So we are supposedly going back to the first plain of magic but will we see the original supper tribe their or not.
I was also wandering if we would see the old power house slivers or more of the lack luster corset slivers that in my opinion the old slivers were way better. They effected all card-zones and all slivers. Plus the mirror matches sucked just as much with the new slivers as they did with the old ones and I found it more existing when you had to balance your board vs your opponents in the mirror trying not to give them to much waiting for the first mistake.
What do you think slivers no slivers would you want slivers what would you want if they did do slivers.
Hear is one of my ideas 2R 2/2 all slivers have hast if you control 3 or more slivers all slivers you control get +1/2.
Dominaria is going to have slivers, they will have the old art style but the new ability type. There will be a five color legendary sliver, it will be an expy of the Sliver Queen, but be different enough to not break the reserved list. Slivers will show up in all five colors, in equal amounts (two commons in each color and one common colorless/artifact sliver, one uncommon in each color and one uncommon in each allied color pair, one rare in each color, and one five color mythic), for a total of 27 slivers.
One sliver will grant menace, one will grant trample, one will grant flying, one will grant vigilance, on will grant haste, one will grant hexproof, one will grant double strike, one will grant first strike, one will grant death touch, several will pump in various ways, one will have "All slivers you control have 3: This creature becomes indestructible until end of turn". Multiple slivers will have sacrifice abilities. The colorless/artifact sliver will be vanilla. One sliver will allow your slivers to either tap for or be sacrificed for mana. There will be at least one card that produces sliver tokens.
The set will contain a rare anti-sliver card or a reprint of extinction, but not both.
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Gah, I hope they don't spend 27 slots on slivers, and I highly doubt that they will spend 5 uncommon multicoloured slots on a single tribe. These days, those slots are there to anchor draft archetypes (Unravelling Mummy, Decimator Beetle), so what you are suggesting would imply that 5/10 draft archetypes are based on slivers.
Gah, I hope they don't spend 27 slots on slivers, and I highly doubt that they will spend 5 uncommon multicoloured slots on a single tribe. These days, those slots are there to anchor draft archetypes (Unravelling Mummy, Decimator Beetle), so what you are suggesting would imply that 5/10 draft archetypes are based on slivers.
Slivers by their very nature want more sliver to play with, that means a high as fan, and that means 10 commons, 10 uncommons, 5 rares, and a mythic, plus an artifact creature at either common or uncommon (with common being the more likely. Metallic Sliver reprint, possibly?) to make the tribe draftable and actually good in sealed. Compare with Time Spiral block that had no less than 46 slivers (26 in Time Spiral alone, not counting timeshifted slivers, with timeshifted it is 28). In Tempest block we got 17 total, which was to low for draft, but that wasn't really a thing back then to the extent that it is now, and Onslaught block that gave us 16 (all but one in Legions), which was to few to draft as well, and that had started to become a thing by then. For a tribe to be relevant in sealed, you need a high number of that tribe to maximize the chance that someone who wants to draft/play said tribe will get enough of it to make a viable deck.
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Dominaria is scheduled to be 269 cards. M14, obviously a highly thought-out limited environment, was 249 cards, with 14 Slivers, 5 of which were a rare cycle, and a token-making sorcery.
While I agree with a high "as-fan" for an important draft theme, I'm not certain there will be 20+ Slivers.
As for what abilities we will see, a W Sliver with true Lifelink would make sense.
A B Menace Sliver since there are already 2 in R. We are also missing a true Deathtouch Sliver in B.
I think Flying, First Strike, Trample and Vigilance are rather well covered for the evergreen keywords.
I can see Double Strike in R.
An update on Synapse Sliver would be strong, maybe viable in U/G.
I'm surprised there isn't already a "Whenever a Sliver deals combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it" Sliver, could be new/good in R/G.
White, as king of efficient weenies, a new Blade Sliver as a W 1/1?
Sliver Gravediggers as a 3BB 2/2? U something Sliver with Flash, Hexproof, or Scry?
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I know he thinks I'm impressed by a 102 MPH fastball in the 9th inning... Ok, I'm impressed, but that doesn't mean I can't crush it.
Dominaria is going to have slivers, they will have the old art style but the new ability type. There will be a five color legendary sliver, it will be an expy of the Sliver Queen, but be different enough to not break the reserved list. Slivers will show up in all five colors, in equal amounts (two commons in each color and one common colorless/artifact sliver, one uncommon in each color and one uncommon in each allied color pair, one rare in each color, and one five color mythic), for a total of 27 slivers.
One sliver will grant menace, one will grant trample, one will grant flying, one will grant vigilance, on will grant haste, one will grant hexproof, one will grant double strike, one will grant first strike, one will grant death touch, several will pump in various ways, one will have "All slivers you control have 3: This creature becomes indestructible until end of turn". Multiple slivers will have sacrifice abilities. The colorless/artifact sliver will be vanilla. One sliver will allow your slivers to either tap for or be sacrificed for mana. There will be at least one card that produces sliver tokens.
The set will contain a rare anti-sliver card or a reprint of extinction, but not both.
Um... wow. This is spookily prophetic. Your logic is solid, and I expect at least 70% of these predictions to come true. But most importantly, I hope to all the beans that you're wrong about having the new ability type. Slivers need to buff all slivers, and two sided abilities need to come back. I do think 27 is a high allotment for a single set, and I expect it to be smaller.
