
That I agree with. We don't know how the products are going to be structured yet, but as I mentioned before it's likely they won't put Serra as someone else's second fiddle. A possible solution would be Color Identity - mono-White, but with a U/G symbol somewhere in her textbox to get some extra colors.
And considering I know for a fact that MaRo got some major flak from the community from all the Jace/Gatewatch overexposure effect, I doubt they are stupid enough to try again.
And Roon and Brago are the only way to ever do flicker? Now that we have them, the archetype is complete, there's no room for new designs?
And he hasn't been printed since DD:VvK.
I'll acknowledge that Azor is probably too recent of a character to realistically get a card right now. I've just been hearing speculation about Azor getting a CPW due to him being an oldwalker, and the concept sounded intriguing.
We don't need a commander deck to represent anybody. But sometimes having new cards is nice, yeah?
"Design reason" means that an Azor flicker commander would serve a use within the overall design of the product, hence giving it a reason. And yes, pillowfort could compliment ANgels as well. A deck lead by Serra will very likely have that sort of theme, given her protective nature. But if she is in fact a subcom in a multicolor deck, then the Angel theme will find other ways to manifest itself.
That's a weak answer, considering it can be used by opponents to anything. You can give a better reason, like "I think character X would better serve the needs of the product." And considering I have suggested Crucius as a WUB Sphinx planeswalker, that's honestly the best reason I can think of right now not to do an Azor walker as well, to diversify the species and color identity.
New designs like what? I wouldn't mind a new design if what you described wasn't just Venser with another existing card stapled to it as an ability and a Commander line.
That's because he has a severe case of being dead. Unless they have a very good reason to come back (Elspeth), MaRo made it pretty clear that dead characters will stay dead.
Conceptually, yes, it could be interesting, just like hundreds of other ideas - that's why we have a CaC subforum. What you're suggesting is not the way to do it.
We actually do. Dead characters and characters far gone from MtG's past can only be represented in supplemental products. Azor is alive and could show up again, while literally the only two other UW 'walkers in Magic right now are dead.
Every product needs a design and a purpose. Basically what you're saying is that, by Azor having a design, "it could exist". Which is not good enough - Homunculus Tribal with Fblthp Commander could also theoretically exist, as it has a clear design and a purpose to be. The problem is that the idea of Homunculus Tribal itself is flawed, due to Homunculus having no prior existing support. Your idea of an Azor PWC with Flickering is flawed because it's a rehash of other already estabilished cards and characters.
It's definitely not. Magic is a TCG first and foremost, and its gameplay always comes first. Flavor should never undermine good gameplay. If Thing X isn't very appealing (like, for example, if there's no new interesting design for it or if Thing Y would be just plain better), then flavor should not be considered.
Or that you simply don't want one, just like all those times when people groan that they made "Yet another RW Aggro commander" or "Yet another UB Mill commander" or "Yet another UR Instant/sorcery commander". It's almost like those color pairs have mechanical archetypes or something.
RW Aggro is the only valid complaint - and I don't think anyone would disagree with me here when I say nobody really wants another RW Aggro Commander. The last UB Mill Commander was back in Theros, so that's moot, and UR Spells deals with a whole card type - it has far more design space than "make ETB creatures trigger again".
Either way, agree to disagree sounds fine.
I am pretty sure they are going with Oldwalkers as the Face Characters again. There will be no Kiora or Venser.
Monowhite Serra alone makes any product look good. I want Rebecca Guay commissioned for the art, or else.
Venser as a UW Commander would be a dream for us who love him and are saddened he will not get any new cards outside of such products. This is the perfect time for him to get a card.
Kiora with a Sea Monster EDH deck would be amazing. Arixmethes time. And Thassa reprint.
Urza being a very powerful oldwalker is part of what people expect of the character.
Urza isn't superman, he wasn't even particularly powerful as an oldwalker, It is not WOTC's fault that people get dumb ideas about Urza's power level.
Plus, what you describe could just easily be Tezzeret.