Maro has said a number of times on his blog that slivers (and all lord effects) going forward will only affect your side of the board. That's just how it will be, like it or no..
--
Keep in mind that Dominaria has a lot of things to deliver on, a lot of players will be hoping they bring back Thing X from way back. There is no way they're gonna make everyone happy on every front, but I do think they will try to touch on as many things as possible. If they take that approach, they will need to prioritise, and part of that will be to limit Slivers in number and colours.
I think M2014 is a good place to look for what to expect. There are slivers in all colours, but black and blue only gets a single rare each, while the other three colours got two commons, and uncommon and a rare.
So for constructed you can do 5 coloured slivers, but in limited your sliver deck will most likely be within the WRG-shard.
--
EDIT: It's not impossible that they do the slivers evenly in all 5 colours route. But I doubt it. And I sure hope not. I want other things in there too.
Dominaria is scheduled to be 269 cards. M14, obviously a highly thought-out limited environment, was 249 cards, with 14 Slivers, 5 of which were a rare cycle, and a token-making sorcery.
While I agree with a high "as-fan" for an important draft theme, I'm not certain there will be 20+ Slivers.
As for what abilities we will see, a W Sliver with true Lifelink would make sense.
A B Menace Sliver since there are already 2 in R. We are also missing a true Deathtouch Sliver in B.
I think Flying, First Strike, Trample and Vigilance are rather well covered for the evergreen keywords.
I can see Double Strike in R.
An update on Synapse Sliver would be strong, maybe viable in U/G.
I'm surprised there isn't already a "Whenever a Sliver deals combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it" Sliver, could be new/good in R/G.
White, as king of efficient weenies, a new Blade Sliver as a W 1/1?
Sliver Gravediggers as a 3BB 2/2? U something Sliver with Flash, Hexproof, or Scry?
Maro has said a number of times on his blog that slivers (and all lord effects) going forward will only affect your side of the board. That's just how it will be, like it or no..
--
Keep in mind that Dominaria has a lot of things to deliver on, a lot of players will be hoping they bring back Thing X from way back. There is no way they're gonna make everyone happy on every front, but I do think they will try to touch on as many things as possible. If they take that approach, they will need to prioritise, and part of that will be to limit Slivers in number and colours.
I think M2014 is a good place to look for what to expect. There are slivers in all colours, but black and blue only gets a single rare each, while the other three colours got two commons, and uncommon and a rare.
So for constructed you can do 5 coloured slivers, but in limited your sliver deck will most likely be within the WRG-shard.
--
EDIT: It's not impossible that they do the slivers evenly in all 5 colours route. But I doubt it. And I sure hope not. I want other things in there too.
WotC got literally destroyed on social media over how they handled the slivers in M14 (and M15), and not just for the art (which people nearly rioted over), but also for them being undraftable in limited due to the low number of slivers in the set (it was even worse in M15), and because they were unbalanced between the colors. They learned a few very hard lessons because of it.
1. Do not change a creature to look nothing like what has come before, especially if it is a really popular creature type.
2. If you are going to include a tribe that wants to play with other cards of the same tribe, make sure to include enough that people can make a tribal deck in limited.
3. Do not, under any circumstance, limit slivers by color.
Edit: It was basically the three biggest complaints people had regarding them.
I expect them to return with these traits for sure.
- a common cycle, a uncommon cycle, a rare cycle; all in each color.
- a mythic five-color legend.
- only works with your own slivers.
- old art style.
I am hoping that at least 1-4 of the slivers will be modern, pauper, or legacy playable.
For that to happen, it would need to have relevant effects that aren't seen.
Obviously lets look at Legacy and Modern Sliver decks to see where the outs are.
Anthem Lords - Predatory, Sinew, Muscle (legacy and pauper only). I don't think Slivers need more anthem lords, so a reprint with new art of Predatory would make sense or a new sliver lord for limited or standard. Sedge Sliver is a special case providing an additional benefit with a draw back for its lord. This could work, a 3 mana anthem sliver lord that provides an additional benefit. This would primarily be for modern and would be a rare. Options are keywords to varied to make a list. Strongest would probably be Haste, Hexproof, or a Cantrip.
Protection - Diffusion, Hibernation, Hivelord and Crystalline - These are our protection slivers. They protect our slivers. There is not real upgrade for Crystalline and I don't think wizards are going to print a 2 mana hexproof providing lord. Any hexproof lord will most likely be 3 or more and probably not even that cheap judging by previous standards. Hexproof lord will be better for modern and this probably wouldn't be common. Hivelord is to expensive to see anything but a 1 of sideboard.
Utility - There are a lot of utility slivers which I am not going to go over. Some upgrades for Modern and Legacy slivers.
Life - A life sliver either lifelink or ENTERS the battlefield lifegain. We have sacrifce to gain 3 life in Darkheart, but an Enters the battlefield sliver to gain a set amount of life or equal to the slivers on the battlefield like Harmonic if 2 or 3 could replace Syphon and Darkheart Sliver. I cheap common 1 or 2 mana lifelink sliver would also be good for pauper.
Taxes - A Taxing sliver. I think the next 5 color legendary will probably be a taxing sliver. However, I think a cursecatcher/judge's familiar/mauseleum wanderer type effect. Each Sliver gains the ability counters target instant or sorcery unless controller pays (1). I wouldn't also mind a Thalia Sliver. Each Sliver gains the effect of Non-Sliver spells cost (1) more to cast. This would probably an expensive rare, but possible.
Mana - They aren't going to make a better mana dork than Manaweft, but a reprint would be good with new art. I think If they do something a sacrifice mana to gain mana might be interesting or Simian Spirit guide to cast Sliver mana. I would also like to see another version or a reprint of Sliver Hive. They could do a Sliver Banneret as well, just making Slivers cheaper to cast would be interesting for standard.
Card Advantage - The opposite of taxes. A cheaper more playable card draw than Dormant Sliver. I would love a 2 or 3 mana Sliver cantrip similar to Dormant Sliver just without defender. Slivers need a card draw engine. Perhaps even somthing like Sylvan Messenger. I think though it might be more like whenever a sliver enters the battlefield scry 1 or look at the top card of the library and if it is a sliver, you may put it in your hand. OR reveal the top of your library if it is a Sliver spell you may cast it from the top of your library sort of like a Vizier of Menagerie.
Combat tricks - Modern - Cheap flash, cheap trample,
Graveyard - Someway to deal with the graveyard. I am thinking Scavening Ooze, Loaming Shaman, or whenever a sliver enters the battlefield exile target 1, 2, x cards from the graveyard. A recurring sliver would be interesting, but I think broken unless stupid expensive. Another option would homing sliver, but for dead slivers. Slivers can be cast from the graveyard for a turn, gains haste, then exile them.
Kill - There are a couple ways to improve Slivers ability to deal with other creatures outside combat. Necrotic and Cautery are good. However, a Sliver spell that acts as Moonlit Hunt would be interesting as would a Sliver that whenever a sliver enters the battlefield Fight or preferably may fight or deals damage equal to another creature equal to its power or slivers on the battlefield or taps. A sacrifice for damage to target creature without cost could be good.
Slivers can beat other aggro decks, by being the better aggro deck. It can grind out some value, but help wouldn't be bad even though we are pretty good at it. The problem of the sliver tribe is Stack interaction and Graveyard. Slivers can deal with permanents although a non-6 mana fiend hunter varient would be interesting.
I would enjoy a sliver that gave all slivers you control Prowess. One could do fun things with that.
As for Menace, we have one of those already in the form of Two-Headed Sliver. I could totally see a version that only affects your slivers.
A sliver that says "Whenever a sliver enters the battlefield under you control, scry 1" would also be likely.
I wouldn't hold my breath for a sliver with Skulk though, the mechanic has a very shallow design pool, and was not particularly popular either.
I could however see both a "daunting" sliver (can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less), fighting sliver, and "stalking" sliver (can only be blocked by one creature) however.
As for protection, I would be shocked if we upon Slivers return didn't get a "All slivers you control have "2: Indestructible until end of turn."" or hexproof enabling sliver. Probably both.
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It's about time for the reserved list to die, for the sake of Vintage and Legacy (And Commander).
Prowess Sliver would be worthless to me,
as the only Instant/Sorcery in my deck is Primal Surge.
That said, I would be fine if they printed that.
I would also *love* if they printed one that gave every Sliver the ability to sac itself (and maybe pay some mana) to draw a card.
Literally none of the card drawing Slivers give you a choice about drawing,
and including them in a deck built around Primal Surge is very foolish.
I already had to remove Dormant Sliver after accidentally killing myself with it once
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Melek, Izzet Paragon
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Bruna, Light of Alabaster
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
Rhys the Redeemed
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The Mimeoplasm WUBRGSliver OverlordGRBUW WUBRGSliver Hivelord(Superfriends)GRBUW
Maro has said a number of times on his blog that slivers (and all lord effects) going forward will only affect your side of the board. That's just how it will be, like it or no..
--
Keep in mind that Dominaria has a lot of things to deliver on, a lot of players will be hoping they bring back Thing X from way back. There is no way they're gonna make everyone happy on every front, but I do think they will try to touch on as many things as possible. If they take that approach, they will need to prioritise, and part of that will be to limit Slivers in number and colours.
I think M2014 is a good place to look for what to expect. There are slivers in all colours, but black and blue only gets a single rare each, while the other three colours got two commons, and uncommon and a rare.
So for constructed you can do 5 coloured slivers, but in limited your sliver deck will most likely be within the WRG-shard.
--
EDIT: It's not impossible that they do the slivers evenly in all 5 colours route. But I doubt it. And I sure hope not. I want other things in there too.
I'm pretty sure I remember reading a blog post by MaRo that it was NOT the last we had seen of old-style Slivers.
I personally want Infect and Annihilator Slivers, but I'm a sadist and my dreams were meant to be crushed.
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1. Do not change a creature to look nothing like what has come before, especially if it is a really popular creature type.
2. If you are going to include a tribe that wants to play with other cards of the same tribe, make sure to include enough that people can make a tribal deck in limited.
3. Do not, under any circumstance, limit slivers by color.
Edit: It was basically the three biggest complaints people had regarding them.
I didn't catch the 3rd complaint when it was going on, and I feel that by far the biggest complaints were on the new art and on the change from "all slivers" to "slivers you control". So I agree with your #1.
On #2: I don't see why Slivers has to be different from, say, zombies on Amonkhet, where they are firmly in BW and this allows for a Zombie-deck to be viable in limitied even without having the zombies crowd out every other creature type in every colour.
I guess one big trap they created the way they did it in M2014 was that you could open up a rare black sliver P1P1, then open a red sliver P1P2 and think you are well on your way to draft BR slivers, but then you get no more black slivers because that rare you opened was the only black sliver in the set. I could see them not wanting this again, so the "in all colours but draftable only in some" is probably less likely than I initially thought.