You mean the Blue-centric artifact Planeswalker would have the same effects as the OTHER Blue-Centric Artifact Planeswalker? Urza wasn't a five color superman anymore than Freyalize, Ob Nix, Nahiri, Or Teferi were, infact he was less than the first two in some ways because Ob and Freya actually used their planeswalker powers. Urza was even after 3 thousand years of being a Planeswalker was an Artificier first and no amount of internet BS from the fandom will change that. Like it or not.
No. Urza was literally the most powerful planeswalker who ever lived. This is canon, and there ain't anything you, I, or anyone not working at WotC, can do about it.
Although, personally, I would think that Taysir should hold that title, being literally five people smushed into one. But, whatever.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Could there be planeswalkers with Partner this time around? I'm thinking Partner on planeswalkers can be written as "(This planeswalker can be your commander. You can have two commanders if both have partner.)" This allows multicolor decks to have more CPW options, and fits with the "multiple PWs per deck" theme implied by the product description. Maybe Serra and Feroz could be one such pair?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MTGS Wikia Article about "New World Order"
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
PSA to everyone who keeps forgetting about the Reserved List:
You're on a website dedicated to talking about MtG. You're only a few keystrokes away from finding out what cards are on the Reserved List. You're also only a few keystrokes away from finding out why some cards on the Reserved List got foil printings in FtV, as Judge promos, or whatnot, as well as why that won't happen again. Stop doing this.
I don't know my impression is Partner was overpowered.
Yeah Urza is viewed as the most powerful in canon though direct combat wise. No, Just No. However, again Urza is Batman or Dr. Doom. Give him prep time and he will always win.
I don't know my impression is Partner was overpowered.
Yeah Urza is viewed as the most powerful in canon though direct combat wise. No, Just No. However, again Urza is Batman or Dr. Doom. Give him prep time and he will always win.
No, he literally was the most powerful on account of having two sparks. His own, and Glacian's. If Urza at the height of his power had met Nicol Bolas at the height of his, then Urza would have wiped the floor with the elder dragon.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
I don't know my impression is Partner was overpowered.
Yeah Urza is viewed as the most powerful in canon though direct combat wise. No, Just No. However, again Urza is Batman or Dr. Doom. Give him prep time and he will always win.
No, he literally was the most powerful on account of having two sparks. His own, and Glacian's. If Urza at the height of his power had met Nicol Bolas at the height of his, then Urza would have wiped the floor with the elder dragon.
Radiant dumpstered Urza. And she was just an Angel created by Serra.
Bolas was so powerful he couldn't even manifest on Dominaria without an Anchor or he crack the plane.
Urza was not the strongest Oldwalker in raw power.
I don't know my impression is Partner was overpowered.
Yeah Urza is viewed as the most powerful in canon though direct combat wise. No, Just No. However, again Urza is Batman or Dr. Doom. Give him prep time and he will always win.
No, he literally was the most powerful on account of having two sparks. His own, and Glacian's. If Urza at the height of his power had met Nicol Bolas at the height of his, then Urza would have wiped the floor with the elder dragon.
Radiant dumpstered Urza. And she was just an Angel created by Serra.
Bolas was so powerful he couldn't even manifest on Dominaria without an Anchor or he crack the plane.
Urza was not the strongest Oldwalker in raw power.
WotC disagrees, and their word is Canon.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
They could even do Arzakon. A 5-color planeswalker that was the antagonist of Shandalar. Which means we have Taysir, Arzakon, and Urza for five-color options. Like in order of most to least likely: Arzakon, Taysir, Urza.
Arzakon: Ran a 148 card deck, modernize that and its easily a commander sized deck. Didn't really have any pre-established powers or tricks besides convincing a bunch of mortal mages to grant him power so he could break the barrier on the plane of Shandalar.
Taysir: The only thing holding him back is that he is associated with Rabiah, but that hasn't stopped WOTC from referencing it with other products such as planechase. He is otherwise the same as Arzakon.