Prowess Sliver would be worthless to me,
as the only Instant/Sorcery in my deck is Primal Surge.
That said, I would be fine if they printed that.
I would also *love* if they printed one that gave every Sliver the ability to sac itself (and maybe pay some mana) to draw a card.
Literally none of the card drawing Slivers give you a choice about drawing,
and including them in a deck built around Primal Surge is very foolish.
I already had to remove Dormant Sliver after accidentally killing myself with it once
Mnemonic Sliver, Opaline Sliver, and Synapse Sliver all provide alternative card draw. Mnemonic in particular appears to be what you are looking for, because drawing 30+ cards at a time because you have a Synapse Sliver in play isn't really fun. >.<
1. Do not change a creature to look nothing like what has come before, especially if it is a really popular creature type.
2. If you are going to include a tribe that wants to play with other cards of the same tribe, make sure to include enough that people can make a tribal deck in limited.
3. Do not, under any circumstance, limit slivers by color.
Edit: It was basically the three biggest complaints people had regarding them.
I didn't catch the 3rd complaint when it was going on, and I feel that by far the biggest complaints were on the new art and on the change from "all slivers" to "slivers you control". So I agree with your #1.
On #2: I don't see why Slivers has to be different from, say, zombies on Amonkhet, where they are firmly in BW and this allows for a Zombie-deck to be viable in limitied even without having the zombies crowd out every other creature type in every colour.
I guess one big trap they created the way they did it in M2014 was that you could open up a rare black sliver P1P1, then open a red sliver P1P2 and think you are well on your way to draft BR slivers, but then you get no more black slivers because that rare you opened was the only black sliver in the set. I could see them not wanting this again, so the "in all colours but draftable only in some" is probably less likely than I initially thought.
#3 was a pretty large complaint on social media, second only to the artwork. And it was a complaint precisely because of what you just mentioned. WotC was inundated by complaints from people who had exactly that experience at the pre-release, they opened up either the blue or black rare sliver, and got no more slivers in those colors because they were the only ones in the set. Not a fun experience. It didn't get better when the following core set had even fewer slivers, that clearly should have been in M14, causing WotC to get hammered with complaints again, because slivers, a tribe that is designed to be played together with others of the same tribe, was literally undraftable.
WotC will not make the same mistake twice, and when slivers do return, they'll do so in numbers, and spread equally among the colors.
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I find it hard to believe that #3 was a greater complaint than the change from "all slivers" to "slivers you control", but whatever.
I did some quick googling, and I found that another common complaint and a major hurdle for the sliver deck coming together was that perhaps the key common, Predatory Sliver, was a solid playable in any green deck, so the slivers drafter would just not get them.
I still maintain that to "not make the same mistake twice", does not necessarily mean 25+ slivers spread over all colours. They can fix some of the other issues, limit Slivers to 2-3 colours and Slivers a decent draft strategy. And I hope they go this route.
I find it hard to believe that #3 was a greater complaint than the change from "all slivers" to "slivers you control", but whatever.
I did some quick googling, and I found that another common complaint and a major hurdle for the sliver deck coming together was that perhaps the key common, Predatory Sliver, was a solid playable in any green deck, so the slivers drafter would just not get them.
I still maintain that to "not make the same mistake twice", does not necessarily mean 25+ slivers spread over all colours. They can fix some of the other issues, limit Slivers to 2-3 colours and Slivers a decent draft strategy. And I hope they go this route.
All things considered, the "slives only affect your slivers" complaint was a pretty minor one that pretty much died down when the reasoning (which was solid) was explained to us.
The problem with Predatory Sliver is the same one that has shown up every time slivers have appeared, if there is a sliver that pumps other slivers passively, it is draftable by itself (such as Muscle and Sinew, for example), because it is effectively a better grizzly bears.
And slivers are not going to just show up in a limited number of colors, because it was a major complaint of people. It is the iconic rainbow tribe after all, and limiting it to just a few colors is counter productive. When slivers return, we are going to be getting a rather large number of them.
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Well, agree to disagree I suppose. I still think both 5 and 2/3 colours are possible.
And the draftability of muscle/sinew slivers versus Predatory Sliver is actually directly related to the how the lord-ability works. In the old sets it was a risk to draft a few slivers since you could very well face a sliver deck and your creature would boost their team. With the change from M14 that risk was taken away, and the cards became much harder to get for the sliver-drafters.
I am also wondering if you overestimate the complaints people had about the colours of slivers. As an example, I found nothing on blogatog when I googled sliver+colour/color, but the discussion of the global ability-granting seems to pop up ever so often.
I did however find a direct quote by Maro that there had been loud complaints about the lack of a 5-colour sliver lord, which is why they made one for M15. So I guess if we see slivers it is reasonable to expect a 5 colour lord (And I guess I must concede that a 5-colour lord certainly pulls in the direction of slivers in all colours).
On another note: Do we have any confirmation/indication that slivers will be in Dominaria? Or is it just (reasonable) speculation based on the fact that they were there the last time we visited?
RG slivers was a viable draft archetype in m14. It supported one player a pod, if two went for it then they both ended up with a sub par deck, or they rapidly switched out of it, but it was one of the better archetypes if you were the only one on it. M14 had lots of issues, both with regard to slivers and not, but the slivers being undraftable was not an issue.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
On another note: Do we have any confirmation/indication that slivers will be in Dominaria? Or is it just (reasonable) speculation based on the fact that they were there the last time we visited?