Urza: The reason he got an UN-version is because its pretty much impossible to really capture what Urza is like in a single card. Plus any nonsilver card of Urza will have a high probability of failing to meet expectations. The only safe bet is something Artifact related, as if we don't have enough of those already.
Freyalise has done pretty well for herself too, honestly. Turns out a planeswalker that's a disenchant on a stick that makes mana dorks and draws cards is decent for green.
The WUBRG is only suggested because of Urza, though Taysir seems to have some popularity around here as well, and I think Bolas fans could handle a second UBR deck if it meant their favorite Elder Dragon finally got to lead a deck with a decent card. They could include Tezzeret the Schemer, Sarkhan the Mad, and Ral Zarek to represent Bolas' current or former minions.
And what, are they not supposed to make another WU flicker legend, ever? It's just looking for something that suits Azor, and it plays well with many of the Detain creatures from RTR, not to mention in the example I provided would also compliment Serra's Angel theme well with Angels using ETB abilities. Azor, the Lawbringer had abilities based on detain and Sphinx's Revelation, so I'd expect his CPW abilities to be similar. I previously suggested Azor appear in Crucius' deck as a subcom to headline a Sphinx subtheme, in addition to artifacts and control.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
And Urza being the head of an Artificer Deck is in no way more justified than Tezzeret, other than that it fulfills your nostalgic desires. The point is, if you're going to make Urza just a new Tezzeret, why make it Urza? There's a name for nostalgia just for the sake of it - it's called pandering, and demanding to be pandered to is just selfish and childish.
I could see one of the decks being a repeat from C17, but not both. It's simply a fact that different people enjoy some color combinations more than others, reason why color representation is important. So if a friend of mine enjoys, say, UG, which hasn't gotten a deck since 2015's Ezuri, should he just suck it up and buy WUBRG to get his favorite colors while I get another Grixis Commander?
And stop putting words on my mouth. "Never" is too long, but after Roon and Brago, plus Venser filling the "flicker Planeswalker" slot, is there even a real need for another Flicker Commander? Your only justification for it seems to be "it's something Azor would do", which only solidifies the point that maybe Azor shouldn't get a PW Commander at all. So, once again, just like Urza, give me a good reason why Azor should get a PW in the first place that it's not "but it would be cool and nostalgic".
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
First of all, I ventured the idea of green getting more representation than what I have suggested thus far. If a GU planeswalker, say Kiora, were to get a CPW in C18, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm well aware that last year makes certain color combinations less likely which I spelled out in one of my previous posts:
And the fact is, Urza fits WUBRG, while Bolas, who would probably be among the most anticipated PWs to get a CPW, is UBR. Make their decks different from those of last year. If we only get one of the two, it's probably going to be Urza due to demand. Serra is the other most requested PW I've seen, so she's the second most likely after Urza. And of course there's always the chance Wizards will throw us a curveball and introduce someone brand spanking new like they did with Daretti.
I didn't put words in anyone's mouth. I drew a conclusion based off what you said here:
So take it easy with the fangs, there. I gave a design-based justification for his mechanic focus (which I'm going to elaborate upon in a moment), which is also supported by flavor as the Azorius are known for being excessively controlling; were it not for Theros making flickering a very bad mechanic to have in Standard at the time RTR was out, flickering would likely have been a major tool in Azorius' box, since it would work well with the ETB Detain creatures in that set. Artifacts and angels both also work well with flicker effects, hence why I suggested pairing Azor with either Crucius or Serra.
With Crucius, there's the addition of a Sphinx tribal subtheme that you can support with cards like Urza's Incubator, Sandstone Prophet, Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign, Sharding Sphinx, Isperia the Inscrutable, Isperia, Supreme Judge, Medomai the Ageless, Sphinx Summoner, Sphinx Sovereign, Magister Sphinx, Sphinx of the Steel Wind, and Sharuum the Hegemon, further welding together the artifact, control, and Sphinx themes.