No, we have no confirmation one way or the other regarding what and what will not be in Dominaria, thus speculation. However, Slivers are going to be expected, and WotC knows this. Whether or not they will act on this on the other hand, only time will tell.
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WG2
Tap an untapped sliver you control: Tap target artifact or creature.
2/3
WR
(2) Sacrifice a sliver you control: Deal 3 damage to target creature. Gain 3 life
2/2
UG2
Whenever a sliver deals damage, put a +1 counter on it.
3/3
WU2
Slivers you control have flying. Whenever a sliver you control becomes tapped, you gain 1 life.
2/2
WB4
When this sliver attacks, put a sliver from your graveyard with cost of 3 or less onto the battlefield.
6/6
UR4
You may cast a sliver from your hand for its mana cost. It becomes an instant spell that deals X damage to a target, where X is its casting cost.
6/6
2RR
Whenever a sliver is dealt damage, it deals 2 damage to that source.
2/3
UB2
Slivers you control have Sliver-jitsu for UB2.
2/2
(just kidding..or am I...)
Maro has said a number of times on his blog that slivers (and all lord effects) going forward will only affect your side of the board. That's just how it will be, like it or no..
--
Keep in mind that Dominaria has a lot of things to deliver on, a lot of players will be hoping they bring back Thing X from way back. There is no way they're gonna make everyone happy on every front, but I do think they will try to touch on as many things as possible. If they take that approach, they will need to prioritise, and part of that will be to limit Slivers in number and colours.
I think M2014 is a good place to look for what to expect. There are slivers in all colours, but black and blue only gets a single rare each, while the other three colours got two commons, and uncommon and a rare.
So for constructed you can do 5 coloured slivers, but in limited your sliver deck will most likely be within the WRG-shard.
--
EDIT: It's not impossible that they do the slivers evenly in all 5 colours route. But I doubt it. And I sure hope not. I want other things in there too.
Okay been a while so this might be a bit late on my replies but the M14 and M15 slivers were an example of a failed idea and lazy cookie cuter magic.
The term cookie cuter magic refers to making sugar cookies with the mettle cut outs they all all plain sugar cookies at are all the same so we will put frosting on them so they are each unique but they aren't because they all taste just like crummy sugar cookies that no one likes.
People want butternut or chocolate chip maybe a red velvet you know something enjoyable or unique not an plain sugar cookie.
The hole reason why they made the change was to harmonize things and to fix mirror matches witch was a failure. Plus the magic comunity hatted the new slivers that were just worse versions of the originals.
This is the chance to show some evolution verlent sliver becomes Miasma Sliver. Poison becomes ifect and we give it a relivent activated ablity to pump your livers giving them trample while removing infect and X counters Plus X/x were X is the number of counters. See exciting and unique plus do you really want to give your opponent creatures infect?
The problem with slivers has never been mirror matches as much as redundancy turn 3 I play my haste sliver witch is a 2/2 vs your 2 2/4 and your 1/1. But hay I have a 1/1 first stike and an 1/1 mana dork. Next turn the have an 8/8 trample and you have 4 mana with a 2 2/2 vigilance or another 2/2 haste sliver cards in hand. All of those cards are meaning less.
Hear you work to build a synergistic deck and your reword is a butch of sugar cookie cards. When you could just play good stuff because synergy doesn't matter. Or you gat a had with 3 mana dorks when your have nothing to curve in to and their abilities don't stack. So their bad due to redundancy.
If their ability staked then you could play big flashy spells. But no it doesn't you get no reword for synergy no reason to run more then one sliver, this glaring design flaw was made worse with the m14-m15 slivers that you can tell that their was no play testing really dun. The m15 slivers were to even worse 5/5 that is not a 7/7 while you have the spirit of phrexia that dose the same thing for 6 mana (but better because it is all your creature not just all your sliver)and is a 6/6 trampler for 6 generic mana not WUBRG. Yah agsin kinda a big glaring mistake.
Plus the other garbage is that they took the 5 color tibe and made it naya taking away your ablity to use blue and black a color was also bad. Yah the token black sliver was not funny that joke died with Charley Brown. Plus the blue flyer made for a bad curve. Plus agsin multiple 1/1 creatures in a deck is bad.
Slivers are a 5 color tried so we sould have at least 3 slivers per color plus 1 color less and 4 multi. IF they would spred out the cost and ablites it could work. Again it is the rdundency effect that they need to fix make me want to play out all my sliver don't put dead cards in my had witch is another this he said they woere working to fix dead cards in hand like plains walkers.
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I was also wandering if we would see the old power house slivers or more of the lack luster corset slivers that in my opinion the old slivers were way better. They effected all card-zones and all slivers. Plus the mirror matches sucked just as much with the new slivers as they did with the old ones and I found it more existing when you had to balance your board vs your opponents in the mirror trying not to give them to much waiting for the first mistake.
What do you think slivers no slivers would you want slivers what would you want if they did do slivers.
Hear is one of my ideas 2R 2/2 all slivers have hast if you control 3 or more slivers all slivers you control get +1/2.
What do you think.
One sliver will grant menace, one will grant trample, one will grant flying, one will grant vigilance, on will grant haste, one will grant hexproof, one will grant double strike, one will grant first strike, one will grant death touch, several will pump in various ways, one will have "All slivers you control have 3: This creature becomes indestructible until end of turn". Multiple slivers will have sacrifice abilities. The colorless/artifact sliver will be vanilla. One sliver will allow your slivers to either tap for or be sacrificed for mana. There will be at least one card that produces sliver tokens.