And in a deck with Serra that also features Angels, you can support both tribes at once with flying-matters cards like Favorable Winds, Warden of Evos Isle, and Windreader Sphinx. On top of that, you can mix in ETB abilities like Sphinx of Uthuun, Angel of Serenity, Sunblast Angel, and Resolute Archangel.
Azor has design and flavor reasons to justify his getting a CPW in a deck with a flicker/bounce focus or subtheme; what more does he need? On top of that, his skillset wouldn't be purely exile or flicker-focused; it would make sense if he got a -X loyalty Sphinx's Revelation ability to reflect what his legendary creature card has.
What reasons do you have to justify his not getting a CPW with an exiling/flickering ability, other than "I hate WU flicker legends"? And before you accuse me of putting words in your mouth again, your descriptor makes it pretty clear you have it out for that archetype.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Nope, according to MaRo, Serra comes first. Which once again makes sense not only because of Serra's wider appeal due to being tied to Magic's most iconic creature, but because she actually has a defined niche tied to her.
As for Bolas, don't we already have three Bolas Planeswalkers and a Legendary Creature? And weren't two of these from last year? Yeah, I would like a Bolas Commander that doesn't suck just as any other guy, but do you really think they would print 3 versions of the same guy in less than a year?
And I don't hate UW Flicker, in fact my one and only Pauper deck is UW Flicker. Doesn't changes the fact we don't need another UW Flicker Commander.
Also the fact Venser can flicker is irrelevant unless EDH rules change such that any Walker can be a commander.
This is all 25 Years of Magic and the characters don't have to be alive or currently sparked in the main story to get a Card.
"How Wizards do business" is ultimately something Wizards knows better than any of us. They've done predictable stuff, they've done surprising stuff. If the Commander designers think they have a good idea, they'll do it. A Bolas CPW would definitely excite a lot of fans
A Bolas CPW can justify another UBR deck; there'll be groans and complaints, but that's true of any product. The focus is generating enough excitement to convince fans to buy the product.
Okay then. But if we're looking at color identity and the prospect of PW subcommanders, a monowhite Serra really isn't the best lead when you have to come up with a subcommander that can't lead the current deck; you'd be stuck with Karn, Ugin, or a new colorless PW. Now it's perfectly possible the only new PWs in the whole product will be the face cards, but the use of a plural in the product description makes me think we're getting more than just four; certainly, I expect at this point that each decklist will have multiple planeswalkers in it, to help sell the theme. But if the only CPWs are the face cards, then it's perfectly possible we get monowhite Serra Angels.
Yes, I do. It's happened before.
Again, I'll cede that C17 having a UBR deck makes a dedicated Bolas deck this year a little less likely, combined with the high volume of Bolas cards we've gotten recently. It's perfectly possible my speculation is entirely wrong. Not the end of the world if it is. I was simply enjoying brainstorming, using a lot of what I was reading around here and my knowledge of Magic popularity in general as a guide.
Or that you simply don't want one, just like all those times when people groan that they made "Yet another RW Aggro commander" or "Yet another UB Mill commander" or "Yet another UR Instant/sorcery commander". It's almost like those color pairs have mechanical archetypes or something.
And I get that people want color pairs to be about more than one thing; my goal here wasn't to start with a WU flicker commander and match Azor to that role. When I was brainstorming, Azor was a recent example of a character whose planeswalker form we hadn't seem yet, so I included him and looked for mechanical directions that made sense for him. He was associated with imprisoning stuff, so I started with an exile theme which evolved into a flicker theme to play well with other cards. The flicker theme was a consequence of building around the character.
When a character matches the established archetype, I say go with it, and when their personality offers room for a new mechanical angle, like Tiana and the Aura/Equipment focus for RW, then I'm happy to explore novel space as well. Legendary cards should, above all else, be built around the character. If they use Azor, I'm fine with flicker. If they don't use Azor at all, I'm also fine with that.
Neither of us is convincing the other of anything here, as so often happens in almost every debate on forums these days. I think it'd be best if we just agreed to disagree on this one. You don't want Azor or a WU flicker legend at this time, and I'm fine either way.