The set will contain a rare anti-sliver card or a reprint of extinction, but not both.
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Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Slivers by their very nature want more sliver to play with, that means a high as fan, and that means 10 commons, 10 uncommons, 5 rares, and a mythic, plus an artifact creature at either common or uncommon (with common being the more likely. Metallic Sliver reprint, possibly?) to make the tribe draftable and actually good in sealed. Compare with Time Spiral block that had no less than 46 slivers (26 in Time Spiral alone, not counting timeshifted slivers, with timeshifted it is 28). In Tempest block we got 17 total, which was to low for draft, but that wasn't really a thing back then to the extent that it is now, and Onslaught block that gave us 16 (all but one in Legions), which was to few to draft as well, and that had started to become a thing by then. For a tribe to be relevant in sealed, you need a high number of that tribe to maximize the chance that someone who wants to draft/play said tribe will get enough of it to make a viable deck.
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While I agree with a high "as-fan" for an important draft theme, I'm not certain there will be 20+ Slivers.
As for what abilities we will see, a W Sliver with true Lifelink would make sense.
A B Menace Sliver since there are already 2 in R. We are also missing a true Deathtouch Sliver in B.
I think Flying, First Strike, Trample and Vigilance are rather well covered for the evergreen keywords.
I can see Double Strike in R.
An update on Synapse Sliver would be strong, maybe viable in U/G.
I'm surprised there isn't already a "Whenever a Sliver deals combat damage, put a +1/+1 counter on it" Sliver, could be new/good in R/G.
White, as king of efficient weenies, a new Blade Sliver as a W 1/1?
Sliver Gravediggers as a 3BB 2/2?
U something Sliver with Flash, Hexproof, or Scry?
Um... wow. This is spookily prophetic. Your logic is solid, and I expect at least 70% of these predictions to come true. But most importantly, I hope to all the beans that you're wrong about having the new ability type. Slivers need to buff all slivers, and two sided abilities need to come back. I do think 27 is a high allotment for a single set, and I expect it to be smaller.
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Keep in mind that Dominaria has a lot of things to deliver on, a lot of players will be hoping they bring back Thing X from way back. There is no way they're gonna make everyone happy on every front, but I do think they will try to touch on as many things as possible. If they take that approach, they will need to prioritise, and part of that will be to limit Slivers in number and colours.
I think M2014 is a good place to look for what to expect. There are slivers in all colours, but black and blue only gets a single rare each, while the other three colours got two commons, and uncommon and a rare.
So for constructed you can do 5 coloured slivers, but in limited your sliver deck will most likely be within the WRG-shard.
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EDIT: It's not impossible that they do the slivers evenly in all 5 colours route. But I doubt it. And I sure hope not. I want other things in there too.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
WotC got literally destroyed on social media over how they handled the slivers in M14 (and M15), and not just for the art (which people nearly rioted over), but also for them being undraftable in limited due to the low number of slivers in the set (it was even worse in M15), and because they were unbalanced between the colors. They learned a few very hard lessons because of it.
1. Do not change a creature to look nothing like what has come before, especially if it is a really popular creature type.
2. If you are going to include a tribe that wants to play with other cards of the same tribe, make sure to include enough that people can make a tribal deck in limited.
3. Do not, under any circumstance, limit slivers by color.
Edit: It was basically the three biggest complaints people had regarding them.
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- a common cycle, a uncommon cycle, a rare cycle; all in each color.
- a mythic five-color legend.
- only works with your own slivers.
- old art style.
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For that to happen, it would need to have relevant effects that aren't seen.
Obviously lets look at Legacy and Modern Sliver decks to see where the outs are.
Anthem Lords - Predatory, Sinew, Muscle (legacy and pauper only). I don't think Slivers need more anthem lords, so a reprint with new art of Predatory would make sense or a new sliver lord for limited or standard. Sedge Sliver is a special case providing an additional benefit with a draw back for its lord. This could work, a 3 mana anthem sliver lord that provides an additional benefit. This would primarily be for modern and would be a rare. Options are keywords to varied to make a list. Strongest would probably be Haste, Hexproof, or a Cantrip.
Protection - Diffusion, Hibernation, Hivelord and Crystalline - These are our protection slivers. They protect our slivers. There is not real upgrade for Crystalline and I don't think wizards are going to print a 2 mana hexproof providing lord. Any hexproof lord will most likely be 3 or more and probably not even that cheap judging by previous standards. Hexproof lord will be better for modern and this probably wouldn't be common. Hivelord is to expensive to see anything but a 1 of sideboard.
Utility - There are a lot of utility slivers which I am not going to go over. Some upgrades for Modern and Legacy slivers.
Life - A life sliver either lifelink or ENTERS the battlefield lifegain. We have sacrifce to gain 3 life in Darkheart, but an Enters the battlefield sliver to gain a set amount of life or equal to the slivers on the battlefield like Harmonic if 2 or 3 could replace Syphon and Darkheart Sliver. I cheap common 1 or 2 mana lifelink sliver would also be good for pauper.
Taxes - A Taxing sliver. I think the next 5 color legendary will probably be a taxing sliver. However, I think a cursecatcher/judge's familiar/mauseleum wanderer type effect. Each Sliver gains the ability counters target instant or sorcery unless controller pays (1). I wouldn't also mind a Thalia Sliver. Each Sliver gains the effect of Non-Sliver spells cost (1) more to cast. This would probably an expensive rare, but possible.