So, if they do monowhite Serra, what else will they do? What other commanders go in her deck? They always produce at least two new options; how do you make Serra's deck look cool next to the highly-likely-to-be-multicolored decks in the same product? At least one of them is going to be multicolored, that's pretty much a given going forward.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
This is simple pattern recognition, it's not rocket science. Since Commander's inception in 2011, we haven't gotten a single repeat color-wise. They don't do it because it makes sense. No matter how cool Bolas is, people like to play the game due to the gameplay mechanics first place, and game mechanics are tied to colors.
I'm not saying it's impossible, but if we get it, it won't be 2 repeats in the same year, granted.
That I agree with. We don't know how the products are going to be structured yet, but as I mentioned before it's likely they won't put Serra as someone else's second fiddle. A possible solution would be Color Identity - mono-White, but with a U/G symbol somewhere in her textbox to get some extra colors.
And considering I know for a fact that MaRo got some major flak from the community from all the Jace/Gatewatch overexposure effect, I doubt they are stupid enough to try again.
RW Aggro is the only valid complaint - and I don't think anyone would disagree with me here when I say nobody really wants another RW Aggro Commander. The last UB Mill Commander was back in Theros, so that's moot, and UR Spells deals with a whole card type - it has far more design space than "make ETB creatures trigger again".
Uhhhh...
Venser as a UW Commander would be a dream for us who love him and are saddened he will not get any new cards outside of such products. This is the perfect time for him to get a card.
Kiora with a Sea Monster EDH deck would be amazing. Arixmethes time. And Thassa reprint.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
No. Urza was literally the most powerful planeswalker who ever lived. This is canon, and there ain't anything you, I, or anyone not working at WotC, can do about it.
Although, personally, I would think that Taysir should hold that title, being literally five people smushed into one. But, whatever.
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Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
Yeah Urza is viewed as the most powerful in canon though direct combat wise. No, Just No. However, again Urza is Batman or Dr. Doom. Give him prep time and he will always win.
Daretti was no joke, and still isn't in some ways.
Also while I'm an artifact nut, I'd like something that gives enchantments some love for a change, and isn't weaksauce like Daxos the Returned.
I hope Serra does that. Enchantments, Angels, Life Gain, and Some Tokens would make sense for her.
No, he literally was the most powerful on account of having two sparks. His own, and Glacian's. If Urza at the height of his power had met Nicol Bolas at the height of his, then Urza would have wiped the floor with the elder dragon.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Radiant dumpstered Urza. And she was just an Angel created by Serra.
Bolas was so powerful he couldn't even manifest on Dominaria without an Anchor or he crack the plane.
Urza was not the strongest Oldwalker in raw power.
WotC disagrees, and their word is Canon.
---
Numquam evolutioni obstes. Solum conculceris.
Pascite draconem, evolvite aut morimini.
Arzakon: Ran a 148 card deck, modernize that and its easily a commander sized deck. Didn't really have any pre-established powers or tricks besides convincing a bunch of mortal mages to grant him power so he could break the barrier on the plane of Shandalar.
Taysir: The only thing holding him back is that he is associated with Rabiah, but that hasn't stopped WOTC from referencing it with other products such as planechase. He is otherwise the same as Arzakon.
Urza: The reason he got an UN-version is because its pretty much impossible to really capture what Urza is like in a single card. Plus any nonsilver card of Urza will have a high probability of failing to meet expectations. The only safe bet is something Artifact related, as if we don't have enough of those already.
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Yeah they gave Nahiri her spot last time so you expect they dont mess up this time.
I wonder if she will be Mono White or Bant. I suppose they could give her both
|| UW Jace, Vyn's Prodigy UW || UG Kenessos, Priest of Thassa (feat. Arixmethes) UG ||
Cards I still want to see created:
|| Olantin, Lost City || Pavios and Thanasis || Choryu ||
Well lets hope they slap some card advantage and mana ramp on her...White needs all the help it can get on that front.