Mana - They aren't going to make a better mana dork than Manaweft, but a reprint would be good with new art. I think If they do something a sacrifice mana to gain mana might be interesting or Simian Spirit guide to cast Sliver mana. I would also like to see another version or a reprint of Sliver Hive. They could do a Sliver Banneret as well, just making Slivers cheaper to cast would be interesting for standard.
Card Advantage - The opposite of taxes. A cheaper more playable card draw than Dormant Sliver. I would love a 2 or 3 mana Sliver cantrip similar to Dormant Sliver just without defender. Slivers need a card draw engine. Perhaps even somthing like Sylvan Messenger. I think though it might be more like whenever a sliver enters the battlefield scry 1 or look at the top card of the library and if it is a sliver, you may put it in your hand. OR reveal the top of your library if it is a Sliver spell you may cast it from the top of your library sort of like a Vizier of Menagerie.
Combat tricks - Modern - Cheap flash, cheap trample,
Graveyard - Someway to deal with the graveyard. I am thinking Scavening Ooze, Loaming Shaman, or whenever a sliver enters the battlefield exile target 1, 2, x cards from the graveyard. A recurring sliver would be interesting, but I think broken unless stupid expensive. Another option would homing sliver, but for dead slivers. Slivers can be cast from the graveyard for a turn, gains haste, then exile them.
Kill - There are a couple ways to improve Slivers ability to deal with other creatures outside combat. Necrotic and Cautery are good. However, a Sliver spell that acts as Moonlit Hunt would be interesting as would a Sliver that whenever a sliver enters the battlefield Fight or preferably may fight or deals damage equal to another creature equal to its power or slivers on the battlefield or taps. A sacrifice for damage to target creature without cost could be good.
Slivers can beat other aggro decks, by being the better aggro deck. It can grind out some value, but help wouldn't be bad even though we are pretty good at it. The problem of the sliver tribe is Stack interaction and Graveyard. Slivers can deal with permanents although a non-6 mana fiend hunter varient would be interesting.
Newish Keywords - Menace, Skulk, Scry, Prowess (but for sliver spells),
As for Menace, we have one of those already in the form of Two-Headed Sliver. I could totally see a version that only affects your slivers.
A sliver that says "Whenever a sliver enters the battlefield under you control, scry 1" would also be likely.
I wouldn't hold my breath for a sliver with Skulk though, the mechanic has a very shallow design pool, and was not particularly popular either.
I could however see both a "daunting" sliver (can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less), fighting sliver, and "stalking" sliver (can only be blocked by one creature) however.
As for protection, I would be shocked if we upon Slivers return didn't get a "All slivers you control have "2: Indestructible until end of turn."" or hexproof enabling sliver. Probably both.
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as the only Instant/Sorcery in my deck is Primal Surge.
That said, I would be fine if they printed that.
I would also *love* if they printed one that gave every Sliver the ability to sac itself (and maybe pay some mana) to draw a card.
Literally none of the card drawing Slivers give you a choice about drawing,
and including them in a deck built around Primal Surge is very foolish.
I already had to remove Dormant Sliver after accidentally killing myself with it once
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I'm pretty sure I remember reading a blog post by MaRo that it was NOT the last we had seen of old-style Slivers.
I personally want Infect and Annihilator Slivers, but I'm a sadist and my dreams were meant to be crushed.
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I didn't catch the 3rd complaint when it was going on, and I feel that by far the biggest complaints were on the new art and on the change from "all slivers" to "slivers you control". So I agree with your #1.
On #2: I don't see why Slivers has to be different from, say, zombies on Amonkhet, where they are firmly in BW and this allows for a Zombie-deck to be viable in limitied even without having the zombies crowd out every other creature type in every colour.
I guess one big trap they created the way they did it in M2014 was that you could open up a rare black sliver P1P1, then open a red sliver P1P2 and think you are well on your way to draft BR slivers, but then you get no more black slivers because that rare you opened was the only black sliver in the set. I could see them not wanting this again, so the "in all colours but draftable only in some" is probably less likely than I initially thought.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Mnemonic Sliver, Opaline Sliver, and Synapse Sliver all provide alternative card draw. Mnemonic in particular appears to be what you are looking for, because drawing 30+ cards at a time because you have a Synapse Sliver in play isn't really fun. >.<
#3 was a pretty large complaint on social media, second only to the artwork. And it was a complaint precisely because of what you just mentioned. WotC was inundated by complaints from people who had exactly that experience at the pre-release, they opened up either the blue or black rare sliver, and got no more slivers in those colors because they were the only ones in the set. Not a fun experience. It didn't get better when the following core set had even fewer slivers, that clearly should have been in M14, causing WotC to get hammered with complaints again, because slivers, a tribe that is designed to be played together with others of the same tribe, was literally undraftable.
WotC will not make the same mistake twice, and when slivers do return, they'll do so in numbers, and spread equally among the colors.
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I did some quick googling, and I found that another common complaint and a major hurdle for the sliver deck coming together was that perhaps the key common, Predatory Sliver, was a solid playable in any green deck, so the slivers drafter would just not get them.
I still maintain that to "not make the same mistake twice", does not necessarily mean 25+ slivers spread over all colours. They can fix some of the other issues, limit Slivers to 2-3 colours and Slivers a decent draft strategy. And I hope they go this route.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
All things considered, the "slives only affect your slivers" complaint was a pretty minor one that pretty much died down when the reasoning (which was solid) was explained to us.
The problem with Predatory Sliver is the same one that has shown up every time slivers have appeared, if there is a sliver that pumps other slivers passively, it is draftable by itself (such as Muscle and Sinew, for example), because it is effectively a better grizzly bears.
And slivers are not going to just show up in a limited number of colors, because it was a major complaint of people. It is the iconic rainbow tribe after all, and limiting it to just a few colors is counter productive. When slivers return, we are going to be getting a rather large number of them.
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And the draftability of muscle/sinew slivers versus Predatory Sliver is actually directly related to the how the lord-ability works. In the old sets it was a risk to draft a few slivers since you could very well face a sliver deck and your creature would boost their team. With the change from M14 that risk was taken away, and the cards became much harder to get for the sliver-drafters.
I am also wondering if you overestimate the complaints people had about the colours of slivers. As an example, I found nothing on blogatog when I googled sliver+colour/color, but the discussion of the global ability-granting seems to pop up ever so often.
I did however find a direct quote by Maro that there had been loud complaints about the lack of a 5-colour sliver lord, which is why they made one for M15. So I guess if we see slivers it is reasonable to expect a 5 colour lord (And I guess I must concede that a 5-colour lord certainly pulls in the direction of slivers in all colours).
On another note: Do we have any confirmation/indication that slivers will be in Dominaria? Or is it just (reasonable) speculation based on the fact that they were there the last time we visited?
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
No, we have no confirmation one way or the other regarding what and what will not be in Dominaria, thus speculation. However, Slivers are going to be expected, and WotC knows this. Whether or not they will act on this on the other hand, only time will tell.
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Tap an untapped sliver you control: Tap target artifact or creature.
2/3
WR
(2) Sacrifice a sliver you control: Deal 3 damage to target creature. Gain 3 life
2/2
UG2
Whenever a sliver deals damage, put a +1 counter on it.
3/3
WU2
Slivers you control have flying. Whenever a sliver you control becomes tapped, you gain 1 life.
2/2
WB4
When this sliver attacks, put a sliver from your graveyard with cost of 3 or less onto the battlefield.
6/6
UR4
You may cast a sliver from your hand for its mana cost. It becomes an instant spell that deals X damage to a target, where X is its casting cost.
6/6
2RR
Whenever a sliver is dealt damage, it deals 2 damage to that source.
2/3
UB2
Slivers you control have Sliver-jitsu for UB2.
2/2
(just kidding..or am I...)
This sounds busted as flaming hell. You just drop this and sack your board for 12-15 damage and insta-win.
Cubetutor Peasant'ish-Funbox
Project: Khans of Tarkir Cube (cubetutor)
Okay been a while so this might be a bit late on my replies but the M14 and M15 slivers were an example of a failed idea and lazy cookie cuter magic.
The term cookie cuter magic refers to making sugar cookies with the mettle cut outs they all all plain sugar cookies at are all the same so we will put frosting on them so they are each unique but they aren't because they all taste just like crummy sugar cookies that no one likes.
People want butternut or chocolate chip maybe a red velvet you know something enjoyable or unique not an plain sugar cookie.
The hole reason why they made the change was to harmonize things and to fix mirror matches witch was a failure. Plus the magic comunity hatted the new slivers that were just worse versions of the originals.
This is the chance to show some evolution verlent sliver becomes Miasma Sliver. Poison becomes ifect and we give it a relivent activated ablity to pump your livers giving them trample while removing infect and X counters Plus X/x were X is the number of counters. See exciting and unique plus do you really want to give your opponent creatures infect?
The problem with slivers has never been mirror matches as much as redundancy turn 3 I play my haste sliver witch is a 2/2 vs your 2 2/4 and your 1/1. But hay I have a 1/1 first stike and an 1/1 mana dork. Next turn the have an 8/8 trample and you have 4 mana with a 2 2/2 vigilance or another 2/2 haste sliver cards in hand. All of those cards are meaning less.
Hear you work to build a synergistic deck and your reword is a butch of sugar cookie cards. When you could just play good stuff because synergy doesn't matter. Or you gat a had with 3 mana dorks when your have nothing to curve in to and their abilities don't stack. So their bad due to redundancy.
If their ability staked then you could play big flashy spells. But no it doesn't you get no reword for synergy no reason to run more then one sliver, this glaring design flaw was made worse with the m14-m15 slivers that you can tell that their was no play testing really dun. The m15 slivers were to even worse 5/5 that is not a 7/7 while you have the spirit of phrexia that dose the same thing for 6 mana (but better because it is all your creature not just all your sliver)and is a 6/6 trampler for 6 generic mana not WUBRG. Yah agsin kinda a big glaring mistake.
Plus the other garbage is that they took the 5 color tibe and made it naya taking away your ablity to use blue and black a color was also bad. Yah the token black sliver was not funny that joke died with Charley Brown. Plus the blue flyer made for a bad curve. Plus agsin multiple 1/1 creatures in a deck is bad.
Slivers are a 5 color tried so we sould have at least 3 slivers per color plus 1 color less and 4 multi. IF they would spred out the cost and ablites it could work. Again it is the rdundency effect that they need to fix make me want to play out all my sliver don't put dead cards in my had witch is another this he said they woere working to fix dead cards in hand like plains walkers.